User talk:Jimbo Wales

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E-mail Sent Today

I have sent you an e-mail today, Jimmy, about ten minutes before this post (adjust Wiki time and e-mail time for EDT). Please let me know if you have received it, and I am interested in your thoughts on it, either by reply or by a comment here. CycloneGU (talk) 19:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I had a major computer crash yesterday afternoon, and I'm just now getting back to slightly functional. I am going to be downloading and installing Thunderbird soon and downloading my email.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about that, but glad you got back in. =) I've had my laptop crash once (not long after the year warranty, too...), and I panicked. *LOL* It led to having to buy a new one a few months later. CycloneGU (talk) 21:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Somebody is making money on WP articles

There is a publisher that is turning WP articles into books and selling them--sometimes for a fair amount of dough. The discussion below has some good examples of articles affected. Can't you do something about this?

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Another_kind_of_reward

--*Kat* (talk) 03:25, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Unless they're failing to follow the terms of the CC-BY-SA, no one can do anything about it. It's explicitly allowed to make commercial use of free content, provided that you follow the license. If I attribute properly and keep the same license for the content, I can go sell books of Wikipedia articles all day long, for any amount of cash that anyone will pay for them. Part of making free content is understanding that people can make commercial use of it (so long as they obey the license) and that they will not owe you a nickel if they find a way to do so.

Now, if someone's not following the license, they're still infringing on copyright just like anyone, whether their use is commercial or not. In that case, probably anyone who did nontrivial work on the article can nail them for it. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, come to think of it, anyone who buys those books is pretty much getting ripped off, since they could just get it all for free here. I really don't see any reason why anyone would buy those books. Set Sail For The Seven Seas 307° 12' 45" NET 20:28, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Believe it or not, there are still places in the world where connectivity to the internet is slow, unreliable, or non-existent. Buddy431 (talk) 21:42, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

There's alway's Wikipedia download, although if you can get the amazon website, you should be able to get Wikipedia. Set Sail For The Seven Seas 326° 48' 30" NET 21:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If they were selling for five or ten dollars apiece (enough to cover the publishing costs) that would be one thing. But some of those books (and not necessarily the long ones) are going for fifty bucks. That's just nuts. Having the books pulled isn't enough. The publisher needs to be shut down.--*Kat* (talk) 02:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Kat, really, so long as they're complying with the license, they can sell them for a million dollars apiece, and if someone will pay that, so be it. No action is even possible against them unless they're violating the CC-BY-SA. If they're complying with the requirements to attribute and to leave the books under the same license, what they're doing is absolutely 100% legal. Commercial reuse is explicitly allowed under the CC-BY-SA. The books can't be pulled, neither the publisher shut down, if they're complying with the license every contributor here agrees to license under. The license doesn't specify any maximum dollar amount for commercial use. (Of course, anyone is free not to buy their stuff...) Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a list of 1009 book titles at User:PrimeHunter/Alphascript Publishing sells free articles as expensive books.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I defy someone to do the math on my hourly wage at $12.63 for four years of non-stop Wiki editing :) At least I was offered a signed jockstrap. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Signed by whom?--*Kat* (talk) 08:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

While they are not the official print on demand partner of the Wikimedia Foundation, these people are still making a favor to Wikipedia.

1. They create or at least identify a stable version.
2. They make Wikipedia content citable and usable as a reference. They even give it a isbn number!

I only wish they did their work better. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 03:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, assuming that one of those four years is a leap year, then that is $18452.43. Is the signed jockstrap worth that much? Set Sail For The Seven Seas 238° 22' 30" NET 15:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

If it was signed by Jimbo, at least that. Any other member of the WMF, you might get a few hundred for it with proper marketing. If signed by an admin...it's pretty much useless other than for what a jockstrap does. If signed by a regular user...give it back to that user, he's missing a jockstrap. =) CycloneGU (talk) 16:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Poll Opposition

Someone started a new section on "oppose the poll." Since we agreed that that was not an option, should it be removed? Ronk01 talk 03:34, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I boldly closed option three (oppose the poll) as it was decided that opposition to the poll was not an option. Ronk01 talk 04:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Reopened. It most certainly is a valid option, as having a "vote" is in seeming contradiction to a core policy. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:02, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Closed again, option three is specifically forbidden by the rules of a 2 option poll. I will not start an edit war on this, but it is not a legitamate option. I have reverted to my version. Ronk01 talk 05:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It's not a voting option; thus, I have removed the words "Option 3" but left the section. I still think the section is unnecessary, but who am I to argue? CycloneGU (talk) 05:49, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The last time this was added it caused a new poll to be started. All this section does is divert the useful votes into an unneeded section. —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 9:37pm • 11:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

For heaven's sake, if people aren't going to follow the rules, they shouldn't bother voting. This is a vote, one where a simple majority wins. There's no "consensus" needed, and this was already decided before hand, so option three should be removed because it's not helpful to any cause. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 12:43, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter to me if such a section exists or not. Votes to oppose the poll won't be counted, but if people want to oppose the poll, I see no harm. I'd be interested to learn more about the reasons people might oppose taking a poll. Perhaps they just want me, or the Foundation staff, to make a decision without community input?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, obviously they do not oppose the poll on the grounds that they want a decision without input from the community. I believe the issue most of them have is that they see the use of polls in this way as inappropriate, and against the spirit of consensus. *shrug* I regret that this discussion has degenerated to the point of melodrama and personal attacks on you, but the discussion leading up to this poll should have made it clear that there would be an issue with taking things in this direction. It is unfortunate, but not surprising. Revcasy (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I did not make a personal attack, maybe my comment could have been slightly more civil, and I apologise for that. All I was saying is you have the ability to read, so read what people's reasons are, rather than speculating on them. I'd rather if you didn't accuse me of making personal attacks, as a comment like that coming from you will be taken as the truth whatever. I've also seen you accuse two (or maybe the same person twice, I don't recall) other users of making personal attacks recently, when it was questionable as to if those were actually attacks. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 21:00, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

"If you are capable of reading" was a snarky personal attack. Thank you for apologizing for it. The main thing I want to emphasize here is that I am very eager to read everything, to respond to everything, but of course like anyone, I am sure I will miss some things.

As long as we are discussing this, I'd like to talk about another statement that you made recently that I found both false and unfair to me: "Yes, it would be fine it Jimbo just came straight up and said that he was overriding consensus. But he hasn't, he keeps trying to hide behind consensus." I am not overriding consensus, and I am not hiding behind consensus. I am firmly and adamantly vocal that the will of the community (the entire community, not just a vocal minority) must be respected, and further that for this feature to be accepted permanently, it needs to achieve consensus. I am strongly supportive of our traditions, including revising and improving in an effort to address concerns and gain consensus. Consensus is a process, not a one-time vote, and it involves a long process of serious dialog about this: what is great about it, what is bad about it, how it can be improved, what metrics we should be thinking about in coming to decisions, etc. I'm very opposed to the notion that pursuing that kind of process amounts in any way to me "overriding consensus". I don't think those who are opposed to PC do their position much justice by taking that approach - instead you might want to take a look at the perfectly sensible reasons that those who supported it, supported it, and think about how to achieve those goals while at the same time lessening whatever negative impacts there are.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

It was uncivil, I admit, and I apologise for that. It wasn't a personal attack, and it wasn't meant to be taken as me saying you couldn't read. Rather as me saying you can read, and you should utilise that ability, rather than speculate (why speculate on the community's feelings, when you could just read them?). I appreciate the time you're putting in to actually discussing this with volunteers, and also that it's easy for you to miss things, but I think you're doing a good job of following up threads atm :). It appears to me, that you say you support consensus, but then you use polls and ignore the minority, which seems to be trying to give the false impression of following consensus, when really you're not. I'm very pleased to see here, in this discussion, you show understanding for what consensus is, most of the users I've spoken to seem to think it involves numbers and can be measured with them. However, what I really want to see is you actually putting this into practice. How does a poll passing with 50% without anybody listening to the discussion (rather just counting the numbers) promote consensus? In the poll you want users not to take part in dialogue, here you say dialogue is important. Which is it? What you say or what you actually do? It's no surprise that I get the impression that you are saying you have consensus, when you don't (i.e. "hiding behind a false "consensus""). I don't think you are overriding consensus, I think you are trying to make it look like consensus supports you when it doesn't (a majority of editors support you, not consensus). However, some users at that discussion were suggesting that as you could 'technically override consensus, that we should ignore it (when actually you've said we shouldn't). Sorry for the ramble :). Best, - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 21:35, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate that we are having this dialog. I particularly appreciate the opportunity to respond to some of your points, particularly where I think you've overlooked some facts. First, polls are a part of our traditions and I make no apologies for using them. I'm a big fan of our particular way of doing polls, with comments. Therefore, when you say "In the poll you want users not to take part in dialogue" you say something that simply isn't true. Indeed, I specifically wrote: "Brief comments are, as always, welcomed and will guide community thinking. " This is quite normal for any poll, very much in line with our traditions. I am strongly encouraging people to talk, to focus on what is wrong with PC and how to make it better.

Second, you say that I am "ignoring the minority" - but I am not. I'm working very hard to find ways to accommodate everyone, through a cycle of discussion/polling/requesting software improvements, etc. There is simply no sense in which anything I am doing is about ignoring the minority. I have stated several times that the minority opposition raised valid points that the new version of the software needs to address, and I also think that there are some other valid concerns which aren't about software but about policy, and those needs to be addressed. My goal is to get to consensus, which means to find a way to preserve the positive points that the majority sees, while resolving the valid complaints that the minority have raised. There is no magic wand to make that happen, and I don't believe that the right approach to getting to consensus would have been to say "Oh, ok, 35% oppose it, so let's drop it forever". No, when I see 35% of the community opposing something, I know that there is plenty that needs to be fixed.

Third, you say that is is not surprise that you get the impression that I am saying I have consensus, when I don't. Well, to me it is a huge surprise :-) , since I have not said even once that I have consensus. Indeed, I have said repeatedly that PC doesn't have consensus. I am working to accommodate everyone, I am working to build consensus, I can't understand where anyone would get the idea that I'm claiming consensus. Quite possibly I would recommend reading what I have to say, rather than what other people have said that I say or claim that I mean. I won't embarrass anyone right now, but let me say: there have been some real whoppers thrown around.

And finally, the question about the 50% poll. This is just a quick poll to get a reading on a relatively unimportant point about what to do between now and the new version, which is due out on November 9th. Due to the poor construction of the PC trial poll, including ambiguity about what was supposed to happen at the end, there arose a valid question as to whether it is supposed to be turned off. Some have taken a hyper-technical definitional approach, and seem more or less inconsolable, that the trial should have been switched off. Others think it should be left on. There's no obvious answer, but rather than me making a decision by fiat, I thought it better to just take a quick reading to see how people feel about it. I think that's in the spirit of cooperation, dialog, democratic decision-making, etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:14, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it was poor construction at all to say that a two-month trial should last two months, and it is far from hypertechnical to point that out. A two-month trial lasts two months, and, after the trial is complete, one analyzes the results. A major part of a trial being "complete" is shutting it off. I strongly suggest that when you begin the next trial, one of the features of the new protection software is that it prevents any protection state from lasting past the end of the trial period. That way, when the trial ends, the trial protection state will automatically and simultaneously be undone.—Kww(talk) 23:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we can implement that feature into the software, but a bot could do it easily enough, I'm sure, if that's what we decide to do. I can tell you this much: the trail of the next version will come with very clearly specified outcomes based on a variety of vote outcomes. The dates of the poll will be specified in advance, and a date for action will be specified in advance. Ambiguity is not good.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:46, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I thought the November 9th trial had an end-date of December 31? Or is the end date again not an end date? Incorporating it directly into the protection interface should be pretty trivial: compute the end date of the protection, and, if it is after Dec. 31, 2010, set the end date to Dec. 31, 2010.—Kww(talk) 00:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

You might want to go back and re-read what I have said about the dates, as you have got it all wrong. November 9th is when the Foundation hopes to deliver new software. At some point soon after that, we can begin a trial of it. December 31st is the day by which, if the Foundation has not delivered new software, we will have another poll on what to do in the meantime - based on whatever information we have available at that time. There is no guarantee that there will be an endpoint at which the feature is turned off - that will depend on the outcome of the vote. If we again get strong support - stronger than we got last time, but still not to consensus, then it will make no sense to *automatically* turn it off at that time. Imagine, for example, that it gets to 75% support and with 25% still requesting additional software/policy changes. Then it's pretty darn good, and we are on the right track, and we wouldn't want to turn it off then - we'd also not want to say to the Foundation that we accept it as the permanent version, and we'd ask them for another round of changes. That process of back and forth improvement along with discussion and debate is what consensus is all about. On the other hand, if the new version and our experiences with it give rise to a drop in support, then it can make sense to talk about turning it off while we really go back to the drawing board.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, to be quite honest with you, that's really not acceptable. I know my idea on this, and I'm not the only one, was that when we agreed to a trial, "trial" means what it commonly means—we try it out, we shut it off at the end of the trial period, then we discuss where to go from there (be that that we're done with it for good, we're willing to trial a new version with improvements, there's consensus to turn it on permanently, whatever the discussion comes to). While it may not be your intent, a lot of people are feeling quite betrayed and ignored here. There wasn't consensus to continue. Given that, well—it was a trial. It needs to go off until and unless there's true consensus for another trial, or there's true consensus to turn it on permanently. I don't think anyone expected a nose-counting vote to determine the outcome of this, with a simple majority allowing it to stay on indefinitely, and if there was going to be such a radical departure, we should've known that before we agreed to the trial. I for one wouldn't have agreed to the trial at all if I knew it was going to be run like this, and I strongly doubt I'm the only one. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:00, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be mistaken about one important fact. The current poll, which is running roughly 61% in favor of leaving it on during the interim while we wait for the next version to be released, is not a poll to leave it on "indefinitely". I agree with you completely that the first trial and poll caused a lot of problems by being poorly constructed. But I promise you, there is nothing "indefinite" about the current vote, and I promise you, the poll at the end of the second trial will have absolutely clear specifications for what is to happen next.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:11, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Can you promise us that if it's called a two (or whatever) month trial it'll last for two (or whatever) months, and not longer? Because a lot of the anger has been caused by the novel use of "two months" to mean "rather longer than two months and with no definite end date". Or, put another way, people feel misled (and that's putting it kindly). DuncanHill (talk) 01:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can promise you that the dates and outcomes will be well-specified so that we don't have to have this kind of conversation again next time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 01:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I don't have much opinion on this one way or the other. I'm not very computer savvy, and really never had the time to figure out exactly how to use the pending changes. I do, however, find polls to be a good way to measure what the differing views are, especially when discussions become as long and drawn-out as this one. I can't remember witnessing a time on Wikipedia when one was used for any other such purpose. That being said, consensus is a group coming to a compromise about the best way to procede toward a common goal. While it is not the same a majority vote, consensus is also not the same as unanimity. It is impossible to please everyone, but it is possible to listen to valid concerns of both the minority and the majority, and to work toward a solution that can be acceptable to most, if not all. I think Mr. Wales puts a lot of effort into that, probably more so that many of us are willing to do in return. Zaereth (talk) 01:41, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Re: Straw poll

Hi Jimbo, in regards to the straw poll, can I ask if you meant for option 1 to be close and option 2 to be keep or was that an unintentional mistake? I just thought I'd ask since the options (Close and Keep) were switched around after you made the poll. Regards, —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 9:29pm • 11:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm unclear what you are asking, but anyway, it seems fine to me now. I don't think the ordering makes any material difference.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:12, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh ok, I just thought that you might have ordered it that way for a reason. Regards, —Ғяіᴆaз'§Đøøм • Champagne? • 9:31am • 23:31, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Watchlist

I have the Strall poll in my watchlist and it's weird seeing your name. THanks anyway.--intelati^(Call) 01:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Wikiquote talk

Hi Jimbo. You have mail at your Wikiquote talkpage (regarding a matter that the community there has been studiously ignoring). ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:25, 22 September 2010 (UTC)