Talk:2023 Israeli judicial reform protests

Requested move 21 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to 2023 Israeli anti-Judicial reform protests. Per WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE, anyone who object to the closer's choice should simply make another move request *at any time*. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 23:36, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

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2023 Tel Aviv protests → 2023 Israeli protests – Protests are also taking place in Haifa and Jerusalem. Might be better to use a more specific name, like 2023 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu, or 2023 protests against the thirty-seventh government of Israel. Would love to hear other potential ideas. Totalstgamer (talk) 17:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The name certainly needs an update. Could also be "2023 anti Judicial reform protests" or "2023 anti judicial revolution protests" given that that seems to be the main issue being protested against. "2023 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu" makes the most sense to me, to be consistent with the 2020–2021 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu page. Danido9 (talk) 17:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I live in Israel and people are protesting all over Israel from eilat to rosh pina, and are planning to protest even outside of israel.

Therefore, I recommend "2022-2023 anti Judicial reform protests". אקסינו (talk) 22:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

That's probably the best option, although these protests didn't start in 2022 as far as i'm aware. I think "2023 Israeli anti-Judicial reform protests" is an accurate and descriptive name. Although "2023 Israeli protests" or "2023 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu" might also be good options since the protests might evolve to include other issues, such as the potential defunding of Kan 11. Totalstgamer (talk) 23:01, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Well there is no reason for the name not to be changed Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 19:12, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

But what should it be changed to? Totalstgamer (talk) 19:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Probably "2023 anti-Netanyahu protests" or "2023 anti-Judicial reform protests" as Danido9 suggested, those make the most sense in my opinion. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Support The protests, which by the way are now larger than the page states ([yesterday figures were 130,000 in Tel Aviv alone] -- over 30% of the city's population), have now spread to other cities, even right-wing strongholds like [Beersheva] (this is not to say that the majority of the population there necessarily supports the protests, but they are present). There were actually protests in Haifa even in late December [[1]], so even the idea that they started in Tel Aviv is not entirely clear. It's not "a Tel Aviv thing". --Calthinus (talk) 18:52, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Fully support move. "2023 Israel constitutional crisis" or similar would be much, MUCH more appropriate. It's a national crisis, with the protests being one major aspect, and truly not restricted to Tel Aviv. Arminden (talk) 07:36, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article expansion

Shouldn't the page be larger? It needs more attention as well. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 13:29, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. I was going to add a background section last week but i couldn't find the time. I'll try and write one today. Totalstgamer (talk) 16:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh great! I'll start working on an events section. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 17:03, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

If you'd like, i'm doing my draft at User:Totalstgamer/Article Incubation. Totalstgamer (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

What should we do about the number?

The current information displayed on the "number" section of the protest only applies to the one that took place on January 14th. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Probably remove it, since the numbers fluxuate and it'll take time until the protests end and we can even consider calculating an average. We could replace it with a list of leading figures like in 2011 Israeli social justice protests, maybe a list of parties to the civil conflict like in 2020–2021 protests against Benjamin Netanyahu. We could also not replace it, but we should discuss this in more detail before making any changes. Totalstgamer (talk) 17:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

We could add every protest individually since currently there were only 5 of them in total, although this solution is only temporary because the protests will go on for quite some time I assume.. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 18:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

That'd make the infobox gigantic. As of now, we'd need five seperate lines, plus the protest on Saturday, and the one on Monday, and any other protests that take place throughout this crisis. It's unviable to the point in which itd be preferrable to just delete the numbers outright. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:52, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

True, so do you think we should replace the numbers with the list of political leaders? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 19:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Only if we can formulate a good one. Otherwise, we should remove it outright. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

So maybe on the anti-government side we'll show people like Orly Barlev, but on the government's side who should be displayed? Benjamin Netanyahu or the entirety of the thirty-seventh government? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

If this page was based on a broader topic (like its hebrew equivalent), we'd just mention the thirty-seventh government. But since its exclusively about the proposed judicial reforms, we should focus on those in government most clearly pushing for it, people like Simcha Rothman and Yariv Levin, alongside Netanyahu himself. What we need is good sources though.

Of note, i'll be removing the number of protestors from the infobox tomorrow, I figured i'd mention that in advance in case anyone stumbles onto this conversation and wants to object. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources don't seem like a problem for now.. On every news website detailing the protests they mention the celebrities that took part in them, for example: Ynet states Ron Huldai's appearence in the February 4th protest Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 21:13, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Celebrities aren't necessarily protest leaders. We need to use reliable sources that cite individuals (or organizations) who are intimately and consistently involved with the protests, not to mention take some formal or informal part in organizing or leading them. Totalstgamer (talk) 21:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh well there is a movement called "The Black Flags" that organizes most of the protests Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 22:10, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Here's a view from outside Israel: The protests seem to be happening very organically. Though there must be people who are doing organising, I don't see any who could be described as leaders of the protests. One point I'd like to raise is that it looks as if Monday's protest(s) will be very different from the weekly protests to date, as they will involve strikes. (I know that some or all of them won't be real strikes as people will be taking annual leave or will have permission from their employers.) I hope that Monday's protests will be described on this page. If so, the sentence "The protests have taken place on a weekly basis ..." will need a bit of tweaking. Misha Wolf (talk) 02:50, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we've already talked about that, we'll be sure to cover any significant protests even if they're not on a saturday. Totalstgamer (talk) 12:04, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

So what will replace the number infobox? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I think nothing at this point. Totalstgamer (talk) 16:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright.. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of the protests on February 13th in the Events tab

The protests on February 13th weren't a part of the weekly ones, although they amassed a large number of demonstrators. Should they be included? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 16:52, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Monday protests outside the Knesset in Jerusalem

Hi @Pdhadam, the series of protests taking place on Mondays outside the Knesset in Jerusalem is quite different from the series of protests taking place on Saturdays, primarily in Tel Aviv. The Monday protests are accompanied by widespread strike action, unlike the Saturday protests which take place on a weekend evening. I don't agree with your removal of the distinction. Misha Wolf (talk) 10:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

@Pdhadam, the statement "The protests have taken place on a weekly basis, starting on 7 January in Tel Aviv and other cities" is incorrect for two reasons: (1) the Monday protests cannot be said to be taking place on the same "weekly basis" as the Saturday protests, (2) the Monday protests are taking place in Jerusalem and other cities, not in Tel Aviv and other cities. Misha Wolf (talk) 10:59, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

@Pdhadam, I have restored the information about the two series of events. If you disagree with its inclusion, then please explain your reasoning here rather than engaging in an edit war. Thanks Misha Wolf (talk) 23:44, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

ITN nomination

Mhhossein ^talk 13:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Lead figures

The info box shows Yair Lapid as a (the) lead figure of the protests. I'm not in Israel and am getting all my information about the protests online, but I see no evidence of this being true. Misha Wolf (talk) 15:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

It's not. The protests are decentralized and mostly led by various activist organizations. Using Netanyahu is also weird, since he's legally barred from promoting the reforms for the most part due to his conflicts of interest. I'm removing both his and Netanyahu's names right now. Totalstgamer (talk) 17:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Misha Wolf (talk) 18:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Adding - Crime Minister? T576318722bb (talk) 22:54, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Supported by

Shouldn't Kahol Lavan be included under "Supported by"? And what about Tikva Hadasha? Misha Wolf (talk) 19:05, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Theoretically, the list should also include the aNational Unity Party and Yisrael Beitenu, it depends on whether their support is notable, we should also consider including Meretz. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:21, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Israeli spring?

I've done some searching and have found only one use of the term "Israeli spring" to describe the current protests, namely the article currently cited in this article's intro. OTOH, I found four uses of the term "Israeli spring" from 2011/2012: The Israeli Spring, The Israeli Spring, An Israeli Spring? and An Israeli spring?. So I don't consider that the use of this term to describe the current protests is justified and I think that the redirect from "Israeli spring" to this article should be removed. What do others think? Misha Wolf (talk) 23:47, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"Events" tab getting too large

What should be done when the "events" section becomes too big? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 22:42, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ozerkatanmeod, we could do something like 2011 Israeli social justice protests and Timeline of the 2011 Israeli social justice protests. Misha Wolf (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we should either split them by day of the week (Monday protests and Saturday protests), or by date (earlier protests and later protests). Totalstgamer (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Which aspect are you concerned about? The size of the table of contents or the size of the article?

Though I previously separated the Saturday protests and the Monday protests, I no longer consider that to be a good idea. The individual protests need to be placed correctly within their continuously evolving context. If we separated the Saturday protests and the Monday protests then the link between their descriptions and the historical context would be broken. Misha Wolf (talk) 10:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

"Israeli spring" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Israeli spring has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 February 25 § Israeli spring until a consensus is reached. Misha Wolf (talk) 13:43, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Number of arrests

Hi @Ozerkatanmeod, the info box says 39 (in total). Yesterday's Haaretz says that 53 were arrested on that day (1 Mar) alone: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-03-02/ty-article/.premium/dozens-arrested-as-israelis-intensify-protest-against-netanyahus-judicial-overhaul/00000186-9f0a-d3d5-a7e7-9f0fb2400000 Misha Wolf (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll change it to 53 arrested. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 23:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

"Israeli spring" disambiguation page

The term "Israeli spring" was used in 2011/2012 by some commentators to refer to the 2011 Israeli social justice protests. It is now being used by some commentators to refer to the 2023 Israeli anti-judicial reform protests. To enable Wikipedia users to get useful results when searching using that term, I've created the disambiguation page Israeli spring. Misha Wolf (talk) 00:26, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Title change

I believe the title should be changed from "2023 Israeli anti-judicial reform protests" to "2023 Israeli anti-judicial overhaul protests". Using the term "reform" is slightly biased since its official definition is "make changes in (something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it.". Overhaul feels more neutral. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ozerkatanmeod, I agree that the word "reform" seems incorrect, but I see a number of problems with the proposed change of name and, indeed, with any change of name:

• I suspect that any name we choose would seem biased to one side or another.
• The name of this article needs to harmonise with the name of article 2023 Israeli judicial reform. If we changed one, we would need to change the other.
• When I search the Web for the meaning of overhaul (as a noun), I get "a thorough examination of machinery or a system, with repairs or changes made if necessary". Note the words "if necessary". There isn't broad agreement on whether the proposed changes are necessary. Wiktionary gives the definition "A major repair, renovation, or revision" but gives the example "The engine required a complete overhaul to run properly". Does the Israeli judicial engine currently "run properly"? There isn't broad agreement on whether it does or does not.

Misha Wolf (talk) 23:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

You're right, however the name is still a problem. What do you suggest be done? Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@François Robere and others, please could you let us have your input. Thanks Misha Wolf (talk) 00:09, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

"Protests against 2023 judicial changes in Israel", "2023 judicial changes protests in Israel"? François Robere (talk) 10:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. If we used one of those titles for this article, would we also need to rename 2023 Israeli judicial reform to "2023 judicial changes in Israel"?

Another possible pair of names would be "2023 Israeli judicial changes" and "Protests against 2023 Israeli judicial changes". Misha Wolf (talk) 11:19, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

@Totalstgamer too Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 10:14, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Overhaul is in my opinion not a good name. It implies a complete transformation of the Judicial system, which is in its own right biased, its not a frequently-used term, and it doesn't line up with the judicial reform article. I originally wanted to rename the article to "protests against the thirty-seventh government of Israel", back when it was first written and people were also protesting, for example, efforts to Defund the Israel Broadcasting Corporation, but those have since died down.

The current name should stay, at least in my opinion. Totalstgamer (talk) 12:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

"protests against the thirty-seventh government of Israel" is actually a pretty solid title. Many left wing groups' and organizations' members also attend the protests with differing goals. So the protests' motive isn't entirely the judicial reform. Other factors like the occupation drive people to attend the protests. Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 19:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. People's ideologies vary but the ultimate goal of most notable protests (such as the Kaplan protests and 'National Distruption day') is the cancellation of these planned reforms. Im not aware of any substantial protest movements related to other issues, but they might deserve their own articles if they do exist. Totalstgamer (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Alright Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 11:55, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

69 Squadron

Hi @Dabberoni15, apologies for removing the item you added to this page regarding the 69 Squadron, but this kind of content belongs in the main article (2023 Israeli judicial reform). Indeed, there is a paragraph there about this specific issue, in section "Statements by reservists". If you consider that that paragraph needs additional information, please feel free to edit it. Misha Wolf (talk) 13:28, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Military service refusals

Hi @Reenem, apologies for removing the section you added to this page, titled "Military service refusals", but this kind of content belongs in section "Domestic reactions" of the main article (2023 Israeli judicial reform). If you consider that that section needs additional information, please feel free to edit it. Misha Wolf (talk) 16:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The scope of this article is (evidently) not clear

For the second day running, I've removed text that other editors had put a fair amount of work into, as it doesn't belong in this article. The scope of this article is (evidently) not clear. How can we fix that? Misha Wolf (talk) 16:05, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I've tweaked the article intro in an attempt to make this clear. Any comments? Misha Wolf (talk) 16:13, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree with the decision. I think these articles can have overlap, that's not inherently wrong. If a reaction constitutes an act of protest (or includes one), its likely to fit into this article. Totalstgamer (talk) 16:35, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I find that surprising. What do others think? Misha Wolf (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

PS: If the same protests are described in two different articles, surely that is confusing for both editors and readers. Misha Wolf (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

That depends on the way in which they're detailed and woven into a text. I don't think anyone's shocked by the prospect of seeing the same information in, for example, Dwight D. Eisenhower and Operation Overlord. An article needs to be a complete package that accurately represents its subject matter, regardless of overlapping information. Totalstgamer (talk) 17:58, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that that is a good comparison. Those two articles describe a person and a military operation, respectively. Here we have two articles, describing very closely related current events. Section "Public" in article 2023 Israeli judicial reform, which talks about street protests, has a "main article" link to this article. If the military service refusals were to be described in both articles, which would be the "main" article for that content? Misha Wolf (talk) 18:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

They'd be described in more detail (without a direct referral) in the Reactions article, but hypothetically its not particularly relevant. Articles providing a clear picture matters more than avoiding overlap. Both those articles describe the same event with a varying emphasis, you could also compare Dwight D. Eisenhower and Winston Churchill in that sense, two articles tackling the same event from a different perspective. For example, a version of events that treats the reservists letter as a reaction would also emphasize people's condemnation of the event, while one treating it as an act of protest would emphasize the refusal to arrive for a day of reservist service. I think we'll disagree, but for now we should just remove all references to the reservists letter and the referral you added to the lead, and await another opinion. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer, I've done some investigating.

If I type "protest meaning" (without the quote marks) into my browser, I get "a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something".

Looking at Wikipedia article Protest, I see that:

A protest [...] is a public expression of objection, disapproval or dissent towards an idea or action, typically a political one. Protests can be thought of as acts of cooperation in which numerous people cooperate by attending, and share the potential costs and risks of doing so. Protests can take many different forms, from individual statements to mass demonstrations."

Both of those definitions include everything we have in section 2023 Israeli judicial reform § Reactions opposing the changes within section 2023 Israeli judicial reform § Domestic reactions.

We currently have two articles about the judicial reform and will shortly have three. I consider that it is essential for both editors and readers to know where to go for the type of information they are interested in. Misha Wolf (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd summarize that actions fit in the protests page and statements (expressions of disapproval) fit in the reactions page. Should information be treated as relevant in both ways (aka if targeted action directly escalated from a statement) by reliable sources, it fits in both articles, and such is the case with the reservists. Totalstgamer (talk) 00:41, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer, your summary does not align with the dictionary definition I quoted, nor with the extract I provided from the Wikipedia Protest page. If we select material for each article based on an ad hoc criterion which is not in line with general usage, how are editors and readers to know which article to go to? Misha Wolf (talk) 15:48, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Your definition would mean it fits in both. If a protest is a public expression of objection, this page needs to be 100,000 bytes larger. Editors and readers will know which article to go to because different issues are at hand? if you want to read about the protests, you'll look for them. I doubt anyone is going to look for a reactions page, but they'll find it from the reform page.

Regardless, we're going to disagree. As mentioned, we should just remove all references to the reservists letter and the referral you added to the lead, and await another opinion on this article's exact scope. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer, I hope to reply later, but for now, I've removed the sentence about the reservists from the intro. Misha Wolf (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer, I don't object to handling the reservists' actions differently from actions by, say, members of the legal profession or economists or historians, etc (yes, I'm aware that the reservists might be legal professionals or economists or historians, etc) but we would need to discuss how to do such a thing.

Were we to remove them from the other reactions, we could either create a separate article about them or place them, as you have suggested, in the Protests article.

Were we to do the latter, I don't think the actions of the reservists should be intermingled in chronological order with street protests. The reservists' actions are a developing drama, with its own dynamics, and all information about them should stay together. So, were we to take this approach, we would -- I think -- need separate sections for (a) the street protests and (b) the reservists' actions.

What do you think about this? Misha Wolf (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer and others, what are your thoughts re the above? Misha Wolf (talk) 17:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @François Robere, do you have a view about what we should do with the "Reservists" section? Should we: (1) leave it where it is, (2) place it in a separate article, (3) place it in a separate section of the "Protests" article? Thanks Misha Wolf (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

The core issue is one of sorting and grouping: "Reactions to" is grouped by profession or specialty, while this article is sorted by date, since most protests weren't "specialized" but open to the public. The question is: do the reservists deserve a grouping? I think we have two options:

1. ATM this article is a "timeline of protests", where "protest" is read as a "public demonstration", so it has a place here for a subset of reservists' actions. If there's doubt, we can rename this article to make the distinction clearer.
2. We're quickly heading to the point where, as suggested by MarkBen1984 in a previous discussion, we could be splitting Reactions to the 2023 Israeli judicial reform#Members, reservists and retirees of the security services into something like 2023 Israeli military service crisis. In that case, we can probably avoid those mentions here, while linking with {{see also}} to the other article. François Robere (talk) 13:00, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Recent additions to "Caused by"

"Caused by" in the infobox now shows "2023 Israeli judicial reform", "Police brutality" and "Corruption". Judging by the news coverage I've seen, the last two may well be live issues but should not be listed as causes of the protests. What do others think? Misha Wolf (talk) 15:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Someone has fixed this. Thanks Misha Wolf (talk) 00:36, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

16 March and 18 March protests

Is anyone planning to add the 16 March and 18 March protests? We currently have a photo from 16 March but that's all. Misha Wolf (talk) 15:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I've added both, as no-one else had. Misha Wolf (talk) 00:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources

Hi @Pdhadam, I don't think that Haaretz matches the definition of a Primary source and, as far as I can see, no primary sources are cited in this article. Misha Wolf (talk) 18:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Why? Haaretz is the best and most reliable journal writing in Israel, and they are the most involved in the protest. אקסינו (talk) 01:52, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

What??? 185.182.71.18 (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't know whether Haaretz is the best or most reliable, but it certainly is a good, reliable source by most standards. And its certainly not a primary source (a primary source would be, for example, estimates from protest leaders, which appear in the article sporadically and with attribution). Totalstgamer (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Ah, true, information from primary sources is (contrary to what I wrote above) used in the article now and then, but (as you say) when this is done, it is made clear. One example is the number of protesters on 25 March. Misha Wolf (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Article's name change

I see that @Brandmeister has changed the article's name from "2023 Israeli anti-judicial reform protests" to "2023 Israeli judicial reform protests". It's not good to do that without discussion.

We need to decide whether to stay with the new name or revert to the old one. If we stay with the new name, we should change all instances of the old name, including those in this article. Though the old name redirects to the new one, it's not good practice to leave an old article name in use. Misha Wolf (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The current title might sound weird. It should be reverted Ozerkatanmeod (talk) 19:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Misha Wolf, generally, links to an old page name do not need to be fixed, see WP:NOTBROKEN. TSventon (talk) 19:21, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind reverting, but combining anti- with protest may look like a tautology. Brandmeister^talk 19:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Looking at Category:2023 protests, 2023 Chinese healthcare reform protests and 2023 French pension reform strikes are similar to the current name. TSventon (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @TSventon, I appreciate that that is the case generally. However, here we have a rapidly evolving (real world) situation described in four heavily inter-related articles, and many readers will wish to dip repeatedly into them. The user-visible article names associated with links to this article should be made consistent with what the users will see when they arrive here. Misha Wolf (talk) 21:54, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

PS: That was a reply to "generally, links to an old page name do not need to be fixed". Misha Wolf (talk) 21:55, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Misha Wolf, I added generally to allow for exceptions to the general rule. As you are aware of the general rule, I am happy to leave you to argue whether it should apply here or not. TSventon (talk) 22:26, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The protestors, and most of the media, refer to the events as "judicial overhaul". The term "reform" and is used only by the extreme right wing (though they perceive it as an overhaul against the deep state). Guy Hed (talk) 04:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not against moving to overhaul, but reform is very much a reasonable term to use. Feel free to open a move discussion at Talk:2023 Israeli judicial reform. Totalstgamer (talk) 09:44, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Anyone wanting to propose a title change, please re-read § Title change above.

Central side

Maybe we should add a "central side" - president Herzog and former defence minister Galant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.144.244.147 (talk) 19:08, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Galant (who is technically still defense minister) and Herzog aren't protestors. This discussion should be moved to Reactions to the 2023 Israeli judicial reform or 2023 Israeli judicial reform Totalstgamer (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

As @Totalstgamer writes, the appropriate place to discuss this is Talk:Reactions to the 2023 Israeli judicial reform. I will just mention that Herzog's statements on this matter have been placed in a separate section of article Reactions to the 2023 Israeli judicial reform, not grouped with reactions supporting the changes, nor with reactions opposing the changes. Misha Wolf (talk) 22:35, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

The number of supporters of judicial reform at Monday's event

Hi @Totalstgamer, following the conflicting edits to the number of supporters of judicial reform at Monday's event, I've just taken a look at the cited ynet article (via Google Translate) and it says "More than 15,000 demonstrators expressed support for the legal revolution in Jerusalem". Misha Wolf (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

All good, my bad. Totalstgamer (talk) 16:34, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm now thoroughly confused.

We have a statement in the "Background" section, saying that over 100,000 demonstrated for the legal changes on Tuesday 28 March. This sentence has a (Now 14) citation which says "over 100,000". I'm looking at it courtesy of Google Translate and am not at all sure that it really refers to 28 March. It might be describing the 27 March event. Please could someone who reads Hebrew check the original story.

We have a statement in the "27 March" section, saying that approximately 20,000 demonstrated for the legal changes on Monday 27 March. This sentence has 4 citations, which give differing figures for the numbers of demonstrators:

• Times of Israel: "tens of thousands".
• Ynet: "more than 15,000".
• Now14: "over 100,000". Please could someone who reads Hebrew check the original story.
• JNS: "more than 100,000".

Misha Wolf (talk) 13:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Idk what JNS is but Now14 is hardly a reliable source on anything to do with the coalition. I think "more than 15,000" or "over 15,000" is the most accurate label. Totalstgamer (talk) 13:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I've changed it. Now what about the statement in the "Background" section? Misha Wolf (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure why you keep changing it; I read hebrew and Now14 which is Israel's Channel 14 and is actually the second most watched TV station in Israel; has written that there was over 100,000 protestors at the march. I believe that they are the most reputable source in this. 185.182.71.29 (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

The JNS is the Jewish News Syndicate and you can check them up as well; an extremely reputable source 185.182.71.29 (talk) 15:50, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Why is Now14 not a reliable source; as it is the essentially the most prominent news source in Israel; with the fastest growth of any TV Station. 185.182.71.29 (talk) 15:51, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure why i changed it. I also read hebrew, and traffic is not an indication of reliability. For all intents and purposes, the general number from more veteran sources is somewhere in the tens of thousands. Per Misha wolf's above post, Ynet estimates over 15k, while Times of Israel estimates a number in the tens of thousands.

Some other sources of varying reliability include:

Israel Hayom (Link:https://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/politics/article/13874745) - "Tens of Thousands"

Srugim (Link:https://www.srugim.co.il/778487-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A8-%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%95%D7%97%D7%A8-%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%92%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%A8) - "Tens of Thousands"

So on so fourth. I think the best language to use might just be "Tens of Thousands". Its vaguer, but more loyal to the sources i could find, which are admittedly mostly ones affiliated with the political right. Regardless, the 100,000 figure is virtually unsubstantiated. Totalstgamer (talk) 15:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Is Now14 not considered reliable enough for Wikipedia? 185.182.71.29 (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Its reliable enough (even if not the most reliable), i've used it myself on other articles, but it contradicts virtually every other reliable source in this case. Totalstgamer (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

If anyone has any objections to the use of "tens of thousands" as a description for the number of protestors, and to Times of Israel as a source, please express them so we can avoid an edit war. Totalstgamer (talk) 18:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Protests against the proposed creation of a National Guard

I've added an item about the protests against the proposed creation of a National Guard. Though the National Guard isn't within the scope of article 2023 Israeli judicial reform, and so is not nominally within the scope of this article, I can't see where else such protests could be described. I also suspect that the next large protests against the judicial changes will include protests against this initiative. Any comments? Misha Wolf (talk) 13:22, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Totalstgamer and others. I see that an anonymous editor has deleted the "29 March" section I created on 30 March, describing protests against the proposed creation of a National Guard. S/he wrote in the edit summary "This protest has absolutely nothing to do with the judicial reform protests and doesn't belong on this page. The writer can request a separate page to include protests about Itamar Ben Gvir's National Guard". What do you think? Shall we broaden our idea of what constitutes the "2023 Israeli judicial reform" to include other controversial proposed laws such as the one setting up the National Guard? I don't think that creating a separate article for protests against the National Guard is a good idea. Misha Wolf (talk) 20:55, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the anonymous editor is right. The content should be removed, and if you want, we can hold an official move discussion on a move from "2023 Israeli judicial reform protests" to "Protests against the thirty-seventh government of Israel" or a similar name. I'll personally oppose it, but i'm sure there'll be varying opinions and it might be worth a shot.

Of note, if we decide on this move, we also need to introduce paragraphs on the Kan 11 protests back in January. Totalstgamer (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the move would be a good idea. The protests are mostly against the judicial reforms. Though we may also include a brief text regarding the judicial reform protests into a broader title like suggested above, if it's decided to have a broader-in-scope page. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Sections

The article has a rather brief section on background followed by a very long section on the events time-line. Nothing else. I suggest adding 'General impact and analysis'. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:38, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

What would that section include (especially when it comes to Analysis)? I'm not against the idea, i just wanna make sure we have a clear definition of what that section would entail. Totalstgamer (talk) 09:30, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I am actually inspired by a similar section in 2023 French pension reform strikes. --Mhhossein ^talk 06:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I see a lot of impact there, but i'm still not sure what the definition of analysis is. Regardless, we should probably write a draft of the new section. Totalstgamer (talk) 11:11, 6 April 2023 (UTC)