User talk:Guitar hero on the roof

December 2012

Hello, I'm Jim1138. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Nevel (instrument), but you didn't provide a source. I’ve removed it for now, but if you’d like to include a citation to a reliable source and re-add it, please do so! If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks, Jim1138 (talk) 10:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Welcome

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Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! We appreciate encyclopedic contributions, but some of your recent edits do not conform to our policies. For more information on this, see Wikipedia's policies on vandalism and limits on acceptable additions. If you'd like to experiment with the wiki's syntax, please do so in the "sandbox" rather than in articles.

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Kinnor

Please make sure to source your content. Also, please check your work. You are letting spelling error thorugh. Thank you Jim1138 (talk) 10:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I will read about how to do the source thing now. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 10:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

"Jews"

I saw your message regarding "choosing" to be Jewish. Are you saying that in regard to what I wrote about the holocaust? If so, I don't see how it matters - They were viewed as Jews, despite the fact that not all of them believed in Judaism, or considered themselves members of the Jewish people - They were murdered because they were viewed as such, not because of their personal views on the ethnoreligious decision whether to be Jewish or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottyNolan (talk • contribs) 15:43, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Jewish Ethnicity

Hi. Just to let you know, this is not a complaint in any way, shape or form. I just wanted to point out how much people are all over the place on the idea of Jewish ethnicity. I am Jewish, and much of my father's family was killed by the Nazis. As you know, the Nazis (notice, Nazi does not equal German) considered the Jews an inferior ethnic group at the time. So, I have always found calling Jews an ethnic group something that is only meaningful to anti-Semites and so thoroughly dislike it. Germans saying this may very well be the exact opposite of Holocaust denial. They killed people over a false enthnicity. Jewish ethnicity is essentially in the same group(s) as the Arabs, Turks, Armenians and Persians as I understand it, with most now more heavily European through intermarriage and other less friendly things. Plus, you can be a Jew and have 0% so-called Jewish ethnicity (conversion, adoption, etc). So, as you can see, some consider the idea of Jews as an ethnic group a pro-Nazi expression (I know I am not alone). I was amazed when I found other Jews considering it to be 180-degrees the other way. Again, not complaining, but just explaining how the same issue can be taken multiple ways.Sposer (talk) 19:28, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Genetic prooves show we are an ethnic group. It’s a fact. The problem with the Nazis was not that they pointed out we are an ethnic group but the fact they wanted to kill us. I understand your position, but think about it, saying we are not an ethnic group it’s what plays into the hands of the anti-Semites who are trying to say w have no right for Israel. The fact is, genetically we are different, we are a Semitic nation with our own languages and our own culture and that’s nothing we need to hide or be ashamed off. Being afraid to admit we are an ethnicity out of fear of the Nazis just plays into their hands. We should just be proud of what we are. All ethnic groups, all minorities should be able to express themselves without fear of persecution.

That the thing, it's not a matter of how you feel about it. If someone converted to Judaism they are Jews by religion, but ethnically they are not. But if an ethnic Jew converts to christianity he is still ethnically Jewish because you don't change your genes by conversion. Jews arean ethnoreligios group, which means an ethnic group formed around a religion. You can take it as a religion or as an ethnicity, you can be one without the other. Einstein considered himself a Jew on an ethnic level but on a religios level he had nothning to do with Judaism and his views are a mixture between Deistic and Agnostic views, and it has nothing to do with his ethnicity. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I know that many Jews are Jews ethnically, and others are not. I understand, but disagree on the Nazi point, but that is an opinion. I am proud that I am a Jew, but do not care whether I am an ethnic jew. I do not care either way of why I am a Jew. There is a Jewish ethnic group and the religion of the ethnic group can vary. I guess that is what Evildoer says. The American Jew article and what most people consider a Jew requires ethnicity and not another religion the way it is presented. The ethnic jew is a scientific explanation - a taxonomy. A Jew is a combination and requires some sort of tie to the religion. And at least culturally, Einstein was a Jew. If he had considered himself another religion, he would not be a Jew. Bobby Fisher did not die as a Jew (but he did die as a jew).Sposer (talk) 10:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

But that's exactly the point that it's not an opinion but a fact that the Jews are an ethnic group and a religion and those identities don't have to match. The Jews have their own genes which come from the middle east, the Jews before assimilation maintained their own languages and culture and even after assimilation most of them still married Jews to keep the future generations Jewish. I don’t consider myself a Jew by religion and I don’t care if my descendants are Jewish or no, but the fact is, Jews are an ethnic group , and weather it’s important or no, it’s a fact. I also don’t think it’s important if a person is a Jew or not, what matters is the human being and not what his genes are.

Bobby Fisher hated the fact he’s A Jew, but the fact is, ethnically he was Jewish and there’s nothing he could do about it because it’s his genes. I feel sorry for him because I don’t think he was a bad guy, I think the pressure on him damaged him mentally and I don’t think he had it under control. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 12:01, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually do not disagree with anything you are saying. Being a jew (ethnically) and being a Jew according to one's religion need not overlap at all. My personal definition is irrelevant and unimportant. You are no less a Jew, regardless of your ethnicity, if you follow the religion. However, an ethnic jew is not a Jew if they follow another religion. The point I am making is there is no required overlap. That is all. No value judgement anywhere. Interesting conversation. Thanks. (Also, do not take any positive or negative meaning out of my capitalization. I do that because I always capitalize religions.) Take care. Sposer (talk) 14:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

That's actually the interesting part. Usually a Jew who changes a religion doesnt want to be a Jew and wants to be totally assimilated, by in fact ethnically this person is still Jewish because his genes didn't change. For example the siger Billy Joel. His family converted to Christianity, but c'mmon, just look at the guy and how he plays the piano :-) But really, ethnically he's still a Jew because his genes are Jewish. If he is married to a non Jew, his child is still half Jewish. I enjpyed the conversation to! That's the thing about ethnoreligious group, they do have some difficulties with defenitions sometimes. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 15:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war (removing established content); according to the reverts you have made on Austrians. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. --IIIraute (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

About the Germans article talk page

I just came across the long discussion on Germans talk page, I didn't comment there yet but I will probably later. I am posting here because your edits seem to be very problematic in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia - deciding what certain groups of people are or are not, and that you think you know for sure what "The Jews" really are or are not (that a Jew cannot be German for example) and everyone else is wrong - are matters of your own opinions, not facts. I with you on Einstein because he had a strong Jewish identity, it makes more sense for him to be included on Ashkenazi Jews page than on Germans page. But to say that someone like Karl Marx, who probably didn't have any Jewish identity at all, shouldn't be on the infobox because of his "genes" is something one writes in a message board opinion piece, not in Wikipedia. For example, if some historian will claim tomorrow that he has found that all of Marxs' forebears were German converts to Judaism, what then will you say? "Oh, sorry, I was wrong then, he can be included in German ethnicity article"? Not that I think it's a possibility, but will you then realize that there's no specific gene that makes someone German or Jewish or Bulgarian and so on? Yuvn86 (talk) 22:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I never said a Jew can be German. A Jew can be British, Russian, Israeli, anything, that’s a matter of nationality. But a person who is an ethnic Jew is not an ethnic German unless one parent is a Jew and another is a German simply because Jews are a separate ethnic group. That’s all. The problem in the discussion there is that they claim that German Jews are ethnic Germans of Jewish religion, which is not the case. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a fact, Jews are an ethnic group weather they like it or not. Go to the Jews article and read the section about genetics, go to a similar one in the Germans article. People come from certain origins and have certain genes which are part of their identity, which is normal. Not everyone has the same genes, which is good otherwise the world would be less interesting. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 07:48, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, not everyone has the same genes - and there's no specific gene that makes someone a German. So on what basis do you believe Marx cannot be considered German if he was assimilated and considered himself such? You think all ethnic Germans are really 100% of ancient Germanic tribes? Don't you see a problem if Wikipedia starts going by "ethnic purity" on such articles? Yuvn86 (talk) 15:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Einstein never considered himself German, he always said he is a Jew, there were many quotes brought there and even some of the German editors agreed that Einstein should be removed (though expressing a different opinion earlier). I don't think all Germans are 100% German, just like I don't think Jews are 100% Semitic, but the fact is, if a person has Jewish parents, Jewish grandparents and his ancestors as far as we know married Jewish people (I wonder why?), then this person is ethnically Jewish. There were always censuses and one of the questions was ethnicity, and in all censuses in Germany a certain amount of the population stated they were Jewish, and they have this question in censuses to this day. People have different ethnicities. If Marx would have 1 great-grandfather we know of who would be ethically German I would say sure put him in, but unless we have proof for that it's specilations. As far as we know Einstein and Marx were ethnically Jewish. Sure, they probably had some non Jewish genes, but were they Slavic? Germanic? Did it play a role in their identity? As far as we know they were Jews. Tony Blair was Scottish, but how do we know he didn't have English genes? Maybe he did, especially because some Anglo-Saxons actually settled in the area he lived in, but no one says he is of English ethnicity because as far as we know he is of Scottish ethnicity, and no one says it's racism if you say he's Scottish and not English, because it's effect, as long as no one says he's not British because he's not English, because that is already racism. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 16:32, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

So in other words, "blood purity" is very important in your edits. Well, this is 2013 and not 1930's you know. Nothing made Marx Jewish except for maybe a chromosome that goes back to biblical Jews 2,000 years ago, and that's it. To insist he couldn't be a true German because of that is a creepy matter of opinion, not fact. And for the record, I'm of Jewish background too, like you, I am not a German who writes this because he feels gulity for the Holocaust or anything. Yuvn86 (talk) 15:03, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Reading your comment looks like you wrote what you have to say even before you read my answer. I said "blood purity" doenst exist, but ethnicity depends on what a person sees himself and on what his family saw itself through the years. What do you mean by "true German"? Your genes don't prevent you from being a German citizen. But if you call a "true German" in the ethnic sense (though now the racism comes from you, so a German citizen is not a true German?), then yes, you can't be ethnically German if you are not ethnically German. Guitar hero on the roof (talk) 18:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013

Hello. It appears that you have been canvassing—leaving messages on biased users' talk pages to notify them of an ongoing community decision, debate, or vote—in order to influence Talk:Germans. While friendly notices are allowed, they should be limited and nonpartisan in distribution and should reflect a neutral point of view. Please do not post notices which are indiscriminately cross-posted, which espouse a certain point of view or side of a debate, or which are selectively sent only to those who are believed to hold the same opinion as you. Remember to respect Wikipedia's principle of consensus-building by allowing decisions to reflect the prevailing opinion among the community at large. Your canvassing was about as blatant, biased, and one-sided as it can get. Do this again and you will be blocked. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Guitar hero on the roof. You have new messages at Malik Shabazz's talk page.
Message added 06:29, 10 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Germans TP

Listen, I don't know what you try to do-but please don't ever touch my comments. Please restore them all on the TP. If you fail to do that I will open an AN/I case against you. I'm getting the impression that your calling to me to participate in this discussion is not a coincidence -did you have any other username on Wikipedia and did we ever got to contact of any kind on Wikipedia? --Gilisa (talk) 17:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)