Talk:Barack Obama

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Barack Obama place

Barack Obama is in third place according to this poll [1]

redundant section - see imediately above

O.k., this is the talk page. Let's discuss this paragraph.

"Obama has been heavily criticized for his vote on a series of bills while serving in the Illinois State Senate that sought to protect the infant survivors of botched abortions. In 2001, Sen. Obama voted "present" on bills S.B. 1093, S.B. 1094, and S.B. 1095 even though he has been supportive of abortion in the past. Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no." He also failed to mention how giving medical attention to babies who were already born "overturned" any existing laws."

Pic82101 00:21, 8 April 2007 (EST)

See the section immediately above this one. Tvoz |talk 00:32, 8 April 2007

possible deceptive editing

In archive 8, there is an interesting discussion about Obama's police endorsement. The current language may give the reader the impression that he has police support but the real story is that he possibly is OPPOSED by a majority of police. See the very informative article that's listed as a footnote (reference). If so, the current version (before my edit \) is POV, contrary to wikipedia policy. I hope Obama supporters don't just plain revert it but abide by NPOV.Lawman8 18:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been hashed out, as you know, and the objections that were raised were bogus ones raised by a sockpuppet of a user who is under a community ban - done to disrupt. Nothing has changed since then - this endorsement is ancient history about a long-past election. The wording is being reverted as it was neutral and accurate. If you object, the thing to do is to say so here, especially since you are well aware of the previous discussion, according to the comment you just posted - not to go in and change it to how you want it to be. So, go ahead and make your objection here, but don't start an edit war. And, not for the first time, you don't know who is an Obama supporter and who is not, so don't make assumptions. Tvoz |talk 19:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that the only person would reverts to pro-Obama language is an Obama supporter. However, an Obama supporter is likely to do so. I also see that there was no edit war but rather those favoring POV pro-Obama language kicked out KCtoday. The communist party does that. They send people with NPOV and opposite views to the labor camp. This is not to say that Obama editors here are communist but they MAY behave in the same way. Let's try to find compromise language!Lawman8 17:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

KMCToday was one of a series of ids banned as sockpuppets attempting to evade dereks1x's community ban. It had nothing to do with his views. Tvoz |talk 18:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

::I was reading the content of KMCtoday's comments, not the mechanics of the ban. Some of the comments make sense. Hitler drank water. However, water is not bad just because Hitler drank it.Lawman8 18:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz, you say to discuss things on talk page. Yet, you just revert and don't add talk page comments. I have made yet another attempt for compromise language, not simply reverting. This is discussion, not edit warring. Edit warring is when you just revert.Lawman8 20:30, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

You'll get one response: Go back to archive 8 and re-read the discussion that took place there. Nothing has changed, as I said above. I reinstated the NPOV and accurate wording that we had - I have nothing more to say on the matter at present, unless someone brings up something new, which you have not. Your complaint was bogus then and it is bogus now. And your concept of "compromise" wording, which dereks1x used across several articles, under several names, is also invalid as you're using it here: a compromise requires more than one party's agreement. So what you are doing, as I am quite sure you know, is merely being disruptive. Tvoz |talk 20:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It is only disruptive if one considers that trying to eliminate NPOV is disruptive. Actually, advocating a POV view is disruptive to the whole wikipedia community, not just this article. The behavior of bobblehead is wrong because he says to talk on the talk page yet reverts without doing so or even offering compromise language. Lawman8 21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

User:Lawman8 confirmed as another sockpuppet of banned User: dereks1x, again attempting to evade his ban. I struck out his comments. Tvoz |talk 00:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Obama sr.jpg is a candidate for speedy deletion

Our policy regarding non-free content indicates that on the image description page of non-free content, the source and, if different, the copyright owner must be clearly identified. The copyright owner of the photograph is not identified and, as such, I have tagged the image with {{no copyright holder}}. The image is a candidate for speedy deletion per the fourth criterion.

I would like to suggest that the situation may be resolved amicably by attempting to contact Barack Obama via his campaign manager or Senate secretary. If he is the copyright owner of an image of his father, he may be willing to license a free image of his father under the GFDL, and that option should definitely be first in correspondence with his staff. --Iamunknown 21:21, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

If such a attempt were to be made, I'd suggest that either this image or this image would be stronger candidates for inclusion in the Barack Obama#Early life and career section. However, I would also suggest that none of these images are essential, and this WPCD Selection feature article, which currently contains only free-use images, should aim to stay that way. --HailFire 22:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Though those images were given courtesy of Barack Obama, he may not be the copyright owner. He might know, of course, who is. --Iamunknown 19:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

"Barry" and Basketball

Obama's Basketball Years Should we find a place for this info? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.121.195 (talk) 02:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

I believe this should be included into personal life with the theme "youth" Nuclearj 20:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Middle eastern heritage.

I don't quite understand the 'African-American' thing or hybridised nationality nomenclature very well, but I understand Africa is the content of origin of his fathers side, but there's no mention anywhere in the article of his middle eastern origins? Is this because in the current American socio-political climate there is a dogma around the middle east forming? Or has he personally overlooked this because of such? Jachin 06:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It could also be because he has no Middle Eastern heritage? His biological father was Kenyan (That's in Africa), his biological mother was from Kansas with European ancestry. Hope that answers your question about why there is no mention of Middle Eastern heritage. --Bobblehead 18:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to MySpace site?

I'm not sure if this article needs a link to Barack Obama's MySpace account. It seems legit enough, but I'm just wondering if this is the sort of link that is worthy of inclusion in this article. It just seems a bit to, I dunno, *lowbrow* for this article maybe. Let's talk about this. Thanks, Rahzel 21:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Assuming the MySpace account's now officially "owned" and maintained by the Obama campaign, I see no reason why it wouldn't be notable enough for inclusion. Shem^(talk) 15:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Who said Barack is a Muslim? He isn't, and never has been, so the statement that he is the first Muslim Senator is wrong. He identifies himself as a Christian. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14961215/site/newsweek/

No controversies? Cmon guys!!

Myspace / Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake / Obama says he was unaware of stocks in trust fund

http://www.suntimes.com/news/124171,CST-NWS-obama05.article

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0703080154mar08,0,5354218.story

Barack's disclosure of actions surrounding these events circumvents any foul play. These accusations have been dismissed largely for the most part, they are simply speculation. Media organization have already taken notice of this with strict scrutiny. Nuclearj 20:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Still, shouldnt it be mentioned?? Just coz someone dislosed soemthing doesnt mean it wasnt a controversy?? Peterpressurepeterp

His disclosure effectively ended the controversy. The relevence of this so-called controversy is small compared to that of an ecyclopedia article. It is more suited for a bibliography Michiganw12 02:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Last I checked, biography articles here on Wikipedia are full of this kind of information. If we took statments, like those from Obama, at face value then any information even remotely critical of an individual would never make it in an article here. Hempbilly 16:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It was not only his statements, it was his actions and evidence provided. There is no controversyNuclearj 16:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I still think it should be mentioned, here why don't you read this, than claim Wiki shouldnt be used for this type of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani#Controversies

Some claim that Giuliani knew all along that his first wife Regina Peruggi was his second cousin (Peruggi was the daughter of Giuliani's father's cousin[citation needed]) No citation, no names of who, I mean c'mon peopel this is horrible... --Peterpressure 20:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Are political geeks romance challenged?

Does anyone else see a problem with this sentence?

"Obama met Michelle Robinson in 1988 while employed as a summer associate at Sidley & Austin, the law firm where she also worked.[128]"

Why does the name of the law firm need to be mentioned? People are interested in how the two met, not in the name of the firm. If that is important put in somewhere else. Just my opinion. Thanks. Steve Dufour 02:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is not relevant information to the reader. If the reader wishes to know what law firm they worked at, it may be researched further. Nuclearj 20:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed the wording of this section a little, hoping to make it a little more natural without removing anyone's precious tidbit of information. Steve Dufour 23:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge

Somebody nominated Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. to be merged into this article .The discussion on the merge links here.--Sefringle 04:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Barack Senior deserves an article beacuse he is an immediate family member of a Democratic presidential candidate. As the primarys approach, though, the page will obviously grow if Barack's campaign picks up a decent following.--Pyromancer102 01:24, 3 May (EST)

I dont't hink so. Barack Obama sr. has done no things which would have made him so special that he would deserve an articl. please forgive my bad english, i am native speaker of german --86.103.206.146 09:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said over there, and on the page about his mother, I haven't seen anything on those pages that would demand separate pages - I'm in favor of merge/redirect to here unless and until some new information is revealed making them notable beond their status as his parents. Yes, there may be interest, but at this point I think this article can handle it. Since both are deceased, there won't be new things happening with them in the way that Miz Lillian or Clinton's mother or Rose Kennedy did and no one has demonstrated any independent notability. Tvoz |talk 17:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Merge - Merge away. Aside from producing Barack Obama they are not notable and, as such, their notability is properly noted here in the Barack Obama article. --Bobblehead 17:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems for now that everything mentioned in these articles is already mentioned within this article. If you want to merge them, I suggest nominating them for an Afd.--Sefringle 00:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Obama's myspace

The media is all over this, he had MySpace yank down a fan site with 160,000 friends to have it himself! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.205.32.93 (talk) 13:13, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

I think it could be mentioned. However, it is a little more complex than you say. Steve Dufour 14:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, "more complex" meaning the guy running the unofficial setup locked the campaign out of the MySpace profile and demanded $50,000 to give them access again. Obama's camp then invoked MySpace's policy concerning names of notable public figures, and was given the URL. I came back to Wikipedia after reading about this MySpace controversy, and want to make sure that any inclusion of it in Obama's article is accurate 'bout the situation's context. Shem^(talk) 15:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This is probably more appropriate for the Obama presidential election campaign article than this one, though. --Bobblehead 17:07, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Bobblehead - if appropriate at all. And Shem's concern seems valid - care should be taken in researching what actually happened before posting POV conclusions like "to have it himself" in the article. Tvoz |talk 17:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I saw the story in the newspaper yesterday and again today. One sentence thing really sums it up. "The dispute hightlights a balancing act for the presidential candidates, who are trying to harness the energy and enthusiasm of online activists while trying to maintain some control over the candidates' image" WSJ May 3, 2007 p. A7. The same article said the guy asked for $39,000, not $50,000. Feddhicks 20:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Referred to as "African American" Senator in first paragraph, when not fully African. Barack is of mixed Ancestry

Barack Obama has been cited consistently of having African and European ancestry. I feel that the label "the 5th African American senator" should be replaced with "5th Senator with African American heritage". The term "with" is more accurate than "of" African American heritage. I propose the following revision:

The U.S. Senate Historical Office lists him as only the fifth Senator with African American heritage in U.S. history and the only Senator with African American heritage currently serving in the U.S. Senate. Nuclearj 22:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

But that's not the language the US Senate Historical Office uses. Read the source please. He is identified there as being the 5th African American senator, which is the language we reached consensus on here. Tvoz |talk 22:34, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Although the US historical office refers to him solely as an "African American", it does not make it factually correct. The list was made to compile the few senators of African American heritage and subsequently Barack was included. The statement is inherently incomplete and gives readers a FALSE impression of his heritage. It can easily be corrected by including the term "with" African American heritage. If references are desired, one easily recognizing his mixed heritage may be included. 165.91.99.20 23:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

But he does not have "African American heritage" since he is the first African American in his family. Steve Dufour 23:32, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, agreed/correct Steve, perhaps something along the line of "with African heritage" would be best suited. Nuclearj 23:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

We all have African heritage. :-) Steve Dufour 00:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That comment does not aid to the conversation. The Africa you mention is before the concept of continent was created Michiganw12 02:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that his racial/ethnic description should be factual, rather that a popular catagorization. The lanuage can be made clear and concise to do this, without a description of his family tree. Michiganw12 02:48, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, and he is African American. Tvoz |talk 03:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

*Upon researching he considers himself to be African American and keeping within Wikipedia policy of living biographies and to avoid smear it is deemed adequate to leave it as such. This is my original error creating this discussion, though I am new and am surprised that nobody mentioned this information at the onset of discussion.Nuclearj 03:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Barack O'Bama

I would like to include a comment indicating Obama's Irish heritage (See here. ) and add him to the list of "Irish-American politicians." Any suggestions as to what would be appropriate? Windyjarhead 23:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I support this measure, given that it is completely factual and Obama is listed as an African-American politician despite being only 50% of African heritage. The listing is of equal bearing. Nuclearj 00:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I would not object to him being called an "Irish-American". However he is 100% a "black" American, or "African-American" which is how "black" Americans are normally called in political conversations. (I put the word "black" in quotation marks since no human is literally black in color and the word is used in a special way in the USA, according to which Senator Obama is a perfectly good example of a "black" person.) Steve Dufour 00:32, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That is a character/appearance opinion which varies from person to person. It is not the duty of this article to label a particular character upon an individual. It is up to the reader to make that distinction. Factually, he is half European, half African. Nuclearj 00:38, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Still he is a "black American". Steve Dufour 02:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That kind of slavish devotion to categorization is why racism is so persistent, IMO. There is no REQUIREMENT that an article mention the ethnicity of the subject. Personally I say leave it out or simply note the country of origin of his parents.MikeURL 18:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

i support cross-categorization and multiracial rather than exclusively racial descriptions. the word "black" would be a useless addition. people can draw whatever conclusions they want from his image. i would like to note that it is somewhat disconcerting to :mention his race twice in the opening paragraph though, as it currently is. he's also the first Hawaiian to run for president yeah?75.57.118.193 02:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this additional catagorization. There seems to be no grand argument against it, move to proceed? Michiganw12 02:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I do not agree. We have had this discussion before - look in the archives. The consensus wording, discussed over a period of time by people who were working on the article, should stand.Tvoz |talk 03:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The comment was in reference to the additional catagorization to the list of "irish-american" politicians, not the wording. From your response, you did not mention any objection to the additonal catagorization. Please read throughly. Michiganw12 03:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I read it. He is not an Irish-American politician, whether or not he has an ancestor or two who were Irish. Tvoz |talk 03:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

*Note Barack cites himself as African-American, in accordance with Wikipedia policy of living biographies it is adequate to leave it as such, otherwise it would be subject to smear scrutiny on his behalf. However, his Irish ancestry is becoming evident from that article, and could be included with information about his parents Nuclearj 03:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• • How is he not Irish American, Tvoz? Being an American of Irish descent is enough to qualify for that label. Windyjarhead 04:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Because you are talking about one or two possible distant ancestors. The common understanding of a phrase like "Irish-American" or "Italian-American" would be the son or daughter, or perhaps grandson or granddaughter, of someone born in Ireland or Italy - immigrants to the US. Like John Kennedy and Rudy Giuliani. Not someone's distant ancestors. What point are you trying to make anyway by including this? The heading you gave the section would suggest that you have something in mind. Why don't you spell it out? Tvoz |talk 04:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Tvoz, you are destroying you argument by saying that his ancestors are distant. His mother very well may qualify as an Irish-american. The point is that he has referred to himself as an African-American and attends a largely African-American religious congregation and never has otherwised labeled himself. His irish ancestry shoudl be included, but not as a label.Nuclearj 05:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There is more than one point. As far as I can see from the source provided, his mother wouldn't be called Irish-American either. Maybe someone wants to write an article on the genealogy of Barack Obama and other Presidential candidates - geneaology can be interesting. But this article doesn't need a detailed analysis of possible ancestors - I agree, he's African American. That's where the conversation began.Tvoz |talk 05:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I never said detailed, it can be simply stated in 5 words or less. Mother of traceable Irish-American heritage, etc. If the reader wants further information, he/she could research further that is what the goal of the article should be. Apparently this is just being discovered, so more information should become available as time goes one. I don't understand what the fear is about inserting a small tidbit about his mother. Nuclearj 06:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no agenda here, I don't dispute his "African-ness" or "black-ness." I simply assert his "Irish-ness." Most Americans I know are of multiple ethnicities/heritages. And for the record, it was JFK's great-grandfather that was from Ireland. Windyjarhead 07:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Windyjarhead, then what exactly do you propose? Adding a label to his ethnicity? Let's get the facts straight, he is labeled African-American, because that is the label he recognizes and chooses to associate with. His mother's Irish heritage is only applicable regarding herself. Nuclearj 14:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, I really didn't think this would be such a hot issue. Here's a straightforward fact: Barack Obama's great great great grandfather came from Ireland. It has been reported by RTÉ, BBC, MSNBC, Reuters, The Telegraph, The Guardian and The Mirror, and that's just from a 2 minute Google search.

Yes, of course he's an African American, his father came from Kenya. But that does not change the fact that he is also an Irish American (being a descendent of Irishmen) and a politician (being an elected United States Senator and candidate for the Presidency of the United States.)

Therefore he is an "Irish American Politician." Simple as that, with no implications or hidden agenda. (See WP:AGF) Windyjarhead 16:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It is such a hot issue because there are individuals that base their entire characterization of a person upon a race or ethnic label. Barack cites himself as an American-American, I think we owe him the dignity to label him as he wishes and it is consistent with Wikipedia's policy on living biographies. We can mention his mother's heritage of Irish ancestry, I don't see any problem with that. If anyone disagrees with labeling his mother with Irish ancestry would they please state a reason other than the number of generations she is removed of Ireland? That is not a concrete point, JFK was considered Irish-American and was several generations removed from Ireland. I consider myself as well to a point, and I'm 8 generations removed. Keep in mind this is about his mother and not directly about BarackNuclearj 17:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, I don't follow the logic, how is this "about his mother and not directly about Barack"? We're talking about direct, linear, biological descent, which, while through his mother, is very much directly about Barack. It's his ancestry. Windyjarhead 01:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

We would need further info on Obama's mother's ethnicity. Obama's Irish ancestor could very well have married someone of Scottish descent and their child married someone of French descent and their child married someone of German descent, etc. to the point where Obama's mother would be considered someone of mixed European ancestry and her Irish heritage is very distant. There might even be a Native American in there for all we know. But maybe there could at least be a mention of it somewhere in the article simply because it was a fairly big new story at the time. MrBlondNYC 06:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The category should be put on the article. I don't see why there's any argument on this.--Gloriamarie 06:18, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has spoken

After reviewing the ongoing discussion regarding Senator Barack Obama's categorization as an "Irish American Politician," I have found that eight registered Wikipedians and one unregistered IP contributor have offered opinions. Of those, five have expressed support for the categorization, two have expressed opposition and one was unsure. This discussion has been open for a period of seven days.

Support	Oppose	Unsure
Windyjarhead	MikeURL	MrBlondNYC
Nuclearj	Tvoz
Steve Dufour	Italiavivi
Michiganw12
Gloriamarie

I therefore conclude that the Wikipedia community consents to Obama's categorization as an Irish American Politician, albeit with some hesitation. I will add the category to the article, and I ask that no user remove it without the courtesy of reading and contributing to this discussion. Windyjarhead 16:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to go on record saying that I oppose the category "Irish-American" being applied to Barack Obama until further info about his mother's heritage is provided. Furthermore, the discovery of his Irish ancestor isn't even mentioned in the article. If this ruling is valid, some proof of why the category applies should be in the article. MrBlondNYC 02:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Except that you neglected to mention to anyone that you were planning to close discussion at a given time, or that this was some kind of poll, and it's quite a stretch to say that the Wikipedia community thinks any such thing based on comments from a few editors. But in the interests of moving this along, here's an idea: I personally have no problem with an indication of anyone's ancestry, if it is confirmed, so I have no problem in theory with saying that such and such an ancestor on his mother's side was from Ireland. But I think calling him an Irish-American politician is misleading and kind of silly, at best, assuming good faith. So maybe you can look through available categories and see if there are any more specifically for ancestry. I maintain that the concept of "Irish-American" implies a larger part of a person;s ancestry, and implies a self-identification as such or an identification by reliable sources as such. I expect that you won't find sources that refer to Obama as an Irish -American politician, and therefore I think putting him in that category is inappropriate. Tvoz |talk 05:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:People of Irish descent - let's try that. Tvoz |talk 05:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Except even then it's a stretch to refer to Barack Obama as being of "Irish descent". Ethnicity is generally defined by the largest components of your ancestry and is more often then not identified by the group that you most associate with. As an example, my father's side of the family had the unfortunate distinction of being Protestants in Catholic France. During the Inquisition era they fled to Holland and remained there for a couple of generations, popped over to Scotland and Ireland for a couple more generations, and then off to the US. So even though I have a few Dutch, Scottish, and Irish ancestors in my family tree doesn't mean I'm of those descents. My father's side of the family is still considered solely of French descent because that is the majority of their descent and the group they most associate with. As MrBlondNYC says, we just don't know enough about Obama's mother ancestry to know if her families connection to Ireland is more in passing or if there is a stronger connection. Heck, even the source used to claim his heritage says that the connection has possibly been traced. It would probably be good to include Obama's ancestry via his mother's side of the family, but at this point all that is known is that some unknown percentage of that ancestry may have been from Ireland. Although, I can tell you that the Dunham name is possibly of English descent and there was a John Dunham that appeared in the US shortly after the Mayflower... Of course, no idea if Obama's mom was at all related to that Dunham, so saying Obama is an English American is just as sketchy.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would agree with that. I was trying to find a category that I could live with, if indeed there was consensus that one was needed, as I can't live with Irish-American politicians, but the fact is I am not comfortable with this one either and I don't see any consensus for including it. Tvoz |talk 00:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Rezko

Putting aside the question of whether Rezko should be discussed in this article, certainly this addition violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight. · jersyko talk 16:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What does and does not violate WP:NPOV#Undue weight is certainly a matter of opinion, but we can certainly discuss it. Google news currently has 135 hits for this link, and Google has 71,900. What significance this has is also open to debate, but this a major issue. Hempbilly 16:36, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The significance of the Rezko scandal generally is distinct from the relevance of Rezko to Obama. A several paragraph subsection in this article is far too much, especially given that it appears for now that Obama was hardly in the wrong. · jersyko talk 16:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

See archives for earlier discussions of this matter (summarized in archive 8) - consensus was that it was not notable enough for inclusion here.Tvoz |talk 16:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The section may be condensed, but not shit canned. To remove the material in its entirety is grossly POV. Obama’s relationship with Rezko (land deal, campaign contributions, and what not) are a matter of fact, as for Obama “hardly in the wrong” that is a matter of opinion. consensus does not dictate policy and is subject to change. Hempbilly 16:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course consensus is subject to change, which is why I said in edit summary that we can certainly discuss. But should do that before reinstating the large section you had added.Tvoz |talk 16:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe I have justified it. Articles from several mainstream publications have commented on it and are continuing to comment on it, and Obama’s own campaign felt it notable enough to address it. It appears to be an active topic in Google and Google news. If I understand stand correctly article ownership and gate keeping is strongly discouraged here. Hempbilly 17:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It would also appear that the consensus reached was on the land deals, not the campaign contributions, which if memory serves, is one of the driving factors in the inclusion of Jack Abramof in many articles. As one who grew up in a family tied to the political machine in Chicago, no one associated with that comes out without skeletons in their closet. Hempbilly 17:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no article ownership or gate keeping going on here, please don't accuse Tvoz of any wrong doing. I'd have to agree in part with Hempbilly that this should be mentioned in the article, however its current form is far too long. May I suggest:

Obama’s 17 year friendship and business dealings with Tony Rezko, an Illinois restaurant and real estate developer came under scrutiny after Rezko's indictment on charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud. This scrutiny has centered on two real estate deals involving Obama's South Side home and campaign contributions made to Obama’s state senate campaign and US senate campaign. Obama responded to the scrutiny by saying, “I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards. During the 10 years I have been in public office, I believe I have met those standards and I know that is what people expect of me. I have also understood the importance of appearances. With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and aboveboard”

--Mbc³⁶² 18:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Hempbilly, much of your inclusion is pure speculation. Your personal experience in chicaga political affairs hold no bearings in this discussion. As previously mentioned by another user the significance of the Rezko scandal generally is distinct from the relevance of Rezko to Obama. I do not dis-persuade you from adding a small insert within a section about Obama's relationship with Rezko, because it is factually correct. It is hardly unworthy of entire dedicated section. 165.91.99.20 18:27, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Good work, Mbc362. Clear and concise. I will support this inclusion in Cultural and political image section. Nuclearj 18:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I would also agree that this is better than completely disregarding the material in its entirety. I guarantee this will become an issue in the primary. Hempbilly 18:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I reckon you'd do better not offering your guarantees of what'll be an issue, 'cause Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball, Billy. Shem^(talk) 18:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And I'd recon you'd do better keeping on subject. Ignoring this material does not make it any less relevant to the article. Hempbilly 19:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you're the one who started playing fortune-teller ("I guarantee this will become an issue") with what'll become an issue in the primaries. Far's "on subject" goes, you need to read WP:NOT, that's all I'm saying. Shem^(talk) 20:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot... where, exactly did I try and interject this belief into the article? Oh, thats right no where. Hempbilly 20:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Things always change with time. I remind you that even though you have edited the article, several individuals monitoring the article have yet to provide their input.Nuclearj 18:49, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I like this Obama quote: "One of the perils of public life is that you end up being responsible for, or you're held responsible for, associations that you didn't necessarily know were a problem". [2] johnpseudo 19:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, since they're both participating in this discussion, I want to note that I strongly suspect that Nuclearj and Hempbilly are sockpuppets of a banned user. If that is the case, if confirmed, I will remove all of their comments from this discussion per WP:BAN. Thanks. · jersyko talk 19:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I have no affiliation with with Hempbilly, banned user, etc. I am located in an apartment complex and university with a shared IP, look at my most recently created article. I am not a gimmick. Nuclearj 21:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And just to tie a little bow on Jersyko's comment above, the result of the RFCU was inconclusive. --Bobblehead 17:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts on Rezko

Since this whole Rezko section is rather convoluted in the various ongoing discussions, many of which are unrelated to the content and I'm trying to avoid the appearance of replying to an unrelated comment by making a new subsection. Anyways, Mdc362's proposal is a definite improvement over the excessively long addition by Hempbilly, but still seems a bit too detailed for what (so far) is just a poor choice in friends. At this point there hasn't been any evidence of Obama exchanging political favors for Rezko's campaign contributions (which is a key point in the Abramoff scandal) or receiving any special treatment in the real estate deals (unlike Duke Cunningham). I don't have time for further thoughts right now, just wanted to at least do a partial reply to the content now that the RFCU is completed. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems (at least to me) that this topic has been mentioned in the press enough to warrant inclusion in this article. When I compare it to material in other politician's articles, it seems of equal noteworthiness (ex. these controversies, specifically the one about AIDS, on Bill Frist). I don't see how devoting a few sentences to it under "Personal life" would violate WP:NPOV.--Mbc³⁶² 01:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I've never been comfortable comparing one article to another. The editors on Bill Frist's article should definitely take a look at his article and remove some of the content in the "controversies" section (which I don't believe should exist at all). That being said, I'm also not of the opinion that Rezko can not being mentioned in this article. Just that if it is included, it should be limited to at most two sentences and make very clear that Rezko's charges have nothing to do with Obama. As far as I've seen so far in the press coverage, it's a guilt by association situation, perhaps made worse by the Abramoff situation. All in all, it's still nothing more than Obama made a poor choice in friends 17 years ago. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 06:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Bobblehead. The editors at Bill Frist's article should tighten their standards for "controversy" inclusion, rather than pass those standards here to Obama's article. Italiavivi 20:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Bobblehead, but think the Rezko relationship is noteworthy enough (e.g., signficant amount of local press coverage here in Chicago) to add to the article. That said, no more is needed than a description of the relationship which clearly indicates that Obama has nothing to do with Rezko's charges. Jogurney 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Man I've been saying to include the Rezco deal for months. Finally some of you are coming around Manic Hispanic 06:16, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

professor

this blog post states that after being a lecturer at the university of chicago, he became a full professor (i don't know for how long) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnjosephbachir (talk • contribs) 16:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

Not according to his posted Univ of Chicago curriculum vitae, which would be more reliable than a blogpost. Tvoz |talk 16:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:Ex-atheists/agnostics

Is it appropriate to list him in this category if he has not explicitly stated having been an atheist/agnostic in his earlier years? Doubting God or questioning God doesn't automatically make one an atheist. Italiavivi 20:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree - I removed it earlier because the article does not specifically support the contention, despite what edit summaries say. There is an implication in one of the quotes, but I'd say if being agnostic or atheist was an important identification for him in his younger days that should be expressed, and then the cat makes sense. Otherwise, I think it should be out. Tvoz |talk 21:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's also keep in mind that being agnostic oftentimes goes in conjunction with being an atheist or a theist (i.e. there are agnostic Christians, Jews, etc). --Ubiq 00:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Infobox Uniformity

Please leave Obama's infobox as is. They current method is the unform method used on other senator's aticles. The infoboxes allow for uniform representation of information of similar items. Obama is no different from any other senator and as such his aricle should be treated the same. Rougher07 22:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Identifying Muslims

69.149.249.41 and I seem to disagree about whether or not people in Obama's life should be identified as Muslims. I think this is unnecessary (it's not common practice to tag every name in an article with that person's religious description). I'm not so dedicated to this that I'm going to keep pushing it from my angle, but does anyone else have opinions on this? CSWarren 22:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Indonesians are predominately Muslim, coastal Kenyans are predominately Muslims. If people need to have this shoved down their throats then its truly sad how little we know of the world. Anyway, this is not common practice on other articles and the user is trolling. DNFTT Gdo01 22:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, identifying people as Muslims is not common practice, and shouldn't be used here. Bjewiki 23:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection?

Hmm.. In the last 2 days, there have been 50 edits. 2 of them have been productive, 1 by Windyjarhead[3] and one by OrphanBot[4]. Thoughts on semi-protecting this article again? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 23:11, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

It definitely seems to be attracting a lot of hostile attention. I think semi-protection would be a good thing. CSWarren 23:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it seems prudent. Tvoz |talk 05:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Obama is Christian, not Muslim

See http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp, among many others. The article currently states in the opening paragraph that he is Muslim. This is incorrect. This has also been mentioned once already on this page, and has been ignored. 208.120.16.139 05:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You are correct - it was vandalism. Tvoz |talk 05:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

The INFAMOUS Rezko land deal

ABC news said the Rezko deal is INFAMOUS: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/05/obama_looks_to_.html Time to put it in the article!