Talk:Jesus

Frequently asked questions

Q1: What should this article be named?

A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.

Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?

A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.

Q3: Did Jesus exist?

A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

• Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
• The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
• The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

• Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
• Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?

A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

• Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
• Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
• It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
• Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?

A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

• Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
• A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
• More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.

Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?

A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?

Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.

Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?

The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?

A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.

Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?

A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.

Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?

A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion.

Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?

A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

Added at the bottom

Jesus is a religious, cultural, worldwide icon, and is among the most influential people in human history. (Reference here) - User:Sleetimetraveller — Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 21 July 2021

In the introduction it should say carpenter as well.

Not just preacher and prophet but was a carpenter for nearly all of his life but the last 3-4 roughly. 47.5.27.207 (talk) 09:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Carpenter is mentioned in the article, but IMO not so much it should be in the WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2022

Jesus wasn't born in 4BC he was born in 0. BC literally stands for Before Christ. How can there be 3 years Before Christ if he was born in 4BC. There is no logical sense in this. 81.108.218.116 (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: See Date of birth of Jesus. (Nothing is as absolute as you would like it be, and dating systems, and understanding of historical events, have changed over more than 2000 years.) General Ization ^Talk 21:53, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Jesus name

Isnt jesus real name Emmanuel 50.72.185.22 (talk) 14:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

See Jesus#Titles_and_other_names_for_Jesus. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 15:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

"Eashoa" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Eashoa and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 18 § Eashoa until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 19:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

"Jesus Christ, our savior and lord. Amen." listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Jesus Christ, our savior and lord. Amen. and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 18 § Jesus Christ, our savior and lord. Amen. until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

"Merciful Jesus" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Merciful Jesus and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 18 § Merciful Jesus until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 19:35, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Baha'i and Mandaen views

I have mentioned the views of Baha'i faith and Mandaeism regarding Jesus in the lead paragraph in addition to the already eloborated Islamic and Jewish views.Riopex (talk) 09:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've reverted these changes. Your edits removed a couple of in-use references, leaving the article with referencing errors; as well as some referenced material that went with them. Maybe an addition or elaboration about Baha'i would be a good idea, without changing existing material. -- Mikeblas (talk) 10:38, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Any reason why these abridged, basic, simple, important affirmations of Judaism's Perspective of Jesus should not also be in this article (Judaism's Perspective section), including these below with reliable sources cited: Judaism considers the worship of any person a form of idolatry, and also forbids the worship of any person as a form of idolatry, since the central belief of Judaism is the absolute unity and singularity of God. Monotheism, a belief in the absolute unity and singularity of God, is central to Judaism, which is why it regards the worship of a person as a form of idolatry. 108.30.240.77 (talk) 09:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I will make sure that no in-use references are removed in my for changes to prevent any disruption. Riopex (talk) 11:09, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Riopex's changes

Hello all and Happy Holidays to those who celebrate--Riopex recently made some changes and contributions to the Jesus in other religions section, which was reverted, then Riopex reverted, and I in turn reverted once more. Somewhat unusually, I think I actually support the changes! But given the nature of this article, I thought it best that we do some canvassing here before going live, so to speak. I would, therefore, invite Riopex to make his case, and anyone else to give their thoughts. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @Dumuzid: for your support. I thought the last paragraph of lead put too much emphasis on Islamic beliefs while ignoring views of other world religions such as Baha'i faith, Mandaeism, etc., which also consider Jesus to be prophet and the Messiah. I collected the citations to support my edits. Then @SonoCat: added Druze too which made it more accurate and comprehensive. Therefore, I request other editors to support these changes. Riopex (talk) 16:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Like @Dumuzid:, I also reverted yet I also support the changes. However, @Riopex:, the edit warring must stop. If there's a clear consensus of many users speaking out here in favour of the change, we could add it in two-three days. If no users speak out against the change, we could add it in about a week. Jeppiz (talk) 09:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't support the changes, at least in the form that Riopex introduced. While I agree the other religions should be listed, it's WP:UNDUE to include Islam as just one of the list in that way. Jesus is an important prophet in Islam, a major world religion. It's entirely disproprtionate to put that on a par with the likes of Mandaeism. However, I think there is scope for shortening the text on Islam. Something like:

Jesus is also revered in other religions. In Islam, Jesus (often referred to by his Quranic name ʿĪsā) is considered the penultimate prophet of God and the messiah, who will return before the Day of Judgement, but was neither God nor a son of God. Most Muslims do not believe that he was killed or crucified, but that God raised him into Heaven while he was still alive. He is also considered a prophet and the messiah in the Baha'i faith, Druze faith, and Mandaeism. In contrast, Judaism...

DeCausa (talk) 09:34, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@DeCausa: Baha'i faith is a world religion too, while Mandaeism is older than Islam, and both of these religions consider Jesus to be a prophet and the Messiah. Yet a whole lengthy (often repetitive) paragraph is dedicated to Islam in the lead while conveniently ignoring these two faiths. How's this encyclopedic in any way?Riopex (talk) 10:50, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

While Riopex continued edit warring is problematic behavior, I rather agree on the subject matter. If the Baháʼí Faith, Druze faith, and Mandaeism all hold Jesus to be a prophet and the Messiah, that seems equally relevant to the Muslim view. Jeppiz (talk) 13:59, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz:, in the Druze tradition, Jesus is known under three titles: the True Messiah (al-Masih al-Haq), the Messiah of all Nations (Masih al-Umam), and the Messiah of Sinners. Jesus is considered in the Druze faith the Messiah and one of God's important prophets. (see here [1], [2], [3]).SonoCat (talk) 17:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: The question of prominence in the lead can't be about the relative significance to the religion of Jesus. (Should a non-Christian religion with 10 adherents but considers Jesus a prophet be mentioned?) Per WP:DUE, it should reflect coverage in WP:RS. I very much doubt an obscure religion such as Mandaeism will attract the same coverage on its views on Jesus compared those of Islam. Although not as obscure, the same point follows in relation to the 8m Bahai's. It would clearly be a failure of WP:DUE to give Islam, a religion of 2bn adherents and an extensive body of WP:RS on the role of Jesus in that religion, the same prominence as the other religions. @Riopex:, don't add the text back until there is consensus in this thread otherwise you will be blocked. Read WP:EW. DeCausa (talk) 22:03, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I have no idea why Mandaeism is there. Jesus is barely mentioned on that page, except to explicitly say he is not regarded as a prophet. I haven't checked out the reference, but the contradiction suggests his role is not important enough to be in the lead in this article. StAnselm (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@StAnselm: as per the reputable Los Angeles Times "Mandaeans, named for the language of their writings and rituals, also are sometimes known as Sabaeans, a name they adopted in the 7th Century. Mandaean is a dialect of Aramaic, the tongue spoken in the time of Christ.

They revere Jesus as a messiah and a prophet, but not a god. He is regarded as an angel who will return to Earth, said Anis Zahrun, a physician who serves on the central council.

“Christ will remain 500 years,” he said. “Then comes the end of the world.”

John the Baptist, who baptized Christ, is the Mandaeans’ primary prophet." Riopex (talk) 16:05, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I have my doubts about the LA Times at the best of times - I'm certainly not going to accept them as a reliable source when they blatantly contradict a subject-specific source. StAnselm (talk) 16:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Why birth date is 4BC and not BCE

The date of birth is listed as 4BC which is confusing as BC denotes Before Christ. How was Christ born 4 years Before Christ?

It seems the appropriate term to use would be the more modern, and scientifically accepted term, BCE, or Before Common Era.

I understand this is a religious topic and as such, the term BC would be more apropos. But there still remains the question of how Christ was born 4 years Before Christ. 2607:FEA8:99C0:61C0:8853:6A04:333:B1FE (talk) 17:24, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I completely agree, actually, but as you mention, this is a religious article, so there is that, and also, our understanding of dating has changed since the advent of the AD/BC system (the latter of which I usually think of as an innovation of Bede?). Couple that with our manual of style, which essentially says BC or BCE is acceptable, but go with the sources and the way the article is presently written, and you wind up in our current situation of Jesus born four years before himself. I would personally support a change in this article from BC to BCE, but would want to see a strong consensus for that change, and would not be hopeful that it is likely. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Minor change to the lede

Sorry, I only saw after editing that we are supposed to discuss changes to the lede. In the previous version of the lede, the mention of oral transmission looked a little out of place, slotted between various details of Jesus in his lifetime. Since the oral transmission largely took place after Jesus' lifetime, I have moved it down to after his death, and mentioned how the oral transmission is connected to the written scriptures. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know. Anywikiuser (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, good edit. Jeppiz (talk) 23:01, 21 December 2022 (UTC)