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1sheropen (talk | contribs)
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::Citing the Purdue administration public relations statements on expressing how Purdue faculty view Global smacks with bias. The quote includes "effectively disbanded", however the select committee is still in place, and it's members still active.
::Citing the Purdue administration public relations statements on expressing how Purdue faculty view Global smacks with bias. The quote includes "effectively disbanded", however the select committee is still in place, and it's members still active.
:::Let's focus on the question at hand, is the following statement true: "In more recent years, the University Senate leadership has appeared less concerned, as the new entity has received support from the body's current elected leaders—though they continue to object to not having been involved in the creation of the new university." Consider the evidence: The two elected representatives of the university senate support the university and believe the university will benefit the Purdue and they have told this to the Chronicle of Higher Education. At the same time, they continued to complain about how the deal was struck. This is well documented in the source and is enough to justify the revision I am about to restore. My point in citing the university's statement was not that that was sufficient evidence on its own, but rather a claim to test against. And in fact, there is no evidence that anyone in the senate objected to the university's well publicized claims or called them false. To the contrary, there is corroborating evidence in the university minutes that for the first time since the deal was announced, there are no longer updates from the committee or actions in opposition to Purdue Global.[[User:JA1776|JA1776]] ([[User talk:JA1776|talk]]) 15:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
:::Let's focus on the question at hand, is the following statement true: "In more recent years, the University Senate leadership has appeared less concerned, as the new entity has received support from the body's current elected leaders—though they continue to object to not having been involved in the creation of the new university." Consider the evidence: The two elected representatives of the university senate support the university and believe the university will benefit the Purdue and they have told this to the Chronicle of Higher Education. At the same time, they continued to complain about how the deal was struck. This is well documented in the source and is enough to justify the revision I am about to restore. My point in citing the university's statement was not that that was sufficient evidence on its own, but rather a claim to test against. And in fact, there is no evidence that anyone in the senate objected to the university's well publicized claims or called them false. To the contrary, there is corroborating evidence in the university minutes that for the first time since the deal was announced, there are no longer updates from the committee or actions in opposition to Purdue Global.[[User:JA1776|JA1776]] ([[User talk:JA1776|talk]]) 15:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
:::So, to be clear, if no party disputes a statement made by a PR professional, it's deemed to be true?

Revision as of 23:51, 11 March 2020

Good articleMitch Daniels has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 20, 2011Good article nomineeListed

Removal of "Danielsism" from Profile.

There is no serious "Danielsism." At best, in 2011 there were a couple of conservative pundits who used the term as a way of promoting Daniels as a presidential candidate, but nothing has been written about this "perspective" since 2011. The word is a a vanity term that does not meet eligibility criteria for Wikipedia. AoS XseedX (talk) 05:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete this now: I'm writing in Mitch if Trump gets the nod

OTOH, if you agree, add your name:

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Inaccuracies and tangents

In an attempt to avoid an editing war, I wanted to add more specificity to the changes I am about to put back in place. First, there is no evidence that Purdue Global is losing money, not even in the biased opinion piece cited. The record clearly shows that Purdue Global has many millions of dollars of cash on hand. With that cash, they have chosen to make a major marketing investment to build awareness about their school, and enrollment is increasing.[1] Saying that's losing money is like saying I am losing money because I took cash out of my savings account to pay for a house. Second, the claim that the CFO says it will continue to lose money is entirely false. He said last year that they would continue to have an enhanced marketing spend for one more year (2019). The latest statements are that that investment will end and the online university will have a surplus in 2020 [2]. Third, the claim that Purdue Global has been criticized by former education officials also is inaccurate. In fact, the acquisition has been praised by Secretary Arne Duncan and undersecretary Ted Mitchell (who led Obama's crackdown on for profit universities)[3]. There is one not credible, low-ranking former education official who has criticized it and that is Bob Shireman, who was investigated for conspiring with short sellers[4]. Finally, this level of detail seems superfluous in an article about Mitch Daniels. I'm fine with documenting these issues on the Purdue Global article but in this location, it feels like a tangent and an attempt to make a political personal attack. JA1776 (talk) 01:04, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit here reads at face value to be motivated against a neutral perspective, leading me to wonder, what is your relationship with the University System JA1776? You removed two+ sources which indicated operational loss, including a primary source. Neither 'cash on hand', nor marketing 'investment' change the definition of operational loss.
You noted praise from an education undersecretary Mitchell, while arguing exclusion of criticism Shireman who was the deputy undersecretary of education. Unless you are attached value to the person and their comments, each should be included.
The level of detail offered by the editor is consistent with other status and result narrative included in other agenda items on the page. If they are not material, the agenda section should be removed. (1sheropen (talk) 04:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
A reminder for user JC1776, NPOV: "Wikipedia should include more information than other encyclopedias, not less. Our goal is to document "the sum total of human knowledge," and censorship seriously undermines that goal. NPOV (Neutral Point of View) is our most sacred policy, yet its use of the word "neutral" is constantly misunderstood by editors and visitors who feel that NPOV occupies some sort of "No Point Of View" middle ground between biased points of view. Points of view and criticisms are by nature not neutral, and all types of biased points of view must be documented, often using biased sources, so the resulting content should not be neutral or free of bias." (1sheropen (talk) 01:55, 22 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
1sheropen I see you are new to Wikipedia with your first edits made just a couple of days ago and on two articles to date. Welcome. Editing Wikipedia has been a hobby of mine off and on for close to 15 years and I hope you find it an enjoyable distraction, as I do. The articles I've worked to shape the most align with my passions: Roman history and all things Purdue related. You make some good points about including more than typical encyclopedias and no one would dispute this article doesn't do that. But I do think there is a balance with keeping things readable. For example, on the question of "significant criticism and praise", we could list out every person who has ever said anything positive or negative about Purdue Global but I think that would be a disservice to the reader, especially when this is an article about Mitch Daniels? Could we agree to find the best single link for praise and the best single for criticism and keep it at that? I think it would strengthen this particular article.JA1776 (talk) 21:44, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the welcome JA1776, and your comments. After removing content over a few edits without responding here I worried you did not see the comments. First, the comment on including more information, not less, is not my belief, but guidance provided to editors by Wikipedia. Respectfully, I have to disagree with your stance on exclusion of information. Each of the other agenda items includes details of their produced outcomes. 1 - “ Under Daniels leadership, Purdue increased the number of affiliated start-up companies by more than 400 percent and broke the university record for patents.” 2- “The high school did not open until 2017, but Purdue reported record levels of minority and underrepresented students in the Fall 2016 semester.” 3 - “one of roughly two dozen universities to receive the highest rating from the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.”
The acquisition and conversation of Kaplan University from a for-profit to public benefit corporation within a public university system is a bold and unorthodox move, for which Daniels is known. The article provides an overview of his career and for those reasons, I would argue for the inclusion of the notable criticism. (1sheropen (talk) 04:33, 24 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]
Although my preference would be to just let the links speak for themselves, I attempted to expand this in a way that would show the types of people supporting and opposing on both sides. I suspect 1sheropen may object to the inclusion of Robert Shireman's history but this is well-documented and vital part of his record that readers should know when judging his credibility. Hopefully this will end the back and forth.JA1776 (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea @JA1776, I've updated to include perspectives of Purdue Faculty and notable US Senators who provided comment. I dont object to providing links to background on Shireman, though he is well known in the industry, and was cleared in a IG investigation on the matter. I'll add that information with the source at a later date (1sheropen (talk) 00:15, 25 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://philonedtech.com/postscript-on-purdue-university-global-post/
  2. ^ https://philonedtech.com/postscript-on-purdue-university-global-post/
  3. ^ https://www.purdue.edu/president/messages/annual-open-letters/1801-med-openletter-full.php
  4. ^ https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plot-against-low-income-students-11551485334

Purdue Faculty Senate

The statement added by JA1776 today about Purdue Global reads "the University Senate leadership has appeared less concerned, as the new entity has received support from the body's current elected leaders."

The article cited by includes the following quotes which directly contradict the text included in the edit:

  • "Matters are less settled for many professors at the main campus in West Lafayette, Ind."
  • "Purdue could have been more transparent during the acquisition of Kaplan, and it could be more transparent about Purdue Global now, says Cheryl Cooky, an associate professor of American studies and gender and sexuality studies and the chair of the University Senate. While the Senate convened a special committee to serve as a conduit for questions and answers between professors and administrators regarding the project, Purdue and Purdue Global could both benefit from more “open channels of exchange,” she says."
  • "Even Cooky, who is supportive of Purdue Global, has qualms about the secrecy with which the deal was struck, and how professors were kept out of the loop: “Faculty can sign nondisclosure [agreements] as well.”"*
  • "“Academia, like most businesses, is a copycat business,” says Mullen. There are so many unresolved questions swirling around Purdue Global “that a lot of us are concerned that this model will be replicated” elsewhere with even less vetting."

Given this new statement is not supported by the source, I will remove, unless there is objection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1sheropen (talk • contribs) 04:03, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are fair observations and I appreciate the chance to discuss on a talk page rather than via edit battle. My viewpoint is to keep the article focused on Mitch Daniels by simply saying that Purdue Global has been controversial with supporters and detractors, add some links, including one to the PG wikipedia entry in case the reader wants more and call it good. But I know 1sheropen does not share that viewpoint so here we are. If we are going to include the immediate reactions from the university senate after the announcement, then I think a current article should include the fact that the senate seems to have moderated since then. There are various evidences to support this statement:
  • There are two elected leaders of the university senate and both are supporters (though with some reservations as 1sheropen has pointed out.) One is Cheryl Cooky, who, as the source makes clear, "is supportive of Purdue Global" and the other is the vice chair, Deborah Nichols who, according to the source "sees potential for the university to reach more students." While statements like that would have been unthinkable by an elected leader of the university senate a few years ago, 1sheropen is correct to point out that this support was not without some concerns. Cooky's reservations appear to be lingering anger about the lack of senate involvement in the creation of Purdue Global rather than the university's existence or operations.
  • The faculty member Mullen cited by 1sheropen is not an elected leader of the senate, nor is he even on the university senate. This distinction matters because the claim is not that the faculty have moderated, though there probably is some evidence of that that could be found. The deleted edit is about the elected leadership of the senate.
  • The Purdue Administration also has argued"University Senate is in a much different place than it was a few years ago... Over the last year, the Senate declined to take up a resolution critical of Purdue Global. A special ad hoc committee established by University Senate to study a variety of issues related to Purdue Global has effectively disbanded after concluding that any concerns had been addressed." From what I can find on the Senate's minutes and elsewhere, both statements appear true.
The deleted statement read, "In more recent years, the University Senate leadership has appeared less concerned, as the new entity has received support from the body's current elected leaders." I don't see anything in this statement that is not supported by the source. However, I do recognize 1sheropen's point that that support is not without some caveats. To those concerns, unless there are objections from the community, I am going to restore the language but add some modifiers to the description of "support" in order to make it clear that was not without some complaints.JA1776 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking time to address the comments above @JA1776. The Faculty Senate is the governing body of the Purdue Faculty, and faculty senate members represent faculty. Mullen, who is a faculty member, was quoted in the article you cited, which I why I included in above.
In the time after the announcement the Faculty Senate showed great interest in Global, and created a select committee for the purpose of monitoring it's operations and reporting on the matter. Further, the Co-chair of the Select Committee on Purdue Global is the current elected Vice-Chair of the Faculty Senate.
Citing the Purdue administration public relations statements on expressing how Purdue faculty view Global smacks with bias. The quote includes "effectively disbanded", however the select committee is still in place, and it's members still active.
Let's focus on the question at hand, is the following statement true: "In more recent years, the University Senate leadership has appeared less concerned, as the new entity has received support from the body's current elected leaders—though they continue to object to not having been involved in the creation of the new university." Consider the evidence: The two elected representatives of the university senate support the university and believe the university will benefit the Purdue and they have told this to the Chronicle of Higher Education. At the same time, they continued to complain about how the deal was struck. This is well documented in the source and is enough to justify the revision I am about to restore. My point in citing the university's statement was not that that was sufficient evidence on its own, but rather a claim to test against. And in fact, there is no evidence that anyone in the senate objected to the university's well publicized claims or called them false. To the contrary, there is corroborating evidence in the university minutes that for the first time since the deal was announced, there are no longer updates from the committee or actions in opposition to Purdue Global.JA1776 (talk) 15:05, 11 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So, to be clear, if no party disputes a statement made by a PR professional, it's deemed to be true?
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