Talk:List of roller derby leagues

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Archive

August 2007 – September 2008 – Topics: Alaska league · Amateur much more popular than professional · Proposed order change · WFTDA and OSDA · The Arizona Banked Track · Recent edits about OSDA · Tulsa/Broken Arrow edits · Links and lists

Guidelines and structure

Currently the list is set up according to the following guidelines in to encourage maintainability, readability, verifiability, neutrality, and usefulness for research:

• Each league can be listed only once.
• A league's individual teams must not be listed or linked.
• A league can only be linked to its Wikipedia article, if one exists.
• A league's approximate location should be given and wikilinked, where known.
• Any potentially contentious information must be supplemented with references.
• For compliance with Wikipedia's verifiability policy, each league's information should be supplemented with references to secondary sources, not just the league's own Web site or Wikipedia article.
• Some supplemental information may be provided, including years active, type of track, active/defunct status, professional/amateur organization, gender inclusion, and geographic region. Grouping of list items under headings can reduce redundancy of some of this information.
• Information better maintained elsewhere in Wikipedia, such as the membership of particular leagues in associations like WFTDA and OSDA, must not be mentioned here.

Sections are used to differentiate between certain league characteristics, such as active vs. defunct, professional vs. amateur, and gender. This can be changed; suggestions for how to better organize things are welcome. —mjb 18:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC), updated 24 January 2008, 21 November 2009, and 8 April 2011.

I've been reading back over the discussions on this page, trying to make sure anything I edit within the article is within the established rules. Full disclosure: I am a derby girl, but I'm not into promoting my own league, I want to make this list more accessible for fans and researchers. First question: are we still preferring links to articles about teams, rather than league-run sites? The LRS seems to be the standard, though articles could be easy enough to find (as mentioned in the discussion about allowing LRS vs. secondary sources).

Second: it might-key word MIGHT- be easier to clean up the list a bit by adding an "inactive" list, as well as defunct. The distinctions being Active Leagues are currently training/bouting, Inactive Leagues have a presence but are difficult to verify, and Defunct Leagues are those known to be finished.

I know I don't spend too much time editing Wikipedia, but I spend gobs of time on the internet checking out other leagues-- I would like to be a valuable resource to you folks, and those reading the list. Let me know what I can do. Diimmortales (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Your help would be most appreciated! I'm finding I have less & less time to devote to this.

Re: your first question, yes, lists in Wikipedia which contain links are supposed to link to Wikipedia articles, otherwise the list attracts negative attention from people who consider it to be a link farm / web directory, and insist that the whole thing be deleted. The abundance of links to league-run sites (primary sources) is an artifact of how the list came into existence. All of those links need to be replaced with proper citations and/or links to Wikipedia articles about them (which in turn can only exist if there are proper citations in those articles).

I don't like the sound of "inactive" as the name of a section of unverified leagues. If we can't verify them, we should call them "announced but unverified", but then the obvious question is whether they belong here at all. Technically the answer is no, but being a jerk about it ("add your league to the list when you get some press coverage") isn't the best use of our time, especially when there's a good chance that in 6 months it will be verifiable. Aside from that, even with your help, we're still facing a shortage of curators of the list (and all roller derby content, for that matter). This being the situation, I think I'd prefer the status quo: copious "citation needed" tagging. —mjb (talk) 18:33, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

History and rationale

• Jul 2004 – Roller derby article stub created.
• Jul 2005 – First league site added to External Links section
• Jun 2006 – Over 110 league sites now in External Links section
• Jun 2006 – Links moved to List of roller derby leagues; unlinked historical leagues added
• Oct 2007 – Roller derby article History section moved to History of roller derby
• Nov 2009 – League links moved to references, where they will eventually all be replaced with better sources

The List of roller derby leagues was originally part of the External Links section of the roller derby article, but, like other sections of the article, the list was getting excessively long. Pruning it in accordance with an arbitrary standard of notability beyond WP:N would only invite conflict and impose a maintenance burden on the article's few curators, who would have to defend an unwritten policy. Consequently, in accordance with WP:SIZE, WP:SPLIT, and WP:STAND, the list was simply made stand-alone in June 2006. This also made it possible (and somewhat necessitated) changing the nature of the list from being a mere list of leagues with active Web sites to a list of just leagues — and by extension, incarnations of the sport throughout its history.

WP:LINKS and WP:NOT#LINK discourage the creation of lists of external links; rather than listing and linking to so many sites, the use of a single link to the Open Directory Project (dmoz.org) is ordinarily encouraged. However, the ODP can only list active web sites, and its roller derby section isn't very well maintained. More importantly, as a historical roster, the list needs to include those that don't have Web sites.

The main rationale for having an all-inclusive list of leagues (rather than merely discussing only the most notable leagues in prose, as is already done), is for the value it provides to the researcher, primarily to assist with the verification and more in-depth investigation of claims made in the roller derby/history of roller derby articles about the evolution of the sport. Readers of the main articles now have a single place where these certain aspects of the sport's history can be reviewed at once, regardless of whether the leagues have their own articles or Web sites, and regardless of whether they've been mentioned in the main article prose or have had their level of notability agreed upon. So the list isn't purely standalone, but rather is a sub-article and supplement to the main article, providing some details in a format that's convenient for researchers. Although it's not a timeline per se, the list essentially documents certain aspects of the sport's growth without prejudice: it doesn't omit "forgotten" or "unproven" leagues, and thereby doesn't promulgate myths & misconceptions about roller derby's breadth and the often-overstated dominance of its televised incarnations.

The list also reduces the temptation for young leagues to self-promote, as was happening when excessive mentions of leagues were added to prose in the main articles. By providing every league with a single mention (and optional single link) in a place separate from the prose, none are unfairly favored.

The main rationale for providing, prior to November 2009, links to leagues' Web sites (when no Wikipedia article is available) was to provide a simple and temporary way to help verify their legitimacy, and to better enable research of those leagues. It was not for self-promotion of leagues, nor is it for boosting their Web sites' search engine rankings, although since January 2007, due to the use of nofollow, external links on Wikipedia no longer directly affect search engine rankings. Regardless, all links to league sites must be replaced with more traditional third-party sources: citations of mainstream press coverage and sports literature. This is a large task and any help with it would be appreciated.

A number of Wikipedia policies and guidelines directly affect the list:

• Wikipedia:Verifiability — Every league & detail in the list must be readily verifiable against cited reliable sources, preferably neutral publications. As a work in progress, the list always needs more citations of reliable sources.
• Wikipedia:Notability — As a historical roster, the list itself is notable in aggregate. That said, the minimum criteria for a league's inclusion in the list is the general threshold for notability: being verifiable against (e.g., mentioned in) a reliable source. Further discussion of this threshold is welcome here.
• Wikipedia:Notability (sports) — The failure of this policy proposal to reach consensus means there is no specific criteria for sports league notability.
• Wikipedia:Neutral point of view — Bias must be avoided wherever possible; excluding leagues or implying some are more important than others could introduce bias.
• Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists — Where appropriate, the list's style should follow the suggestions in this guide.
• Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise — This RFC proposed modifying the notability policy for "spinout" articles & lists like this one. The discussion acknowledges many contentious aspects of such articles & lists, and the outcome may strengthen or diminish the list's suitability for Wikipedia. However, the RFC seems to have resulted in nothing resembling consensus.

—mjb 18:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC), updated 14 February 2008, 24 January 2009, 9 November 2009, and 21 November 2009.

Another Pro League in Oakland?

According to their MySpace profile, there is also an Original Roller Derby League in the Bay Area. They appear to be putting on occasional games in Alameda. Beyond that profile and one flyer graphic, there's fairly little documentation. They seem to share some skaters with other professional leagues, which is pretty much a given anyways. No telling who owns the league. TimBRoyLV (talk) 02:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I suspect it's Dan Ferrari's American Roller Skating Derby under a different name, probably just for those two matches in February & March 2008.[1] Mentioning it here would basically be double-listing ARSD. I think unless we find out it's definitely independent, it should only be mentioned on the ARSD page. —mjb (talk) 06:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It would appear that the skater known as "Ice Box" promoted these two games rather than Dan Ferrari. Per a post on While team names were recycled, that's not at all uncommon outside of RGI (RGI licenses the league name and T-Birds name from the Griffiths). There's been one form of Bay Bombers/Bay City Bombers in NRDL, ARSD, IRSL, etc (the name was apparently never trademarked). And if we were to use the same skaters being in both leagues as the cut-off point there would likely be only one or two pro leagues.

I really don't care either way if they are listed or not (perhaps list them as a defunct org?). I do find it odd that they are not listed while the ARDL is listed as a currently active organization, when no evidence can be found that they've skated a game in the last six years. TimBRoy (talk) 05:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Misdirecting Links

Several IP users and someone by the name of Team1up has been changing the New Hampshire Roller Derby link to a dead link to a defunct skate shop. I have changed New Hampshire Roller Derby's link so that it points to their page on Wikipedia. It seems that these IP users and Team1up are attempting to harm New Hampshire Roller Derby. Other pages have been affected by vindictive and malicious removal of information, placement of misdirecting links, and other factually incorrect information to do harm to New Hampshire Roller derby. New Hampshire Roller Derby is a Manchester, NH based non-profit organization with pending federal non-profit status. They have a posted competition schedule on their website, are pending application to the Women's Flat Track Derby Association, and have been invited as the only roller derby league in the Manchester, NH 2009 St. Patrick's Day Parade (though participation is unconfirmed). It is believed that the changes to New Hampshire Roller Derby's wikipedia information is the work of disgruntled former skaters. Encyclopediaclown (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I am sure that other leagues may be experiencing similar problems to NHRD and this page may leave amateur leagues vulnerable to attack by former members. Encyclopediaclown (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Important note for those who add new leagues

If you add a league with a MySpace/Facebook/Blogspot URL, SmackBot will undo your edit. If you're a logged in editor, you can revert the bot's edit, as this is one of the few places where links to MySpace profiles IS appropriate (though if the league has a different sort of web presence you should provide THAT as a link).

Anonymous edits aren't revertable (to my knowledge) and are generally deemed suspicious in the Wikipedia community.

The long and short of it is, if you want a link to a league that's still at the MySpace-only phase to remain, you'd need to create an account, add it while you're logged in to that account, then put the page on your watch list and revert the SmackBot edit. TimBRoy (talk) 11:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Also note: The fewer of those types of links the page has, the better it probably is for the future of this article. In other words, if you see a league you know has a hosted web site with a MySpace or similar link on here, please change the link to their actual hosted web site. From time to time it's not a terrible idea to look through the listings for leagues with "bad" links, Google around for their web sites and update the site. TimBRoy (talk) 11:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Even more important note: Wikipedia is not a web directory. These links shouldn't be here at all. If the idea is that you are using those links as references, they need to be listed as references instead of external links, AND they must meet our rules on reliable sources. The link bot automatically removes MySpace/Facebook/Blogspot for a reason, and that's because those don't qualify. I also do not think individual pages put up by the leagues demonstrate any sort of notability per Wikipedia standards, and they in many cases are not reliable sources either, as anyone can put up any site and make any claim. We need good sources, and, really, the whole article is currently not in line with Wikipedia standards at all. DreamGuy (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You make good points re: the appropriateness of external links, especially links to self-promoting, primary sources, and ultimately I think you and I and SmackBot are all on the same side. However, I sense some friction because we seem to have different approaches to editing, perhaps boiling down, as we confront the hordes of anonymous contributors of marginally inappropriate content, to matters of patience and pragmatism — I seem to have an abundance of both, but whether that's a good thing for the articles we each touch is probably a matter of opinion. Both approaches seem to have pros and cons.

Nevertheless, "the whole article is currently not in line with Wikipedia standards at all" is a statement I don't agree with, and one need only review the #History and rationale topic above to see why.

The appropriateness of external links is certainly open for reconsideration. Although WP:EL#Official links could be said to apply, our acceptance of links to primary sources (be they league-run websites or MySpace presences) as potential portals to press coverage was never envisioned as a permanent situation, but rather was just an attempt to ease the maintenance burden as new entries were pouring in. I thought the rate of new leagues coming into existence would eventually be slowing down, but it's actually not; over 50 were created in the last 6 months, and over 300 in the last 2½ years (actually that means the rate is slowing, just not by much). So maybe this makes it more urgent to address the issue sooner rather than later, and we (who? you and me? somehow I think you're not going to help here at all) should attempt to convert as many links as possible to citations of press coverage. Press coverage was rare in 2005, but is more common now; the majority of leagues have had something written about them in the local press, usually a human-interest feature which can at least be used to verify the league's existence, if not also its approximate date of creation, gender restrictions, and type of track. Searching for such coverage is just time-consuming and not something yet demanded by anyone with an actual interest in the topic.

That said, the harm of including the links has yet to be demonstrated or even stated, whereas I can elaborate on the harm of removing links. First, I don't think it would be helping matters if we made it harder for researchers to verify individual entries. So if a link is to be removed, it at least needs to be replaced with a reference. Second and more importantly, if all external links are removed, then it's likely, based on the caliber of edits so far, to just result in a plethora of league-specific articles getting created. Is that really any better than having external links to primary sources?

The notability of leagues for the purpose of creating articles was discussed already (Talk:Roller derby/Archive 1#League-specific articles: continue to delete?); you might note I was initially challenging and deleting such articles on notability and self-promotion grounds, but in the end there just was no consensus for it; I got the general notability requirement thrown back at me, and a number of AfD nominations failed. So I think before embarking on pruning of links, we need serious discussion going about degrees of notability for roller derby leagues, and how it applies to the kind of links allowable this list as well as to the creation of articles.

Third, the issue of enforcement is also important; it's easy to say the burden is on those who wish to keep the content/links, but we're no SmackBot. If you're not going to be committed to fairly regular patrols, then whatever you remove is just going to continue to be reintroduced, most likely more poorly than before. Can you understand how leaving this fallout for the rest of us to deal with discourages us from helping at all, and that some articles which are carelessly pruned to satisfy your bureaucratic tendencies will end up floundering in an arguably worse state than before you came along? Deletion of material that's on the edge of guidelines & policies might be a successful strategy most of the time, but you're gambling that the offending material won't be introduced, or that the article's regular curators will have the time & inclination to be as aggressive and argumentative as you (which I see has led to you being banned from editing recently), even if we have policy on our side. I prefer to let people with an interest in article topics determine what's important to cover, and then nudge articles & editors in the right directions from there. Sometimes this means content is in a less than ideal state for a while, but as long it's slowly improving, it's the lesser of evils; and that's what we've actually been doing here. Accelerating this process is a noble goal, but if carried out in the manner you propose, I anticipate it will backfire, especially if you intend for the rest of us to defend your point of view in your absence.

Anyway, feel free to start a new topic of discussion below so we can answer the question of how to go about pruning links in a way that isn't going to be contrary to the timeline-ish purpose of the list, or be destructive, burdensome, increasing bias, or be doing a disservice to researchers. As I mentioned, consensus for league article creation may need to be sorted out first. And thanks for reading this far; I know I get long-winded sometimes. —mjb (talk) 06:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Las Misteriosas never existed as a league.

Las Misteriosas were apparently a pickup team of Mexican-American skaters who skated a challenge bout against "La Migre" at RollerCon 2006. The MySpace page for the "league" was a joke. To date there are no modern roller derby leagues in Mexico.

Please don't re-add this non-existent "league." TimBRoy (talk) 02:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

More national sections.

Today I've split Australia into its own section. There's 20 leagues there, about as many as in Canada, which has its own section.

I might have also done so with the UK leagues, but there's a question I'm not quite certain about. I see England and Scotland listed as distinct countries. Aren't they just parts of the United Kingdom?

I plan to add in a few more missing international leagues, but I thought I'd wait until SmackBot is done undoing this edit. TimBRoy (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Oy vey. I've just read a talk thread from hell (or seven) on how England and Scotland are countries but not sovereign nations. I'd ask some UK skaters, but I don't suspect I'd care to open that can of worms. Where it gets tricky is that I could and should lump the two "countries" together in a UK section, and I guess give city and country instead of city and province. Is the United Kingdom broken into provinces? Or just into countries (and the Welsh principality)? Consensus? TimBRoy (talk) 08:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Avoiding duplicate entries.

Earlier this week someone entered some men's leagues. Great. XLinkBot whacked their entry. I put one of the leagues back in, and left out the other league. Because it already existed in another section. A men's team (I wish that was leagues instead of teams, but I think it's an accurate term, given the sparsity of men's derby) does not go on the Active Men's Teams list if it is part of a co-ed league. Even if they do belong to the Men's Derby Coalition. Which reminds me, I need to put a mention of them up top on the list, along with WFTDA, OSDA, and the Renegades. TimBRoy (talk) 08:39, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Seatown Derby Experience is a single co-ed league, comprised of the Sisters of Slant and the Brothers of Banked. Pioneer Valley Roller Derby is a single co-ed league, consisting of a men's team (Dirty Dozen) and a women's team (Western Mass Destruction). Please don't add either one to the women's and men's leagues lists. And try and watch for duplicate entries along these lines. TimBRoy (talk) 08:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

While I do think it makes sense to avoid duplicate entries, this will mean that a lot of junior derby will get lost, since many of those teams are part of regular women's derby leagues and as such will not show anywhere. Don't know how to solve that issue though. Lauramaki (talk) 17:20, 28 Aug 2013 (EET)

Dead Links

Removed dead links in the Western section, Currently in process of tracking down the correct links for these leagues to see if they still exist & as well working on th rest of the page for more dead links.:

• Centralia, WA - Rainy City Roller Dolls
• Chico, CA - NorCal Roller Girls
• Corpus Christi, TX - Hurricane Alley Roller Derby
• Honolulu, HI - Honolulu Derby Girls
• Inland Empire, CA - Inland Empire Derby Divas
• Medford, OR - Southern Oregon Rollergirls
• Oklahoma City, OK - Oklahoma Victory Dolls
• Port Orchard, WA - Slaughter County Roller Vixens (duplicate link)
• San Antonio, TX - Blazin' Banditas Rollerderby
• San Diego, CA - San Diego Derby Starlettes
• Stockton, CA - San Joaquin Valley Vixens

WiiBlockHer (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Google says that San Diego Derby Starlettes are now a team in a league now called San Diego Roller Derby. My thinking is that they went for something easier for fans to figure out the spelling of. I'll re-add them with the current URL.

Rainy City Roller Dolls still has an active MySpace profile. It would've been better to switch to that. NorCal Roller Girls have switched URLs.

Rather than removing the leagues, it might have been better to Google the league names and move the dead ones to the "defunct leagues" part of the list. Thanks for posting them here though. I'm re-adding the leagues that still exist. TimBRoy (talk) 09:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Right, this is a list of leagues (past and present), not a list of links. And it's not a list of only currently active, website-having leagues. So it's perfectly acceptable for a defunct league to be listed in the appropriate section. No league needs to have a link in order to be listed; links are just a bonus, a jumping off point for verification and further research. Please make sure no information was lost in the pruning and re-adding. Thanks! mjb (talk) 02:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Everything that's listed above was put back onto the list, SOMEWHERE. I actually deleted the OTHER entry for Slaughter County. When we have an actual city (versus a country, region, etc) we should go with that. Just because it's listed on Cat's list as being based in a county, generally one can determine a base city via the league's web site. TimBRoy (talk) 10:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

As far a removing the leagues I had a short time and just wanted to get a list here so they can be tracked and removed from the Main list temp until a team gets found and does note redirect people to dead sites. Most from what i found have merged or as what you stated above have swapped url's. Just figured it could be a good section for now so that we can work on what has swapped and what really is no more.

Now I know up above there is a guideline as far as "When there is a choice of external sites to link to, a non-MySpace link is required", Should we try to have a non MySpace link for these groups since MySpace tends to have less then what is the norm for roller derby teams whom have a website.? WiiBlockHer (talk) 11:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, when an actual hosted page exists, the MySpace link should be replaced with it. Of course, the page doesn't necessarily have greater content than the MySpace profile. Often it's the other way around. But that's really not the issue. Wikipedia prefers links to sites that aren't social networking sites or blogs. So a league that has a Blogspot URL is just as "bad" as a MySpace or Facebook page. In THAT situation, sometimes it's better to pick the one that seems the most informative and has the most recent/current content.

One way to fix this stuff is to mouseover links, find the MySpace links, and then in another window/tab do a search on the league's name. I've done this from time to time and have managed to replace numerous MySpace URLs. The thing to realize is that by doing this, we may be contributing to the "dead link" situation mentioned above. It's not terribly uncommon for newer leagues to have free hosting procured from a sponsor, a skater's significant other, etc. The URLs change when the relationship terminates or when the skater who owns the URL leaves the league. Or the sites go down and they revert to being a MySpace-only league.

This list is always going to be a treadmill working in a few different directions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimBRoy (talk • contribs) 20:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Amateur league creation dates

To fulfill the pseudo-timeline purpose of the list, charting the growth of the sport, we've really got to be getting league formation dates (and dissolution dates, if necessary) added to as many leagues as possible, like I originally did for the defunct pro leagues.

I know it's a pain to look them all up, but I think if we get enough dates added, people will at least do it themselves for new additions. I'm willing to get started on it, but it'll go faster if we divide the work. Anyone up for some Googling? —mjb (talk) 06:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I could probably do a bit of that. TimBRoy (talk) 05:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Primary sources

I'm wondering if a way to encourage people to replace primary-source references (links to league-run sites) would be to shunt off those listings into a separate section, hidden as a Template:Collapsible list. It would certainly shorten the visible list quite a bit. Thoughts? —mjb (talk) 19:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Remove american leagues

There are currently two lists now on wikipedia for US leagues. One here and one at Roller derby in the United States. It makes sense to simply have a link to the Roller derby in the United States link from this page. Thoughts? Captain jim1 (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I hate redundant data. I think smarter might be a merge with List of roller derby leagues, with a redirect from this page. Comments? --Nemonoman (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I think Roller derby in the United States needs an actual rewrite. I'm contemplating how to write Roller derby in Australia and it isn't for a list. Rather, it is to talk about the history of the game, governance, the important teams in the country. (Trying to think of examples I can point to but all Australian and other sports. See Women's soccer in Australia, Women's badminton in Australia, Netball in the Cook Islands.) I'd suggest removing the list from Roller derby in the United States and adding historical information, governance information, etc. There are a few good sources found on places like List of roller derby associations which can begin to give an idea about that. --LauraHale (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I have been doing some WikiGnome work here repairing references & citations. This page takes an awfully long time to save because there is so much on it. There are nearly 600 references! I think that it makes sense to start breaking out portions of the list into separate lists. Since Roller derby is not within my expertise, I have to leave it to others to figure out how to divide it up into smaller components. Peaceray (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Using Facebook template instead of the Cite web template

I suggest using Template:Facebook instead of Template:Cite web for Facebook citations. Examples of the syntax for this are {{Facebook|markzuckerberg|Mark Zuckerberg}} & {{Facebook|roller.derby.ks|Kassel Roller Derby}} without an ID & {{Facebook|id=markzuckerberg/68310606562|name=Mark Zuckerberg}} & {{Facebook|id=groups/10150118391240212|name=Swansea City Slayers - roller derby team}} with an ID. This has the benefit of flagging the citation as a Facebook page. For eample:

• Kassel Roller Derby on Facebook
• Swansea City Slayers - roller derby team on Facebook

Peaceray (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I seem to recall it being stated that this isn't supposed to be a collection of links. The references are there to prove that the links exist, not to drive viewers to their pages. As Facebook isn't a reliable resource, it's not supposed to be used. Every Facebook link on the page should be replaced with a link to a news story about the league. Barring one of those existing, a league web site suffices.

I wound up giving up on editing this article, as folks kept re-adding the Facebook and MySpace links as fast as I could replace 'em. TimBRoy (talk) 18:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Many of these teams do not have a web site but do have group sites on Facebook & MySpace. For that reason, the réalité politique, or "situation on the ground", is that roller derby participants & fans are going to keep this list current with the only link that is available for these teams, which is the Facebook page. This is not exactly the way that I would have chosen to do it either, but it is what it is.

The reason that I prefer Template:Facebook / {{Facebook}} instead of Template:Cite web / {{Cite web}} for Facebook citations is that it adds "on Facebook" to the citation. I feel that a citation like Kassel Roller Derby on Facebook is more honest than "Kassel Roller Derby". because the former unequivocally flags it as a Facebook page, whereas with the latter, you just do not know until you get there. I think the average user knows about the volatility of Facebook pages & thus accepts what s/he gets if they click on a known Facebook link.

Peaceray (talk) 04:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Template:(league-run site) -- Not!

Template:(league-run site) does not currently exist. Will someone create it, or just convert all instances from {{(league-run site)}} to just plain (league-run site), please. Peaceray (talk) 19:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Better yet don't. See my comment in the section above... TimBRoy (talk) 18:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

"don't" is just not going to happen, so it would be helpful to go in one direction or the other. My take is that unless I see something that points to the template in a day or two, I am going to replace all instances "{{(league-run site)}}" with (league-run site). Peaceray (talk) 04:26, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I changed one instance of {{(league-run site)}} to (league-run site). That was all that was left. I think that this was a residual effect of a bad edit or copy-and-paste of a citation, such as {{cite web |url=http://some_roller_derby_league.org |title= Some Roller Derby League(league-run site)}}, in which someone took out the "cite web |url=http://some_roller_derby_league.org |title= Some Roller Derby League" or only copied the (league-run site)}}" and tacked on a "{{(", maybe to get rid of an error. Peaceray (talk) 20:15, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2015

Please add the CoMo Derby Dames to the list of roller derby leagues from Missouri. Our website link is http://comoderbydames.org/ and our Wiki page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoMo_Derby_Dames. 64.91.27.50 (talk) 20:48, 23 March 2015 (UTC)