Talk:Turkey

This article caters to an ethnocentric POV

After reading and rereading this article, I have made the conclusion that the article caters to a Turkish ethnocentric POV. Some examples of this include:

• The only architects mentioned are ethnic Turks
• The only novelists, poets, and writers featured in the article are ethnic Turks
• The only painters are ethnic Turks
• The architecture section lists only mosques and palaces of Ottoman sultans

As of now, this is all that I have uncovered. From my view, the article appears to be Turkified all over since, from the looks of it, it appears that only Turks receive mention in this article and that the only people that have made contributions to the society of the country are ethnic Turks. It is unfortunate to see that non-Turkish minorities, such as the Armenians, Kurds, and Greeks, have been left in the dust. Lest we forget, that the first novel written in Turkey was by an Armenian, Vartan Pasha. The first sculptors in Turkey, both male and female, were Armenians. It is almost absurd to see no mention of the renowned Armenian Balyan family who designed the Dolmabahçe, Çırağan, Feriye, Beylerbeyi, Küçüksu, Ihlamur and Yıldız palaces. What is even more concerning is that all these buildings are mentioned in the article without a mere mention of who designed them. Mosques, even those built by Armenians and Greeks, are the only religious building specifically mentioned. Are there no churches in Turkey? On what basis is the Sumela Monastery or the Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross not worthy enough to be mentioned?

My list of concerns raised in the paragraph above are the most relevant to the article, but it can go on and on...

If there's not going to be a more accommodating approach towards the country's non-Turkish minorities, I will have to place a POV tag on the article. The article quite a few months ago had a more accommodating approach this regard ([1]). However, this approach has been severely deteriorated due to the mass amount of edits by various users since then (some of which have been banned/blocked for misconduct and POV editing). If there are not objections in the matter of 24 hours, I will place the POV tag accordingly. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Rather than jumping straight to tagging, what specifically from the previous version do you think should be added here, and if it applies what do you feel that is in the current article that is undue in prominence? All the issues you point to seem to be in the culture section, which frankly could use a pruning of its uninformative lists in favour of the general overview. CMD (talk) 20:43, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Article should be improved indeed. Turks consist 70% of modern Turkey, (in Ottoman Empire, the figure might be like 50%) this figure makes minorities important to mention (not just Armenians of course....).

By the way about the churces, there was a discussion, some dudes mentioned that in Germany or France -those Turkish-minority countires- didn't consisted any pics about mosques. Because of that, this page hasn't got any. I've put them but they were reverted actually. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 21:01, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: If there's no attempt to accommodate, I'm fine with just putting a POV tag in the Culture section rather than the top of the article. That whole section needs to be revamped. It has this whole "list-style" theme going on which needs to be reformatted coherently to avoid further disputes regarding who or what should be added. An emphases on non-Turkish minorities should be mentioned even if it means not having their ethnic background specified. So I propose just adding a few things about the Balyan family and perhaps add something on churches and monasteries. There's 500 of them in the country...it's the least we can do. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:20, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Well you're right that the list-style theme needs to change. A list of architects and buildings doesn't help the reader. A general appraisal of changes in architectural style would be better. If the churches and mosques reflect a particular architectural style I don't see why that shouldn't be mentioned. CMD (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Good notice about the specific sections. In fact, entire paragraphs need to be re-written. Culture & architecture in their present form are extrelemy limited in nature, so a pov tag won't be a surprise if no action takes places.Alexikoua (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Surely the whole problem is arising because of the overly-broad content of the article. It starts out as an article about the modern Republic of Turkey, yet strays into trying to mention the history of every area or entity that ever existed anywhere within the current territory of that modern Turkey even when there is no real connection to it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

You're touching on another subject there. That's a good observation though. Glad you pointed that out. Where do we draw the lines in terms of the territorial and political boundaries of the Republic of Turkey considering its predecessor state being an Empire? Please, let us have a different talk page section header for any continuation of this discussion though. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Give us back the Ottoman Empire, and we will gladly add all ex-Ottoman ethnicities to the Culture section. 81.215.28.56 (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Then go to Ottoman Empire's talk page mate I'm sure there are lots of work to do in that article's culture section too. By the way we should start working on it. One of us can create a sandbox page and we can all work on it. You guys gave good reasons to scrap the current culture section. I will gladly work on it. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 23:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

EtienneDolet, can you give a list of items you think should be added into the culture section that would result in the removal of the POV tag, or perhaps make a start on the issue yourself? This article is currently at GAN, and while I haven't given the article a thorough look through, but having a POV tag is a valid reason to insta-fail this article, so if it's not worked on soon, the first person to look at the GAN will be within reason to simply fail it immediately. CMD (talk) 09:59, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Chipmunkdavis (talk · contribs) The POV tag keeps getting removed without proper consultation with the talk page. As for your request, I think the names of the architects should be added (i.e. Balyan family) and perhaps descriptions about various churches or synagogues. That's fine enough for now. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

With Balyans; Fossati brothers, Mimar Kemaleddin Bey, Raimondo Tommaso D'Aronco and Alexander Vallaury should be added too. Unfortunately, i couldn't compose a suitable sentence to the relevant place in the paragraph. I could use some help though.elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 21:56, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure, Vallaury and Fossati would be good additions too. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The tag being removed isn't optimal, but it's irrelevant if we add stuff. Personally I don't think we should really add names (and we should remove the list currently there going for GA really). Names tell the reader nothing. The descriptions of churches and synagogues is a much better idea, as it focuses on overall architectural styles, which is what makes up an informative summary. CMD (talk) 00:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Lets just aim for the removal of this tag first. Then we will recompose the whole section. How bout that ? elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 00:16, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The article is about Turkey, not people! Architects (or anybody else) should be omitted if possible, no matter how persecuted their ancestors were! All architects, except maybe those from the year 1000, should be removed. People have their own article. Notable structures have their own articles. Student7 (talk) 13:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

GDP (PPP) per capita

The GDP (PPP) per capita is stated as $19,080. However, the reference documents states that it is $18,551 and dates back to 2012. IMF puts that number as $15,352.610 for 2013.

Languages

Some editors have cluttered the info box by inserted every language that has ever been spoken in Turkey. The infobox is supposed to be a short intro to the article, not a summary of everything in it. While Kurdish should probably supplement Turkic, there are few other languages that are widely spoken, and therefore should be omitted, not only from the info box, but from any "demographic" subsection or article. Student7 (talk) 13:00, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Some people just don't have common sense. --Mttll (talk) 14:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Manual of Style/Lead says "Infoboxes contain summary information or an overview relating to the subject of the article..." WikiProject Countries says, "Next, there is a table with quick facts about the country." (emphasis mine). In neither case does it say, nor suggest that an infobox should contain a comprehensive list, overwhelming the rest of the material. Student7 (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

There should be some sort of limit if it is to be included. 5% first-language speakers perhaps. CMD (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Like i said in my talk page, you can remove it if you are trying to summarize the article. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 07:44, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Turkey per capita income by province 2011.svg

...is extremely dubious (it claims that Bolu is as rich as Luxembourg while Şırnak is poorer than Somalia) and based on a dead link. I'm calling for its removal. --Mttll (talk) 05:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

If it is so, I agree too. It is nevertheless a pity, since such an info would be quite interesting. Alex2006 (talk) 06:15, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

We could look up for a reliable source (like Turkstat) to update the map, cause this map is useful indeed.

This Turkish Wikipedia article is based on information from TÜİK aka Turkstat, has a whole different table. The poorest province Şırnak has $2595 and the richest province Kocaeli (not Bolu) has $33620 per capita which looks more reliable than the current one.elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 07:42, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The Ahmadiyya religion doesn't exist in Turkey

There isn't a single Ahmadiyya mosque in Turkey. The Ahmadiyya religion was born in 19th century British India and exists only in the Indian subcontinent (in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) and in countries influenced by Indian culture, such as Indonesia.

The Pakistani and Bangladeshi "illegal travellers" (not "illegal immigrants" because Turkey doesn't give them "immigrant" status) who use Turkey as a "transit route" for entering Greece or Bulgaria (thus entering the European Union, as a first step of moving to wealthier countries in Western Europe) should not be counted among Turkey's local population.

The user Peaceworld111 previously used the user name Mohsin in Wikipedia. He is an Islamic activist of Bangladeshi origin who lives in the United Kingdom and has made it "his life's goal" to spread Islamist propaganda in Wikipedia. He spammed the Turkey article with an overdose of Islamic content in the past. There were even attempts to add Urdu as a language of the Ottoman Empire, which is totally incorrect. 88.251.65.65 (talk) 14:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Dear anonymous user, if you do think I am a sockpuppet, you can report me here WP:SI. But let me be clear, I have nothing to do with earlier edits that you accuse me of. --Peaceworld 17:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

The Muslims in Turkey don't believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) was the Mahdi and Messiah promised by the Koran. There isn't a single Ahmadiyya mosque in Turkey. The Pakistani and Bangladeshi "illegal travellers" in Turkey (who use Turkey as a "transit route" for entering Greece or Bulgaria, i.e. the European Union) don't count as Turkish citizens. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

See the Second Coming of Jesus in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, according to the Ahmadiyya sect for more details. This belief is not held by the Muslims in Turkey. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) even declared himself as the Caliph, challenging the Ottoman Sultan. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 15:00, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

@Mehmed the Conqueror is right actually, in addition the fact they don't have any mosque, they don't have any established association or community center either.elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 15:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

@User:Elmasmelih, the source is clear "...reportedly been organized in Turkey since 1995 and has a presence in eight districts...". This clearly points to an establishment. The lack of presence of a mosque or community centre cannot be used as a justification for the removal of the denomination, especially in cases where countries discriminate faith members for their beliefs, let alone permit the construction of a mosque. --Peaceworld 18:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

@Peaceworld111 Oh i didint noticed it. Thanks for stating that. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 18:39, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

@@Mehmed the Conqueror You have not replied for some time. Thus I have reverted your edit.--Peaceworld 11:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The "presence in eight districts" refers to the "missionary offices" opened by the sect, without necessarily a single follower. They also have a Turkish-language internet website for missionary purposes, which doesn't mean there are any followers. The financing is from the Ahmadiyya community in the United Kingdom. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

@User:Mehmed the Conqueror, that is your interpretation. --Peaceworld 16:52, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Let me be very honest with you: As soon as the average Turks in the street (and the Islamist government that currently runs Turkey) will find out that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) claimed to be the last Prophet of God (Muslims believe Mohammed was the last), the Mahdi and Messiah (i.e. the reincarnation of Jesus Christ), as well as the Caliph of Islam (challenging the Ottoman Sultan), those eight "missionary offices" won't probably have a very bright future. Turks are pious Muslims and such claims by Mr. Ahmad are considered heresy and blasphemy in this country. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 03:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

In Turkish we call such efforts "Müslüman mahallesinde salyangoz satmak" (trying to sell escargot in a Muslim neighbourhood.) Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 03:39, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

@User:Mehmed the Conqueror, we cannot go by how the people of a certain country are likely to treat a minority. There are somewhat 4 million Ahmadis in Pakistan and the situation is far worse than it is in Turkey, where they are not permitted to call themselves Muslims by law. The source is clear and we should go by what the source says and not one's personal view.--Peaceworld 08:53, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The Pakistani and Bangladeshi "illegal travellers" use Turkey only as a "transit route" for entering Greece or Bulgaria (the European Union) and are not given "immigrant" status by the Turkish government. Maybe you should add the Ahmadiyya religion to the Greece article (Greece is full of them.) Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, this article is about Turkey.--Peaceworld 08:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem here is that the source does not give any information about the number of adepts of this religion. This is the general article about Turkey, and this means that under the "Religion" paragraph should appear only the main religious groups present in the country now or historically important (like the Sufi). Writing here about all the other small groups present in Turkey, persecuted or not, is WP:UNDUE. So, please bring a reliable source which shows the current numerical consistency of this religion in Turkey or explain its historical importance in this country. Alex2006 (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

If WP:UNDUE were to be strictly adhered to, we would need to remove various religious denominations that have already been mentioned. Moreover, I do not think that the presence of population figures is a requirement. The source is clear in stating that the group is established in various districts across the country, and this cannot point to a few individuals. Moreover, the section hardly discusses the historical importance of the denominations. Besides, this section is about "Religion" and not "history of Religion." Had history been of such importance, there should have been discussions of various denominations that have been extinct since time immemorial.--Peaceworld 15:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to remove all the denominations which according to you comply with WP:UNDUE. About religions which are historically important, I am not talking about extinct religions, but about denominations which have a number of adepts so small that numerically they would not deserve the inclusion: above all the Orthodox, whose Patriarchate of Constantinople has been established in the Roman age, and the Sufi, which constitute an important branch of the Islam. Coming back to the religion in discussion, the fact that it is established in various districts of the country does not mean anything without giving more specific numbers: the deduction that this cannot point to a few individuals is your POV. To insert it here, we need reliable sources which show its importance in the country. Alex2006 (talk) 16:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

There are 2.1 billion Christians and 1.6 billion Muslims in this world. If Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (1835–1908) was indeed the Messiah (the reincarnation of Jesus Christ) we would have known, as he was supposed to "save entire humanity from evil", which Mr. Ahmad didn't. Interestingly, he claimed to be both the Mahdi and the Messiah, which is sort of an oxymoron (the Mahdi and Messiah (Jesus Christ) are different persons according to the Koran.) Mr. Ahmad can only be the "False Messiah" (Masih ad-Dajjal), but his influence on humanity and impact on history are too weak (insignificant) for even this role. He was merely a fraudster who used religion for personal gain, like thousands of others throughout the world. Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 00:25, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

He was the Great Cornholio who needed TP for his bunghole (similar to Sabbatai Zevi and Bahá'u'lláh.) Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 02:42, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Cornholio Bungholio :D Mehmed the Conqueror (talk) 16:27, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Really shouldn't have religions mentioned in Demographics of Turkey under 1%. Probably for this high level an article, the cut-off should be higher at 3% or so. Otherwise, we have hundreds of religions listed, making no particular point other than WP:SPAM for the reader. Student7 (talk) 14:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2014

I find the term Armenian Genocide false and the source cited too subjective also not reliable to be used in a so called objective information source.

Please do change the Term Armenian Genocide. Turkey is not the only country, which rejects to call the incidents "genocide".

Below is also a letter written by Stanford University Turkish Student Association regarding the matter.

http://web.stanford.edu/group/ccr/GreenHatBlog/armenian.pdf

217.110.82.61 (talk) 09:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

 Not done The term is in common usage, whilst a letter, on a blog, from such a group is neither an Independent nor a reliable source - Arjayay (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Foreign relations - I propose to move some history to main article and add a sentence re Iraqi Kurdistan

Recently my addition of the sentence: "Relations with Iraqi Kurdistan are good, which is important both to help prevent a restart of the Turkey–PKK conflict and to diversify Turkey's energy sources." referencing http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/24/world/meast/iraq-kurds-oil-sale/ was removed as being too detailed and more suitable for the "Turkey Iraq relations" article.

I agree that some of the info in this article is too detailed, but not the above. However I propose moving the historical info about foreign relations with America to a more detailed article and re-adding the above sentence. Because I believe Turkey's current relations with immediate neighbours are more important than its former relations with the USA (except as part of NATO which I would add to the list of imternational organisations at the top of the section).

Another ref: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21606297-buoyed-recent-success-their-iraqi-brethren-kurds-turkey-look-hopefully?zid=307&ah=5e80419d1bc9821ebe173f4f0f060a07

Any strong opinions? Jzlcdh (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Ethnic population misspelled

Political political reasons misspelled exaggerated ethnic population.

Ethnic population in Turkey : Turks % 78-81 ,kurdis-zazas % 14-16 ,other % 5-7

The Republic of Turkey State Institute of Statistics in 1965, the census and the mother tongue in the census results that:% 90.11 Turkish, 7.07% Kurdish, 1.16% Arabic and 0.48% Zaza, 0.18%, Circassian 0.08% Laz and other languages ​​spoken belirlenmiştir.1965 in Turkey, which is 31,391,421 2,219,502 of the population 'have reported that the mother tongue is Kurdish[^ Heinz Kloss & Grant McConnel, Linguistic composition of the nations of the world, vol,5, Europe and USSR, Québec, Presses de l'Université Laval, 1984, ISBN 2-7637-7044-4],[2]

EUROBAROMETER SURVEY OF THE EUROPEAN UNION 2005: TURKEY DIE MOTHER TONGUE OF TURKISH 93 percent of those who

After 1965 census questions have been asked in the native language. Research on ethnicity in Turkey "mother tongue" basis, while maintaining one of the last major work was the European Union. The European Commission's Eurobarometer statistics agency made ​​between May-July 2005 that "Europeans and Languages​​" Research has released in September 2005. According to the study, which considered native speakers of Turkish in Turkey was 93 percent. Accept Turkey as a mother tongue other languages ​​were reported as 9 per cent of those who[3]

[Turks % 78.1-81.33 ,kurdis-zazas % 9.02-13.4-15.6 ,other 5-7,native language 84.54 percent of Turkish , kurdish-zaza 11.97 ,other % 3-4 http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2007/03/22/guncel/agun.html]