Talk:Waterboarding

See also: Talk:Waterboarding/Definition

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RfC: Is waterboarding a form of torture, based on sources?

See Talk:Waterboarding/Definition for the discussion and place your comments there.

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Is/isn't torture -- list all sources here

No one seems to dispute at all that waterboarding is considered torture, so far, based on the mini-rfc above. Let's get a collection here of all sources that assert waterboarding is torture, just a collection of links and sources. This is the -the- main bone of contention basically. At the same time, lets also do the same thing with sources that say it isn't torture/isn't considered torture, in the interests of NPOV, and to see what turns up. Anyone who considers it not torture, this is your time to demonstrate that with evidence. • Lawrence Cohen 16:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC) Updating to ensure this is not archived yet. Lawrence Cohen 17:23, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"No one seems to dispute at all that waterboarding is considered torture". Except for the government of the United States. Although this article attempts to be diverse and multi-cultural, no attempt is made to distinguish Cambodian waterboarding from any other type. What about dunking a common form of torture used in Europe? Is that waterboarding? if not than how do you justify the inclusion of the Spanish Inquisition rack? This articles is taking sides in a controversial issue while simplifying the nuances of that issue.

As for a "human rights group" Who the hell elected them and what jurisdiction do they have??Matt Sanchez (talk) 09:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You appear to believe that the references here to the Spanish Inquisition are referring to their use of the rack, however, this belief is mistaken - the references here are to the Tormento di Toca, a form of waterboarding. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 15:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is torture

From Innertia Tensor

• 100 U.S. law professors. In April 2006, in a letter to Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez., more than 100 U.S. law professors stated unequivocally that waterboarding is torture, and is a criminal felony punishable under the U.S. federal criminal code.

What do law professors know about waterboarding? And how are these "100 law professors" more valid than the 1000s who did NOT sign this statement? Did JAG officers sign it? Matt Sanchez (talk) 11:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care about sources that do not exist, is why they are more important as sources than people who did not sign this statement. Lawrence Cohen 14:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The defininition of torture is largely a legal one, on both the domestic and international levels. Therefore, I believe law professors' views are relevant. -Lciaccio (talk) 19:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

False and somewhat naive. The definition of torture is political. If the American government has not defined waterboarding as torture, what right does Wikipedia have to take that step?Matt Sanchez (talk) 08:55, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Completely wrong. Firstly, torture is defined by a physical process. Politicians try to hide the truth of torture for political reasons. Secondly, Wikipedia is not an organ of the US government. Thirdly, waterboarding has been defined as torture by medical practitoners, torturers, victims, law enforcement officers, and - yes - politicians including those of the US government and even - gasp - in a moment of enlightenment, the US government itself. docboat (talk) 09:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
• Well, the definition of torture we are concerned with is a linguistic issue. Legal definitions often try to clearly delineate semantic categories for purposes of clarity and consistency. Politics has nothing to do with the definition per se, although some people bend over backwards to avoid calling something by unpleasant terms. And it may be surprising to "NG", but the US government does not yet have the exclusive right to determine reality. I don't think they have an official position on gravity, and yet I dare to stay on Earth. And even if they ever claim it has been abolished, I will continue to attract other masses. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
• Please stay focussed. There is a legal definition of torture as applied under US and International law. Establishing whether waterboarding meets the legal requirements to fall under that definition evidently is a legal matter and not a political one. Of course, politics are relevant to why a straight forward determination is impossible without a very small group of individuals attempting to create a dispute. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 10:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• John McCain. According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "torture, no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank" and can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal." - Torture's Terrible Toll, Newsweek, November 21, 2005. [1]

reiterated stance in youtube debate on November 28 - stating "I am astonished that you would think such a – such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture. It's in violation of the Geneva Convention." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Remember (talk • contribs) 14:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Lindsey Graham. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a member of the Judiciary Committee and a Colonel in the US Air Force Reserves, said "I am convinced as an individual senator, as a military lawyer for 25 years, that waterboarding ... does violate the Geneva Convention, does violate our war crimes statute, and is clearly illegal."

Comment: Graham did not say it was torture but rather "illegal"--Blue Tie (talk) 03:43, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• U.S. Department of State. In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognizes "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record, U.S. Department of State (2005). "Tunisia". Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |month= (help). (ED: There's more to waterboarding than that (dunking) - but it does also involve a form of submersion. Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC))

Comment: The US State Department was not talking about Waterboarding but submersion -- which is different.--Blue Tie (talk) 03:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• U.S. Law 18/2340. Chapter 18 United States Code, section 2340

On two counts in plain English.

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control Inertia Tensor 09:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— (C) the threat of imminent death Inertia Tensor 09:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: This law does not mention waterboarding and it is disputed that waterboarding must produce those effects. Furthermore it permits some acts suffered incidental to lawful sanctions.

• UN Convention. UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984 Signatories 74, Parties 136, As of 23 April 2004

• For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

• Benjamin Davis. Benjamin Davis, a professor at the University of Toledo College of Law writes "Waterboarding has been torture for at least 500 years. All of us know that torture is going on." in an OpEd in Jurist, Endgame on Torture: Time to Call the Bluff
• Jimmy Carter. Former US President Jimmy Carter stated "The United States tortures prisoners in violation of international law" and continued "I don't think it.... I know it" in a CNN interview on October the 10th 2007

Comment: Jimmy Carter did not say that waterboarding was torture. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:48, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

• Mississippi Supreme Court. [2]In the case of Fisher v. State, the Mississippi Supreme Court reversed the murder conviction of an African-American because of the use of waterboarding. "The state offered . . . testimony of confessions made by the appellant, Fisher. . . [who], after the state had rested, introduced the sheriff, who testified that, he was sent for one night to come and receive a confession of the appellant in the jail; that he went there for that purpose; that when he reached the jail he found a number of parties in the jail; that they had the appellant down upon the floor, tied, and were administering the water cure, a specie of torture well known to the bench and bar of the country."
• International Military Tribunal for the Far East. The Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, Chapter 8

  The practice of torturing prisoners of war and civilian internees prevailed at practically all places occupied by Japanese troops, both in the occupied territories and in Japan. The Japanese indulged in this practice during the entire period of the Pacific War. Methods of torture were employed in all areas so uniformly as to indicate policy both in training and execution. Among these tortures were the water treatment, burning, electric shocks, the knee spread, suspension, kneeling on sharp instruments and flogging.

• Evan J. Wallach, US Federal Judge [3] states that "we know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture."

Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

From Lawrence Cohen

• Washington Post, Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a counterterrorism specialist who taught at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE), said "As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening: I was being tortured.".
• CBS News, Larry Cox, Amnesty International USA's executive director. "Its own State Department has labeled water boarding torture when it applies to other countries." - On Bush administration.
• Public letter to Senator Patrick Leahy, "Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal." and "Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances.". From Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 2000-02; Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, United States Navy (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Navy, 1997-2000; Major General John L. Fugh, United States Army (Ret.) Judge Advocate General of the Army, 1991-93; Brigadier General David M. Brahms, United States Marine Corps (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant, 1985-88.
• Jewish human rights group, "Waterboarding -- an interrogation practice associated with the Spanish Inquisition and prosecuted under U.S. law as torture as much as a century ago -- is unquestionably torture."
• Galloway, famous war correspondent, Bronze Medal winner in Vietnam, "Is waterboarding torture? The answer to all of these questions, put simply, is yes."
• Mike Huckabee, Republican Presidential nominee, "He said the country should aggressively interrogate terrorism suspects and go after those who seek to do the country harm, but he objects to "violating our moral code" with torture. He said he believes waterboarding is torture."

I found these tonight. That's 15 notable views sourced. I think I can find more yet. This was just a casual and fairly lazy search. Lawrence Cohen 08:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Also from Hypnosadist, on these three. NYT, ABC News, BBC News. An ex-CIA interrogator is interviewed. Does not address questions of right or wrong, because the interview shows he believes the act of waterboarding is torture.

Now retired, Kiriakou, who declined to use the enhanced interrogation techniques, says he has come to believe that water boarding is torture but that perhaps the circumstances warranted it.

"Like a lot of Americans, I'm involved in this internal, intellectual battle with myself weighing the idea that waterboarding may be torture versus the quality of information that we often get after using the waterboarding technique," Kiriakou told ABC News. "And I struggle with it."

More sources yet on this. Lawrence Cohen 21:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

From Badagnani

• The Washington Post (December 9, 2007): "Waterboarding as an interrogation technique has its roots in some of history’s worst totalitarian nations, from Nazi Germany and the Spanish Inquisition to North Korea and Iraq. In the United States, the technique was first used five decades ago as a training tool to give U.S. troops a realistic sense of what they could expect if captured by the Soviet Union or the armies of Southeast Asia. The U.S. military has officially regarded the tactic as torture since the Spanish-American War."

Badagnani (talk) 03:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

From Akhilleus

• Cristián Correa, "Waterboarding Prisoners and Justifying Torture: Lessons for the U.S. from the Chilean Experience," Human Rights Brief 14.2 (2007) 21-25: "Despite its recent prevalence in the Western news media, waterboarding, or 'the submarine' (as it is known in some Latin American countries), is anything but novel in the realm of torture. Waterboarding entails many different methods of torture, each using water to suffocate detainees and provoke the sensation of drowning. The effect results within a few seconds or minutes and leaves no external injuries, thereby eluding a definition of torture which requires proof of injury, bleeding, or other physical harm. Waterboarding has been designed to cause intense psychological pain while granting technical impunity to those administering the punishment." --Akhilleus (talk) 07:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• George J. Annas, "Human Rights Outlaws: Nuremberg, Geneva, and the Global War on Terror," Boston University Law Review 87 (2007) 427ff.: "One such memo was prepared for the CIA and is reported to authorize the 'use of some 20 interrogation practices,' including waterboarding, a torture technique in which people are made to believe they might drown." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Adeno Addis, "'Informal' Suspension of Normal Processes: the 'War on Terror' as an Autoimmunity Crisis," Boston University Law Review 87 (2007) 323ff.: "Although prohibited by the U.S. Army and likely illegal under detainee legislation, 'waterboarding,' the torture technique in which a prisoner is secured with his feet over his head while water is poured on a cloth covering his face, is reportedly still practiced." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Christopher Kutz, "Torture, Necessity and Existential Politics," California Law Review 95 (2007) 235ff.: "The current administration of George W. Bush has decided not to pay those costs. Instead, it chooses to use coercive interrogation techniques that would conventionally be thought of as straightforwardly torturous, including water-boarding, false burial, "Palestinian hanging"...Insofar as the statutory definition of torture includes acts "specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering," which pain or suffering can result from "the threat of imminent death," orders to deploy waterboarding (which by design arouses a sensation of imminent death by drowning) would clearly have focused the minds of U.S. personnel on the consequences of the Torture statute." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• M. Cherif Bassiouni, "The Institutionalization of Torture under the Bush Administration," Case Western Reserve Journal of International Law 37 (2006) 389ff.: "Among some examples that may illustrate what was deemed permissible and which were actually carried out are: forcing a father to watch the mock execution of his 14-year old son; placing a lit cigarette in the ear of a detainee to burn his eardrum; bathing a person's hand in alcohol and then lighting it on fire; shackling persons to the floor for 18-24 hours; shackling persons from the top of a door frame to dislocate the shoulders, and gagging persons in order to create the effect of drowning in one's own saliva; 'waterboarding,' which is placing a cloth on a person's head and dousing it with water to create the effect of drowning...These practices sanctioned by the Administration are exactly what Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention prohibits, and what the CAT drafters of Article 1 wanted to avoid. The Administration's legal advisors preposterously claimed that the infliction of severe pain and suffering, as defined in Article 1 of the CAT, '[M]ust be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death" in order to constitute torture.'" --Akhilleus (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Amos N. Guiora and Erin M. Page, "The Unholy Trinity: Intelligence, Interrogation, and Torture," Case Western Reserve Journal of International Law 37 (2006) 427ff.: "Water-boarding, a Category III technique, induces the detainee to believe that death is imminent. This technique requires that the detainee be strapped or held down to induce the sensation of drowning as either water is repeatedly poured down the individual's throat or the head is immersed in water. Detainees who have experienced water-boarding have universally expressed an overwhelming fear because the method prevents breathing. Furthermore, according to some reports, a number of individuals have died as a result of water-boarding. There is little doubt that this technique represents torture,..." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Jon M. Van Dyke, "Promoting Accountability for Human Rights Abuses," Chapman Law Review 8 (2005) 153ff.: "To give just one of a number of possible examples, the United States has acknowledged utilizing the practice of 'water-boarding,' which involves strapping detainees to boards and immersing them in water to make them think they are drowning. This activity is clearly an example of 'torture' that violates the Torture Convention, but no one has been charged or prosecuted for authorizing or conducting this practice." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
• Evan Wallach, "Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts," Columbia Journal of Transnational Law 45 (2007) 468ff.: "'Water cure,' 'water torture,' 'water boarding.' Under whatever name, extreme interrogators have long prized the technique, which, unlike other interrogation methods, imposes severe mental trauma and physical pain but no traces of physical trauma that would be discoverable without an autopsy....Certainly, the United States has made it clear, in its courts, both civil and military, and before the national legislature, that water torture, by whatever name it is known, is indeed torture, that its infliction does indeed justify severe punishment, and that it is unacceptable conduct by a government or its representatives." --Akhilleus (talk) 05:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Scott Horton, "Kriegsraison or military necessity? The Bush Administration's Wilhelmine Attitude towards the Conduct of War," Fordham International Law Journal 30 (2007) 576ff.: "A specific practice of torture identified and punished by the United States as early as 1902, was a device known as "waterboarding" in which a detainee was through various means made to sense that he was drowning." --Akhilleus (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Jamie Meyerfield, "Playing by Our Own Rules: How U.S. Marginalization of International Human Rights Law Led to Torture," The Harvard Human Rights Journal 20 (2007) 89ff.: "The government, though it balks at the word "torture," has acknowledged the use of coercive methods. In a highly publicized speech on September 6, 2006, President Bush defended what he called 'an alternative set of procedures' used in a 'CIA program for questioning terrorists.' He refused to describe the authorized techniques, but several of them are common knowledge: waterboarding (or near-drowning),...Much of this abuse is rightly called torture...Several of the techniques--including sleep deprivation, forced standing, and waterboarding--are infamously associated with the Gestapo, Stalin's secret police, and the Inquisition...In State Department reports on other countries, sleep deprivation, waterboarding, forced standing, hypothermia, blindfolding, and deprivation of food and water are specifically referred to as torture." --Akhilleus (talk) 06:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Christian M. De Vos, "Mind the Gap: Purpose, Pain, and the Difference between Torture and Inhuman Treatment," Human Rights Brief 14 (2007) 4ff.: "Categorizing levels of ill-treatment and their respective criminality is a work of legal fiction that can confuse as often as it clarifies. For better or worse, these distinctions exist in law; however, if they are to serve any purpose, it should not be to permit states to evade criminal responsibility through artifice and technicality, the normative effect of which exceptionalizes torture when, in fact, it remains distressingly common. Indeed, it is a telling sign of our impoverished discourse on the subject that we are now left to wonder whether 'water-boarding' (or, in the more modest characterization of U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney, a 'dunk in the water') is perhaps not as bad as one might think." --Akhilleus (talk) 06:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Seth F. Kreimer, "'Torture Lite,' 'Full Bodied' Torture, and the Insulation of Legal Conscience," Journal of National Security Law & Policy 1 (2005) 194-195: "At the same time, CIA operatives undertook what might be called 'full bodied' torture of suspected terrorists in secret locations, including denial of pain medication, beatings, sensory assaults, and "water boarding." --Akhilleus (talk) 06:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Mary Ellen O'Connell, "Affirming the Ban on Harsh Interrogation," Ohio State Law Journal 66 (2005) 1231ff.: "Waterboarding involves tying someone to a board and dunking him underwater to the point he fears he will drown. It is plainly a form of torture." --Akhilleus (talk) 06:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Jonathan Hafetz, "Guantanamo and the 'Next Frontier' of Detainee Issues," Seton Hall Law Review 37 (2007) 700: "Meanwhile, the administration has held other prisoners at secret CIA-run detention centers, also known as 'black sites,' and subjected them to 'enhanced' interrogation techniques - the new euphemism for torture - including hypothermia, prolonged sleep deprivation, long time standing, and water-boarding, where the subject is made to feel he is being drowned." --Akhilleus (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Leonard S. Rubenstein, "First, Do No Harm: Health Professionals and Guantanamo," Seton Hall Law Review 37 (2007) 740: "According to the New York Times, psychologists also advised the CIA in devising its 'enhanced' interrogation techniques, including water-boarding, or feigned drowning. Indeed, because of their familiarity with, and authorization of, these forms of torture, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the participation of BSCT psychologists in the design of interrogation techniques significantly expanded the use of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment in the interrogation of terror suspects and in the infliction of severe or serious mental harm."
• Peter Jan Honigsberg, "Chasing 'Enemy Combatants' and Circumventing International Law: A License for Sanctioned Abuse," UCLA Journal of International Law and Foreign Affairs 12 (2007) 38: "In fact, Mohammed was presumably subject to the torture method known as water boarding." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Jordan J. Paust, "Above the Law: Unlawful Executive Authorizations Regarding Detainee Treatment, Secret Renditions, Domestic Spying, and Claims to Unchecked Executive Power," Utah Law Review (2007) 352-354: "Moreover, some CIA personnel have reported that approved Agency techniques include 'striking detainees in an effort to cause pain and fear,' 'the "cold cell"... [where d]etainees are held naked in a cell cooled to 50 degrees and periodically doused with cold water,' and '"waterboarding" ... [which produces] a terrifying fear of drowning,' each of which is manifestly illegal under the laws of war and human rights law and can result in criminal and civil sanctions for war crimes." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• David Luban, "Liberalism, Torture, and the Ticking Bomb," Virginia Law Review 91 (2005) 1431: "And torture terrorizes. The body in pain winces; it trembles. The muscles themselves register fear. This is rooted in pain's biological function of impelling us in the most urgent way possible to escape from the source of pain - for that impulse is indistinguishable from panic. U.S. interrogators have reportedly used the technique of 'waterboarding' to break the will of detainees. Waterboarding involves immersing the victim's face in water or wrapping it in a wet towel to induce drowning sensations. As anyone who has ever come close to drowning or suffocating knows, the oxygen-starved brain sends panic signals that overwhelm everything else." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Lisa Graves, "Ten Questions: Responses of Lisa Graves," William Mitchell Law Review 33 (2007) 1620: "The truth of our real policy is only amplified by the infamous Justice Department memos by John Yoo and (now judge) Jay Bybee asserting Geneva does not apply and construing 'torture' to allow numerous ineffective and appalling techniques that readers would rightly consider torture if imposed on them, such as waterboarding to near drowning, which passes Yoo-Bybee because the pain caused is not equivalent to organ failure. Although that part of the memo was withdrawn due to public outcry upon its discovery years after it was implemented, the Administration has refused to disavow the severely flawed underlying legal reasoning arguing for virtually unchecked power for the President." --Akhilleus (talk) 15:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
• Thomas F. Berndt & Alethea M. Huyser, "Student Note: Ghose Detainees: Does the Isolation and Interrogation of Detainees Violate Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions?" William Mitchell Law Review 33 (2007) 1739-1740: "Waterboarding is alleged to be the most extreme measure used by CIA interrogators. It is a technique in which the prisoner is "bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him." The effectiveness of the technique relies on creating in the mind of the detainee the feeling of drowning, essentially operating as a mock execution. Mental health professionals report mock executions to have significant mental effects on detainees. Mock executions have been cited by both domestic and international authorities as constituting torture."
• Owen Fiss, "Law Is Everywhere," The Yale Law Journal 117 (2007) 260: "It suggested that two practices until then universally understood as torture - the use of scenarios designed to convince detainees that death is imminent, and use of a wet towel and dripping water to induce fear of suffocation ('water-boarding') - though forbidden 'as a matter of policy ... at this time,' nonetheless 'may be legally available.'" --Akhilleus (talk) 15:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

From Hypnosadist

• Gary Solis Adjunct professor, Georgetown University Law Center and former Marine Corps judge advocate and military judge. [4] "It remains amazing that, in 2007, any intelligent person can have any question that waterboarding constitutes torture, morally and ethically wrong, and contrary to U.S. law, U.S.-ratified multi-national treaties, and international criminal law."^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Mike McConnell Director of National Intelligence [5] "Asked if waterboarding -- the practice of covering a person's face with a cloth and then dripping water on it to bring on a feeling of drowning -- fit that definition, McConnell said that for him personally, it would." ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• This [6] report Leave No Marks: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques and the Risk of Criminality by Physicians for Human Rights and Human Rights First has a section on waterboarding and the long term effects of torture as well as the legal aspects of torture.

From Edison

• Attorney Andrew Williams, on resigning from Navy Judge Advocate General corps [7] (Knight Ridder pres wire service, Dec 27, 2007.) called it torture. Williams in his resignation letter said waterboarding was used as a form of torture by the Inquisition, and by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempietai. He cites the post-WW2 conviction of Japanese Officer Yukio Asano for waterboarding resulting in a 15 year sentence. Edison (talk) 14:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• The first Secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge, said ""There's just no doubt in my mind — under any set of rules — waterboarding is torture," in an interview with the Associated Press, and at a conference of the American Bar Association. He further said "One of America's greatest strengths is the soft power of our value system and how we treat prisoners of war, and we don't torture," ... "And I believe, unlike others in the administration, that waterboarding was, is — and will always be — torture. That's a simple statement." A week previous to the Ridge statement that waterboarding is torture, Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnellsaid that he would considere waterboarding torture if it were used against him. Reproduced at [8]. Edison (talk) 02:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

From GregorB

• American Civil Liberties Union press release: ACLU Outlines Ways Waterboarding has Already Been Declared Illegal by the Federal Government. Says that "American Civil Liberties Union presents indisputable evidence that waterboarding has been repeatedly classified as torture and is banned by U.S. law." Christopher Anders, senior legislative counsel for the ACLU Washington Legislative Office says: "it is hard to find a more clear-cut form of torture than waterboarding". Another text from ACLU, What is Waterboarding?, describes it as "a paradigmatic torture technique that has long been considered a war crime". GregorB (talk) 12:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Malcolm Nance, a counter-terrorism and terrorism intelligence consultant for the U.S. government's Special Operations, Homeland Security, and Intelligence agencies: Waterboarding is Torture… Period. Nance has already been mentioned here as a source. In this article he makes three main points: 1) "Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period.", 2) "Waterboarding is not a simulation.", 3) "If you support the use of waterboarding on enemy captives, you support the use of that torture on any future American captives." Says also: "There is No Debate Except for Torture Apologists". GregorB (talk) 12:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

From Henrik

Navy Lt. Cmdr Charles Swift (ret.) is interviewed on MSNBC's Countdown, broadcast January 17, 2008, (available here) is quoted as saying the following

Plus we have reports, that are credible, that waterboarding, forced nudity, prolonged isolation, are what we are doing. We may parse it legally, they are not in Europe or Canada or Great Britain. They call it for what it is, torture. This debate, which for us, continues politically in Congress is over in Europe. It's over in Canada. We're losing it there, it's done."

henrik•talk 19:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

A Navy Lt. Cmdr in his role as JAG is definitely an expert authority on whether waterboarding is or is not torture. A verifiable legal authority. Lawrence Cohen 20:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, just to make it clear for those who missed it while reading the article: He is retired from the US Navy and currently working as a law professor. henrik•talk 20:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

A Navy Lt. Cmdr Jag who is speaking for JAG, may be a reliable source for JAG. However, if he is speaking for himself, he is only speaking for himself. Was the interview one in which he represented his views as those of the NAVY Jag or as his own? Or did he not say? If he did not say, we may not presume that he speaks for anyone other than himself. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

He's speaking for himself being a retired Jag, anyone going to call him anti-american? He can be added as yet another source. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:07, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Complete bullshit. We don't devalue sources in this way. Once your an expert, you're an expert, period, full stop. Lawrence Cohen 06:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is acceptable

Not exactly, but pretty close. See below. Remember (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

"..NEWSWEEK has learned that Yoo's August 2002 memo was prompted by CIA questions about what to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative. And it was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel William Haynes and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's counsel, who discussed specific interrogation techniques, says a source familiar with the discussions. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding," or dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face, which can feel like drowning; and threatening to bring in more-brutal interrogators from other nations."Link to article.

Not Relevant - whether a form of torture is acceptable or not has more to do with the ethics of a government. This still does not deny that waterboarding is torture.Nospam150 (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Just about everyone on Fox News, including both the right and left pundits on The Beltway Boys. See, both sides agree. Obviously, it must be fair and balanced to say that people in the US believe it isn't torture it is torture it's acceptable if it gets results, whatever it's called. Thompsontough (talk) 05:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources that say it is unclear whether waterboarding is torture or not

Andrew C. McCarthy and Mary Jo White say it's not certain. Both are notable attorneys.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, again, quote where White says that? I don't see it. Lawrence Cohen 17:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

FOUND ACCEPTABLE is OBFUSCATION. That is a different question altogether. Is it acceptable to euthanize the whitehouse, probably these days; is it legal, no. Big difference. Therefore we do not do it. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat here for the sake of continuity: Although, as a civilized people, our immediate and commendable instinct is to declare waterboarding repugnant and unlawful, that answer is not necessarily correct in all circumstances. The operative legal language (both legislative and judicial) does not explicitly bar waterboarding or any other specific technique of interrogation. Instead, it bars methods that are considered to be "torture," "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" or that "shock the conscience."

And for those who doubt that the CIA would take this seriously, they've been known to rule against other important operations.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 19:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This of course is nonsense. See above for links to articles that better explain why. In short, UNCAT does not specify which acts constitute torture, nevertheless you will have great difficulty explaining to a judge that pulling out fingernails and applying electricity to the genitals is not torture. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And additionally, it would be a violation of WP:SYN for us to use this, in this way. Lawrence Cohen 15:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure which element of my post you're pointing to wrt WP:SYN. If you mean my link to the the "other important ops" then, sure, but I was only using that preemtively. There are those who aren't willing to accept that the CIA's lawyers are serious lawyers.

Or, were you referring to Nomen's reply to me? That does seem to be something akin to synthesis. After all, much of the "is-torture" POV rests upon a group aggreement about what opponents merely believe to be torture.

UNCAT provides an interesting item that says of the European court, "the use of the five techniques of sensory deprivation and even the beatings of prisoners are not torture." If it's possible that beatings aren't necessarily torture then who's to say that properly controlled waterboarding is? I'm not sure I understand that yet but it may be worth looking into.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't being clear. I'm basically saying, it's not our place to analyze whether it is or isn't torture, at all, ever. Wikipedia is a teritiary source, only. We aren't going to analyze and conceive of research over whether waterboarding is or isn't torture. We don't care. We only care what sources say. If the overwhelming weight of the sources say, "It's torture," we report as a fact in the article that its torture, full stop. If a minority fringe viewpoint exists that goes contrary to accepted society consensus, which says its not torture on that line, then we can report that, "But such-and-such person considers it not torture." If the weight of sources we reversed, the situation would be reversed, and we'd say "Its not torture, but such and such says it is." A good comparison might be articles on Intellegient design. They say that ID is not accepted as valid science (because its not, based on the overwhelming volume of sources) but the articles fairly make clear who considers it to be valid. That's all we can do. We will not under any circumstances advance a particular minority viewpoint or the viewpoint of any government over everything else in the article. Lawrence Cohen 17:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you just hit on why you have that wrong. For example, what you're saying would be perfectly true if the question was merely about whether it's intended for water to go into the lungs. It either does or it doesn't. The answer (which I won't argue here) should be an objective fact based on medical science and observation.

I don't see any of your sources that are factual like that. They are all opinions. Some are better than others, but they're still opinions. Add up all the opinions and then you might have a consensus of opinion but that doesn't make it into scientific truth. In fact, this is exactly why intelligent design meets the fringe category. Just imagine if somebody found 100 lawyers and politicians to assert that ID is valid science, and see how far that flies.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That was a contrasting example, and nothing more. Irregardless of anything else, Wikipedia does not report anything that is not sourced, full stop. If all we have are opinions--which isn't the case, and false for you to say, as we also have court decisions listed here, then we go with the overwhelming weight of notable views and opinions. Please provide a weight of sources that indicate waterboarding is not torture, from reliable sources, or else we're just spinning in circles that won't change the fact that per policy we're only going to be saying "waterboarding is torture". I suspect some people have some sort of personal reasoning or external to Wikipedia reasons to want this, but that doesn't have any value for us and thankfully never will. Lawrence Cohen 19:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

When have I ever asked for something to be included that it not sourced? I've disputed the relevance of some sources we have here. I may have also disputed items or suggested a view without mentioning a source but I never thought about adding something for which a source couldn't conceivably be found.

I'm sorry if you have something that's not an opinion but I don't see it. As I understand it, court decisions are legal opinions. For example, the case for evolution lost in the Scopes Trial. That was merely a legal opinion. It didn't change the facts of the science of evolution.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 20:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This entire runaway thread is based on a false premise, it is OBFUSCATION. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding,". There is a big difference between acceptable (in some cases) and is or is not torture. Some people are confusing the concepts of Waterboarding {is/is not} torture Vs Waterboarding {is/is not} okay under some circumstances. This confusion has been accidental in some cases, and very deliberate obfuscation in others (certain politicians).

There are some interesting points in all this text such touching on the fact that EUCOJ putting the brits use of sensory deprivation on Irish Republicans under "cruel and unusual" as opposed to "torture" however, there is nothing in all this block about a source saying waterboarding is not torture. This thread is as relevant to it's cat "Sources that say it is not torture" as the Uncylopedia entry I have below on Waterboarding in the Gaza Strip, or Santa. This is not a source, it is a debate over nothing. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ding! I've never once talked about whether it's acceptable, just whether it is/isn't torture based on the sources. And Randy, actually, I'm quite aware of what an opinion versus a fact is. However, unless you're prepared to counter every single source listed with evidence and analysis of why the views expressed are not valid for us to use to state that waterboarding is torture, there's nothing else to be done. It is not our decision. We can only report what sources say. If we have essentially one pundit/ex-United States prosecutor saying, "Waterboarding isn't torture," and volumes of other other sources and experts saying it is, where do you suspect that leaves us? Lawrence Cohen 20:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with every source. I'm merely saying that every source appears to represent an opinion. (If I'm wrong then please point to one that isn't.) The cumulative weight of all these opinions doesn't turn them into a fact.

It would be factual to say something like "waterboarding is considered torture by most legal experts.". It is merely expressing an opinion to say "waterboarding is torture." That could even be a good opinion -- an opinion held for 500 years -- but it's still an opinion.

I suggest we look here for guidance: WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - It is also, then, by this reasoning, an opinion to state that macaroni is a type of noodle, or that Easter is a type of holiday. Again, you should probably try to change the title of Rack (torture) if you want to so radically redefine the term "torture" Badagnani (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Waterboarding is a type of controlled drowning, that has been long considered a form of torture by numerous experts." ? Lawrence Cohen 21:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's better. I wouldn't even argue if you used "most experts" but I would prefer we found another term for expert.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 22:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a SOURCES discussion on two VERY NARROW issues. Sources that say that WB (or a reasonably read torture definition that would cover it) IS, or IS NOT torture. Not a debate, Andrew C. McCarthy and Mary Jo White do not go there at all - they are seeking to cast possible doubt or questions on whether it is not torture - but nothing more. It's all part of the same deliberate US obfuscation tactics I mention above. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• Patrick Lee, "Interrogational Torture," The American Journal of Jurisprudence 51 (2006) 143n43: "Whether water-boarding is torture in the proper sense is not clear. It seems to be a very effective practice for obtaining desired information, but it does not seem to cause at least any long-lasting harm. One might at first think that it is an instance of mock execution, but it does not cause the detainee really to think that he will die. One might argue that it does not reduce the detainee to a 'dis-integrated' state, because the process seems to be effective so quickly. It seems to bring about in the individual an almost intolerable feeling of impending harm or even death. On the other hand, one might argue that being in such a state is being in a severely 'dis-integrated' state. If the first argument is correct then I think it is not torture and that it is (in some cases) morally permissible. If the second argument is correct, then it is torture and it is morally wrong. I am not sure which argument is correct." --Akhilleus (talk) 16:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources that assert waterboarding is not torture

Add sources here. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 03:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Glenn Beck and Joseph Farah, notable conservative pundits; Congressman Ted Poe, a licensed attorney. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 14:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Do Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity count? Thompsontough (talk) 05:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Other comments

• Uncyclopedia. Waterboarding is an extreme sport popular among surfers on Middle Eastern beaches. Only recommended for experienced wandsurfers, this sport requires a long, narrow, wedge-shaped board. Practitioners secure themselves to the waterboard and ride, face-down, on the slightest currents. The tide off the Gaza strip is perfect for this sport in summer. [[9]] Inertia Tensor (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
• Santa Claus. Though he has not stated it is not torture, there is no record anywhere of him saying waterboarding is torture, on monday, when the trees grow, or when the sun is low. We are still checking whether he said it at other times, and until we can confirm, we should not say waterboarding is torture. Inertia Tensor (talk) 10:05, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not necessary to mock the process. I share your opinion that waterboarding is torture, but I think Lawrence is making sincere efforts to find a consensus and we should respect that. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 10:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I believe this is not mocking the process, but (some of) its participants... What Lawrence is doing here is really exemplary. GregorB (talk) 10:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Exactly. Anyway, if this gets resolved, I will be calling on all participants to push an RfA for Lawrence. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually, this arguement clearly deserves mocking. Simple logic leads to the direct conclusion that waterboarding is torture. Some group of people WHO ARE USING IT say its not torture. That reeks of bias. We can rely on the US government for laws, but we can't rely on them for facts.--Can Not (talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
          • And a group who are not using it are saying that it is; more bias! Relying on the US (or any) government for facts is usually not indicated. htom (talk) 04:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand how it could not be torture. Even if it causes no "pain" in the traditional sense, if it is capable of making someone so physically uncomfortable that they will do something against their will, then what is it? It is also true that something like the forced Russian Roulette games in the Deer Hunter were not causing "pain" in the traditional sense, but would that not be considered torture? If the captured American soldiers were being waterboarded by Al-Qaeda, would that be okay? The intellectual dishonesty of not calling it torture astounds me 98.207.98.174 (talk) 19:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Re-Proposal

I mentioned this idea above and in the RFC, but I thought I would get a formal vote on this since many people did not actually debate it or voice their opinion. How would everyone feel about changing the lead to state "Waterboarding is a form of torture (see classification as torture)..." The advantages of this approach is that it allows those to quickly access the debate about this issue if they want to find it (as I think many of the internet traffic does), it does not push any POV and simply links to later in the page, and it links to the area that provides full support as well as details the intricacies related to the statement "waterboarding is a form of torture". Remember (talk) 14:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Votes to support

1. Remember (talk) 14:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
2. I would agree. This links to the place in the article where more information and references can be found. That helps. The intricacies can be explained at that location. Jehochman ^Talk 14:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC) I no longer agree. Jehochman ^Talk 20:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
3. A good lead should be non-weaselly and non-inflammatory. I'm not sure if this is possible at all, but this is the closest one so far, IMO. GregorB (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
4. Not a bad proposal. henrik•talk 15:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
5. Support. Factually accurate, and can be used to draw attention to limited in scope domestic US controversy. Lawrence Cohen 15:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
6. Support: seems like a reasonable compromise. Personally, I'd also want to link the first use of torture in that sentence, but I think that is very much a second-order thing. -- The Anome (talk) 16:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
7. I think this is a fine proposal. The main issue with regard to the term torture is that it carries the connotation that "the current US administration used methods of torture". It automatically does so, and we cannot totally avoid this. But qualifying the use of the term with regard to the ongoing media controversy is probably our best shot at avoiding POV. Dorfklatsch 22:03, January 4, 2008
8. Support: We are not here to adopt doublespeak and newspeak, even when advanced by the US. Clearly experts overwhelmingly agree it is torture so to ignore that merely because public opinion within the US is influenced by its administration is a logical fallacy. Nowhere does public opinion trump expert opinion! Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Votes to oppose

• Oppose - I oppose this because it continues to push a POV. Adding a link does nothing to remove or mitigate the POV-pushing. The first six words of the article are vitally important. They cannot show even the slightest sign of bias. In America, the place where more than half of the world's native speakers of English reside, this entry in Wikipedia will be perceived as biased. This affects the credibility of the entire project. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 15:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

So do you object to the addition or just feel that the addition doesn't do anything to allay your concerns about the statement "waterboarding is a form of torture" as the intro to the article? If it is the later, then isn't your vote neutral to the addition I proposed but an objection to the whole lead sentence? Remember (talk) 18:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, only three of the first six words are critical. :) _Jame§^ugrono 06:15, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I an US born US resident and I would find any implication _other_ than it being torture to be biased. Please don't read into the whole American psyche. There is nobody who questions if it is torture except people that have a political motive. This can be tested by checking if US soldiers can be acceptably waterboarded by other nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.98.174 (talk) 19:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - The section linked to (entitled "Classification as torture") should logically describe the historical definition of this practice as torture, not simply one vague introductory sentence about pre-2001 definitions, then the rest of the entire section about the views of a single administration of a single nation. Badagnani (talk) 22:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

So do you oppose the addition of the link in the lead or are you just suggesting that the linked section should be more informative regarding the classification of waterboarding as torture? If you just object to the informative nature of the linked section, could you please change your vote to neutral on link for lead and oppose the current status of the Classification as torture section (which currently cannot be improved due to the article protection). I think this would more accurately describe your vote. Remember (talk) 22:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - The rest of the article could definitely use improvement, that is true, and this could let us focus on something other than the lead for a change. Why not give it a chance? henrik•talk 23:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the first six words of the article are an "in your face" violation of WP:NPOV. This violation cannot and must not be ignored. Thanks. 209.221.240.193 (talk) 15:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

But this isn't a debate about the first six words. This is a debate about adding the link. How do you feel about adding the link? Remember (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Shibumi2 (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Any reason?Remember (talk) 23:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - The real problem is not addressed. Neutral Good (talk) 00:28, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, doesn't that mean that you are neutral to the addition, but you think there are other major problems with the article that need fixing? The question is do you specifically object to the addition of a link in the lead and if so why? Remember (talk) 00:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - I do not see this as particularly different than the current lead. The problem of flagrant violations of WP:NPOV remain (or are even worse) and I do not believe wikipedia should express opinions as facts. --Blue Tie (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, doesn't that mean that you are neutral to the addition, but you think there are other major problems with the lead that need fixing? I'm not asking you to support the current lead. I asking you for your opinion on the minor addition of the link to the lead. If you object to this please state so and why? Remember (talk) 17:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point, but No. I consider the addition to increase the intensity of the already bad NPOV problem by further reinforcing the impression that it is a fact that the Waterboarding is Torture, when in fact that is disputed. That is the way I see it. Furthermore you did not ask just about the addition but about the whole lead -- which is what I responded to. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - This argument of inclusion of such a link is a step (but only one step of many) in the right direction, but completely misses the problem that needs to be solved and still leaves the primary issue unsolved. Furthermore, you cannot separate the first six words of this article from the link you are proposing. "Waterboarding is a form of torture..." unequivocally states that it is a form of torture when its status is disputed. Making a conclusion (that either it is or isn't torture) is disingenuous and does not present NPOV. Furthermore, this issue is being decided at ArbCom and such a discussion here without their guidance is liable to be either an exercise in futility or an unnecessary duplication of efforts. I highly recommend putting in feedback there. — BQZip01 — ^talk 19:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• Reply to 209.221.240.193: Local politics, and feeling related to them, are not Wikipedia's concerns. Our mission is our own, and we don't take into account political implications or national feelings based on reporting information from outside sources. Lawrence Cohen 15:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Resolution

I am going to add the link to the lead right now. There is roughly 2-to-1 votes to support the proposal and most of the opposition votes oppose the use of the words "Waterboarding is a form of torture" rather than really opposing the link. If people feel adverse to this, please feel free to voice your opinions below. Please do not revert without some discussion first. I am not intent on pushing this without consensus, but I feel that we have as much consensus for this proposal as we will for anything else on this page at the moment. Remember (talk) 22:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Is waterboarding a form of torture, based on sources?

See Talk:Waterboarding/Definition for the discussion and place your comments there.

• Of course. The extremely few dissenting voices barely qualify even as a fringe. Claiming anything else is simply politically motivated dissembling. That we have to have this discussion reflects bad on "western civilization" (ref. Gandhi)--Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Politically motivated dissembling" is exactly right. There needs to be some way that we can bring this to an end, because it seems like on hot-potato articles like this, there is a (perhaps unconscious) tactic of extending discussion to an interminable length until people stop watching, and then a "consensus" is established in favor of a decidedly non-encyclopedic characterization of the subject. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:47, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• Tricks have been tried. See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/GooseCreek and Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Shamulou. Wikipedia needs an uninvolved administrator to close the RfC, and then Wikipedia needs to eject any editors who persist in disrupting the article with argumentum ad nauseum. Jehochman ^Talk 21:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Eject them based upon what policy? --Blue Tie (talk) 10:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• (ec) Is water wet? Do planes fly? Agree with the above comments by Stephan, Akhilleus and Jehochman. Briefly, R. Baley (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• Based on the extensive sourcing research and discussion, unless you have a watery bag over your head, I can't imagine not seeing it as torture. No pun intended, and I mean this in all seriousness. Functionally speaking, based on sourcing, only individuals who are somewhat politically conservative in the American sense are actually arguing against the torture definition in their extremely minority sourcing. The political views of less than 50% of the registered political population of one nation out of hundreds in the world should not be used to discount historical evidence, and all other wider accepted consensus views of what something is: Waterboarding is a form of torture. Lawrence Cohen 22:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• I can do considerably more than conceive of it being torture even without a bag over my head, and have no problems considering it perhaps not to be torture with or without a bag. Are you really reading the discussion? htom (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• I suspect that he isn't. The charge of "politically motivated dissembling" doesn't stick. Andrew C. McCarthy and Mary Jo White are Democrats, both of them say "waterboarding may not be torture," they would be saying "waterboarding is torture" to gain an advantage for the democratic Party if they were politically motivated, and this is about the fourth time that fact has been pointed out for the "waterboarding is torture" crowd. Please stop misrepresenting the evidence. Neutral Good (talk) 00:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Nonsense. They may believe that showing toughness is good for their party ("the softies are voting democratic anyways"), they may believe it's good for their political career (and damn the party line), they may put what they think is their county's interest above what you think is their party's interest, they may think "protecting our guys in the field is more important than party politics", they may think that appearing to protect "our guys in the field" is good politics. Anyways, they are part of a marginal fringe group and have no significant weight of opinion compared to all the other sources. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
• Also, do you have a source for the claim that Andrew C. McCarthy is a Democrat? Likewise, I cannot find any party affiliation for White - and neither of them is a career politician, anyways. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
• Both were appointed to their Justice department positions by Democrat Bill Clinton. We are known by the company we keep. Neutral Good (talk) 03:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not evidence that McCarthy and White are Democrats. Believe it or not, a President can select people of the opposite party for appointed positions. As for "the company we keep", McCarthy's Wikipedia article says that he "has served as an attorney for Rudy Giuliani, and is also a conservative opinion columnist who writes for National Review and Commentary." Do many Democrats write for those publications? Oh, and why do your recent edits pertaining to McCarthy's position leave out the quote "waterboarding is close enough to torture that reasonable minds can differ on whether it is torture", found in the Wikipedia article about him? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You say his Wikipedia article says that? Are you aware that even Jimmy Wales admits that Wikipedia articles aren't necessarily reliable? Neutral Good (talk) 03:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not the answer of a person who's engaging in reasonable discussion. You already know that Andrew C. McCarthy has written for National Review--you did bother to read the articles you're citing in this article, right? You can also easily determine whether Andrew C. McCarthy has written for Commentary and worked for Giuliani--shall I point out that you are the one who started talking about his employment history? And, once again, why did you leave out the quote where McCarthy says "waterboarding is close enough to torture that reasonable minds can differ on whether it is torture"? --Akhilleus (talk) 03:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring points when proven wrong is a hallmark of trying to prolong a losing debate, or one with no factual standing. Lawrence Cohen 03:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, it's torture. Based on the references, I can't believe it's even up for debate. This seems like a classic example of undue weight, and it seems there's something going on to keep this page at an impasse. Snowfire51 (talk) 04:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• It was considered torture up until 2001. I see no new medical or scientific evidence since then that would overturn the consensus, only political bickering. Having said that, I'm also happy to go with some wording similar to my suggested lead[10] which points out the historic classification as torture (looking back, I would also add the Khmer Rouge) but avoids saying it is actually torture, since that has been the main point of contention here. I would also be happy to go with only historical or peer-reviewed papers for the definition itself, in which case it would be described as torture. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• THAT'S IT! The magic formula with which no one can possibly disagree:

"Waterboarding was a method of torture from the time of the Spanish Inquisition until 2001, when President George W. Bush legalized it by executive order."

How about that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.67.2 (talk) 15:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably a joke, but judging from the arguments that "we can't say waterboarding is torture" on the Arbitration Evidence page we may well end up with some kind of bizarre compromise lead that does indeed state that waterboarding was universally regarded as torture throughout history, until 2001 when its legal status in the United States was changed by Executive Order of President Bush. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 14:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Mike McConnell

Describes waterboarding as torture - possibly [11]. BLACKKITE 11:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: the BBC article cited above, which is based on an interview of McConnell by Lawrence Wright for The New Yorker magazine, leads with the following:

"US national intelligence chief Mike McConnell has said the interrogation technique of water-boarding "would be torture" if he were subjected to it.

Mr McConnell said it would also be torture if water-boarding, which involves simulated drowning, resulted in water entering a detainee's lungs.

He told the New Yorker there would be a "huge penalty" for anyone using it if it was ever determined to be torture."

See here for the AP coverage of the same interview. As of the time of this comment, the article does not yet appear have been posted on the New Yorker website. See also here for the Washington Post coverage.

-- The Anome (talk) 15:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting in two ways. One relates to this article. His criteria (or was he quoting some source?) is that how it is conducted is the determination of torture or not. That is relevant to this article. The second interesting thing is the huge penalties bit. I wonder if ex post facto would apply -- is he referring to people in the future or in the past? --Blue Tie (talk) 15:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where you read that. As far as I can tell, he considers it torture in all cases where a) it is applied to him or b) it leads to water in the lungs or c) it works. He makes no comment on any circumstances where it would not be considered torture. He only has reservations about the legal classification - and that only because of the fallout, not for any remotely factual reason. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also interesting that he is described as saying, according to the Washington Post: "[McConnell] declined for legal reasons to say whether the technique categorically should be considered torture."

This raises an interesting possibility: is it possible that many sources connected with the Bush administration may well actually believe waterboarding is torture, but feel compelled to say in public that it is not, on the basis that they would otherwise be incriminating themselves? As Mandy Rice-Davies said in another context: "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?"

Given McConnell's comments, perhaps one of his first actions in his new post was to issue an order that waterboarding stop, and that is why he can speak candidly on this matter? -- The Anome (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. Maybe not. Speculation. Not relevant to the article. --Blue Tie (talk) 16:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Surely everybody agrees that should waterboarding be torture the entire Bush administration might end up behind bars because of command responsibility. This is a major incentive for people to insist it is not a war crime. To cite Lenny Bruce "deny it. If she has pictures, deny it. If she walks in on you, deny it." Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 15:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I actually do not agree with that. So it is wrong to say "everybody". --Blue Tie (talk) 16:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that if waterboarding is torture it still is not a war crime? Hmm, I urge you to read about jus in bello and that torturing detainees is considered a violation and as such a war crime. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 16:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I am saying that I disagree with the statement: "should waterboarding be torture the entire Bush administration might end up behind bars because of command responsibility". And I think others would also. Again, just because you believe something is a certain way does not mean that wikipedia must abide by your wisdom. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course, such possibilities are not our concern in the crafting an article. Wikipedia is not responsible or concerned with external social or political repercussions derived from article content, when consensus supports that the article is compliant with our policies. Personal views are also irrelevant. Wikipedia doesn't give a fig what your values and opinion on Waterboarding are, nor mine. Lawrence Cohen 17:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I almost replied that "We should not be writing a blog here", but decided this was an important aspect of Nescio's concerns. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't see how it was missed that McConnell said:

“ If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful! ”

Badagnani (talk) 18:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, this is not a comment pertinent to this topic, but gosh I had to laugh when I just read that. Anyone who has surfed surely knows what this is like but even anyone who has just swam at a pool probably has some experience with this god-awful pain! LOL. Sorry folks... I could not resist.--Blue Tie (talk) 18:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - If you found McConnell's quote funny (and that is the extent of your comment about it), perhaps you would also find this article quite amusing. Badagnani (talk) 18:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone object to my adding at least the basic quote to Waterboarding#Controversy_in_the_United_States? For instance, after the Andrew C. McCarthy quote, I can put

John Michael McConnell, the U.S. Director of National Intelligence, has stated that, "If I had water draining into my nose, oh God, I just can't imagine how painful! Whether it's torture by anybody else's definition, for me it would be torture."

I would source from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7185648.stm , because I don't know if the New Yorker article is online. Superm401 - Talk 02:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason to add it more than others, and frankly I find that quote to be absurd -- so reason to exclude it in my eye. If this were really a big deal controversy, his comments would be fodder for comedians. Its just not very good. --Blue Tie (talk) 03:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV proposal #42

I propose:

Waterboarding is a practice used for interrogation or punishment that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning in a controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

The torture issue can be covered later in the article by saying what the authorities on the subject say. Those who dispute the mainstream view can also be covered. It will be up to the reader to decide what to think. Jehochman ^Talk 21:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think not mentioning the t word is going to solve the problem - it will just move it a paragraph down. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 00:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Change of lead from properly sourced and accurate "a form of torture" to equivocal language, as forced by several months of politically motivated hammering should not occur, causing the lead to change the very definition of this well understood practice, which is considered a form of torture by 147 sources (with four politically motivated sources from a single nation stating the opinion that it is not a form of torture). This fringe opinion must not be privileged in the lead, by changing the very definition of this practice. Badagnani (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• The politically motivated hammering was looking for something else, I think. Can you point out any factual inaccuracy in what I proposed? Can you point out any weasel words or ambiguity? Jehochman ^Talk 21:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The weasel word is "practice" in the sentence "Waterboarding is a practice used for interrogation or punishment", which in itself is a textbook definition of torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - From this comment, I don't believe you've read all the discussion archives. It is very important that you do so before commenting or proposing further. Badagnani (talk) 21:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• The archives are voluminous. We should not require people to read many hundreds of pages before participating. If somebody wants to summarize past discussions, they are free to do so. Jehochman ^Talk 22:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

No read the archives, i've had to waste months of my life on this attempt to whitewash waterboarding you can spend an hour reading all the arguments. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 23:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - This earlier post may be of relevance: It's very clear what is going on here with this "debate," as I've seen it many times before. The aim is to hammer an issue until the text shows ambiguity regarding its definition, and the illusion of a debate over the very definition of a thing. This is, in the minds of those wishing to make this technique available, a battle for public opinion, and Wikipedia, which is the 8th most visited website in the world and constantly used as a reference, is seen as a key battleground. By abusing the high value we place on working together and consensus, even small concessions such as acknowledging in the lead that there is a significant debate whether this form of torture really is a form of torture--even with a link to this "debate" later in the article is a victory of sorts. Most of the public never feels strongly one way or another about any subject, and if they can be desensitized to this one by reading text saying something like "within the United States, there is a healthy debate whether it really is torture," then the side favoring the technique's use has again scored a victory, as most of those reading that text may simply shrug their shoulders and move on to other things. You see, the aim of the hammering is not actually to get a redefinition, but to create just enough ambivalence/ambiguity to engender this "shoulder-shrugging" effect among the general public. Badagnani (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Throughout history, in the world view, nobody except very recently has debated whether waterboarding is torture, as far as I know. The recent political controversy should be covered in the article, but not in the lead. That would give the controversy undue weight. If you notice, my proposal does not hint at any sort of controversy or ambiguity. That statements are all quite certain about what waterboarding is, how it works, and what happens to the subject of this treatment. I hope you will have a bit of confidence that at 10,000+ edits, I am not a meat puppet for anybody else. Jehochman ^Talk 22:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman is not a meatpuppet, i'm not a sock puppet, can we all stop slinging accusations around unless you have A LOT OF PROOF! ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - What it does seem to show that our collaborative, good faith process (and editors who follow such a mode of editing) can be co-opted by several months' worth of ceaseless politically motivated hammering, to the extent of actually changing the definition of a well-understood practice. Badagnani (talk) 22:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Being tendentious won't help. What is the inaccuracy or ambiguity in my proposal. Other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT, what is your specific objection>? Jehochman ^Talk 22:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• "Although waterboarding can be performed in ways that leave no lasting physical damage" - There is no way to perform this technique in a way which guarantees no lasting physical damage. You will not find a reliable source for this statement. There is always a risk of death etc.

"controlled environment and is made to believe that death is imminent" - there isn't a real control; the subject can really die even though it may not be the express intent of the interrogator. It's not just a belief - death really is imminent if the process is not stopped and some attempt made to empty the victim's lungs. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 22:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I would support adjusting these statements to state better-sourced claims. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 22:48, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Sure, let's do that. I have no problem adjusting or removing these statements to better fit the sources. Jehochman ^Talk 07:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Question - Is it your intention, as part of this proposal, to completely exclude any mention of torture out of the lead? I ask because I noticed that this draft looks a lot like one I wrote a while ago but deletes the second paragraph. I would prefer a lead that started out like this but then added at least a sentence such as

Waterboarding is widely considered torture by present-day and historical sources [source, source, etc.] but there has been recent controversy over this matter in the United States.

(I would not want to go into much further detail than that in the lead.) Would you be okay with a sentence such as this (e.g. in a paragraph of its own appended to your proposed draft)? —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think a two or three paragraph lead, as currently, is appropriate for an article of this length. I would be fine with Jehochman's initial paragraph is the second paragraph clearly stated its historical status of being used as torture something like:

Waterboarding has been used as a form of torture since the Spanish Inquisition. It was used by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, by the Japanese in World War II, by U.S. troops in the Philippines and by the French in Algeria. Under the name "Asian Torture" it was widely used in Latin America, particularly under the military dictatorships in Chile and Argentina during the 1970s.

(Not a proposal that above, just a quick sketch of what it could look like - feel free to whip it into shape). It is important to show that it has historically been used as torture, and I think we would be remiss if we did not mention it in the lead. The third paragraph could mention the current controversy in the U.S. Would anyone have any problems with this structure:

• Paragraph 1: describe the method.
• Paragraph 2: show historical use
• Paragraph 3: describe current controversy in the U.S.

Thoughts, comments? henrik•talk 23:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This sounds pretty good to me, though I would not want Paragraph 3 to consist of more than two sentences. A single sentence, or two if really necessary, is plenty for the current United States controversy; anything beyond that would be too U.S.-centric for the lead of an article about a practice historically used all over the world. The rest of the details can go in a section in the article further down, or even in a separate article if there's a lot to say. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 00:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, keeping it to a sentence or two is my thought as well. henrik•talk 00:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose (Jehochman's original proposal, that is). By trying to get around the clear and well-sourced "torture", you run into all kinds of trouble. The sources describe at least two other uses except for interrogation and punishment (training, e.g. of CIA agents, and elicitation of wrong confessions, e.g. in the case of the Khmer Rouge), and I can think of several more: Sexual satisfaction of the torturer (sadism), of the victim (masochism), and blackmail (do what I want/pay money, or you or someone close to you gets it). Water boarding can be used just like other forms of torture, and we gain nothing except confusion and unreadability by trying to replace the term by some sort of circumscription. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Perfectly put Stephan. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Why can't it read Waterboarding is a practice used for torture, interrogation or punishment It's clear from sources that it has been used for all three but this wording does not imply that it is always definitively torture and doesn't resort to 'euphemising' the fact that it is. --neonwhite user page talk 00:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This parsing is illogical and unnecessary because torture (constituting forced suffociation by means of water, inflicted on a bound prisoner) may be used for all these things. Badagnani (talk) 00:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, it may be used for all or any, that's why it makes sense. --neonwhite user page talk 00:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The big problem is that to exclude torture from being used as a word with prominence in the lead is politicization, based on new attempted modern interpretations by one small group of individuals. It would be a violation of NPOV to exclude it, so the word as a firm descriptive of what the sources consider waterboarding to be, needs to be present somehow. I wasn't so adamant on this, for what its worth, before we uncovered this mountain of sources during working through these issues. Lawrence Cohen 00:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The historical usage alone suggests in should. --neonwhite user page talk 00:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The main objection to "is a form of torture" or similar has been that this is subject to interpretation (ie. "who says that"). Could we say the same thing but actually make it totally citable from a reliable source? Like "waterboarding has consistently been found to be torture under both U.S. and international law.[12]". That way, we are stating who states the "fact" (courts of law), and it uses the most reliable source we have (a journal published paper from a former JAG/current Judge who has written extensively about post-WWII prosecutions). Indeed, it might even make the bare statement a little stronger. Nobody can object, either, since there are no reliable sources stating that U.S. or international courts have found waterboarding to not be torture. I am not arguing that we shouldn't say it's torture here, just positing that it may be possible to phrase the statement in a way that avoids these "POV" accusations. That way we can also eliminate the whole idea of including some persons "opinion", or even any mention of the US controversy, from the lead, and only include absolutely verifiable statements. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I think your phrasing ("...used for torture, interrogation, or punishment") is fine. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 00:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like this wording, but would live with it if it brought resolution to this issue. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I would oppose this phrasing, as torture is used for those other purposes--and because waterboarding can be used for other purposes (as mentioned above by User:Stephan Schulz). Badagnani (talk) 00:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I still object to Wikipedia calling anything torture. I agree that it's torture, most people on this talk page agree it's torture, most independent analysts agree it's torture, but it is a subjective judgment that Wikipedia shouldn't be making a pronouncement on. It is quite sufficient to describe the practice, mention outside opinions (including the many that do call it torture), and let the reader make his own judgment. Superm401 - Talk 02:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That doesnt make sense, if it's from verified sources then it isn't a subjective judgement by any editors, maybe by the sources but that's how wikipedia works. Wikipedia makes 'judgements' on alot of things based on what the majority of sources. --neonwhite user page talk 02:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It does make sense. It is wikipedia's standard for neutrality. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't. It cannot possibly be making 'a subjective judgement' in any way if it's based on multiple verifiable sources and on a consensus. I think you are in serious misunderstanding of wikipedia policy on neutrality. A neutral point of view is still a point of view but one that reflects the point of view, a consensus judgement if you like, of the sources.--neonwhite user page talk 06:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, and this is a very important point: it's not true that Wikipedia merely reports on facts as supported by sources; it also makes a general judgment - a synthesis of sorts (to return to my favorite example: Moon landing is described as having actually happened; note that this does not break WP:NPOV - nor WP:SYN, as the notion that the event is real is hardly original). Wikipedia not only weighs the sources, it weighs the quality of their respective arguments. This is why it doesn't say that God exists, even if this view has a 10-1 or 20-1 majority. And here lies a fundamental difference: saying that God exists is a fairly arbitrary claim, while saying that waterboarding is torture isn't. GregorB (talk) 17:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment regarding Jeho's new lead. I applaud the effort at neutrality, but I am not sure it is accurate. More than ever, I think the article needs to be written first and then the lead. Sorry. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Nugget: Can everybody agree that "Waterboarding is forced suffocation, by means of water, inflicted on a bound prisoner"? We could also try "Waterboarding is simulated drowning inflicted on a bound prisoner". Either version could be followed with the detailed explanation we currently have from "that consists of..." onward. Blue Tie, I am starting at the beginning in hopes that we can use the first few paragraphs as an outline for the article, but I recognize that the bottom up approach you recommend could also work. Unfortunately, with the article protected, it is hard to do the bottom up approach. I agree with Henrik's idea above that the second paragraph of the lead could provide historical perspectives, and then the third paragraph could cover the modern controversy. Upon reflection I see that the modern controversy is what makes this topic so notable. That may as well be introduced near the top of the article. Once we agree on the lead, I think expanding each point into section(s) will be less contentious. Jehochman ^Talk 03:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

While being bound is traditional, there's no need for it, it's just efficient in the use of manpower (thugpower?); bound prisoners don't require others to hold them. Suffocation is too broad (someone is going to get into trouble some day with plastic bag suffocation torture, I'm sure), and (except in the rumored CIA/KGB method) the drowning isn't really simulated, it's real drowning, "just" not fatal. How about "Waterboarding is interrupted ?non-fatal? drowning, ?intentionally? inflicted on an ?unwilling? victim." (where the ?words? are not meant to be weaselly but elaborative)? htom (talk) 05:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, we cannot use simulated, maybe deliberate? --neonwhite user page talk 06:27, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the specificity of "bound": "restrained" or "immobilized" would work fine. —Ka-Ping Yee (talk) 06:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Opppose. The current form of the lead is fine. The definition of waterboarding as a form of torture is supported by a huge number of sources; while there is some political controversy over this definition, very few expert sources deny that waterboarding is torture. By "expert sources" I mean sources such as law review articles, reports by human rights organizations, by international organizations such as the United Nations, peer-reviewed work by historians, and so on. When we consult reliable sources and find waterboarding described as torture (e.g. "In State Department reports on other countries, sleep deprivation, waterboarding, forced standing, hypothermia, blindfolding, and deprivation of food and water are specifically referred to as torture." "Some forms of torture, such as waterboarding, last only for seconds."--Jamie Mayerfeld, "Playing by Our Own Rules: How U.S. Marginalization of International Human Rights Law Led to Torture" Harvard Human Rights Journal 20 (2007) 89-140), there's no reason to shy away from calling a spade a spade. --Akhilleus (talk) 07:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not useful to open an encyclopedic entry on spades by saying "a spade is a spade", just as it is not useful to say "a strawberry is delicious" or "a tomato is a berry." All of which are both true and probably RSable. Saying that "waterboarding is torture" commits the same flaw. htom (talk) 14:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Wether a strawbery is delicious is a matter of opinion. "A spade is a spade" is redundant. But compare:

• "The tomato (Solanum lycopersicum) is a plant..." (Not "The tomato is a photosynthesizing multi-cellular life form with a cellulose-based stem...")
• "The strawberry (Fragaria) (plural strawberries) is a genus of plants in the family Rosaceae and the fruit of these plants."
• "A spade is a tool designed primarily for the purpose of digging or removing earth."

We always aim at using a straightforward definition upfront, and should do the same here. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You know, "calling a spade a spade" has a well-understood idiomatic meaning: it means that we should write plainly and simply, rather than employing elaborate periphrases. Stephan explains it quite well. For the doggedly literal-minded among us, perhaps I should have said "there's no reason to shy away from calling a spade a tool, or a bell pepper a fruit." --Akhilleus (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support Shibumi2 (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV proposal #43

The previous round of comments revealed many helpful suggestions. In response, I propose:

Waterboarding is the practice of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the sensations of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Waterboarding carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.

This would be followed by historical perspectives on waterboarding, and then a summary of the current controversy in the United States which is making headlines around the word.

See: Zabarenko, Deborah. "Waterboarding would be torture to me: U.S. spy chief". reuters.com. Retrieved 2008-01-14. {{cite web}}: Text "Reuters" ignored (help)

Comments? Jehochman ^Talk 08:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - The current form of the lead is fine and, again, the conspicuous avoidance of "is a form of torture" when the sources state that it is, is again an effort to accommodate a fringe effort at redefinition of this well understood term (a form of suffocation using water against a bound prisoner). Badagnani (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• I am not trying to accommodate a fringe. I am trying to improve neutrality. Please do not ascribe motives to other editors. What here is factually inaccurate? The description is precise and subsumes the definition of torture ("To intentionally force someone to experience agony."). Rather than give the conclusion, I think we do better by providing the rationale. The word torture is going to show up in the next two paragraphs anyways. Jehochman ^Talk 08:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I ask again that you please read the discussion archives straight through before commenting or proposing further changes to the lead (which is factual, well written, and NPOV at present). Whether you believe you are doing this or not, your proposal (conspicuously removing "torture" from the lead sentence, where it clearly belongs, according to the sources) privileges the politically motivated hammering that has occurred over the past months, where no such privileging is warranted. Badagnani (talk) 08:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Why does "torture" clearly belong? The definition I proposed subsumes the entire definition of torture, and more. Why repeat ourselves with extra words? At Holocaust the first paragraph does not include the words "murder" or "genocide", even though those would clearly be accurate. Jehochman ^Talk 09:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

In Armenian Genocide it's in the title because, like with holocaust the majority consider it a genocide and only a fringe disagree the same as this article. What the article contains is not really relevant as it could easily be described as a genocide without being non-neutral. --neonwhite user page talk 18:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not a good analogy, as that article clearly deals with the murder of people, and 99.9% of people coming to that article will already know this. Even if the proposed lead does subsume the definition of torture, it is not immediately obvious to the uninformed reader that it does so. At the very least, it should mention that the vast majority of reliable sources consider the practice to be torture. BLACKKITE 09:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the definition of wikt:torture, the proposal I have made unquestionably qualifies as torture. Explaining is better than labeling. "Torture" is a label that may not have clear meaning. "Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the sensations of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent" leaves no room for doubt that this treatment, done in anger, would constitute torture. Jehochman ^Talk 14:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, I ask that you read the discussion archives straight through before commenting or proposing here. It really is important. Regarding "why do we have to call it torture" in the first sentence, we would not begin the Saxophone article by stating that the saxophone is "a curved tube of brass with keys and a reed"; we would say, "The saxophone is a musical instrument..." Badagnani (talk) 18:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Can't we say "waterboarding has consistently been found to be torture under both U.S. and international law.[13]". That way, we are stating who states the "fact" (courts of law), and it uses the most reliable source we have (a journal published paper from a former JAG/current Judge who has written extensively about post-WWII prosecutions). There can be few objections, since there are no reliable sources stating that U.S. or international courts have found waterboarding to not be torture. This way we can eliminate the whole idea of including some persons "opinion", or even any mention of the US controversy, from the lead, and only include absolutely verifiable statements regarding historic use, and not the current controversy. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 10:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, I do not think that banning the t word from the lead will solve the actual problem. The edit-warring and disagreement will just be shifted a couple of paragraphs down. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 10:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Your proposed wording certainly could appear in the second or third paragraphs about the history of waterboarding and the current controversy. Having "torture" in the definition (first paragraph) creates the appearance that we have a political bent. If there were no political dispute, why would we need to say something so obvious? It's like saying "Water is a wet substance composed of hydrogen and oxygen" when the natural statement would be "Water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen." We should certainly mention "torture" within the historical context, because waterboarding was primarily used for torture. We should also mention "torture" in the third paragraph about the current controversy, because that's what the controversy is about. Jehochman ^Talk 14:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, it creates the impression that editors have analysed the sources available and made conclusion based on them. Again it seems like i need to point out that a neutral point of view is not 'no point of view'. You are simply giving far too much importance and weight to the recent controversy. --neonwhite user page talk 18:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

What you seem to fail to realize, User:Jehochman (probably from not having read the discussion archives straight through), is that the intent to sanitize the lead by excising the very term that is the definition of what this practice is what is politically motivated. In an effort to "get this dispute over with, already," you are exactly following the dictates of this tiny but extremely vocal minority (including several SPAs and socks) in their politically motivated hammering (whose sole focus seems to have been removing this word from the lead). It's very, very important that you carefully read the discussion archives straight through--it will take time, but is really extremely important that you do so. Badagnani (talk) 18:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, creating an ambiguous lead does not reflect the weight of opinion on the subject, it creates the impression of a wide dispute when, in fact, there isn't one. It shouldn't read more like a political speech than an encyclopedic entry. --neonwhite user page talk 18:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Jehochman, I would change "breathing passages" into "nose, mouth, and throat", because I think of breathing passages as being the trachea, bronchi, and bronchioles. Other than that, I kinda like it. htom (talk) 18:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Agree with Badagnani. The "controversy" here is similar to global warming, where there is a robust consensus among experts, but dispute among politicians, pundits, and the public at large. But our encyclopedia entries are supposed to be based on expert opinion. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. Speaking as a Finnishman, The status of waterboarding as torture is indisputed where it hasn't been made into a political issue. If a fair portion of discussion seems to say that it isn't -- well, I suggest a broader check of international media. --Kizor 10:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support Please bring sources from international media. Shibumi2 (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• There is a number of international ones in the lists above. Here are some more from Germany: [14],[15], [16], [17], [18] --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Those appear to be nothing more than news reports, repeating what's been going on in the American press. Oh, there's a blog too. I don't see any expert opinions, or any official position statements by governments. Neutral Good (talk) 01:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• You might want to actually read them. Of course they discuss the US events, but they all call waterboarding torture. Heise Telepolis is one of the major online news services. Die Zeit is the most respected German weekly newspaper, Der Tagesspiegel is the leading Berlin daily newspaper, and Der Spiegel is the leading weekly newsjournal. The "blog" is an official comment by the head of the most respected and widely viewed German TV newsbroadcast (written in his official capacity) and discussing if the short except of a waterboarding video in this news broadcast has been too shocking and brutal for the 8 pm main news broadcast (and viewer reactions to it). Your moving of the goalposts is noted.--Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Neutral Good (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strong support 70.9.13.143 (talk) 12:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting new source

The opinion of Gary Solis Adjunct professor, Georgetown University Law Center and former Marine Corps judge advocate and military judge. [19] ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This is written like an opinion piece. The author repeatedly asks rhetorical questions. However, the article is interesting because it identifies a number of historical incidents that we can research to find additional sources. Jehochman ^Talk 14:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It is an opinion piece but in a notable online journal and he is someone qualified to have an opinion on the subject. This should not be used as a source on its own because of its strong POV but with others, also i've not run into many pinko-commie Marine Corps judge advocates. Thats important as it shows how fringe the "not-torture" view is. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 15:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

To quote from the article: "It remains amazing that, in 2007, any intelligent person can have any question that waterboarding constitutes torture, morally and ethically wrong, and contrary to U.S. law, U.S.-ratified multi-national treaties, and international criminal law." I couldn't agree more. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly the new NDI recently stated quite clearly he regarded waterboarding as torture. Wolf Blitzer showed Mitt Romney the clip, and asked him for a response yesterday on CNN. Geo Swan (talk) 16:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link. And there is video too. Geo Swan (talk) 16:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Deborah Zabarenko (Sunday January 13 2008). "Waterboarding would be torture to me: U.S. spy chief". Reuters. Retrieved 2008-01-14. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

This is good stuff. Check the articles for extra footnotes that can lead back to other sources, as well. I found a fountain of sources doing that on another article, Bezhin Meadow, recently. Lawrence Cohen 22:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

He starts with a probably bad assumption: "By now, most of us know what the interrogation technique of waterboarding is." Then he demonstrates that maybe that is not true. Because he uses analogies of experiences that are by him but not by contemporaries, described as waterboarding and at least some of them do not appear to match to waterboarding. In short, his evidences are not so good and since his logic is based upon them, his logic fails. I am surprised that someone who is supposedly a jurist would express his opinion so poorly.--Blue Tie (talk) 01:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no "Nice CIA method" so can we stop claiming some minor variation in style of waterboarding makes it OK. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Shower-bath" torture of black inmates in NY state prison in 1858

Source links to a 1858 digital archived press report of a black man being tortured to death.[20] The original source is "Harper's Weekly". Also see the NY Times 1852[21] and an article on Auburn prison which mentions the "shower-bath" torture in the context of waterboarding.[22][23] A History of Torture (Scott 1940), p.243, calls this "an amplification" of strapping someone down and pouring water over the face with a watering-can. (It also talks about the use of the "wet cloth" water torture in conjunction with the rack: for some reason I can't access the appropriate page on gbooks at the moment, but it sounds like a combination of waterboarding and the rack). A description from the Warden's report describes its use "produced a suffocation; this is continued for some time, the operator either increasing or slackening the torrent at his pleasure."[24] I am wondering if this information should be added to this article. I am also wondering if the indictment of Hissene Habre by Belgian authorities for water tortures[25] is appropriate in this article; it looks to me like dunking, but there are some references out there that call it waterboarding. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I never learned about such in American History class, either in high school or college. I thought the U.S. Constitution outlawed this? In any case, there are elements different from the general definition of "conventional" waterboarding here, most prominently the seated position and bowl under the chin. Badagnani (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

This does not seem to me to be waterboarding to me, Torture and the United States is probably the place to send it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Constitution does outlaw it. That's why the current executive branch is using Newspeak words for torture.Reinoe (talk) 22:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

In theory the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes torture for the purpose of confession pointless, and the United States Bill of Rights prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. In practice, up until around 1910 it was standard police practice to beat and torture confessions out of people. Around that time some courts began to deny forced confessions, and the "liberal media" of the time highlighted a lot of the obvious injustices, which led to a fall in beatings, burning tortures, etc. and the rise of water tortures and others that leave no physical marks. Around 1930 there was a lot of public discontent regarding crime, and the Wickersham Commission wrote its "Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement" which basically said that one of the major causes of crime was the fact that innocent people were tortured to confess and went to jail, while the guilty walked free. It was easier to torture a random person into confessing than to do proper detective work. After that more serious efforts were made to eliminate such practices. So, the theory was sound, but it took a while to get put into practice. [26] from 1852 is an interesting read - they make the point that around 1750 the English had sentenced one senior prison warden to death for torturing prisoners, and the U.S. was supposed to better than that because of the Constitution, and yet 100 years later U.S. prison guards were still committing acts of torture. Chris Bainbridge (talk) 23:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that we are dealing with a serious conflation of waterboarding and other things in the press. Its a problem. --Blue Tie (talk) 01:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Can we all agree not to use this source, as a concensus building exercise? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Waterboarding, a word-of-the-year nomination for 2006

By the American Dialect Society

waterboarding: an interrogation technique in which the subject is immobilized and doused with water to simulate drowning; reported to be used by U.S. interrogators against terrorism detainees.

htom (talk) 20:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Clapping. Now, how reliable is that source? Jehochman ^Talk 20:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how WP establishes a source as "reliable"; the heading (which might be faked) says

     2006 Word of the Year Nominations
  American Dialect Society, Jan. 5, 2007
           Benjamin Zimmer
     Editor, American Dictionaries
       Oxford University Press

I found it via the self-published page at their home page; they claim to have been around since 1889:

Founded in 1889, the American Dialect Society is dedicated to the study of the English language in North America, and of other languages, or dialects of other languages, influencing it or influenced by it. Our members include academics and amateurs, professionals and dilettantes, teachers and writers.

Now that's long before the establishment of the internet, presumably there's some WPian who has access to the Duke library?

And am I the only one who sometimes seems to be losing signatures? (I like the signbot, but.) htom (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Heres their wikipedia stub American Dialect Society but its been a stub for atleast 3 years. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Words of the year going back to 1990, and duke university press will sell you back issues of PADS going back to 1944 so that says these people are notable and an RS. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 00:35, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

But we don't know anything about how these definitions are created. Are they submitted by amateurs and dilettantes? Are they subject to any editorial control? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Lots of info available on their website including;

American Speech Editorial Board Editor: Michael Adams, Indiana University at Bloomington Senior Associate Editor: Michael B. Montgomery, University of South Carolina Associate Editor for Book Reviews: Allison Burkette, University of Mississippi Managing Editor: Charles E. Carson, Duke University Press

As i say, sure looks like an RS to me but have a look around its website or take it to the RS noticeboard. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 04:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the board for the journal; did the board exert any control over the definitions? --Akhilleus (talk) 04:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears to have been nominated by Grant Barrett

Submitted by Grant Barrett, co-host of the language-related public radio show, A Way With Words, http://www.waywordradio.org. Grant is also editor of the online Double-Tongued Dictionary, http://www.doubletongued.org/, and a vice president of the American Dialect Society, http://www.americandialect.org

in this pdf :

waterboarding An interrogation technique that simulates drowning. Though much-discussed as part of the nomination hearings of Attorney General Michael Mukasey, first widespread reports of the technique's existence were made in 2004.

With the results in the category "Most Euphemistic"

Most Euphemistic

WINNER waterboarding: an interrogation technique in which the subject is immobilized
and doused with water to simulate drowning; reported to be used by U.S.
interrogators against terrorism detainees.
RUN-OFF: surge 31, waterboarding 65
lancing: the forced public outing of a closeted gay celebrity, after ‘N Sync singer Lance
Bass. 23
lyric malfunction: obscenities scrubbed from the Rolling Stones’ Super Bowl performance.
1
waterboarding 46
surge: an increase in troop strength. 26

(btw, "plutoed" was the 2006 overall winner) htom (talk) 05:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The ADS is obviously an RS by wikipedia standards, if we use a very short definition of waterboarding used in a press release as a source in this article is another thing. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 05:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

For fun, informed but not official: Announcement for 2006 htom (talk) 05:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Then it should not be used. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 05:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I was unaware that informed fun precluded reliability. htom (talk) 05:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

We are not writing a "fun" encyclopedia, what do want this source to say in the article and how much weight are you intending to try to give it. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 05:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

This may not be a "fun" encyclopedia, but I am (usually) having fun contributing. That's how I took the description, which I'll quote:

Word of the Year is interpreted in its broader sense as “vocabulary item”—not just words but phrases. The words or phrases do not have to be brand new, but they have to be newly prominent or notable in the past year, in the manner of Time magazine’s Person of the Year. In addition to an overall Word of the Year, words will be chosen in a number of categories. The categories are determined each year, but they generally include Most Useful, Most Creative, Most Unnecessary, Most Outrageous, Most Euphemistic, Most Likely to Succeed, and Least Likely to Succeed.

The vote is fully informed by the members’ expertise in the study of words, but it is far from a solemn occasion. Members in the 117-year-old organization include linguists, lexicographers, etymologists, grammarians, historians, researchers, writers, authors, editors, professors, university students, and independent scholars. In conducting the vote, they act in fun and not in any official capacity of inducting words into the English language.

How much weight to give to their definition of "waterboarding" I leave to the concensous. htom (talk) 19:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• REAL WATERBOARDING Waterboarding is an extreme sport popular among surfers on Middle Eastern beaches. Only recommended for experienced wandsurfers, this sport requires a long, narrow, wedge-shaped board. Practitioners secure themselves to the waterboard and ride, face-down, on the slightest currents. The tide off the Gaza strip is perfect for this sport in summer. Waterboarding was invented in 2004 by American troops protecting the Gaza strip. Being in service there, the Americans had no surf-boards or boxer shorts. So they did what any bored serviceman would do: they took all their clothes off and made do with the crude planks from pirate ships in that area. Hence, the American military is the father of the sport we know today as waterboarding. Inertia Tensor (talk) 12:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Obviously a reference to the earlier use of the towed-watersport form of waterboarding, and not useful here. htom (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Waterboarding at the DoubleTongue dictionary site:

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/water_boarding_11/ ;

this citation confounds watercure and waterboarding (flood) and waterboarding (immersion.)

There’s what I call the WaterHood, also known as “water boarding’ or the “watercure,” where interrogators shove a prisoner’s head in abarrel of water and make him think he’s drowning. Actually, heis drowning; they just save him from death at the lastsecond (if all goes well).

http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/citations/water_boarding_1/ ; waterboarding(immersion?)

In the case of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, a high-level detainee who is believed to have helped plan the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, C.I.A. interrogators used graduated levels of force, including a technique known as “water boarding,” in which a prisoner is strapped down, forcibly pushed under water and made to believe he might drown.

htom (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

From the website "This catchword has yet to be researched." so again i don't think its an RS. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 04:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent news

FYI: United States National Intelligence Director Michael McConnell's views to the US Congress — BQZip01 — ^talk 05:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind that one rule of politics is Cover your ass. Politicians are not reliable sources for anything except their own opinions. Jehochman ^Talk 09:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Especially when facing a lifetime retirement in the hague as murderous war criminals. Wee bit of self interest, CWA in this. UNDUE WEIGHT Inertia Tensor (talk) 12:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

No one is a reliable source for anything but their own opinions, this includes the people who write the stuff that we call "reliable sources". In this case, testimony before Congress by a legal official of the executive branch is a good reliable source -- for whatever it was he said, and probably as more than his personal opinion. These speculations about war crimes are inappropriate discussion for this page and unhelpful in editing.--Blue Tie (talk) 01:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, he's an involved party in a massive news story, growing bigger even as we discuss this dispute (hint: we should unprotect the article so we can update it). He's much more involved than any reporter. There is a material difference. Jehochman ^Talk 01:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not commenting about the protection of the article issue but I do not think he is a bad source. That he is involved might make him a great source... better than many who are not involved. But I am far more concerned about the issue of "What is Waterboarding?". I do not think it is everything that is being called waterboarding but our article has a problem. But on this matter, I think he is a far more reliable source than news reporters who conflate waterboarding with water cure.--Blue Tie (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting story i have some points. 1)"Michael McConnell, told students at St. Mary's College in Maryland." we don't know what was said to congress as that session was behind closed doors. 2)This source is good enough to say " Michael McConnell says about waterboarding "It has saved lives. And so from my point of view, we've accomplished the mission within the bounds of U.S. law"" But is nowhere near good enough to say much more on the subject of the legality of waterboarding. 3)The warcrimes charges that 30+ americans currently face in europe and the posibility of more (going all the way to POTUS) is what hangs over this whole article and others like it on wikipedia, and most people charged with a crime say "it wasn't me" so it does stretch the credability and reliabilty of Michael McConnell as a source. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 04:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Also this is about the legality of waterboarding not that it is not torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you provide a link or a cite for the warcrimes charges? Where were they filed and what court is hearing them?--Blue Tie (talk) 13:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are multiple problems with this. First it has nothing to do with waterboarding, Second, the charges were dismissed in Federal German Court and so, they do not exist any more. (Anyone can file charges in court you know, but making them go forward is the trick). Are these 22 arrest warrants cited in some way and are they related to waterboarding? If not, then why are we discussing this unrelated matter? Why is it brought up?--Blue Tie (talk) 08:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

another story

This story [27] from the BBC talks about a canadian training manual that names the USA as a torturer. This is not enough yet to use as a source but could be later if we know more and if this becomes a big issue. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Canada removes U.S., Israel from torture watchlist

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada's foreign ministry, responding to pressure from close allies, said on Saturday it would remove the United States and Israel from a watch list of countries where prisoners risk being tortured.

Both nations expressed unhappiness after it emerged they had been listed in a document that formed part of a training course manual on torture awareness given to Canadian diplomats.

Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier said he regretted the embarrassment caused by the public disclosure of the manual, which also classified some U.S. interrogation techniques as torture.

"It contains a list that wrongly includes some of our closest allies. I have directed that the manual be reviewed and rewritten," Bernier said in a statement.

"The manual is neither a policy document nor a statement of policy. As such, it does not convey the government's views or positions."

The document -- made available to Reuters and other media outlets -- embarrassed the minority Conservative government, which is a staunch ally of both the United States and Israel.

U.S. ambassador David Wilkins said the listing was absurd, while the Israeli envoy said he wanted his country removed.

Asked why the two countries had been put on the list, a spokesman for Bernier said: "The training manual purposely raised public issues to stimulate discussion and debate in the classroom."

The government mistakenly gave the document to Amnesty International as part of a court case the rights organization has launched against Ottawa over the treatment of detainees in Afghanistan.

....

—Preceding unsigned comment added by OtterSmith (talk • contribs) 00:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

important report

This [28] report Leave No Marks: Enhanced Interrogation Techniques and the Risk of Criminality by Physicians for Human Rights and Human Rights First has a section on waterboarding and the long term effects of torture as well as the legal aspects of torture. Discuss! ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like an excellent source to me. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not a peer reviewed scientific source. Nor is it a particularly good legal source. But it does look like a good source for the opinion of an advocacy group. I do not think that, in the writing of this article or the problems we are facing, the opinions of an advocacy group are important to the article. --Blue Tie (talk) 13:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Blue tie look at their sources for the medical effect of waterboarding and you will see its high quality peer reviewed medical sources;

Dorte Reff Olsen et al., Prevalent pain and pain level among torture survivors, 53 Danish Med Bull. 210-14 (2006), For details on the study,see note 92.

147 C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Association of panic disorder with a historyof traumatic suffocation, 154 Am. J. Psychiatry 1566 (1997), Recent research suggests that panic disorder results from a false suffocation alarm. Bouwer and Stein found that there was a significantly higher incidence of traumatic suffocation experiences (e.g., near-drowning and near-choking) in panic disorder patients (N = 176) than in psychiatric controls (N = 60), and that panic disorder patients with a history of traumatic suffocation were significantly more likely to have predominantly respiratory symptoms than those without such a history. In the majority of patients who had experienced traumatic suffocation this had been during accidental near drowning (N = 25). However, a smaller number of patients had experienced traumatic suffocation during deliberate torture (N = 8) or during rape (N = 1). In a case reported by the authors a 31 year old man with panic attacks characterized by predominantly respiratory symptoms reported that he had been tortured at the age of 18. A wet bag had been placed over his head repeatedly, leading to choking feelings, hyperventilation, and panic. At about age 20 the patient began to experience spontaneous panic attacks.

148 C. Bouwer & D. J. Stein, Panic disorder following torture by suffocationis associated with predominantly respiratory symptoms, 29 Psychological Med. 233 (1999), The authors examined whether a near-suffocation experienced in certain kinds of torture is associated with the development of predominantly respiratory panic attacks. A sample of 14 South African patients who had experienced torture, were questioned about symptoms of panic disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder and depression. Patients with a history of torture by suffocation (N=8) were more likely than other patients to complain of predominantly respiratory symptoms during panic attacks (N=6). These patients also demonstrated higher levels of depressive symptoms. The authors noted that torture by suffocation is possibly associated with a specific symptomatic profile.

149 H. P. Kapfhammer et al., Posttraumatic stress disorder and healthrelated quality of life in long-term survivors of acute respiratory distress.

See what i mean. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 14:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Blue tie have you got any medical sources that challenge what the Physicians for human rights doctors say? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 07:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point. Of course part of that is my fault. I misspoke by saying it was not important to the article. I meant, given our problems right now it was not important to the article right now. I could see a place for the opinions of an advocacy group at some point. But that is not the biggest issue right now.

However, as a source of scientific information it is not a reliable source. Go ahead. Read the guideline on Reliable Sources and see. It is however, an excellent source on the opinions of an advocacy group. And this is true if I do or do not have other medical or scientific opinions. --Blue Tie (talk) 08:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It is important to note that any organisation that is trying to insist on the rule of law, and mentioning human rights abuse, by definition gets labelled as advocacy group. By the same token we should describe those denouncing the rule of law as tyrannical groups. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not important to the article to mention this. Perhaps it is important to you in a personal way but that does not mean it is appropriate to the article. --Blue Tie (talk) 08:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

OK i've started a discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Physicians_for_Human_Rights_report about the usability of this source. Please comment there. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 09:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Added to my list of good sources as per discusion. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 08:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope that when you add it as a good source you include the sense that it is only a good source for the opinion of an advocacy group. It was not determined to be a good scientific source for waterboarding. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

More than good enough to quote those medical journals, again if you had sources that counter these, your arguments might have a bit more weight. The thing is those sources do not exists, as you well know. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 02:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Lexis-Nexis search

The question of whether waterboarding is torture is in part a legal one, and on legal topics one of the first things that should be done is a Lexis-Nexis search, so that we see what law review articles (as well as case law) say about the topic. I searched US/Canadian law reviews for "waterboarding or water-boarding" and got 95 results. A good number of articles unequivocally say that waterboarding is torture, and I've placed quotes from those articles above. Only one article questioned whether waterboarding is torture--but this article doesn't say that waterboarding isn't torture, it says that he's not sure whether waterboarding is torture or not. I placed a quote from this letter above also.

I found no articles that said that waterboarding isn't torture. Most of the articles from the search don't yield a directly quotable section that says "waterboarding is torture", but rather focus on the question of whether waterboarding and the other CIA "extreme" interrogation techniques violates US law and UNCAT. Saying that the techniques are illegal isn't quite the same thing as saying they're torture, but it's pretty darn close. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That is amazing research. So all these 21 legal authorities are saying that waterboarding is torture. Lawrence Cohen 20:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but they don't. The first, for example, says "Waterboarding entails many different methods of torture." It does not say, "All waterboarding methods are torture." This is a subtle but important distinction. The fourth describes it as a "coercive interrogation technique," not as torture. The fifth describes it, not as torture, but "exactly what Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention prohibits"; reading Article 17 reveals that it prohibits many other things besides torture. The sixth doesn't call it torture; instead it says, "There is little doubt that this technique represents torture." Another subtle but important distinction. The eighth is Evan Wallach, who has already been counted elsewhere. The author of the tenth, Jamie Meyerfield, signed the open letter to Attorney General Gonzales and therefore has already been counted elsewhere.

There's much about the presentation of sources from the "waterboarding is torture" advocates that is disingenuous at best: glossing over subtle but important distinctions in some sources, counting other sources that have already been counted elsewhere, and counting one astroturfed source as 115. I stopped checking these 21 alleged new "waterboarding is torture" sources after the tenth. A very casual, ten-minute Google search of the first ten "new sources" on the list reveals six that are not "new sources" for the "waterboarding is torture" advocates. They're either "old sources" or they shouldn't be counted as "waterboarding is torture" sources at all. Devoting the same amount of time and professional Lexis/Nexis resources that Akhilleus has devoted would no doubt disqualify even more; some of them probably work for Human Rights Watch or the Jewish human rights group, which have already been counted. Neutral Good (talk) 22:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

That is truly an amazing amount of nitpicking. To disagree in your own terms, the distinctions may have been subtle but seem rather unimportant, and certainly not sufficient to disqualify them. Snowfire51 (talk) 22:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

John Yoo, and other sources presented by the "Waterboarding may not be torture" advocates, have been subjected to the same level of nitpicking scrutiny, exquisitely careful dissection and disqualification by the "Waterboarding is torture" advocates. This is only fair. Neutral Good (talk) 22:21, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral Good's response is hardly surprising, but it's mistaken on several points. NG seems to think that "sources" means people, and thus claims that some of these sources have been counted already. That's wrong: for the purposes of Wikipedia, "sources" means publications--each article is a source. This is the case even if a person writes two or more articles (as authors usually do)--each article is a separate source. Claiming that the Meyerfield article is not a new source because he signed the open letter to Gonzales is simply wrong--his article is a source, the open letter is a source. If Meyerfield writes a piece for the Washington Post, that will be another source.

The value of the sources I've provided here is that they appear in peer-reviewed publications; exactly the kind of expert literature that Wikipedia is supposed to be based on. A clear message to draw from the sources I've found is that the academic legal community overwhelmingly feels that the "extreme" CIA techniques are illegal and the legal reasoning used to allow their use is severely flawed. Considering that these articles appear in law reviews, an argument that the administration has acted illegally is probably more damning than a statement that waterboarding is torture.

Not that we lack such statements. In NG's response, he notes that the fifth source (Bassiouni) says that waterboarding is "exactly what Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention prohibits," and contends that Bassiouni isn't saying that waterboarding is torture, because the Geneva Convention prevents more things than torture. True, but not particularly relevant, because Bassaouni continues: "The Administration's legal advisors preposterously claimed that the infliction of severe pain and suffering, as defined in Article 1 of the CAT, '[M]ust be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death" in order to constitute torture.'" Bassiouni is clearly saying that the administration's reasoning is ridiculous, and that waterboarding (and the other techniques listed) are torture. This should be plain to any editor who is willing to read the whole quote, without a predisposition towards tendentious nitpicking. And really, that's the most apt description of NG's comment above--tendentious nitpicking. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I see no problem with any of these sources as being statements of opinion. However they are not legal rulings. They cannot be construed as law. They can only be construed as opinions about the law -- by people not in power to actually do anything about it except vote. Things do not enter the area of law until there is a ruling from a court (and it must stand above appeal) or when things have been legislated upon. There is a quasi area of law known as regulation as well and currently only regulations and the UCMJ have reviewed waterboarding as far as I can tell. In this regard, waterboarding (specifically) is illegal for US Military personnel, but is (specifically) not illegal for non-military personnel. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

For the final time, stop bringing up this legal angle--it's a non-argument because Wikipedia does not care about the legal status. We aren't a legal guide and never will be. Opinions are fine to establish facts. If you don't like it: fork to another pedia. This constant fake argument is now disruptive. Stop. Lawrence Cohen 05:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are wrong. The legal status is reportable. You should not be running around issuing instructions to other editors based upon your personal beliefs. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are editing to support a US POV. US legal status has zero relevance to anything in this article's definition of waterboarding as torture, period, full stop. The US is one source only. A single government will get no special treatment by us. The United States government is subservient to NPOV here. Lawrence Cohen 18:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrect and you are starting to be disruptive in your efforts to violate WP:AGF with other editors... something you have proposed as a policy in the ARBCOM page.--Blue Tie (talk) 18:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Go and start Legal issues in the USA around waterboarding if you want to, the current US administration's legal defence is not enough to say waterboarding is not torture. Please stop bringing it up. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Brain scans for signs of cerebral hypoxia?

I haven't yet found any obvious sign that anyone has done brain scans of waterboarding survivors - have they really not done so? Even sleep apnea supposedly can cause chronic cerebral hypoxia to the point of creating foci visible on a magnetic resonance imaging scan, though some signs of this type may be regarded as normal for people of a certain age. Furthermore the changes (visible reduction in size of certain areas of actual brain tissue after the damage is suffered) develop over a period of weeks to months[29], so I would expect that by doing a brain scan on a newly extracted waterboarding survivor and repeating it a few months later, it could be proved that the recent trauma was to blame. Wnt (talk) 20:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I doubt it has been done. There does not appear to be much in the way of scientific research uncovered by editors here. Mostly it is opinions.--Blue Tie (talk) 01:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't be silly we have loads of medical evidence and literally infinitely more evidence than the fringe view that its not torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not being silly. We do not have one single peer reviewed, medical or scientific source on the effects, specifically, of waterboarding. What this person has proposed is that such a study be referenced. It does not exist as far as I know. Please refrain from personal attacks.--Blue Tie (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

"It does not exist as far as I know" Exactly as the US government does not allow independant medical reviews of its "guests". Many ex-prisoners have been treated for the injuries they have recieved, including the psychological injuries, as none of these mention waterboarding (just other forms of torture and CID that are used). I would like the medical exams Wnt speaks of carried out but as it is very unlikely its not worth talking about. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 02:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Some thorough medical and psychiatric examinations of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaidah, searching specifically for signs that their waterboarding episodes might have physically or emotionally damaged them in any way. That would be helpful. Instead, we have opinions and speculation based on political predispositions. Left-wing law professors, Democrats in Congress, and Physicians for Human Rights claim that it's torture, and that's very predictable. Republicans claim that it isn't, or that it may not be torture in all cases, or that they aren't sure, and that's also predictable. Neutral Good (talk) 02:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

All this is only relevant (barely) to the United States subsection only. The stances in the US have no bearing on the rest of the article. The US is just one country, and not that important in the end here. Lawrence Cohen 06:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A peer reviewed medical source would be relevant to the whole article. Not just to a US Section.

Unfortunately there's nothing in PubMed yet, but it's worth keeping an eye out for new results or preliminary reports. Wnt (talk) 01:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Legal status of torture and Wikipedia policy

Please cite the exact policy that *supports* your repeated statement that sources are only allowable to say waterboarding is torture as some form of legal status. I am officially tasking anyone who asserts this to demonstrate where we can only use legal rulings: show me the Wikipedia policy that backs this claim up. If you cannot, you (all of you) need to stop disrupting this page immediately. Link to the specific passage of policy that supports this idea that we can only call it torture if a legal ruling calls it that. Now. This game has gone on long enough; consensus does not and never needs to be "unanimous" on any Wikipedia page or process. Link the policy.

And please stop referencing legal status in the United States. Simply put, no one cares, because the US is one country and no more important in anything on Wikipedia than any other country: the US is just a name and a body to us. The legal status or lack thereof there will not be used to gauge the overall statements of is/isn't torture on this page. Lawrence Cohen 05:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Lawrence, It is inappropriate to tell someone to stop referencing something saying "no one cares" when it is focused on the topic of the article. It is also inappropriate for you to declare unilaterally what will or will not be used as though you alone judge such things. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

What I am doing is calling on the editors here to quash disruptive tenditious editing. Consensus does not require unanimous support, and I think now that people took AGF to truly absurd lengths to induldge nationalist editors. Time to stop and do the right thing for the 'pedia, rather than the USA. Lawrence Cohen 18:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The legal status of waterboarding under the US Constitution, UNCAT, ECHR and GC's is important and should be noted on wikipedia, given that we have RS to do this. But you are right in that "no court case since 9/11 has called waterboarding torture" is not reason enough to say waterboarding is not torture. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 08:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything related to International Law should be noted as "International Law". And, in fact, there are no court cases, world-wide, as far as I can tell, that are related to waterboarding. Legality and torture are two different things. Something may be legal but still be torture. Something may also be illegal but not torture. The two are not necessarily the same thing. In the United States, however, there are five things that work together: 1) Representatives of the US Government have affirmed repeatedly under oath, that they do not torture. 2) Representatives of the US Government (sometimes the same as in item 1) have affirmed that the US authorizes waterboarding to be conducted and this is confirmed by published documents from the Government. 3). Representatives (again, sometimes the same as #1) have issued regulatory rulings (which have the force of law when statute and court decisions do not exist) that permit waterboarding. 4). Legal authorities, tasked with interpreting the law for the executive branch have ruled that waterboarding is legal. (this is not the same a court ruling) 5). Some individuals have reported, (in reliable ways) that waterboarding has been conducted under the aegis of US authority. These all indicate that in the US, waterboarding may be legal under certain circumstances. I would note, also that the US signs many international treaties with specific stipulations that these treaties are subordinate in the US to the US Constitution. This is deemed necessary because by default, the US Constitution actually suggests that treaties are equal to it and ratification in the Senate would not occur without that stipulation. As a result, US agreement with treaties that define international almost never includes submitting to authorities or interpretations outside of the US. That is not a topic for this article, but it may inform some of the editors here regarding legality. --Blue Tie (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Legal status in the US is irrelevant to the definition of waterboarding as torture. We are not a legal guide, and do not care about outside ramifications of this article to the US government. The United States government is subservient to NPOV here. Lawrence Cohen 18:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are in violation of one of your own proposed statements of policy on the arbitration page. --Blue Tie (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

And which would that be? Lawrence Cohen 18:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Blue tie go and start Legal issues in the USA around waterboarding if you want to, the current US administration's legal defence is not enough to say waterboarding is not torture. Please stop bringing it up. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 03:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Original research

Our gathering lists of references is helpful, because it can demonstrate the relative prominence that different views should receive in the article. The reference lists can be used as citations for specific statements. However, we are not in the business of weighing the references and pronouncing The Truth®. That would be Original research.

What this means is that we should say, "Legal scholars, international organizations, {drop in everybody else} state that waterboarding is torture. {Drop in list of citations} Begining in {drop in year} the US Government Bush Administration officials, such as {drop in list of names}, and political commentators such as {drop in names of notable people} have suggested that waterboarding may not be torture in all cases."

This would be the most precise and neutral way to state things. Rather than telling the reader what to think, we can give them all the information, and they can be as informed about this subject as we are.

I still prefer to start the article with a specific description of the waterboarding process and the effects on the subject. The second paragraph can cover its status as torture. The third paragraph should explain the huge political controversy caused by waterboarding. The term was obscure until this controversy created worldwide headlines. Jehochman ^Talk 18:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

We weigh the references and produce an article where the majority and minority are given proportional weight not equal weight. This is still not proportional to the amount of sources. --neonwhite user page talk 20:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. This is most unsuitable for an encyclopedic article. If you insist on this change for this article, you must also change the lead in the article regarding the age of the earth, the origin of species, etc. Suffocation of a bound prisoner is a form of torture, as the sources (except in the public statements of two Republican politicians and two conservative opinion columnists), and the article should describe it as such. Again, I respectfully request that you *read the talk page archives straight through* before commenting or proposing here further. The idea of a simple description in the lead has been proposed several times, and rejected, for reasons already stated. Again, as already stated, the politically motivated hammering of recent months does not seek to redefine waterboarding, but simply to shed doubt that it is torture. This idea of "giving in" to this politically motivated agenda is very, very misguided. Please read the discussion archives straight through, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. Waterboarding is torture, the use of torture here is a descriptive term - it explains what it is, and vital for an inclusive description of what waterboarding is. Inertia Tensor (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

m:VotingIsEvil. There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that waterboarding is torture. Why are we letting the fringe modify our behavior? We do we need to state the obvious? By showing who says waterboarding is torture, and who says it isn't, we can educate the savvy reader. Jehochman ^Talk 20:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strongly support. Let's move forward. Present the facts, don't take sides or make judgments, and let the facts speak for themselves. Neutral Good (talk) 01:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with what Jehochman has said. I believe it is entirely consistent with wikipedia practice and policy. --Blue Tie (talk) 02:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. 70.9.13.143 (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Point of order

All, please remember that this is supposed to be a discussion. As it is now, any ideas to move forward are shot down immediately. This obviously isn't working. If we could avoid bold "opposes" for a while too, that'd be great.

This has been proposed before, but how about we give the lead a rest? There has been a continuous argument for over two months about the lead now, going all the way to arbcom. Is there any chance we could declare a temporary cease fire, try working on the rest of the article, and come back refreshed and duke it out later on the lead?

I think that everyone who are truly interested in improving this article, as opposed to fighting over the lead, should try to improve a section. You can write a draft in a subpage, then post the proposal here for discussion and implementation. henrik•talk 21:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The first six words of the article are a glaring violation of WP:NPOV and Jehochman is trying to work constructively to cure that problem. Props to Jehochman. Henrik, working on other sections of the article would be like receiving a patient in the emergency ward who's pumping out his blood from multiple gunshot wounds, ignoring the gunshot wounds, and providing medical treatment for his psoriasis. Neutral Good (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

This has been pointed out time and time again NPOV means representing the majority point of view not fringe views. The lead is in complete compliance with the policy. Shouting the same tired argument that has been answered many times is just disrupting the discussion. --neonwhite user page talk 02:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Metaphor aside, it's actually suggested by wikipedia that when there's conflict on a page, good faith can be gained by working together to improve other parts of the article. Once everyone is working together, then maybe the hotbutton issue can be revisited with new cooperation and results. Snowfire51 (talk) 02:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* Hyperbole like that is exactly why we are at arbcom now instead of constructively editing. henrik•talk 08:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)