Talk:Humic substance: Difference between revisions
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:Above comment has it correct. As far as whether or not Fluvic and Humic acids are synonymous, remember that nature doesn't give a fig about our definitions or labels. These particular materials are less discrete (like letters of the alphabet) and on more of a continuum, like colors. You know when something is yellow, and when it is green, but where exactly do you change over from yellow-green to green-yellow? Similarly, there is no fundamental property which distinguishes fulvic and humic acids unambiguously. Scientists have generally settled on the definition given above. It is also known that fulvic acid have a higher oxygen content than humic acids, and lower molecular weights. As for the article, I will consider compiling my thoughts on an edit and presenting it to the talk page for discussion. [[User:Equilshift|Equilshift]] ([[User talk:Equilshift|talk]]) 21:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC) |
:Above comment has it correct. As far as whether or not Fluvic and Humic acids are synonymous, remember that nature doesn't give a fig about our definitions or labels. These particular materials are less discrete (like letters of the alphabet) and on more of a continuum, like colors. You know when something is yellow, and when it is green, but where exactly do you change over from yellow-green to green-yellow? Similarly, there is no fundamental property which distinguishes fulvic and humic acids unambiguously. Scientists have generally settled on the definition given above. It is also known that fulvic acid have a higher oxygen content than humic acids, and lower molecular weights. As for the article, I will consider compiling my thoughts on an edit and presenting it to the talk page for discussion. [[User:Equilshift|Equilshift]] ([[User talk:Equilshift|talk]]) 21:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC) |
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== fulvic acid == |
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[[Special:Contributions/24.50.151.151|24.50.151.151]] ([[User talk:24.50.151.151|talk]]) 14:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC) |
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http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html |
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Humic acid can be extracted from any material containing well-decomposed organic matter - soil, coal, composts, etc. Extraction is by way of treatment of these materials with a solution of sodium hydroxide. This dissolves much of the organic matter present. If we then take this solution and add enough acid to drop its pH to about 2, organic material will begin to flocculate and can be separated from the liquid portion. The flocculated material is humic acid. What remains in solution is fulvic acid. |
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If we take the flocculated humic acid and dry it down to form a black mass that can be crushed and sized by dry sieving, we have humate. In other words, humate is humic acid in its solid state. Therefore, the chemical properties of humate and humic acid are basically the same. |
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I wish there was more but this is the only reference to fulvic acid I found. |
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Revision as of 14:32, 7 October 2014
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This page needs to be linked to Water Quality and treatment for the purpose of making drinking (potable) water.
The presence of humic acid in water intended for potable or industrial use can have a significant impact on the treatability of that water and the success of chemical disinfection processes. Accurate methods of estabishing humic acid concentrations is therefore essential in maintaining water supplies
This area needs to exapanded upon as it is is deals with public health related issues. any assistance would be appreciated
Scientific critic on the concept of humic substances
Recently, there is a substancial amount of critique in the scientific community regarding the chemistry of humic substances, and whether these operationally defined substances are really a good good model to study natural organic matter. The critique focuses on whether extraction methods for humic substances alter their chemistry, and whether humic substances can be found in untreated soils. I think this aspect should be discussed in the article.
Here are some key articles on the topic: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v478/n7367/full/nature10386.html http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065211310060037 Nagchampa (talk) 15:48, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
Article focus
Articles should focus on the topic in the title. This article spends most of it's time focusing on the properties of humic substances. Perhaps that material should be moved to humic substances which redirects here. Currently this article never tells us much about humic acid, structure, chemical properties, etc. I know nothing about it, so I wouldn't really be much help. Thanks - Taxman Talk 14:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I couldn't find in the article what led me to it out of curiosity in the first place: what kind of compounds makes humic acids (or substances)? Some are mentioned (amino acid residues, quinones, etc.), but they don't seem to be the major components. I ended up still not knowing an example of a humic acid and its actual chemical composition. --UrsoBR (talk) 01:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- Big molecule... I looked up Humic Acid and Fulvic Acid in Beilstein Crossfire. Fulvic Acid is 3,7,8-Trihydroxy-3-methyl-10-oxo-4,10-dihydro-1H,3H-pyrano[4,3-b]chromene-9-carboxylic acid - C14H12O8, whereas Humic Acid is (2-[3-Carboxy-3-(3-carboxy-2,4-dihydroxy-6-methyl-5-carboxy-phenyl)-2-hydroxy-1-methyl-propyl]-5-(3,4-dicarboxy-2-oxo-butyl)-4,6-dihydroxy-isophthalic acid - C28H26O20. The other acids mentioned on this page gave no hits. I'll try to put the Humic Acid structure on the main page.
Health Issues
I have been redirected here after searching for fulvic acid, which I was interested in because of its links to health issues. However, this article does not speak about these issues at all. Perhaps there is an argument for expanding the page on fulvic acid in regards to this? Sadly, I am a newcomer to this issue, and as such would not be the one for creating the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.171.88.236 (talk) 21:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
This is another acid found (along with apocrenic acid) in humus. Does anyone know its composition / structure? Jeff Knaggs (talk) 17:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Inline citations
I have added the "Morefootnotes" tag because the second half or 2/3 of the article is unreferenced and one really has no way of knowing how to verify or evaluate the information provided. --UrsoBR (talk) 01:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Ancient masonry
It seems far more likely that the function of straw in bricks is that of fibrous reinforcement rather than modification of the clay through the reaction withhumic action. Unless this claim can be backed by a reliable citation, it should be removed. StainlessSteelDoctor (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Why 'ancient masonry' at all? This material is called adobe, it was widely used wherever the climate is suitable for it (Mediterranean and warmer, also Ukraine). 92.249.121.125 (talk) 11:51, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
Fulvic Acid
Why does Fulvic Acid redirect to this page? Are they synonomous? This article discusses them as if they are two different, yet related, materials. It would help if this were explained in greater detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.188.233.14 (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
I read it as Fulvic acids being a subset of Humic acids. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.69.193 (talk) 06:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
The Fulvic Acid aspect I have only come across in connection with diet and health fads, and what I've seen elsenet is classic exploitative snake-oil selling in style. Yes, new science keeps appearing, but I haven't seen any science yet. Dragging in fulvic acids rings a faint alarm bell for me. Yes, call this comment "original research", but be careful.
Humic and fulvic acid are fractions of natural organic matter (NOM). They are defined operationally. The humic acids precipitate from solution at pH < 2. Likewise, the fulvic acids remain in solution. Both are complex mixtures of many organic compounds. Most aquatic NOM is fulvic acid, while a greater fraction of soil NOM (SOM) is humic acid. Humic acids generally have higher molecular weights. NOM binds metals, and so that could be the source of health claims (although I will not take that issue on). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.21.181 (talk) 04:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
- Above comment has it correct. As far as whether or not Fluvic and Humic acids are synonymous, remember that nature doesn't give a fig about our definitions or labels. These particular materials are less discrete (like letters of the alphabet) and on more of a continuum, like colors. You know when something is yellow, and when it is green, but where exactly do you change over from yellow-green to green-yellow? Similarly, there is no fundamental property which distinguishes fulvic and humic acids unambiguously. Scientists have generally settled on the definition given above. It is also known that fulvic acid have a higher oxygen content than humic acids, and lower molecular weights. As for the article, I will consider compiling my thoughts on an edit and presenting it to the talk page for discussion. Equilshift (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
fulvic acid
24.50.151.151 (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2014 (UTC) http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html
Humic acid can be extracted from any material containing well-decomposed organic matter - soil, coal, composts, etc. Extraction is by way of treatment of these materials with a solution of sodium hydroxide. This dissolves much of the organic matter present. If we then take this solution and add enough acid to drop its pH to about 2, organic material will begin to flocculate and can be separated from the liquid portion. The flocculated material is humic acid. What remains in solution is fulvic acid.
If we take the flocculated humic acid and dry it down to form a black mass that can be crushed and sized by dry sieving, we have humate. In other words, humate is humic acid in its solid state. Therefore, the chemical properties of humate and humic acid are basically the same. I wish there was more but this is the only reference to fulvic acid I found.