Talk:Mercedes-Benz

history revision on 5.25.2006

Found the revision of the history section lacking in clarity and not presenting the best organization of facts -- so I returned the former version to the article.

Taking an engine and placing it onto a stagecoach one has purchased (and therefore, which is the invention of another person) can not qualify as inventing an automobile that can be patented. The number of wheels in the Benz automobile has never been considered an impediment to the recognition that he invented the first automobile that was put into production. (There are automobiles which were built in the mid-twentieth century with three wheels.) Benz was granted a patent for the invention. Benz went into production in 1886. Daimler and Maybach did not build an automobile from scratch until 1889. There was no patent issued to Daimler for an engine put onto a stagecoach! There was no production of automobiles by Daimler and Maybach until 1989. In no way do I intend to diminish their inventions, however.

Perhaps, if the article is restored as it was before the changes, some consensus about any changes may be reached.

As I see it—later in the article—there is further discussion that explores the fine points that concern the editor who made the sweeping changes and that and other discussion clarifies the differences in the development paths of Benz and DMG. More importantly, other articles on the inventors and such, are more appropriate as the place in which to go into much more detail.

After all, this is an article about Mercedes-Benz a brand that was designated for automobiles built 26 years after the death of Daimler and 15 years after Maybach left DMG. Of the three inventors, only Karl Benz had any involvement with the company, Daimler-Benz, which was the manufacturer of the brand that began in 1926. - kb 2.25.2006

Criticism and controversy?

Is there any criticisms or controversy, which would be relevant to Mercedes Benz, which could be included within this wiki? Electric Avenue 19:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

No way, Mercedes PWNZ!!

There could be an article on build quality. As is well known, pre-93 cars are built to an incredibly high standard but then some director guy came in and decided to start cutting corners to improve profits and it's done a huge amount of damage to Benz's reputation. The build quality hasn't been the same since either (look at the M-Class), even with the huge efforts that are being made lately they're struggling.--Santahul 03:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Images

I believe the Picture of the interior of the Mayback is from the Coupe concept, and not the production car. The production car isn't nearly as sleek or aerodynamic looking.

The picture of "600 SEC" is showing CL coupe, I believe.

Stuttgart district

PFG: Cannstatt (or Bad Cannstatt as it#s called (from 1933) today) is (since 1905) a city district of Stuttgart and not an independent city near Stuttgart, therefore I corrected this passage. Please compare to the page "Stuttgart". Also Untertürkheim (since 1905) and Zuffenhausen (since 1931) are "only" city districts of Stuttgart and not independent towns. These facts are often published false (even in books).

News section

ee think this page should be used like a news service ro reference to all current models and happenings. (e.g the snippet on the Vision CLS availability to the U.S). This is an Encyclopedia and there are many Mercedes-Benz sites that will cater for American Enthusiasts.

I am removing the said section, if anybody has a big problem with this let's discuss it and find a solution. But some of the content on this page is definately "news" instead of "encyclopedia".

Dawidl 07:00, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Factoids

Nice job on reworking the "Mercedes"-daughter factoid into the improved article. --Ed Poor

Not sure what factoid is being discussed here. As it stands now, this article is a farce! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.134.94.21 (talk) 14:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Here's another small factoid: while a Mercedes-Benz car is often, or even usually, referred to popularly as a 'Mercedes', in some countries the name is abbreviated to 'Benz'. (For a chap like me, of course, who likes to travel with his head out the window, either will do.) -- TheToxicAvenger 22:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Image caption

The caption of the S-Class picture said the car was a 1998. That's impossible: that generation debuted in 2000. (The error is now corrected.)
—Vespristiano 03:53, 2003 Dec 21 (UTC)

Noteable models

I don't think I saw the W126 Class of Mercedes (the S-Class from 1979-1991) mentioned as a notable model. It is perhaps one of the most influential cars in modern automotive industry, pioneering many things. Even the new Lexus LS series is still based on it. Needless to say, a true classic, and the last of the top quality mercedes. It had engines ranging from the 6-Cyl 2.8 L up to the 8 Cyl 5.5 L (560 SEL) and includes a few diesel models in between (5 Cyl 3 L , and 6 Cyl 3.5 L).

i think the 190E 16 vlave is a noteable model that should be in here

Model naming convention

I had changed the S-Class page to read S600 instead of S 600 (for example), because I found that the US MB page had it noted as such. Looking at the .de site, I notice the first original convention is correct.

It's probably worthwhile to maintain the primary model name on each page, and mention any different names immediately thereafter. I'm going to fix the S-Class right now—it's probably not a bad idea to use the introduction as an example. --Milkmandan 05:14, 2005 Feb 25 (UTC)

"Hitler's Mercedes"

On my book on the topic, it claimed that Hitler and other Nazi officials all used Mercedes limousines from a motor pool, rather than having a personal vehicle. --Robert Merkel 10:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing interesting. Hitler was defending German superiority so it is very normal to hear that he and his government all used %100 German made cars. Also, maybe Führer wanted to use different cars. Deliogul 14:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Improvement Drive

The article Hummer H2 is currently nominated to be improved on WP:IDRIVE. You can vote for this article there if you are interested in contributing.--Fenice 12:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Logo

I have replaced the logo with a photo of the car's symbol. The previous image is: Image:Mercedes-Benz.png --Black Squirrel 21:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

A caption?

There is no need for a caption stating that the image of the logo is a logo. This is according to the WIKI caption policy. Showing the logo of the brand or the company is not an attempt at advertising. The notion of putting a caption stating that the logo is a logo will somehow reduce the effect of "advertising" is false. Showing the logo as part of a Wikipedia article is not advertising according to the definition of advertising --

"Advertising is paid and/or sometimes free communication through a medium in which the sponsor is identified and the message is controlled. ..."

Therefore, including a “fair use” image of the logo within a Wikipedia article about the item or organization identified with that particular logo does NOT make it advertising. Wikipedia guidelines clearly state that no caption needed for company or product logos, where the logo is current, and the article is about the company or product. -- Thank you CZmarlin 07:25, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

WW2

The article currently states:"During the Second World War, Mercedes-Benz is known to have exploited more than 30 000 forced workers and prisoners of war, some of whom would eventually strike and be sent to concentration camps. This working force soon became essential to the production capacity of the company since 1941, and was a key to the construction of the Nazi Germany's Luftwaffe and war machine." I think a sources should be cited in line with Wikipedia policy to ensure credibility.--A Y Arktos 23:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This was a government policy. Companies can't be accused because of it. Maybe we must change our one-sided view about the events of WW2. Winners of the war hided manythings but they also blamed Axis Powers for all the damage that was given to the world. Deliogul 15:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

RE:WW2

I find AYArktos' comment to be extraordinarily offensive. It is a widely known fact that Mercedes Benz and innumerable other German companies exploited workers (especially Jews and other minorities target by the Nazis). For example: "Krupp doesn't make consumer products but other former slave employers do. Daimler-Benz, for example. The firm avidly supported Nazism and in return received arms contracts and tax breaks that enabled it to become one of the world's leading industrial concerns. (Between 1932 and 1940 production grew by 830 percent.) During the war the company used thousands of slaves and forced laborers including Jews, foreigners, and POWs. According to historian Bernard Bellon (Mercedes in Peace and War, 1990), at least eight Jews were murdered by DB managers or SS men at a plant in occupied Poland. There was a report that Daimler-Benz built mobile poison gas vans, but this has never been corroborated and is doubtful." - straightdope.com

Bling bling

Weren't stars stolen from Mercedes one of the bling bling items associated to hip hop fashion? --Error 02:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

G-Wagen

Does anyone else think the MB G-Wagen should be added to the 'Significant models produced' section, after all its still in production, after what must be over 25 years since it first became a civilian 4x4 (probably longer if you include military use).

Also the '280' in this section is a bit ambiguous but I assume the W116 S-Class was the model in question. -JCW - 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes it should. Its certainly an iconic model.213.243.180.4 13:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong

E320 CDI is not a V6 3.0 litre diesel. In the American market where it was tested, it is a 3.2 litre DOHC inline six.

Sure about that?

The Mercedes-Benz USA web site does say that "3,222-cc DOHC 24-valve inline-6." is the engine on sale in USA for E320; but that is not the engine used in the FIA approved endurance test, a V6 is used. Here are links supporting the use of a V6 in the test, including the official Mercedes-Benz website page. can't find any credible source that say an inline-6 is used!

www.mercedes-benz.com

www.carpages.co.uk

www.edmunds.com

www.motoring.co.za

Also the only V6 currently used in any E-class is a 2987cc (3.0L for all intents and purposes) so will revert back to previous edit unless better information shown. Thanks. --JCW 10:03, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Quality issues

Towards the end of the article the author seems to get a bit excited about modern build quality, somewhat giving the impression that things will now be fine and dandy, when it actual fact Mercedes have a long way to go yet.

Don't worry. Once I had a 1989 200 E and it was the best thing I've ever used. Now, I have a faster and a newer car but it is not the same. Mercedes is one of the best manufacturers in the world. Deliogul 15:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry mate, Mercedes WERE one of the best manufacturers in the world, ever since the merger with Chrysler, quality of their cars have gone south. For example, the electrics on many of their new cars (espciallt the C-Class) are terrible and I've seen a few with severe rust that are only less than 10 years old. Mercedes now are nothing of old, and they are slowly going down the same road Rover did 25 years ago.

I am the author in question...

Actually at the end of the article I said: "Many now hope that the rest of the Mercedes-Benz range will inherit this fastidious attention to detail and rock solid reliability—that gave Mercedes-Benz its prestigious name in the first place." implying that most of the rest of the MB range still need improving in the build quality department.

However the W221 S-Class has been widely heralded as a magnificent car by its reviewers, with quality 'back on form' (i.e. as it was in the pre-Chrysler (pre late 1990's)days) being a common comment by independant reviewers. And the citations are examples, although most reviews are on paper (can't find on net to link) in magazines such as ‘CAR’, ‘Top Gear’, ‘What Car’, and ‘Mercedes Enthusiast’. I think this is a fair and comprehensive paragraph, with more citations in it than the rest of the article combined. Not merely an off the cuff comment on ‘modern build quality’ of Mercedes Benz cars, as you implied. -JCW 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't find that bit in the article, has it been removed? It's worth mentioning if sources can be provided, although I think it's also worth mentioning that only time can tell for sure how good the build quality really is.--Santahul 03:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

addressing KB's points on history

Quote: "In no way do I intend to diminish their inventions, however."

Well you have, you see in 1886 Gottlieb Daimler built (or designed) the worlds first four-wheeled motor vehicle when he took the stagecoach (made by Wilhelm Wimpff & Sohn) and adapted it to hold his engine. This is a widely accepted and recognised fact, just because there is no patent for it does not mean the accolade is unmentionable. below are links to automobile history all show the 1886 Gottlieb Daimler invention. I just can’t see how you can conceivably think that the worlds first four wheeled gas engine automobile is not worth even mentioning! It is without question a landmark event/product in Mercedes history, regardless of whether it was built from the ground up by Daimler or not. Countless car manufactures today use chasses and engines from rival/other companies, this does not suddenly mean they are not automobiles worthy of mention.

I never said that because the Benz vehicle had only three wheels that it fails to be an automobile in my edit I clearly state that: "Benz, who had his shop in Mannheim invented the worlds first true automobile " the fact that it is three wheeled is even in brackets.

These essential details are not addressed later in the article. You said that you found the revision in history: "lacking in clarity and not presenting the best organization of facts" will I don't see the problem, everything is chronologically ordered in an understandable fashion. It is the current edit that is "lacking in clarity and not presenting the best organization of facts" and, is inconsice and incomplete and but if you still don't like it the clean it up don’t just revert to a previous edit.

History of cars Who invented the automobile? Automobile History, List of Events

Thanks for your comments, but im reverting to my edit. --JCW 09:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I will work on it over the weekend—to see whether we can reach some agreement about that section. There are many previous examples of carts, boats, or stagecoaches being adapted to carry an engine—these are not patentable inventions built as a concept. If you feel they are, then, in order to make the history correct, you also should mention all of them in the history section for the Mercedes-Benz—because they were the first converted contraptions with four wheels. I would not—and will continue to debate whether the number of wheels is a justification for asserting that the primitive converted stagecoach of Maybach and Daimler should be considered a first in the general history of the Mercedes-Benz. It simply was not the first stagecoach or horse wagon with four wheels that had an engine put onto it to make it move, as you assert. In 1885 Maybach and Daimler purposely built a patentable motorcycle and in 1889 they purposely built a true automobile that could carry passengers as well as the driver, both deserve recognition. I will look at the sites you advise before returning to the edit. Thanks. - kb 2.26.2006

G55

What about the Mercedes Benz G55, the first and only Mercedes utility SUV? 67.188.172.165 00:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Airbags

The article says the first airbags were offered in North America in 1986. This may have been on Mercedes-Benz cars..but the 1974 Buick Electra 225 came with optional driver and passenger side airbags. Someone should fix this.

M-B and the Nazis

"Mercedez-Benz automobiles were driven by Adolf Hitler's secret police."

So what? I'm sure they were also driven by lots of other people who were not police, and by police (secret or otherwise) other than the Nazis'. And which "secret police" does the author mean? the Gestapo? the Sipos?

"The mercedes badge/logo is actually derived from the Nazi emblem."

This does not seem to be supported by the previous information about the Mercedes-Benz logo; could the author cite some evidence to substaniate this? If not, let's remove it.

Layout of the images

I thinked a layout of the images of this article was very ugly [1]. Therefore, I mended it [2]. But it has been reverted [3] somehow. Are you, editors, satisfied with a present layout...?--Morio 15:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Anti Lock Brakes

The article states that "Anti-lock brakes (ABS) were used first in Mercedes-Benz cars in 1978. They have been standard equipment on all Mercedes-Benz cars since model year 1989." At least the second part is not true, for I used to drive a 1990 190e which did not have ABS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.178.24.230 (talk) 13:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

I don’t wish to sound condescending but your car was probably produced just before the ABS 1989 standard was implemented, and then registered and/or sold in 1990 hence leading to the confusion. Note, It is a recognised fact that MB cars produced (produced being the important word) post 1989 had ABS fitted as standard. Thanks. --JCW 13:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Blogs, forums and other links

People keep adding links to Mercedes clubs, forums, blogs etc. While these may be interesting in their own right, I don't think they belong in an encyclopaedia. Paul Fisher 11:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a comment into the wikitext at the end of the External Links section asking editors to discuss any new external links before adding them. It's proven fairly successful on other articles. -- DH85868993 11:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Paul Fisher 11:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The Truth of Mercedes Benz

The truth of Mercedes Benz is that it is sensitive and takes up alot of gas. they are also very expensive to fix and to pay for all of its expenses. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.129.105.106 (talk) 20:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC).

yeah sure buddy... let be guess; a bad experience with a car produced between 1998 and 2004, fair enough. takes up a lot a gas u say, well u are probably an american then (coz u said gas) and since u lot have a problem with diesels you’ve only got yourself to blame, your only now starting to introduce low sulphur diesels ofer there haha, but the petrol’s are not exactly thirsty, in fact the are amongst the most economical in their respective classes. And If your talking about an AMG, or a large V8 model, then what did u expect?... 50mpg combined?? lol. --JCW 23:56, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Do we really need so much detail for every model?

I acknowledge that Wjs13 has done an enormous amount of work on this section - but has he gone too far? Do we really need a dissection of every individual model range, when they all have their own sections in Wikipedia? I feel this is all superfluous, adding bulk but little value. If we are to retain all this work, perhaps some native English speakers could undertake to polish up the grammar? And delete all the competing BMW references? Paul Fisher 10:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah it does seem a bit silly, and some sections have just one line about them... very informative... just seems a bit pointless really, I have added some info to a couple of the models in that area, just to give it some purpose, but I too am unsure of its relevance and necessity/ look at the E-Class bit... lol cumon!. --JCW 23:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Too many pictures

I counted 32 images, including front, side, rear and quarter shots of the new C-Class. This is far too many and makes downloading the page far too slow. The majority o these should be in the various model pages. I intend to delete a large number. Paul Fisher 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)