Talk:Germany

Kurdish people

in this artcle, [1]. is wrote more than (800,000) kurdish live in germany. why here like that ? Ibrahim aziz (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Section on Formation

I'd like to see the German Reich added to this formation. The formation goes from the Weimar Republic to the Federal Republic, skipping the Nazi German Reich of 1933 - 1945. We understand that the government was a dictatorship, but it was also, in fact democratically elected by a landslide. I'd be concerned that this was omitted from the formation, perhaps due to the embarrassing nature of the history itself and a desire to move beyond this. However, I think that to attempt to marginalise or lessen the relevance of this period is wholly inappropriate. It's arguably the biggest event in human history, I'd like to see this moved to the formation. It wasn't a short blip on the radar like the Military Junta in Argentina, it was a legitimate state, democratically elected that was in place for 12 years, it was not an illegitimate dictatorship that seized power from the Weimar Republic, therefore it slots in between the Weimar and Federal republics. Can someone please edit this please? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavquinn87 (talk • contribs) 14:18, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

There is a chapter Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany and a separate article Nazi Germany, so what are you talking about?--Kgfleischmann (talk) 17:00, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

If you read what I wrote, it states that I'd like to see the German Reich added to the section on 'formation'. The section on formation is located on the right side of the page, below the map. It outlines the different changes of 'the state' from Empire to Republic, etc. In this section, following on immediately from 'Weimar Republic' is 'German Federation'. This isn't accurate, I'd like to see 'German Reich' added in here. It's clear enough what I was talking about, did you read my previous comment? If you read it you will see, it's clear.

Thank You, Gavquinn87 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavquinn87 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Map of the administrative division of the Greater German Reich (Officially "Großdeutsches Reich")

Fair point, the Info Box section on Formation was missing this phase of German political development. --E-960 (talk) 10:17, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

The formation as a German state after World War 1 was in 1919 ! The "Nazi era government" was established within the Weimar Republic constitutional framework. Expedian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:04, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, if you want to get technical, what is Weimar Republic? I don't believe that's an official name of any kind for the German state, also if you want to get even more detailed, then we should include the Greater German Reich Großdeutsches Reich (Third Reich) as an actual name of the German state in the Info Box—as noted the term: "is the official state name of the political entity... [Nazi Germany]" perhaps we should include that if you feel that Weimar Rep. and Nazi Germany were the same political entity until the start of WWII. Pls see map, as this was a official name used for Germany, which fully incorporated Poland, Czech Rep, and Austria into it's territory. --E-960 (talk) 05:39, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

As I understand the box on the right, there are only new constitutional versions of Germany listed. The Nazi regime did not founded a new constitutional framework. Expedian (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Expedian, please do not remove other items on the page without an explanation. As for the naming argument, please explain your comment "only new constitutional versions of Germany listed"? Was the Holy Roman Empire a constitutional entity in the modern sense? I feel that this is just an excuse to omit reference to Nazi Germany from the Info Box. Perhaps other editors can weight in on this topic. --E-960 (talk) 10:33, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• To avoid an edit war, I won't re-add the reference to Nazi Germany in the Info Box as this is a recent edit, and the discussion is still in progress. But the image of the concentration camp is not a brand-new addition, so pls do not randomly remove it as a side item to this discussion as you did twice now, as the items are not related. --E-960 (talk) 10:37, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

RFC: Adding Nazi Germany to Infobox

Should the Info Box contain a reference to Nazi Germany in the 'Formation' section—currently the section reads:

• Holy Roman Empire 2 February 962
• German Confederation 8 June 1815
• German Empire 18 January 1871
• Weimar Republic 11 August 1919
• Federal Republic 23 May 1949
• EEC Foundation 1 January 1958
• Reunification 3 October 1990

I suggest that reference to Nazi Germany 30 January 1933 is included between Weimar Rep. and Federal Rep. --E-960 (talk) 10:47, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• Yes. The Third Reich/Nazi Germany was a distinct political period in Germany's history and should be included in the Info Box.

• No. Nazi Germany was a political era. But not a new state. Expedian (talk) 18:28, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I cannot even find the 'Formation' section referred to, however the overall coverage of the Nazi period seems balanced and given at least adequate weight. One minor observation, the text in the lead refers to 'a genocide'. Perhaps a better text and link would be 'the Holocaust', which is the general term both for the 'Jewish dimension' but is also often used for other victim groups and is the most widely used term for Nazi persecution. Pincrete (talk) 22:55, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• Pincrete, this section is in the 'Info Box' at the top of the page right below 'Legislature' sub-section. --E-960 (talk) 04:03, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Yes, sort of - I'll suggest relabeling the period to "Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany" as the division the article uses, though the borders and nature of what "Germany" was did change considerably in the 1930s. I also noted the box lacks German Democratic Republic (1949) so after this one you might look at that. Markbassett (talk) 01:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• I have edited the header and created a new section for this RFC as I guess this might receive a lot of input. I am also notifying WikiProject Countries. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Remove the section entirely as excessive, convoluted, and more appropriately explained in prose. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:37, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• Remove the section from the infobox; barring that, add with the Weimar Republic entry (per Markbassett). Beyond the fact that it clutters the infobox, the current "formation" header is generated by |sovereignty_type = [[Kingdom of Germany|Formation]] when (1) you would not really expect clicking on "formation" to lead you to Kingdom of Germany, (2) though the key sovereignty_type is not documented in Template:Infobox_country, I guess it is intended for "parliamentary republic" or similar. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 07:44, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Rename "Formation" to "Timeline" then add Nazi Germany 1933-1945. My opinion: The time periods in the infobox form a timeline instead of a single or multiple formations. I think a timeline is a better approach.

Comment: I did not find a formation parameter in template infobox Country. Is there a definition of the parameter "Formation"?CuriousMind01 (talk) 14:07, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Remove the section entirely better explained in prose per Nikkimaria, too many 'Easter egg' links as pointed out by Tigraan, and the omission of DDR as pointed out by Markbassett, also conflation of historic 'Germanic' entities with Germany, the modern state. Barring that, add Nazi Germany to Weimar Republic as an entity. Pincrete (talk) 19:46, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
• Remove the section entirely per Pincrete and Nikkimaria. This is yet another example of an infobox trying to do too much. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• No. While a distinct political era, there was no event that demonstrated a significant change to Germany's statehood. I disagree with an entire removal of the section, but agree it currently lacks focus. It should be used to give context to the sovereignty_type field. Thus, per Pincrete, it should avoid conflation of historic entities with the modern state, and so it should begin with the unification of Germany. Given it is not a full historical timeline, I am not as concerned about the lack of East Germany, as its absorption was an effective annexation rather than the creation of a new political structure, with today's Germany based upon pre-existing structures. CMD (talk) 07:57, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
• Nor or remove Third Reich was what they called themselves, not Nazi Germany. L3X1 My Complaint Desk 13:30, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

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Weimar Republic and Nazi Germany Images

The section should highlight the consequences of the Nazi regime, by including an image of the most infamous German concentration camp. I noticed in the past that the Germany article in several instances emphasizes the victimhood of Germany while omitting the cause, this was the case in the German Confederation and Empire section, when the text made reference to "Germans perceived the treaty as humiliating and unjust and it was later seen by historians as influential in the rise of Adolf Hitler" while completely omitting the fact that the German territories lost under the treaty were inhabited by non-German majorities and that those territories were taken by Germany from other countries (I added those references to complete the narrative). Also, there is a map of Allied Occupation zones, yet nothing in the preceding section that might highlight the reason for the allied occupation of Germany. --E-960 (talk) 12:07, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• By the way, in the past when I tried to add an image of a concentration camp map of Europe to the WR and NG section, the argument for taking it down was that there is a consensus for only one image on the page, since than we have a second picture of Philipp Scheidemann in the section, and when I tried to add the concentration camp picture the argument used to take it down is that there is a consensus for only two pictures—pretty lame excuse :D . --E-960 (talk) 12:07, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

With all respect E-960. Your edit history leaves no doubt. You have never added to Germany related articles in a constructive way. Your intentions here are to highlight / whitewash all issues related to Poland and suppressing all negative parts related to this country. At the same time you promote only negative events in German history. I call this either trolling or nationalist behavior. My 2 cents. After looking in your edit history I found out that you have tried to put in the non-consensus image here more than once. Stop it. Expedian (talk) 18:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I've yet to come across a historian of 20th C Europe who did NOT record that the post WWI settlements, and the sense of humiliation felt by some Germans was a significant factor in the rise of Nazism. What you seem to be arguing E-960, is that Germans had no right to feel such humiliation since the lost territories were not ethnically German. That is fairly irrelevant, many in the US felt humiliated at the ignoble end to 10 years in Vietnam, some in the UK felt humiliation at the loss of Empire, the moral rights or wrongs of either outcome are academic, the political consequences and effects are not. Pincrete (talk) 22:45, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Expedian, and Pincrete to respond to your comments. Unfortunately, in today's Germany with the use of phrases like 'Polish Concentration Camps" (pls read the Wiki article) by state owned media organizations like ZDF and others, someone may question whether there was a true sense of coming to terms with this history. This term is not accidental it was coined by two former Nazis Reinhard Gehlen and Alfred Benzinger, who worked as intel officers in the "democratic" Federal Republic of Germany after the war. Also, just now on the Nazi Germany Wiki page someone keeps changing the statement in the Oppression of ethnic Poles from "2.7 million ethnic Poles were killed by the Nazis" to "2.7 million ethnic Poles were killed by the Axis Powers"… completely ridiculous, thus perhaps the image of the concentration camp should highlight some of the facts regarding this topic, that those camps were build by Nazi Germany served their industry (IG Farben) and exterminated millions. --E-960 (talk) 03:58, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• Btw, on Russia page there is an image of the Gulags, so in this case no one seems to shy away form presenting a comparable issue, given the scale this need to be highlighted here as well. This is a factually correct/relevant item and there is room for it, you can't just block it arbitrarily by saying that there is a consensus for just two images, that's not an argument based on merits, it's an excuse. --E-960 (talk) 04:16, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• E-960's edit warring notwithstanding, "their" version with a photo of the entrance of Auschwitz-Birkenau looks fine to me and not undue weight.

The post-WW1 humiliation stuff, of course, should stay. The argument that "they have right to feel this way / we don't care" is irrelevant when every reliable source agrees on the reality of that feeling and its political consequences, both of which are sufficiently notable for Wikipedia to mention - see, for instance, Dolchstoßlegende. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 08:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Problems, or PoV on other aricles are not a good reason for undue weight here. I doubt if the America article has pictures of My Lai or Hiroshima or Wounded Knee, nor that the UK article has pictures of 'bloody Sunday' or the more notorious incidents of Empire. To include on the general country page is frankly shoving down people's throats. The same would be true of gulags, though they would anyway be on the USSE page, not the Russia one. Clearly such pictures belong on more precise topic articles, but not on the general country articles. Pincrete (talk) 11:45, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Totally agreed. The text section is already very precise about it, as well as the specific articles. Modern Germany is a different entity than Nazi Germany and there's no need to shove a KZ pic down people's throats. Obviously this is following the victimising narrative of Polish PiS politicians, who aren't getting tired to stress that there were _German_ death camps, as obviously some uninformed tourists say "Polish death camps" since they are in Poland now. Seriously, that's ridiculous and not an encyclopedic ground to work on. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 14:32, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

E-960, two or three points, like Obama, I would quite naturally refer to 'Polish death camps', it would not even occur to me that anyone could construe my meaning as anything other than shorthand for 'Nazi death camps, located in occupied Poland'. Some Poles obviously take offence at that shorthand, none intended. Why some Germans prefer that form and whether it is a form of deflection, I have no idea. If it is deflection, they will have to try much harder than that before any serious person imagines Auschwitz etc. were anything other than Nazi run and instigated camps, but regardless of their motives, WP isn't here to 'fix' or counter-act the opinions of anyone. The 'name controversy' article is fairly poorly written in my opinion and thus probably does a disservice to those who do take offence at the description 'Polish'. Pincrete (talk) 20:02, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Pincrete and Horst-schlaemma, please leave political jargon like Obama or PiS out of it. My Lai or Hiroshima as bad as they were do not equate to what happened with Nazi Germany—think of the social, political, cultural and ethnic changes that occurred in Europe because of actions that were taken by the Nazis. Again, country articles like Russia (Gulags) and Cambodia (the Killing Fields) have images to highlight extraordinary events of this nature. Germany article should as well, the image is not graphic, also as user Tigraan noted there is room for it and the picture does not create un-due weight. --E-960 (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Btw, what's up with the Germanic Language map in the 'Language' section of this article, for all the talk about Germans calling concentration camps "Polish, they sure like to call Polish cities German—even when the map has English country names the cities are in German: Warschau, Lodsch and Gnesen. So, based on this article's discussion the concentration camps in Poland are Polish but all the cities in Poland are German. Very peculiar interpretation of history, no doubt. --E-960 (talk) 20:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Germans calling death camps "Polish death camps"? I can't see evidence for that here. Obviously you're chasing a phantom, E-960. Your nationalist crusade is something a group of reviewers should check on. -- Horst-schlaemma (talk) 21:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The writer Primo Levi, once wrote a short piece comparing Nazi crimes with Stalin's crimes, he concluded that the Nazi ones were of a wholly different, and worse, order, I'm inclined to agree with him. The various Nazi crimes - mainly in Eastern Europe - are possibly the worst deeds committed in Europe ever in both scale and barbarity. That does not alter my opinion that such images do not belong in an article about the whole history of Germany, any more than pictures of whatever worst deeds were conducted somewhere in the British Empire would belong on the main UK article. Pincrete (talk) 21:08, 1 February 2017 (UTC) ps, maybe it's a German map. That might explain German names.Pincrete (talk) 21:08, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Pincrete, regarding the map, your argument would make sense except that if you look closely the country names are in English and so is the legend, so it's not a map from German Wikipedia. --E-960 (talk) 21:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)