Talk:Croatian Wikipedia

This article was nominated for deletion on February 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

2013 controversy

Dispute resolution will begin in 5, 4, 3, ... or I'm handing out free instant WP:ARBMAC blocks to absolutely everyone involved. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:08, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not dispute, this is vandalism done by editor IvanOS. He delete whole section covered by sources just because he do not like it. Such behavior should be sanctioned, especially when we consider continuity of inappropriate actions of that editor.--MirkoS18 (talk) 18:20, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't condone censoring, but you don't have to be a wizard to see the need to reassess the tone and weight of this new section against WP:NOTNEWS and WP:ATTACK. There's not a shred of doubt in my mind that the same people who started this whole complaint festival on Facebook posted the same here as a means to further this outside conflict, which is ever so clearly a violation of decorum. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

If you think someone has done something contrary to the Wikipedia rules or immoral you should definitely take steps against those editors since you are administrator and it is your "duty". However, you should not equate editors that make constructive changes (agree with their views or not), and examples of ruthless censorship. If you and IvanOS have justified doubts about whole scandal around Croatian Wikipedia you should work on that (write to other administrators or I don't know). I apologize that I compare your and IvanOS work, but here you are biased. I do not have a lot of information about whole scandal, but objections against Croatian Wikipedia seems valid to me, and your suspicion of "conspiracy" looks somewhat paranoid. Even if you believe that there is some conspiracy behind this scandal I don't think you have any evidence that user Kolega2357 is part of that. So, until otherwise proven, you should make decisions based only on what you know and see-and that are those users edits on this article.--MirkoS18 (talk) 19:38, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not biased, I'm calling it as I see it. I've been aware of these hr: wiki-related feuds for a while now, and I have personally been on the receiving end of abuse of one of the implicated editors in the past over here. None of this changes the simple fact that some anonymous people generated an online controversy and then immediately latched onto whatever media coverage of it in order to promote the same controversy on Wikipedia. This is exactly why we have the policy that Wikipedia is not a newspaper. The fact that these kinds of shenanigans happen all too often in this topic area is exactly why the Macedonia arbitration case resulted in such harsh rules being imposed on it. Administrators who apply these rules aren't biased because they do, on the contrary, they're doing it to make sure the encyclopedia follows the letter and spirit of the neutrality and other policies. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

@Joy: Be that as it may, a Wikipedia Project received coverage and ended up on the front page of a country's biggest newspaper - and for all the wrong reasons. This does not happen every day and it sounds like it merits some sort of inclusion. Btw I see IP edit warring continued. Timbouctou (talk) 19:51, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and that's another piece of puffery that was a clear red flag - Jutarnji is not the biggest newspaper in Croatia, according to referenced information right here on en:, it's third largest. Using these kinds of terms to promote a source in the first place is in itself a sign that the editor has an axe to grind. Again, I'm not saying that the issue does not merit inclusion, but the way it's included now does not rise to the challenge, and edit warring over it is plain wrong. I applied semi-protection and blocks. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

User:SpeedyGonsales, this edit is still entirely biased, merely in the other direction. Because I understand you were the target of these articles, and you didn't edit here before since this started, I'm not going to immediately follow through with my earlier warning - but please do fix this. User:BokicaK, you too. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

What about me? I haven't edited the article prior to his contribution. -- Bojan  Talk  09:54, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Joy, can you point out what exactly needs to be fixed?-В и к и T 11:00, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I thought I already did. The sources that describe this incident are hardly even trying to be neutral themselves, one of the three in there now isn't even signed (h-alter), and the Jutarnji one is making various exceptional claims involving living people while explicitly attributing them to anonymous sources. That's just not encyclopedic coverage. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no requirement for our sources to be neutral. Guardian and New York Times are clearly liberal/left-leaning newspapers, and everyone knows that. Similarly, Fox News and Daily Mail are clearly conservative/right-leaning, and everyone knows that. Sources used on Wikipedia don't have to be neutral, but our presentation of what the sources say must be neutral. Do you have any objections to current phrasing in the "Controversies" section?--В и к и T 09:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

So, my contribution to the article was reverted, and I'm wondering why, since I tried to assume a neutral POV... Anyone care to elaborate? Maybe my attempt to diffuse the situation belongs to the talk page?: "

The issue itself is prooving to be quite difficult to handle, due to the administrators of the Wikipedia being the ones in charge. Since Wikipedia is a non-profit organisation with no "higher-ups" except for the administrators, there is no way to turn Croatian Wikipedia into what is should be - a non-biased internet encyclopedia which equally and fairly states both sides of the argument, glorifying and demonising neither. There are people in Croatia willing to make Wikipedia a reliable source of information, especially since in recent years more and more students have been using it for school projects, and due to the right-wing bias, a lot of young people have adopted right-wing nationalist sentiment, all too visible in Croatia nowadays, and the conflict between the left- and right-wing sentimentalists seems to have continued from World War II, when it's high time to forget the past and move on to a brighter future.

" What I have written is true, and if anyone claims otherwise, (s)he is lying. I live in Croatia and I know the state of things here. Therefore, I would like to know why my edit was reverted, with the explanation of "good faith", because when I clicked the wikipedia good faith (here), it said that many new contributors believe they write in good faith when they don't, but I honestly can't see why the aforementioned section wouldn't count as "good faith". Looking forward to hearing a response. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 11:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Your contribution is original research, please see WP:NOR.--В и к и T 11:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

So, how should I write this if I myself know a bunch of my peers (a majority, in fact) who are extremely nationalist? Here are some sources (a lot of my peers and other people listen to Marko Perkovic Thompson, a singer on whose concerts Ustaše insignia are a regular sight, regardless of whether or not he says he approves or disapproves of this, I'm talking about the people listening to his music, his fanbase, not the singer himself):

Sources:

• http://dnevnik.hr/showbizz/glazba/koncert-u-cavoglavama-100-000-ljudi-ustasko-znakovlje-i-napad-na-novinare.html

Pitamo se što je radila hrvatska policija dok su određeni pojedinci prilikom proslave jednog od najvećih državnih blagadana u Čavoglavama javno veličali ustaštvo. Sramotna je i činjenica da je napadnuta i jedna novinarska ekipa. To je naprosto nedopustivo i za svaku osudu. (We're wondering what the Croatian police was doing while certain individuals during the celebration of one of the greatest state holidays in Čavoglave were publically worshipping the Ustaše regime. Also shameful is the fact that a news team was assaulted. It's simply unacceptable and deserves every condemnation.)

• http://dnevnik.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/ustasko-znakovlje-sve-vise-onih-koji-ga-nose-ni-ne-znaju-sto-simbolizira.html

Zabrinjava, tvrde stručnjaci, što ih nose sve mlađi koji uopće nisu svjesni što to ustvari simbolizira. Za jedne marginalni problemi, za druge osuda. No, policija nikog nije privela. Svaki put ista priča, ustaške kape, majice s parolama, znakovlje i ikonogorafija na razmahanoj masi. Policija kaže da nije ništa vidjela (...) Gledali su kažu i štandove, ali rakiju s likom Ante Pavelića očito su primijetili svi osim plavaca. (...) Da stvar bude gora, u posljednje vrijeme u takvim incidentima sve su mlađi i mlađi. Koji gotovo ni ne znaju što nose na sebi i kakve zločine opravdavaju. (It's worrysome that, claim the experts, even younger people are starting to wear them, people who aren't at all aware what it actually signifies. For some those are marginal issues, for others it's worth condemning. However, the police hasn't detained anyone. Every time it's the same story, Ustaše hats, shirts with mottos, insignia and iconography on the swinging mob. The police says they haven't seen anything. (...) They claim they were watching the booths, but it seems just about everyone except for them saw the rakia with the image of Ante Pavelić.(...)To make matters worse, lately in such incidents younger and younger people are involved. Those who almost don't even know what they're wearing and what crimes they're justifying.)

• http://www.vecernji.hr/sport/vijesti/hho-navijace-je-ujedinio-samo-poklic-za-dom-spremni-clanak-451130

Jedino što je ujedinilo gledatelje, osim povremene snažne podrške nacionalnoj momčadi i radosti zbog postignutog zgoditka, je zajedničko skandiranje (u 61. minuti), fašističkog poklika za dom - spremni, što je bio službeni pozdrav u vrijeme Pavelićeva fašističkog ustaškog režima, a postao je uobičajena pojava na nogometnim utakmicama hrvatske nogometne vrste.

(The only thing which unified the spectators, accept from the occasional strong support for the national team and the joy for the scored goal, was the common chant (in the 61st minute) of a fascist cheer "for home - ready", which was the official greeting during Pavelić's fascist Ustaše regime, and which has become a regular occurence on the football matches in Croatia.)

• http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/Hrvatska/tabid/66/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/12846/Default.aspx (interview with the current Croatian PM)

Taj koncert bio je štetan i na Thompsonovim koncertima uvijek se događaju štetne stvari, a on bi, kada vidi ustaško znakovlje, trebao prestati pjevati. Ali od toga nikada neće biti ništa.

(That [Thompson's] concert was detrimental and there are always bad things happening on Thompson's concerts, and he should, when he sees Ustaše insignia, stop singing. But that's never going to happen.)

Enough sources for you? --Tvrtko26 (talk) 12:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Tvrtko, this is not an article on Far right in Croatia, and this talk page is not a forum. Please just stick with what is directly relevant for the Croatian Wikipedia. Timbouctou (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I perfectly understand that. I simply meant to state that a lot of admins on Croatian Wikipedia possess far-right ideologies, and that (hopefully not through the influence of Wikipedia here) this ideology seeped into a major portion of the society here. Myself, I'm neither left-wing, nor right-wing, I only believe that glorifying crimes on any side is wrong, and that is what is happening on the Croatian Wikipedia and this nationalism and commending of fascist (basically Nazi) regime is why many of the admins from Croatian Wikipedia have been banned on German Wikipedia. Cheers. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 13:30, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's see...

1. Is there a controversy over Croatian Wikipedia?

   Various media are reporting about the complaints against right-wing bias on the Croatian Wikipedia. Whether those complaints are justified and there is right-wing bias is irrelevant when trying to establish whether there is a controversy. Media are reporting over those complaints, so there is certainly a controversy of some kind.

2. Do those sources have left-wing bias?

   If voicing alert against the right-wing bias constitutes the left-wing bias, as many right-wing biased people would like to define, then yes. However, such definition would be either inherently have right-wing bias, or voicing alert against any kind of bias would be another, opposite kind of bias. This wouldn't make any sense.

   So, let's see what do they actually say:

   1. They report over rise of complaints. Complaints had indeed risen, so there should be no problem in this part.
   2. They report some examples of the complaints. This should be also unproblematic, because they don't make up the complaints, they only report what has been said.
   3. They present comparisons of articles on Croatian Wikipedia and English Wikipedia. Quick glance over those article (unfortunately, only for people who understand Croatian) reveals that comparison is fair in sense that reported content is really there.

   So, there doesn't seem to be any bias in the reports by the cited sources.

3. Does the section about the controversy have the left-wing bias?

   This section could do with couple of copyedits in order to improve the style and grammar. Also, in addition to yesterday, some new articles have been published today (on 12 September), so maybe there could be also some expansion and organization of the content into the paragraphs of appropriate size. But this has nothing to to with the alleged left-wing bias, so let's get to the point.

   The section seems to be reporting, more or less, what has been reported by the media. Maybe it is not clear enough that it is more about the complaints about the right-wing bias and not about the right-wing bias itself. Other than that, there seems to be no real issues.

   After the quick glance at the edit history it is clear that there has been and edit war, mostly reverts, as some people misinterpreted this section (and the cited sources) as some kind of "attack" on the Croatian Wikipedia. It is interesting that some of them almost openly indirectly admit having right-wing bias, and some of them might have been in the conflict of interest because they are part of the administration on the Croatian Wikipedia or have close ties with it.

In conclusion, the existence of the questionable section seems to be clearly justified, cited sources also seems to be alright and neutrality of the section is more or less okay, only it could do with some copyediting for grammar, style, expansion and clarification for improvement of the neutrality. --93.142.240.75 (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Croatian Ministry of Science and Education calls students NOT to use Croatian Wikipedia

Željko Jovanović, Minister of Science and Education of Croatia, has called students today not to use Croatian Wikipedia. Minister described it as "not only biased but falsified" and "usruped by far-right activists", he also adviced people to use neutral projects like English Wikipedia. Well done Croatian administrators! --109.60.5.154 (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2013 (UTC)