User talk:Saflieni

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Maggie Borg

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Your recent edits

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment; or
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Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 00:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome!

Hello, Saflieni, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! sciencewatcher (talk) 15:50, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

May 2014

Thank you for your contributions. Please mark your edits, such as your recent edits to Chronic fatigue syndrome treatment, as "minor" only if they are minor edits. In accordance with Help:Minor edit, a minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. Minor edits consist of things such as typographical corrections, formatting changes or rearrangement of text without modification of content. Additionally, the reversion of clear-cut vandalism and test edits may be labeled "minor". Thank you. sciencewatcher (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Your edit added a reference, which is one of the things that is specifically mentioned as being not a minor edit). Don't worry about it - it's not really obvious what exactly a 'minor edit' actually is. --sciencewatcher (talk) 15:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Letters to the editor

Hi, I didn't get a reply from you about my question as to whether you wrote any of those letters to the editor. --sciencewatcher (talk) 16:58, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator intervention notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The complaint was unwarranted and that discussion is now closed find in favour of Saflieni --Leopardtail (talk) 14:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks you for work

Thanks for you recent efforts to improve the quality of the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Treatment page. They are greatly appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leopardtail (talk • contribs) 14:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

December 2020

HouseOfChange, I have asked you not to take your Wikipedia-wide campaign to discredit me to my Talk page. Save your manipulations for the administrators. Saflieni (talk) 09:15, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks

I thought I could use some time during the holidays to prepare my case for Arbcom, but a count of untruthful statements (if this an appropriate term) produces a total of 103 incidents in the Noticeboard discussion alone: 48 by HouseOfChange, 4 by Buidhe, 3 by Drmies as quoted by Buidhe, 24 by Drmies in his own comments and 6 by EdJohnston (not counting other commenters). It's going to be a Herculean task to describe them all. The incidents involving the two admins escalated from fairly simple miscommunications, so rather than writing a book size report we could examine the origins of the dispute and resolve the matter informally.Saflieni (talk) 01:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

From the way the dispute was handled by the administrators I got the impression that on Wikipedia it's ok to lie [1] but that the word "lie" itself is considered uncivil and that using that word to describe a lie is considered a personal attack. I understand the middle part - that the word is confrontational and therefore best avoided - but the rest still seemed odd. However, reading up on Wikipedia policy I notice that according to WP:IUC lying is listed as contributing to an uncivil environment. So are several other behaviours I've experienced that were condoned by the administrators, who in some cases were themselves the culprits. Although I agree with the slap on the wrist I've received for using uncivil language, I feel that applying double standards is unjust and sends the message that not all Wikipedians are equal. The behaviours I'm referring to are emphasized below:

1. Direct rudeness

(a) rudeness, insults, name-calling, gross profanity or indecent suggestions

(b) personal attacks, including racial, ethnic, sexual, disability-related, gender-related and religious slurs, and derogatory references to groups such as social classes or nationalities

(c) ill-considered accusations of impropriety

(d) belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgemental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. "that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen", "snipped crap")

2. Other uncivil behaviours

(a) taunting or baiting: deliberately pushing others to the point of breaching civility even if not seeming to commit such a breach themselves. All editors are responsible for their own actions in cases of baiting; a user who is baited is not excused by that if they attack in response, and a user who baits is not excused from their actions by the fact that the bait may be taken.

(b) harassment, including Wikihounding, bullying, personal or legal threats, posting of personal information, repeated email or user space postings

(c) sexual harassment

(d) lying

(e) quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they said something they didn't say Saflieni (talk) 12:45, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How not to debate the trivial and the major issues.

Example 1: My translation of the french phrase 'les théories du complot' into 'conspiracy theories' led to four weeks of obstructions, denial, and bad faith accusations

The Wikipedia article In Praise of Blood (about a book that promotes fringe theories) contained this sentence originally:

"During a promotional tour in Belgium which included speeches at three universities, a group of sixty scientists, researchers, journalists, historians and eye-witnesses such as Romeo Dallaire, published an open letter in Le Soir criticizing the universities for giving the impression that by promoting Judi Rever's book they supported her conspiracy theories and denial."

Contributor HouseOfChange, in his very first edit of that page, deleted "conspiracy theories and denial" and replaced it with "double genocide theory".[2] In the edit summary HoC wrote: "BLP, NPOV". No further explanation.

Because HoC's edit introduced an error, I restored the original version of that sentence and pinged HoC to come and discuss the matter on the Talk page. In reply HoC wrote: "My edits were clearly explained in edit summaries based on Wikipedia policies such as WP:BLP and WP:NPOV." No further explanation again, so I answered: "You change "conspiracy theories and denial" to "double genocide theory" but the source speaks of conspiracy theories and denial in this context." Next HoC started to accuse me of "edit-warring" and of "repeated efforts to WP:OWN this article."

It took until the ANI complaint for HoC to finally explain: "My first edit to the article (21:21, 2020 November 30) tried to change what I saw as a serious BLP issue: using Wikipedia's voice to accuse a living person of "conspiracy theories and denial." In haste, I changed the phrase to something less pejorative."

So HoC assumed it was me who accused the author of "conspiracy theories and denial" instead of the sixty experts who wrote that in their open letter.

HoC further stated that "... "conspiracy theories and denial" is not a (translated) phrase taken from the source. Paragraph 4 (which you need to subscribe to Le Soir in order to see) comes close, quoting the group letter as saying "En promouvant les théories du complot de Judi Rever, vous avez donné lʼimpression de soutenir le négationnisme et le déni." Why make claims about sources without checking first what they say?"

This is the most curious part: According to HoC I was telling more than one Lie, but he himself quotes the source saying "les théories du complot" which literally means "conspiracy theories", and "le négationnisme et le déni" which literally means "negationism and denial". One may disagree with the way I paraphrased, but to accuse me of making up the phrase "conspiracy theories" myself is a serious accusation that questions my integrity. In this context it's ironic that HoC himself inserted a phrase which the experts did not use in their criticism of the universities.

To make matters worse: A week before HoC falsely accused me on the Noticeboard, I had already suggested a compromise to move beyond the issue:[3]

HoC accepted the compromise, but continued with his false claims: "Basing your edits on unpublished earlier sources or translations is OR, and "citing" them to a published source that says something different is wrong." [4] In the edit summary HoC wrote: "applauding the good suggestion, rejecting misrepresentation of the source"."

HoC "apologized" not for his false accusations but for "not explaining Wikipedia policy" with more tact:

"To clarify, Saflieni stated above The original version ended in "... her conspiracy theories and denial." This was paraphrased after translation from a sentence in the source which criticized the universities, and contained the phrases "les théories du complot" (conspiracy theories) and "le négationnisme et le déni." (negationism and denial), but not "theory of double genocide". From this, I got the impression Saflieni was basing his claims "the original version" or maybe "the translation," rather than from the published version cited. I apologize for not being more tactful in my explanation that to do so would be against policy." HoC hides the apology from view with an "extended content" banner.[5]

So after nearly four weeks of pointless debate over the meaning of "les theories du complot" with the ongoing attacks against my integrity it turns out that HoC has misunderstood that my reference to the "original version" was to the sentence in the Wikipedia article and that the campaign to discredit me was based on a wrong "impression".

The sad thing is that it's business as usual.

Example 2: My arguments that the fringe theories in the book have no basis in science led to weeks of obstructions, circular reasoning and bad faith accusations

The big issues are discussed in pretty much the same way as the trivial ones. See the endless debates about fringe theories such as the double genocide theory. HoC argues that the book doesn't use that exact phrase, or that the title of the book says something else, or that the phrase is "jargon" and therefore must not be used in the article, and so on. But Rever describes a Hutu genocide in her book that allegedly occurred alongside the Tutsi genocide, which makes up a double genocide. And Rever says in interviews and on twitter that she adheres to the double genocide theory. All experts with just a few exceptions reject that theory, whether they use the phrase double genocide or just reject the Hutu genocide (which reduces double genocide to single genocide). Trying to dodge this reality is not helping the article.

HoC's latest claim: "Rever does NOT say that there was an equal and opposite killing of Hutus and Tutsis--she says that Hutus were killed by the RPF not by their neighbors." [6]

But Rever claims: "(…) a growing body of evidence now shows that Tutsi civilians betrayed and killed their Hutu neighbors in the same way that Hutus turned on Tutsis. The dynamic at work was chillingly similar.” (IPOB, p. 106)

And Rever claims: “These Tutsis -both abakada and civilians loyal to the RPF government and army- committed unspeakable atrocities against Hutus, crimes comparable to those committed by Hutu civilians and lnterahamwe.”

I have already shown HoC these quotes on the Talk page as well as the ones where Rever claims similar death tolls. And so we go around in circles until eternity. Saflieni (talk) 03:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saflieni Where do you see an attack on you in my statement My first edit to the article (21:21, 2020 November 30) tried to change what I saw as a serious BLP issue: using Wikipedia's voice to accuse a living person of "conspiracy theories and denial."? I had no idea who had inserted that phrase into the article, and I did not care who had done it. My concern was the BLP issue, as I said.

This is an article about a book, which is about RPF crimes, including what Rever calls a genocide by RPF against Hutus. The book does not describe a back-and-forth equal double genocide. (It is WP:SYNTH to infer from cherry-picked quotes that Rever personally supports this discredited theory.) In the BOOK, Rever acknowledges the 1994 genocide against Tutsis, incited and pre-planned by Hutu leadership, but largely carried out by Hutu civilians. Understandably, many Tutsis wanted to ally themselves with the Tutsi-led RPF against the Hutu government seeking their deaths, and understandably some Tutsis also sought revenge against Hutu neighbors. Even if the "dynamic" or the "atrocities" were similar, the scale was not, according to the book. The largescale killing of Hutus was carried out, her book repeatedly says, by the RPF. The book accuses the RPF, not ordinary Tutsis, of a genocide against Hutus. HouseOfChange (talk) 03:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said: until eternity ... If Rever's own statements aren't enough, what's left? Naturally, HoC has to add more false accusations: "WP:SYNTH"; "infer from cherry-picked quotes". The one-sided discussion HoC is conducting on the article's Talk page continues the same pattern:

HouseOfChange: "[Rever] also says that some Tutsis took revenge against Hutu neighbors. That small-scale killing, deplorable as it may be, she does not describe as an "equal and opposite" genocide." [7]

But Rever writes: "In many cases the Tutsis involved in the killings were not seeking to avenge the death or mutilation of their families. Some of the worst Tutsi-on-Hutu violence was preemptive, occurring early and in areas where no crimes against Tutsis had yet been reported ..." (IPOB, p. 106)

And Rever writes: "Tutsi civilian cadres worked hand in hand with Kagame's intelligence agents to locate and kill prominent Hutus and their families and supporters. Despite the claim by Western human rights organizations and media that there can be no moral equivalence between the two sides, Hutus in RPF-controlled areas faced similar risks of annihilation as Tutsis did in Hutu-controlled areas." (p. 228)

And Rever writes: "Hutu extremists called killing Tutsi civilians "work." It is the same word Tutsi extremists used to describe exterminating Hutus." (p. 230)

And I could go on quoting her or scholars commenting but no amount of evidence is ever enough to satisfy HoC of the fact that HoC's POV is an extremely isolated minority view. And now HoC has proceeded to add "background" information even though HoC is not a specialized historian and someone will have to come in to correct his edits, starting the whole cycle all over again. That's why I keep referring to Wikipedia's advice on competence WP:CIR and the Dunning Kruger effect (which btw is misrepresented as well here on Wikipedia). But who's listening?

Don't post anymore untruthful statements or suggestions, like I asked you before.Saflieni (talk) 13:45, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please stop attacking me on your talk page?

Long before Habyarimana's plane crashed, many Tutsis had plenty of reason for wanting revenge on Hutu neighbors. Hutus killed Tutsis en masse and exiled hundreds of thousand of Tutsis during the Rwandan Revolution. Revenge was for 1959, according to at least one Rever informant. (Rever, p. 232)

I have not seen any quote where Rever says that genocide against Hutus was carried out by Tutsi civilians rather than saying genocide against Hutus was carried out by the RPF. Or any quote where Rever says that Tutsi civilians killed Hutu civilians in NUMBERS similar to the numbers of Tutsis killed by Hutu civilians. It seems pointless to attack things I didn't say.

I worry about your ability to edit constructively in article-space if you continue to focus on my ignorance, incompetence, and alleged POV, rather than on what RS say about one not-very-notable nonfiction book.

Update, I really do not have the pro-Rever, anti-Kagame POV you attribute to me. Paul Kagame is a complicated figure who has done a lot of good things for Rwanda, despite the bloody trajectory he rode to power. Furthermore, Western governments (turning a blind eye to what happened on 31 August 2020 to Paul Rusesabagina) are unlikely to care about RPF crimes way back in the 1990s. I just want to help create a balanced article that focuses on the book, which is about RPF crimes, mostly during the 1990s. Theories about the 1994 genocide against Tutsis are part of the book, but not the book's main focus. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And again ... Let's compare once more what HoC claims is in the book and what Rever actually writes:

HouseOfChange writes: "In the BOOK, Rever acknowledges the 1994 genocide against Tutsis, incited and pre-planned by Hutu leadership, but largely carried out by Hutu civilians."

But Rever writes: "The killers were sometimes neighbors living on the same hill. But more often they were members of a Hutu militia, the civil defense force or the military."

This is again very different. Why, according to HoC, double genocide would require matching numbers of civilian perpetrators is a mystery anyway.

Since the framing Saflieni dynamic is starting again I'll just delete any future posts from HoC on this page.

If HoC worries at all, they should worry about WP:CIR. It's not personal but practical. The problem isn't ignorance per se (anyone can learn) but overconfidence and belief perseverance [[8]].Saflieni (talk) 20:55, 27 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rwandan genocide case request declined by the committee

The case request Rwandan genocide has been declined by the Committee. The comments made by the arbitrators detail why the case request was declined. A permanent link to the case request can be viewed through this wikilink. For the Arbitration Committee, Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 14:01, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dreamy Jazz The request was withdrawn for reasons provided by email to the Committee on 2 January. Also see my communication here [9].Saflieni (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't seen that discussion when closing, and the email from an arbitrator I saw didn't mention that it was withdrawn. There was another email I did not see which said it was withdrawn. I have updated the log at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Declined requests to reflect this and the comment at the other parties user talk pages. Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 22:15, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Concerns About Admin Abuse

You have asked about admin abuse, and about what appear to be your concern that you are being unfairly treated. Maybe I am misreading your statements, but most new editors who complain about admin abuse and about unfair treatment do not fit well into Wikipedia. You seem to be coming across as an editor who complains about admin abuse. Either you might consider changing the tone of your complaints, or you may be setting yourself up. Some editors who complain about admin abuse are actually editors who either don't like to compromise or want to own articles or are just rude. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:35, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon Not sure what you're referring to, but a civil way to handle a complaint would be to go over the evidence together and try to resolve the issue. I'm not "some editors". I'm an actual person with feelings, thank you.Saflieni (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What I am saying is that you are complaining a lot about admin abuse, and about what you at one point referred to as a movement to frame Saflieni. Editors who complain about admin abuse and who complain that they are not being treated fairly usually find Wikipedia to be an unpleasant environment. There are various possible explanations, but that is the way it is. Maybe you already think that Wikipedia is unpleasant. If not, you are projecting the image that you consider Wikipedia to be unpleasant, and such editors usually do wind up finding Wikipedia to be unpleasant. This is just an observation. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon, Thank you for the explanation. I may have been too confrontational in my language, which I'm trying hard to avoid since the block, but I never lie. What I asked for is that admins and arbitrators analyze the facts fairly and neutrally before jumping to conclusions and condemning me. General assumptions may be helpful in a general fashion, but specific incidents have specific evidence. Saflieni (talk) 07:41, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are now subject to an editing restriction

Hello Saflieni, I've taken an administrative action on the basis of Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_by_User:Saflieni. You may not edit or discuss articles, talk pages, or other content relating to Rwandan history, broadly construed, effective as of the receipt of this notice. This should be considered a community-imposed topic ban, so any appeals should be made at WP:AN not to me directly. If you have clarification questions, feel free to ask on my talk page. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 22:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rosguill, You can't ban me over a content issue, especially one you don't understand. Ignoring my explanation is not respectful. I'll copy the discussion here:

Saflieni, Your insistence that the diff you shared in your response to me was an adequate example of evidence in response HoC's question is the reason that I decided to pull the trigger on this. The article cited in :the diff does not say that IPOB is a book about double genocide (the claim HoC was asking you to support), but rather alleges that the book has repopularized claims that a double genocide occurred in Rwanda. On its own, this could be taken as a forgivable mistake. Coming after 2 ANI threads and thousands of words of discussion, and coupled with insults at HoC, it crosses the line. signed, Rosguill talk 00:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

That's simply not true. Vidal explains carefully how the book develops the double genocide theory. The title is:

Judi Rever will not let anything stand in the way of her quest to document a second Rwandan genocide. If that's not enough, I'll repeat the quote I used to prove the point:

"It reads like a prosecutor’s closing argument: the massacres are described in such a way as to classify them as genocide. Rever begins with hints, such as a quote from a former RPA soldier stating that the massacre of thousands of people perpetrated in October 1997 was meant to eliminate as much of the Hutu population as possible. Regarding the large-scale killings carried out in 1994 in the Byumba region, in North-eastern Rwanda, another former RPA soldier claims that the leaders of the RPF had settled on the killings as a way to make the land available for Tutsi refugees, formerly exiled in Uganda. According to Rever, the military authorities who organised and committed the massacres therefore took part in a joint criminal enterprise. This legal notion, introduced by the ICTY, was retained by the ICTR. By the conclusion of the book, the hints become an unequivocal statement: “[The] darkest secret that the FPR hid from the international community is that its troops continued to commit genocide against the Hutus in 1994 and throughout the following years.”"

Besides, you ignore every piece of evidence I have posted here and elsewhere. Your diffs aren't valid as I've explained with evidence. What's the point of an ANI if you only have ears for one side? Saflieni (talk) 01:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Saflieni (talk) 03:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon, You said:

You told the ArbCom that this was not a content dispute. Now you are saying that you should not be banned because this is a content dispute.
That inconsistency supports my statement to the ArbCom, which still seems to be valid, that you, User:Saflieni, do not have a clue.
One way that clueless editors are dealt with is an indefinite competency block.

My response:

If you look up and read the previous post copied from the ANI, you will find the content dispute between Rosguill and me. As you can tell from my explanation, Rosguill misinterpreted a discussion between HoC and me on the Talk page of IPOB. As a result Rosguill viewed it as a personal attack and banned me. But it wasn't. This is the problem of editors not familiar with the subject jumping to conclusions. And it is the reason for saying that Rosguill bans me over a content dispute. Arbcom has nothing to do with it.
You mix up my Arbcom request about fringe theories and advocacy with this ANI. They are separate cases about different issues. No offense but don't tell me I have no clue if you can't tell them apart.
In your ANI comments you said that you found my information at Arbcom incomprehensible. So why didn't you ask me to enlighten you? I'm also wondering why you didn't focus on the non-content evidence which made up the major part of my Arbcom request: HoCs persistent attacks against scholars, and against me for using their academic work as sources for the article? Note that HoC added another attack in their statement: Calling out people who criticize Rwanda's RPF as "revisionsts" and "genocide deniers", (aka "genocide blackmail") is very common. In Rever's case, it has already resulted in death threats[34] and in stories such as "How Judi Rever is a cynical genocide revisionist, intent on murdering victims a second time." What HoC is suggesting, based mainly on non-RS sources, is that scholars and other experts who critically analyse Rever's work aren't just doing their job but are part of a conspiracy to stifle her on behalf of a foreign government, perhaps even causing death threats. This was another example of advocacy. A discussion of those examples could have cleared up any misunderstandings on my part and on your part, and might have given direction to further discussions. Now everyone is just throwing mud around.Saflieni (talk) 09:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was not "suggesting" that scholars and other experts who critically analyse Rever's work .. are part of a conspiracy to stifle her on behalf of a foreign government. Smart and good people have many reasons to emphasize Kagame's positive achievements, including fear for the future of Rwanda if its stability shatters. Smart and good people aren't immune from saying mean things about other smart and good people--one side neener-neeners with "genocide denier" and the other side nah-nah-nahs back with "genocide blackmail." HouseOfChange (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Really. That allegation was preceded by: In Praise of Blood is a book article, not a WALLOFSHAME about its BLP author. So unless you were posting random sentences you were referring to the sources cited on that topic in the article: The sixty experts who published the open letter in Le Soir; Hintjens and van Oijen; the signatories of professor Basabose's letter; and perhaps others you had in mind such as the seven authors mentioned in the Reydams' article you cite. Your non-RS source for the "blackmail"-remark clarifies: This crime [genocide denial/ideology] is used to control speech on crimes committed by high-ranking officials in Rwanda. The government of Rwanda and its lobbyist have managed to keep its narrative through coercion so that people who are not familiar with Rwanda simply believe this faulty narrative. And next you connect it all to Judi Rever and the threats. Saflieni (talk) 16:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Saflieni, I was talking about YOUR actions, about YOUR apparently trying to turn a Wikipedia article about a book into a WALLOFSHAME about its author. I was not criticizing the scholars whose writing you cherry-picked as support for your POV-pushing. It is a looooong leap of logic to infer (from one mention of the Rwanda gov't in one article I cited for a two-word expression) that I accuse everyone who criticizes "double genocide" or Judi Rever of being in cahoots with the Rwanda government. HouseOfChange (talk) 18:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a lot of misconduct allegations without evidence again. So, if it was me you referred to, the rest of it is about me too. Good to know.Saflieni (talk) 21:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Further unsolicited advice

At ANI, I dropped in to offer you unsolicited advice about your combative approach. Regrettably, you did not change your behavior in response to my comments (or anyone else's). The result was a completely unsurprising (to me, maybe not to you) sanction. So, now let me try again (reminding you that I have no prior interaction or opinion about any of the people involved in this discussion, nor any knowledge or strong feeling about the underlying dispute): your behavior is obviously problematic, and if you keep it up you are likely to be indefinitely blocked in short order. If you do not what that to happen, you should immediately disengage from your antagonists and from whatever issues you have been fighting with them about. I have closed the extra tail of the ANI thread to give you a clearer opportunity to do this -- I hope you take it. --JBL (talk) 14:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

JBL - Maybe I would understand it better if you'd explain my behaviour relative to the behaviour of those who accuse and attack me. I've invited everyone else to discuss the issues peacefully and have offered explanations where possible. I remember I tried with you too but was cut short. Do you want to give a dialogue a try, or is ANI a one directional, accusation equals guilt, do as I say or else, kind of place? Saflieni (talk) 14:36, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a relative question: no one is going to judge you by subtracting the antagonistic or combative things other people do from the things you do. I am not interested in changing your mind on any topic, nor in having an extended dialogue, but I think that you should be able to step outside your current dispute and make the following strategic calculation: so far, what you have done has worked very poorly (you are topic-banned, your interlocutors are not); you are now clearly marked as the problematic party in the dispute (fairly or not, it doesn't matter even a little bit); ergo, it is essential that the argument comes to an end, in order not to have additional problems attributed to you (again, fairly or not is irrelevant). You personally cannot control what the people you're arguing with do, but you can make the choice to stop engaging with them. (Does that mean someone else gets the last word, or makes an unrebutted accusation or attack? Yes, it does. Such is life.) I think that this will be the last thing I have to offer on this topic. --JBL (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why judge me at all? What is it with the people who involved themselves in this case that they're so angry and judgmental and trigger happy, with their stalking and scheming and reporting on each other, yelling BATTLEGROUND and NOTHERE 24 hours a day? It's not healthy. Your fairly or not, it doesn't matter even a little bit sounds like a great header for the ANI page because that sums it up fairly well - see [10] - but I still find it hard to believe that this is what the majority of editors want Wikipedia to be like. Saflieni (talk) 19:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]