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June 17

Sceptre and Ceremonial mace, what is the difference?

Sceptre and Ceremonial mace, what is the difference?  Bookku (talk) 07:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The mace derives from a weapon. Was the sceptre ever used as a weapon? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously a question about the Sengol, like the question above. Currently this object (which Allahabad Museum wisely labelled "a golden stick") is used to illustrate both pages, and is called a sceptre on one page and a mace on the other. Monarchs have sceptres, while a ceremonial mace is held by a bodyguard of a monarch, a monarch's representative, or in some procession or other ceremony to do with government rather than monarchy. Hence Western parliaments have maces, and the US House of Representatives has a mace, and various houses of local government (including in India) have maces. But this tradition, derived from the Byzantines who seem to have picked it up from Assyria, might be irrelevant to ancient India. Time called the Sengol a sceptre and said that Nehru was receiving the symbol "like ancient Hindu kings", but what kind of golden stick, if any, did an ancient raja carry? Looking at carvings of Ashoka, I see only that his attendants carry an umbrella and fly-whisks (somewhat more useful). The Sengol is very long, with only a small decoration on the end, and that's a shape more typical of a sceptre (since a mace is essentially an arm-extending hitting stick with a big rock on it). But then there are things called chobs (which I found via the Ceremonial mace page), and some of these are mace-shaped (short and lumpy) [1] [2], while others are sceptre-shaped (long and thin) [3][4] or somewhere inbetween [5]. None of them are five feet long, though, and they seem to have been used by the rulers of the Princely States. So I'm inclined to say the Sengol is a sceptre, based firstly on its shape (it's especially long and thin), and secondly on its apparent meaning (if Time is right, it has connotations of sovereignty).
To confuse matters (further): I see Ashoka's coins featured a Caduceus, which was carried by messengers. There is a similar mention of the use of a sceptre by diplomats (sent to talk to enemies) in Sceptre#Greco-Roman_world. Was a caduceus a sceptre? The first word is derived from the Ancient Greek for "messenger", the second from an Ancient Greek word for "stick".  Card Zero  (talk) 11:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes @Card Zero correctly identified reason of me asking the question I wanted to be sure if mention of Sengol in the article Ceremonial mace is okay enough, though the final call has to be taken @ the article talk page.
Since more variations in names and spelling variations it might have been difficult to google all RS about ancient Indian sceptre quickly but actually ample sources seem to exist and I am working on it. Mention of sceptre continued in South India much longer since they continued to have sovereigns for longer. Since Semgol and Indian sceptres are mentioned in relation to ruler ruler ship and sovereignty, taking @Card Zero analysis into account and RS too ,I suppose, we can safely count Sengol as sceptre. Bookku (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see you are brewing up a nice new article, Indian sceptre. Good plan.  Card Zero  (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Optical illusion with McDonald's

The M-arch without the name McDonald's accompanying it is higher than it is wide. But when the name McDonald's is accompanying the M-arch, it is wider than it is high. In other words, the height of the M-arch appears smaller when the name McDonald's is accompanying it. Any reason?? Georgia guy (talk) 11:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you link to some examples? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:27, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For anyone who sees, this, please look at the logo yourself and see if this is true. Georgia guy (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at our article golden arches, observed that the logo on its own is not higher than it is wide, and wondered what you've been looking at.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see it in any of the photos in the McDonald's article. There have been many redesigns over the years, so maybe there are older restaurants that haven't changed their signs? Abductive (reasoning) 19:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Golden Arches
corporate logo
The aspect ratios of the stand-alone Golden Arches logo and the M arches of a corporate logo said in our article on McDonald's to have been used from 1968 until 2003 are practically the same: height : width ≈ 7 : 8.  --Lambiam 19:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The header mentions "optical illusion", so perhaps the addition of the 'McDonalds' horizontal band being near the bottom off-center to the right gives that illusion (to some people). 136.54.99.98 (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just passed the McDonald's on the City Road

Up and down the City Road,

In and out of the Eagle.

That's the way the money goes,

Pop goes the weasel.

The logo sat nicely on top of the company name. If the name were longer, then maybe, but otherwise no. 2A00:23C6:2417:3101:3CC6:C1B0:3BFF:3DE2 (talk) 15:46, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And if the name were shorter, the logo might slip off.  --Lambiam  --Lambiam 22:23, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]



How long does Wikipedia CAPTCHA take?

How long does a Wikipedia CAPTCHA test take? 95.151.194.20 (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

About three seconds. Why? Shantavira|feed me 07:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The reason why I'm asking this question is because when I do a CAPTCHA test on Wikipedia it normally takes me more than three seconds and it feels like it would take forever. Every time I try adding citations on Wikipedia, a CAPTCHA test always comes up. 95.151.194.20 (talk) 19:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've been here for years and have never seen a CAPTCHA thing show up. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Before I signed up, I'd get it when trying to add URLs as an IP. Don't know if it still does that now. Iloveparrots (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The CAPTCHA test still comes up when I try adding URLs.95.151.194.20 (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any way to avoid CAPTCHA on Wikipedia. 95.151.194.20 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems odd that this would only be an IP user phenomenon, though it could have something to do with preventing bogus edits. You could try a test: Create a registered user ID, maybe just for temporary use, and try to do the same edit. Then see if you still get a CAPTCHA thingie. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:40, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It may seem odd to Bugs, but it's true. To post this message with the URL [6], I had to solve a CAPTCHA of "wieldreefs". --142.112.221.43 (talk) 03:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, because you're editing as an IP. Bugs's suggestion was to make a user account and see if the CAPTCHA still comes up. -- asilvering (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
142 is not the original poster. The distinction is not between registered users and IPs, but between autoconfirmed users and other users. So making an account won't make an immediate difference.  --Lambiam 19:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And presumably an IP can never become "autoconfirmed"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With an IP there is no rule against the address being shared by many different persons, whereas accounts are supposed not to be shared. For IPs used by schools you often see a stream of good edits being punctuated by bursts of petty vandalism.  --Lambiam 22:20, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear OP, I guess you are using a VPN. With VPNs that always happens.Omidinist (talk) 02:33, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And someone eventually adds a useful comment! Well Done! DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 06:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that is true. I regularly edit using a VPN (also now), and can add external links (like this one) without being challenged.  --Lambiam 10:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it depends on the country you are living in. I have never been able to edit here while using a VPN. My edit has been recognized as an act of vandalism. Omidinist (talk) 02:33, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
VPNs are generally considered open proxies and any of those are hard blocked when known about. If you have an account and a good enough reason, you can request an exemption which will allow you to use this account with such proxies without being blocked. AFAICT, Lambian doesn't have such an exemption so I assume they happen to have used those proxies which are not hard blocked. I'm sure many of these exist but it only takes one abusive user to draw attention to them for them to be blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 07:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I should clarify I'm assuming from the context of this discussion that VPN means a free or paid VPN service that is used to route your internet traffic via the VPN for whatever reason. Simply using a VPN as part of your connection e.g. to connect to your home network or office network isn't a problem in itself, most of the time the WMF servers cannot even know you're doing so even when your internet traffic is routed via this VPN. IP blocks will only depend on whether your home network or office network or whatever is used for your internet traffic is blocked. Nil Einne (talk) 07:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When open proxies are blocked, a user does not even get to the point where they get to see a CAPTCHA. Not only can they not add external links, they cannot make any changes. When not blocked, a proxy is not different from any other IP address, so the use of a VPN is irrelevant to the CAPTCHA issue. As I wrote above much earlier, to not be challenged with a CAPTCHA when adding an external link, a user has to be an autoconfirmed user. A user, while anonymous (not logged in), even when using a static IP address uniquely assigned to them, will not be recognized as being autoconfirmed.  --Lambiam 09:47, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I'm aware of that and should have clarified the point. But it doesn't sound to me like Omidinist is referring to CAPTCHAs even if that is what the OP referring to. The OP is using an IP so will always get CAPTCHAs. Omidinist refers to VPNs but they're irrelevant to CAPTCHAs, and the OP. The OP is either blocked and unable to edit except we know they could to post this, or not blocked and will get CAPTCHAs regardless of whether they're using a VPN.

Note that while their first comment was somewhat ambigious, later Omidinist said "I have never been able to edit here while using a VPN. My edit has been recognized as an act of vandalism." In their followup, they didn't say anything about CAPTCHAs, in fact the comment suggest they cannot edit rather then they can edit but need to complete CAPTCHAs. The comment is what we expect since while there are surely a lot of unblocked VPNs, there are also a lot of hard blocked ones, in particular I expect most popular ones have been blocked. The OP is unable to edit point blank when using VPNs because they are using such hard blocked VPN.

(The precise block message will vary, some may refer to vandalism, some may say other stuff. Arguably blocks on open proxies are not just to deal with vandalism but with other forms of malicious editing including paid editing, illicit socking for reasons besides vandalism, etc. But it's not clear if the Omidinist is referring to the block message when they mention vandalism anyway. They might just be referring to the fact they can't edit and are assuming the reason is because it's counted as vandalism.)

You are able to edit since whatever VPN you are using is not hardblocked but this doesn't take away from the fact many people using VPNs cannot edit point blank like Omidinist. AFAICT, this was never mentioned until I did but is IMO important to understand why Omidinist cannot edit when using VPNs, although I should have clarified this has nothing to do with CAPTCHAs

Nil Einne (talk) 19:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked and the standard message you get when trying to edit with an account, which I think appears whatever was put in the block message by whoever blocked you, says "Most people who see this message have done nothing wrong. Some kinds of blocks restrict editing from specific service providers or telecom companies in response to recent abuse or vandalism, and can sometimes affect other users who are unrelated to that abuse. Review the information below for assistance if you do not believe that you have done anything wrong." So this further explains Omidinist's comment. They likely saw this message and this is why they said what they said above about vandalism. Nil Einne (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also I had the vague memory there was something specific which only applied to proxies. I finally remembered to check out Wikipedia:User access levels#Confirmed and found that editors with IPBE editing via Tor have a higher threshold for autoconfirmed, 90 days and 100 edits. Reading [7] and MW:Extension:TorBlock I think the way this works is when you have IPBE and edit via Tor which is automatically detected, the higher limit is applied. This shouldn't apply to people using VPNs not using Tor unless for some reason the VPN IP is also an exit node (unlikely) or something goes wrong. (Likewise anyone using Tor to connect to a VPN will only be affected on Wikimedia servers by stuff that affects the VPN since the Wikimedia servers never see Tor.) Note that this is still irrelevant to both the OP who doesn't have an account, and Omidinist who is long auto confirmed. Also even for someone affected, they will have to complete CAPTCHAs until they are auto//confirmed whether they're using Tor or not. (I'm not very sure what happens if you sometimes edit via Tor and sometimes don't, I didn't check since the autoconfirmation time difference is interesting but irrelevant to affected editors.) Nil Einne (talk) 07:47, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 19

Hello, I keep being asked questions about copyright at work because (thanks to Wiki) I know about the different CC by x licences. I have tried to make it clear that I know nothing beyond what can be found at Creative Commons. Is there a good resource anywhere for understanding different copyright rules and how they interact? Red Fiona (talk) 20:06, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article Copyright that is a good start. Not only are the rules complicated, but they are also different in different jurisdictions, for which Commons:Copyright rules by territory is helpful. For example, it gives a link to Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Australia.  --Lambiam 22:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are various help pages for uploading images to Wikipedia/Commons, such as Wikipedia:Copyrights, Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright, commons:Commons:Copyright_rules, commons:Commons:Hirtle chart, commons:Commons:International copyright quick reference guide. etc. AnonMoos (talk) 00:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Commons is already complicated enough as it is, and that's just our own rules for uploading images. Copyright laws in general, and the relations between them (meaning, which laws apply at each given case) is a topic for a full college major. Perhaps if you make a more specific question? Cambalachero (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hisham ibn Urwah Haddits

Wich Haddits has Hisham ibn Urwah handed down after he goes to Iraq? 2A02:8071:60A0:92E0:0:0:0:3C37 (talk) 21:55, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of his hadiths are listed at "Hadith Narrated By Hisham bin Urwah" in the Hadith Library at ahadith.co.uk. However, there is no indication whether they were narrated before or after he came to Iraq.  --Lambiam 22:13, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which Bible version(s) changed the place names to US ones?

I know at least one was made. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall any of the events in the Bible occurring in North America. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:36, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Sagittarian Milky Way: the Cotton Patch series seems to fit that bill. Hack (talk) 01:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's it. I completely forgot the name. I wonder if that's the only one (besides the extra Mormon books which are only Biblical to Mormons). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do Mormons use "Bible" to include the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl? Since they use "Standard Works" to encompass all of those, I suppose they use "Bible" to mean just OT and NT. Nyttend (talk) 02:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if they ever do. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like it's not normal; see image at right. Nyttend (talk) 03:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Book of Mormon is called another testament of Jesus Christ in tracts marketing to believers of 2 testaments though. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 20

The Sebastapol Bell

Our Sebastapol Bell, Windsor article lacks any precise details of its origin. This book says that it came from the "Church of the Twelve Apostles". Is this the same as the Church of the Twelve Apostles, Balaklava? Are there any details of when it was acquired and who was responsible? Searching is complicated by a Russian warship called Twelve Apostles (French WP article - no English WP article?) which sank in Sevastapol harbour during the seige. Alansplodge (talk) 08:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems extremely implausible that there were two churches in Sebastopol in 1855, both named "Church of the Twelve Apostles". IMO it is safe to assume it is the same church.  --Lambiam 09:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Ukrainian Wikipedia, the church, which was damaged during the Crimean war, served as the military church of the Balaklava Greek Battalion, which fought on the Russian side, so the bells were brought back as booty.  --Lambiam 09:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Link: Greek Battalion of Balaklava. Alansplodge (talk) 10:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Lambiam, can you link the Ukrainian page please? (my knowledge of Cyrillic is a bit shakey). Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article on the church in the Ukrainian WP is here: [8] Xuxl (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is here: uk:Церква дванадцяти апостолів (Балаклава).  --Lambiam 22:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you kindly. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For goodness's sake, its SEVASTOPOL. Because Russian/Ukranian written B = English V, and generations of ignorant nincompoops have continued to make this elementary mistake.
SEVASTOPOL. MinorProphet (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What are you, from the CCCP or something? --Trovatore (talk) 20:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC) [reply]
No, I studied Russian at school aged 12-16, and for a year at Hull University aged 19-20, before switching to French and Philosophy: but I should have stuck with the Russian, and then I might have scraped some sort of BA, rather than an OND in Engineering [ie tractor-fixing] from some now-defunct college near Oxford. Thus I am qualified to fix eg the PTO clutch on a John Deere 3050: I even possess the special tool to remove the starter motor. I can also (in theory) fix the knotters on a Welger square baler. Among my other non-mechanical interests, I have had a go at translating all of Borodin's 16 solo songs, especially "Для берегов отчизны дальной", perhaps best sung by the late, lamented Dmitry Horostovsky. MinorProphet (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC) [reply]
MinorProphet -- It's also because of the Greek root. Previous generations of educated Western Europeans would have often had some knowledge of the ancient Greek language. AnonMoos (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And more to the point, English scholars didn't know or didn't care about the lenition of the Greek voiced consonants /b, d, g/ to /v, ð, ɣ/ in late Antiquity, and continued to pronounce them as stops. So they would continue to pronounce σεβαστός as "sebastos", whatever the Byzantines might be doing.
Note also that we (still) do not pronounce "Moscow" as "moskva", or "St Petersburg" as "sankt pyeterburk". ColinFine (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On an almost entirely unrelated note, does anyone understand why the final syllable of the other Sebastopol is pronounced homophonically with "pool"? --Trovatore (talk) 21:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The other one? There are many others. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you know. The important one. --Trovatore (talk) 05:47, 21 June 2023 (UTC) [reply]
You misspelled "generations of English speakers have spoken their own language". Just thought you might want to fix your post.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The spelling in Latin is Sebastopolis.[9] The classical English spelling derives from this. Note that Sébastopol is the only recognized orthography in French.  --Lambiam 23:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And its use in the Wikipedia article concurs with Wikipedia:Article titles. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note also that nobody uses the spelling Vosporos, even though /ˈvos.po.ros/ was the Medieval Greek pronunciation. It is also not a sign of ignorance if one uses the spelling Lesbos. In a historical context, such as when discussing Sappho and Alcaeus, writing Lesvos would even be weird.  --Lambiam 10:04, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Reilly, W Edmund M (1859). An Account of the Artillery Operations conducted by the Royal Artillery and Royal Naval Brigade before Sebastopol in 1854 and 1855. London: Her Majesty's Stationery Office. p. 251.
Thanks, it was hidden in plain sight! Alansplodge (talk) 22:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Although that ref shows the largest of Lt-Col St George's bells being a single bell of 10 cwt and ours are a pair each of 17 cwt. The mystery deepens... Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they grew in the tolling? DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 21

When did Europe and Northeast Asia switch to winter wheat?

From spring wheat. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:10, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Latin has a word for winter wheat, siligo, seen used for example by Pliny here. So perhaps the question as regards Europe is, when did winter wheat become the dominant variety to be cultivated? Possibly, this was a rather gradual process. As to the US, our article Winter wheat states, "Bernhard Warkentin and Mark A. Carleton played a major part in the spread of winter wheat as a commercial crop." Based on the info in the article on Carleton, this would have played out in Kansas in 1901–1919.  --Lambiam 09:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Having driven a corn cart (beginning with a Ford 4000 with a 1-ton trailer, filling up on the go from a New Holland combine) through various harvests in Gloucestershire over a number of years, I would suggest that winter wheat is not a particularly dominant crop round these parts. There's also winter barley, spring barley, and spring wheat, and oilseed rape, for fun and games: and suppose the weather is unkind to a particular crop at a particular time of year, but favours a different plant later on? Only a fool sows one type of crop, because disaster is never far away. MinorProphet (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well yes wheat won't be the only crop, the US Department of Agriculture map of spring wheat shows very little outside of the few states where it's too cold for winter wheat though, I wonder why (Iowa and Nebraska winters are very cold by Gloucestershire standards but south enough that the wheat is mostly winter. USA produces a lot more corn and soy than wheat though for some reason, only west Kansas seems to grow a lot of wheat (wheat bread and flour is still a lot more popular than corn in North USA). Supposedly potatoes are the highest food (not feed) tons per acre crop which makes me wonder why they aren't grown more. Also do you know which grain is cheapest per pound most often on futures contracts? When I checked long ago it was oats<corn<wheat by volume (approximate volume cause a bushel's no longer a volume in America but a fixed number of pounds, one for corn, a different number for wheat etc, all approximating 1 traditional bushel) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC, corn is heavily subsidized in the US. Not sure about soy, but it might be a crop that works well in rotation with corn. -- Avocado (talk) 23:59, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
USA's corn acres beats silver medalist soy by so little and bronze medalist by so much that maybe the two are part of a good rotation. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently 77% of soy on the entire planet becomes livestock feed and it rotates well with corn. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ENGVAR alert - “corn” means different things in the US and the UK. In the US, corn = maize. In the UK corn is a more generic term which includes several gains (including wheat). Blueboar (talk) 01:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a kid the British English made me think how the fuck is corn in the Bible? The Pilgrims didn't even know about corn. Also I tried to find "uncircumcised Philistines" again but it was a less olde-timey translation this time and was wondering so many Philistines already, where's the uncircumcised??! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I surely went the same although not only looking at the Pilgrims. But I'm not sure that the idea there must have been a switch is set on it's object exactly. Spelt was one of the main pre-wheat cereal grown before a switch to wheat in the early Middle-Ages - and seems to behave well in line with the criteria, automn-sown --Askedonty (talk) 10:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Spaniards didn't know about corn either, I knew it was unheard of in the Old World till European exploration. Ah I didn't know common wheat was so new in Europe. I would've guessed 4000+ BC. Wiki says spelt is a different species or subspecies from common wheat but as hexaploids still more related to each other than common wheat vs pasta wheat/durum, a tetraploid. The extra 2 ploids boosted cold-hardiness. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So regarding hexaploids the wiki (wheat) says they're known to have existed from around 6200 BC. After that [when?] the Romans are said to rely on spring wheat merely as a safeguard against a potential bad summer harvest. --Askedonty (talk) 14:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rhyme scheme notation for Dutch poem

Egidius waer bestu bleven says the rhyme scheme of this poem is "ABA bbaba ABA ababb ABA". Does anyone know if these are masculine and feminine endings or if rhyme scheme needs to add another meaning for mixed uppercase and lowercase? Or if this should just be written as all uppercase, which is standard English Wikipedia style? -- Beland (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like it was meant to denote refrain lines in uppercase and intermediate stanza lines in lowercase. But it seems it got that wrong – for one thing, it misses out the last 2 lines, and in doing so, it misses the fact that these 2 lines, repeated from lines 4-5, are also part of the refrain. It's a Rondeau (forme fixe), and the actual rhyme scheme would then be ABABB aba ABA ababb ABABB (that's slightly different from the form described as the typical French "Rondeau cinquain" described in that article, which is AABBA aab AAB aabba AABBA.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:02, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So the sense is one already described in Rhyme scheme: "lowercase lines merely rhyme; uppercase lines are repeated verbatim."  --Lambiam 09:13, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Paintings

Enough. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:11, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm very sorry to ask you the same question, but can you help me to find the real-life models for this cartoon's paintings: (1, 2), (3, 4), 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.2.59.115 (talk) 11:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, we can't, as you bloody well know, and you really, really, really need to stop asking this kind of stuff. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:59, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • unsigned 87, there is one link called "page information" on the wiki you are linking us to. I noticed that the author of the page features therein. Looking for information regarding the author you will find a "talk" tab which is leading to their talk-page obviously. Most of those talk tabs are still in red, which could mean that they remain to be initiated. I suggest that you might perhaps start your inquiry from there ? --Askedonty (talk) 12:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have you tried writing to the producers of these cartoons? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:27, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you also assume that every building that you see in these cartoons is modeled after a specific, real building? If not, why do you assume this about the paintings? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have executed a reverse picture search on some of the paintings you show. There are some related art works and two near misses, but these are all modified.
  • #2 is an "almost" copy of a pencil sketch by a Barnaby Edwards of a beach near the village of Llangrannog in Ceredigion, Wales. Possibly this Barnaby Edwards, who is Welsh and has a degree in fine art. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:57, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, but didn't noone notice the name of that site the IP has been turning upon us https://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/The_Time-Bombed_Skyscraper/Gallery --Askedonty (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but can you search anyway, so it's closed forever? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.113.102 (talk) 21:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No we can't; nobody is interested in your stupid cartoons and your questions are annoying as hell. Stop pestering us about this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Going backward in age: Age of majority

Where does Wikipedia address the following issue? Imagine that, under law, I would turn 21 years of age at 12:00:00 midnight on June 22, 2023. I live in southern Gulf County, Florida, USA in the Eastern Time Zone. At 12:01:00, I am at home and have become 21 years of age according to that standard. Then, I go to northern Gulf County, Florida, in the Central Time Zone, where I purchase an alcoholic beverage. When I purchase the beer, it's 11:05:00 in that time zone, and 12:05:00 in the time zone where I turned 21 years old. Then I returned to my home in southern Gulf County at 12:10:00. Have I broken the law for purchase of a beverage underage? Was I 21, then 20, and then 21 again? Can you "lose age"? Have I discovered the Fountain of Youth? What happens if I died in a car crash at 11:07:00 on my way back to my home (while still in Central Time Zone)- won't the death certificate say I was 20 when I died, even though I did make it to 21 for a few minutes when I was at home? So didn't I go backward in age? And if this isn't addressed on Wikipedia, where would be it appropriate to address this? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We can't give legal advice. Some articles that might cover this topic are Legal_drinking_age and List_of_alcohol_laws_of_the_United_States. In my experience, it is the person's age at point of purchase that matters, so in your example you would not be able to purchase the alcohol, but I am not conversant on the laws of Florida. RudolfRed (talk) 15:51, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your age is based on the time zone where you ARE, not the one where you are REGISTERED.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the replies. My focus was not on alcohol itself, but the general issue of the age of majority, using a hypothetical. I did find some commentary on the issue here: [10]. There seems to be nowhere on Wikipedia addressing this issue. According to a quote in that article "time is a local phenomenon", so seems to me that you can reduce your age by crossing a time zone border.
A younger twin can be 21 and the other older twin 20 at the same time- June 22, 2023 12:10:00 Eastern (location of the younger twin), 11:10:00 Central (location of the older twin). Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These are not scientific measures of your age; they're convenient approximations of your age. What you're saying is true, but I don't understand why you think this is odd, or why you think WP should "address this issue", or what you even mean by "where would it be appropriate to address this". --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:34, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply. Yes, it is not a scientific measure of age and it is merely a conveient approximation, of course. Applying the logic above, there would be no reason to address East Asian age reckoning on Wikipedia, since it is merely socio-cultural rather than scientific measure of age. Yes, indeed, this is clearly something that can and must be covered somewhere on Wikipedia if the sources exist for it- on some page that addresses questions of socio-cultural measures of age like age of majority. I have done so here: [11]. I hope you all will follow up on this if you are interested. Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see, you're not asking a question, you're telling us that you're clever. Ok, thanks for the info? Floquenbeam (talk) 16:45, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Geographyinitiative: Are you looking for this ? It's regarding the U.S. but I doubt that you will find any serious source detailing all possible local variations from all today remaining exotic places. There may be an initiative produced paper from some entity associated with the United Nations perhaps. --Askedonty (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here a correct framing of the question you're considering, for common law areas, keyword: capacity. "The exact day on which the disability of minority vanishes also varies. The old common-law rule put it on the day before the twenty-first birthday. Many states have changed this rule so that majority commences on the day of the eighteenth birthday." (This is in reference to the edit you're linking to) --Askedonty (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the effects of your date of birth on your relationship with judicial punishment, if I remember well where the Police are concerned, the local date will be compared with that date in order to determine your age. Very probably however, after some time so in later contexts an accurate number of days might be extrapolated from your place of birth in order to determine an undisputable classification of your possible capacities or disabilities. --Askedonty (talk) 22:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Xkcd has a cartoon kind of about this: see here... -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Violence in airplane over the ocean

Let's say I break the law in an aircraft that's over the open ocean. Under which laws do I get tried: the country of the aircraft's registration, or the country of my citizenship or residence, or some other country? I assume the principles are related to admiralty law, in which (I think) the flag of the ship is relevant, but I'm not sure. In this incident, an aircraft belonging to Condor (from Germany) diverted to the Açores after a fight broke out over the Atlantic. The passengers in question were arrested by Portuguese police once the aircraft landed, but that would be the only option since other countries don't have police forces in Portugal, so it doesn't answer my question. Nyttend (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that's entirely correct. See e.g. [12] which explains why it can get complicated. While I'm not sure how trust worthy Simple Flying is, they do cite the various conventions that come into play in particular the Tokyo Convention and the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation. Note that while these conventions are specifically relating to the safety of persons or property including the aircraft themselves, I assume they'd pretty much apply to any act of violence onboard an aircraft (as well as some other things) given the risks of any violence on board. They also cite Lexology [13] which has additional details from a US and UK perspective relating to gambling. (Your question is ambigious a the actual text only refers to breaking the law, but the title specifically refers to violence. It's like you can break the law without violence in most countries including on airplanes.) Nil Einne (talk) 07:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is basically up to the captain to make the determination that unruly behaviour is likely to endanger the safety of the flight, in which case the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Civil Aviation applies. This gives the country of landing an obligation to take them into custody. If the country of landing does not extradite the offender to the country of registration (which does have jurisdiction to prosecute), they are obligated to submit the issue to their own prosecutorial authorities.  --Lambiam 09:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The OP mentioned in passing maritime law. As a vessel enters foreign waters she should fly the courtesy flag of the country whose waters she is in. By doing so she acknowledges that she is subject to the maritime law of the foreign country, rather than that of her flag state. The courtesy flag should also be flown in inland waters where a national ensign is worn. The law regarding warships is slightly different, they still fly the courtesy flag, but as a token of friendship and non-belligerent status. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The passengers in any vessel on the high seas are subject to the law of the country where the vessel is registered (the Titan submersible was not registered because it operated only on the high seas) - it's not a free-for-all once you leave territorial waters (it might be interesting to research how the law affects pirate vessels). Some crimes are so serious that the authorities of the country may prosecute if one of their nationals commits such a crime anywhere. Kudos to the OP for describing the region by its real name (Açores as opposed to Azores). Let's see more of that (e.g. Bragança rather than Braganza, Moçambique rather than Mozambique, and Olivença rather than Olivenza. The authorities there were told to hand it back by the Treaty of Vienna in 1815, but all they have done is prohibit the children in local schools learning Portuguese (you may have guessed that the word Espanhol is a derogatory term in Portugal). Brazil is so called because that was it's original name. 79.73.135.77 (talk) 09:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So should we use the "real name" and write Deutschland instead of Germany, Shqipëria instead of Albania, and საქართველო instead of Georgia?  --Lambiam 21:33, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And non-English speaking countries should stop translating the names of the United States and United Kingdom, right?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I referred to Portuguese police as a way of acknowledging that I knew about the initial law-enforcement involvement, but also to prevent someone saying "you forgot that the Portuguese are handling it". I'm interested in the state that would try the case, not in who would do the arresting; obviously you'd be arrested and initially confined by the police of whatever state your aircraft landed in. Thank you to Lambiam for confirming that the country of registration has jurisdiction. Nyttend (talk) 02:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 22

Is there a club for net exporting countries or rich exporters or poor ones?

There's clubs for nations that don't have much in common like "speaking French" and "being in late British Empire" and "being African" (I think there's one for debtors or creditors?) maybe there's one for net exporting or having a current balance account surplus? Or net exporting of larger subsets of "everything" like services, minerals, agriculture, non-commodities or food? Or countries with a high percent of GDP from commodities or single commodities making them most vulnerable to price slumps of a single thing regardless of what that thing is (i.e. without being a group that only net exporters of a specific single thing can apply to join, which I know exists)? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're a little behind the times with respect to the Commonwealth: Mozambique, Rwanda, Togo, and Gabon have joined, despite never having been British colonies. OPEC is of course the most successful commodities cartel; according to a Google search result I can only see a snippet of, there have apparently been others among exporters of diamonds, coffee, bauxite, tin, and rubber... AnonMoos (talk) 14:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See Edinburgh Declaration for Commonwealth of Nations joining criteria. Pure speculation of course, but there is a branch of the Royal Commonwealth Society in the USA. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would we USers be allowed in all the Commonwealth Games events? Or at least the ones we aren't too strong at like basketball? Could we host sometimes? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:07, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It would seem to make more sense to have a club for each single export than larger categories like "goods" or "everything". Why did they want to join the Commonwealth and why did whoever accepts and rejects applicants want them in? Would USA be allowed in if our government wanted to or are we too big? Would win too much at the Commonwealth Games (not soccer, darts or cricket though, we wouldn't win that). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Probably struggle a bit at netball and lawn bowls too. HiLo48 (talk) 23:34, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes definitely. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It would all depend upon whether the US is adjudged to comply with the Harare Declaration. I'm soooo tempted to indulge in a bit of leg-pulling here, but not everyone shares my weird sense of humour! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:28, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See Non-Aligned Movement.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 15:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There could certainly be some issues there, especially in the areas of racial equality and participation in the democratic process. HiLo48 (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

USA: Corporations that wanted to merge under Dem president, denied, but approved under Rep president.

Corporations that were denied merging under Obama, but approved under Trump. ChatGPT gave me 3 examples, are there any others?

-T-Mobile and Sprint: the merger between T-Mobile and Sprint was initially proposed during the Obama administration but faced opposition and was abandoned. However, the merger was later approved during the Trump administration in 2019.

-AT&T and Time Warner: In 2016, AT&T announced its plan to acquire Time Warner, a major media and entertainment company. The proposed merger faced scrutiny and legal challenges during the Obama administration. Ultimately, the merger was approved by a federal court in 2018 during the Trump administration.

-Bayer and Monsanto: In 2016, Bayer, a German pharmaceutical and life sciences company, announced its intention to acquire Monsanto, a U.S.-based agricultural biotechnology company. The merger faced regulatory reviews and antitrust concerns, including under the Obama administration. However, it was approved by regulatory authorities in various countries, including the U.S., in 2018 during the Trump administration.

However, I asked ChatGPT for examples where denied under Clinton, but approved under Bush. It actually gave me 2 examples that were eventually approved before Bush became president...

-Exxon and Mobil: In 1998, Exxon, one of the largest oil companies, announced its plan to merge with Mobil, another major oil company. The merger faced scrutiny from regulatory authorities, including the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), during the Clinton administration due to concerns about potential antitrust issues. However, the merger was ultimately approved in 1999 at the end of the Clinton administration.

-Daimler-Benz and Chrysler: In 1998, Daimler-Benz, the German automotive company, announced its intention to merge with Chrysler Corporation, an American automaker. The proposed merger faced regulatory reviews and scrutiny during the Clinton administration. However, the merger was approved in 1998, and the combined company became known as DaimlerChrysler. It should be noted that the DaimlerChrysler merger ultimately faced challenges and was later dissolved in 2007.

Can anyone think of any other examples? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

I’m not familiar with the topic in question, but I would strongly recommend not thinking of ChatGPT as a reliable source. Blueboar (talk) 18:48, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right, you can use ChatGPT to find claims and then verify. These are "do you know of any" questions. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]
And then ChatGPT can pull answers to these questions out of its digital nether regions. Did you actually verify the above claims?  --Lambiam 21:09, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm dubious about the claim that the AT&T/Time Warner merger "faced scrutiny and legal challenges during the Obama administration" because of the timescale: the deal was announced only slightly more than two months from the end of the Obama administration, and there's no mention of a challenge to it until after Trump took office. I'm also dubious about the claim that the Bayer/Monsanto merger "faced regulatory reviews and antitrust concerns, including under the Obama administration" just because this is a vague statement: "concerns" could mean anything, and where were these reviews and concerns taking place, even if they were contemporaneous with Obama? They were compelled to divest assets to BASF (in Germany) in order to gain regulatory approval - from the EU? Then that would not be relevant to the question. Were they declined the right to merge, or even discouraged from merging, by the Obama administration? Unless we can remember these events in late 2016, we don't know, because ChatGPT doesn't give sources. We have to search for old news items about it, and an exhaustive search isn't possible. Ideally ChatGPT would have trawled through various old newspaper articles for us, pieced together the information, and cited them. In reality it may have looked at assorted web pages of varying quality, "misinterpreted" them based on the proximity of phrases, and misinformed us in a way that is difficult to check.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:46, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and another question, have there been any 2 companies denied wanting to merge, under a Republican president administration? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

In 1958, under the Eisenhower administration, Bethlehem Steel was denied a merger with Youngstown Sheet and Tube (United States v. Bethlehem Steel Corp., 168 F. Supp. 576 (1958)).  --Lambiam 21:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you're including hostile takeovers, the Broadcom Inc's attempted hostile (opposed by the Qualcomm board) takeover of Qualcomm was blocked by Trump's executive order. Nil Einne (talk) 21:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note I mentioned that as it's an example of an attempt to combine two fairly large companies which may have been a merger if the Qualcomm board had agreed to it. There must be many smaller acquisitions which are blocked for various reasons during most modern presidencies e.g. the Chicago Stock Exchange or Lattice Semiconductor are two others under the Trump administration. Nil Einne (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Before Robert Bork sabotaged anti-trust law ca. 1980, it was reasonably common. Teddy Roosevelt was a big "trust-buster"... AnonMoos (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given that such mergers often require prolonged scrutiny and argument before eventually being approved, or not, it may be that refusal under one administration followed by approval under a later one in part reflects merely these prolonged procedures against the background of short(ish) 4-year presidential terms. Have you compared your list with such mergers refused under a Republican president and later approved under a Democrat(ic?) one? Beware of Confirmation bias. (Apologies for my uncertainty over US political terms – we Brits are somewhat oblivious of US nuances). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 46.65.228.117 (talk) 07:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Federal Funds Rate:

The U.S. federal reserve raises the federal fund rate, the rate at which banks borrow from other banks. But is it mostly smaller banks borrowing from bigger banks? Do big banks borrow from small banks?

Also, is it incongruent for 2 banks to borrow from each other? A and B. Is there benefit to that? The only way I think of is as a loop, bank A borrows from bank B, who borrows from bank C, who borrows from bank D, but bank D borrows from bank A.

JPMorgan is currently the largest and richest bank, in terms of assets and etc., does it borrow from smaller banks? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:41, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

1) The Fed Funds rate is the rate at which the FED lends money to financial institutions; interbank rates are different. 2) Everyone borrows; no exceptions. Almost all interbank lending is to cover short-term (e.g., overnight) shortfalls in required minimum capital balances / ratios. 3) At 9am, Bozo Bank is short $30 million, and borrows from Clown Financing Co. At noon, Bozo gets a large cash injection (e.g., sells off a mortgage portfolio), and pays back the Clowns. But, Clown ran into a bit of “market misadventure” and needs more, so having established some good will with the Bozos, it borrows $20 million overnight. Mix in another bank, rinse and repeat. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

U.S. federal reserve: core inflation, CPI inflation, and PCE inflation.

I recall the U.S. federal reserve looks at core inflation the most, for determining whether or not to raise interest rates or not. Which 1 of these takes into account the prices of cars, car loans, and car insurance the most?

Also, is prices of cars, and prices of homes, are parallel? Meaning they go up and down together, or they are pretty independent of each other? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:47, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

The categories Motor vehicles and Housing have a slightly larger weight in the CPI than in the PCE; see Personal consumption expenditures price index § Comparison to CPI. The PCE is the preferred measure by the Federal Reserve of core inflation; see Core inflation § Usage. For a somewhat meaningful comparison of the price developments of cars and homes (which is fraught with difficulties anyway because either covers a huge range, and what was a typical car or home ten ot twenty years ago may not be so typical today) you'd have to correct for inflation.  --Lambiam 20:51, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good response. Add: real estate is fundamentally local, whereas vehicles are somewhat more widespread. I don’t mind buying a car from a place I wouldn’t want to live.DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Corporations II question.

Can anyone think of any companies where B bought A, then C bought B and split A back into it's own company?

That happened with Dole juice. It was bought by a bakery company in 1932 (Dole was then called Hawaiian Pineapple Company). But the bakery company struggled financially and was bought by a private billionaire in 1985, David H. Murdock. Then in 1996, the private billionaire split Dole into its own company again, but the bakery company was no longer a bakery company, it was now a real estate company. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 19:01, 22 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

You need to look for companies that merged but were required to divest of a subsidiary. I'd look at supermarket and bank mergers for examples. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 18:54, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 23

French and Chinese, the world's only real cuisines

I've read in various places that "some say" French and Chinese cuisines are the only two "real" cuisines in the world, which would imply that any other cuisines are just imitations or derivatives of these two. Does anyone know who could have been the first to propose this idea? — Kpalion(talk) 09:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please cite your sources for this claim. Saying that you "read it in various places" is not helpful. --Viennese Waltz 09:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Strybel, Maria Strybel, Polish Heritage Cookery, Hippocrene Books, New York, 2005, p. 11: "Some say that the only truly distinctive cuisines are those of China and France." This is where I first saw this claim. I'm sure saw it in other sources later, but I don't remember where. — Kpalion(talk) 09:37, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a 1922 source that has, "A mandarin entertaining one of our diplomats said: 'I drink the health of France and China, the two greatest nations of the world, the only nations that have invented a cuisine and a code of courtesy.'"[14]  --Lambiam 13:19, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Doing keyword searches, I can find books that share a sentiment of the three great cuisines: French, Chinese and Turkish. Only one I found is in our collection. It is "Talking With My Mouth Full" by Bonny Wolf. She explains the criteria. They had to create their own cuisines and they had to have access to ingredients, primarily spices, that they used. That eliminates areas with unique cuisines that were not dependent on trade, such as Scandinavian cuisine or Native American cuisine. She further explains that Chinese cook the food with limited sauce. French cood the meat, vegetables, and sauce separately. Turks cook all the food and sauces together. Then, everything else we find is an extension of those three cuisines. I know this isn't exactly what you were asking because it includes three cuisines, but I find far more references to three than two. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 18:44, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Other sources including a third cuisine opt for, for example, Mexican[15][16] or Moroccan.[17]  --Lambiam 10:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That Wolf thing is "let's invent a definition that gives me the result I want" isn't it? And "they had to have access to ingredients [...] that they used"? As opposed to cooking with ingredients that they didn't have access to and didn't use? Why does anyone take nonsense like that seriously? DuncanHill (talk) 13:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strikes me as absurd as well. I'm inclined to say that French cuisine is just an over-specialized and effete version of Italian, but that would ... probably be unhelpful at this juncture, as well as too specific to a particular Parisian variant. I am curious exactly what distinguishes Turkish cuisine from, say, Greek or Lebanese. --Trovatore (talk) 19:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What many people think of as Turkish cuisine, with its emphasis on meat dishes, stems from the cuisine of the Ottoman Palace and does not represent the regional variety. If we equate Turkish cuisine with the cuisine of the Ottoman Empire, the Greek and Lebanese cuisines are regional cuisines, each with their own characteristics, just like (for example) Sichuan cuisine and Cantonese cuisine have their own distinctive characteristics. Present-day Turkish cuisine has appropriated many dishes that originated outside the current territory of Turkey, but many typical Greek or Lebanese dishes will not be found on the menus of Turkish restaurants (and vice versa).  --Lambiam 21:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Metatron?

An angel, sure

I was looking at Commons Category:Metatron for something nice to add to the WP-article Metatron (apart from Alan Rickman), and someone at some point tagged this Workshop of Rembrandt depiction of the Binding of Isaac with Metatron. However, I have not found any WP:RS to back that up. Anyone? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:43, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While Eleanor Follansbee's 1927 book Heavenly History: An Account of Heavenly Architecture after Dante, Milton, Swedenborg and Blake identifies the intervening angel as Tadhiel,[18] there are apparently sources that credit Metatron or Zadkiel.[19] Unless we can identify some other source than the narrative of Genesis 22 (which just refers to the intervener as the Angel of the Lord, also in the Dutch translation of the Bible that Rembrandt possessed[20]) as having served as Rembrandt's source of inspiration, there is no basis for any specific identification.  --Lambiam 12:35, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds about right. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I found this in Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels:
"Among numerous other missions or deeds credited to Metatron is the staying of Abraham’s hand on the point of sacrificing Isaac. But this 11th-hour intercession has also been imputed to Michael, Zadkiel, Tadhiel, and of course to the 'angel of the Lord', who is the one designated in Genesis 22."[21]
But even if this is correct I don't think we can say that Rembrandt painted Metatron. I guess you could go as far as saying that the painting depicts an angel stopping Abraham from killing Isaac and that some sources say that that angel was Metatron. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 07:24, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 24

Gardes françaises etc

  • Are there infos about the life of Count Gabriel-Michel de Vassan (1747-1834), the commander of the guards in charge against the Third State on June 23, 1789?
  • For the rebelled Gardes françaises, what was the name of their soldier killed between the mob by the Royal-Allemand on July 12, 1789?
  • Are there infos about the life of Euphémia David (or "Eliana"), the Martinique indovin who had predicted to Josephine de Beauharnais her future as empress? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.208.150 (talk) 14:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
#1: in December 1826 the Count was allotted a yearly rent worth 234 Francs in compensation of his dispossession by the Revolution ( Etats détaillés..). Regarding qualification of his position on June 23 however, I do not see how nor why the statement you're giving about him could be adequate. Isn't there a confusion regarding the person? --Askedonty (talk) 15:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, then can you search the last two?

Super Mario Bros. games

How come the Fire Flower is the only power-up (among the power-ups that produce a strong form of Super Mario) that doesn't come and go in different Super Mario Bros. games?? All other power-ups of this kind come and go easily. Georgia guy (talk) 17:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you try asking the game's creators? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shoulder angel/devil origins?

The article about shoulder angels talks about how the idea originated of a person having an angel or devil advising them; but when and how did that first become an angel or devil actually sitting on each shoulder? That part seems to be kind of glossed over. Thanks! EmIsCurious (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually sitting, that has to be a satirical story. Thus a preliminary humorous image was necessarily that of the two familiar advisers symetrically installed behind the persona. See perhaps wikt:confidante, #2, quotations. An other reason for the set to be certainly quite recent is the obvious anterior image of Robinson Crusoe and Caribbean pirate with parrots for confidents and last, the satirical story has to integrate a sock and buskin paradigm somehow. Since the Middle-Ages angels never put their feet on ground except very recently in movies mostly for undercover assignments. --Askedonty (talk) 21:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, perhaps I should have said "perched" rather than "sitting". It's not the specific posture I'm curious about. It's the pairing of the two (angel and devil) and the "shoulder" association.
What do you mean by the Robinson Crusoe reference?
Thanks! EmIsCurious (talk) 22:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See shoulder angel. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 01:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Yes, I read that page. It discusses the origin of the idea of an advising angel, but not about when / how that might have evolved to the angel/devil pair on either shoulder. It seems like the sort of thing that would have originated with a specific work of literature or art or whatnot. Or at least, in what era (between the origin of advising angels almost 2000 years ago and now) that concept might have entered the popular consciousness. EmIsCurious (talk) 01:14, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

June 25

Taiwan government-in-exile

Has the People's Republic of China ever maintained a government-in-exile for Taiwan Province? All I can find with Google is pages that repeat our article's statement that there currently is no government-in-exile (or pages saying whether the ROC is a government-in-exile), but I can't find anything about past Communist governments-in-exile for the province. Nyttend (talk) 01:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's the Revolutionary Committee of the Chinese Kuomintang (not exactly what you're asking about). AnonMoos (talk) 04:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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