Talk:Avant-garde metal

Added Dol Ammad

I added Greek band Dol Ammad to the list of example bands. The fourteen-piece choir alone probably qualifies them for avant-garde as opposed to conventional prog metal. Irene Ringworm 01:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion question

What about Fantômas, The Melvins, and Faith No More? -leigh (φθόγγος) 09:25, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Those three bands fall along the lines of alternative metal or alternative rock, the 2nd probably being more "sludge metal". Whether one thinks they're "avant-garde" or not, it really comes down to the definition/history reflected in the avant garde metal article - strictly, Fantômas, The Melvins, and Faith No More are much, much closer to alternative metal than avant garde metal and do not belong as example bands.--Danteferno 18:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree on what you said about The Melvins and Faith No More but I really think Fantômas is avant-garde (metal).

Metal Storm http://www.metalstorm.ee/pub/article.php?article_id=161

Encyclopaedia Metallum http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1383

Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fant%C3%B4mas_(band)

Last.fm http://www.last.fm/music/Fant%C3%B4mas 11 @ http://www.last.fm/tag/avant-garde+metal

Prog Archives http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1499

Emmaneul 21:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that The Melvins deserve a brief mention here because they were really avantgarde in 80s metal, despite that they are nowadays commonly labeled as "sludge", "doom", "alternative metal" or whatever. Avantgarde metal bands as Isis, Boris, Neurosis etc. cite 'em as their huge influence, so I think they should be included. Nothingagainst 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Afd Notice

This article was nominated for deletion. There was, however, no consensus to delete. A full review of the discussion can be found here. Tomer^talk 07:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

In light of the article being kept, those who nominated it to be kept, now have the onus on them to overhaul it. Due to the article contradicting seven others, and being a pet name. The article needs to make itself far more clear, far more definative, and stop being someones pet name for their favourite bands. Lest this will be nominated for deletion again in another month or so. Leyasu 08:02, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Avant garde metal

I just wanted to add a few thoughts about Avant garde metal. I wasn't here when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Avant garde metal this article was up for deletion so I will respond now (in an effort to improve it so that it doesn't get nominated for deletion again!).

Just like avant-rock or alternative rock there has to be a different kind of genre for many of these bands. They simply can't fit into something like black metal (although some of them have black metal background and influence). Most of these bands are described in their articles why are they considered avant-garde and not under some of the more known metal genres.

Although there has to be a proof that this genre exists (WP:No original research), avant garde metal is quite obvious. It is derived from the term Avant-garde (read this article, it is verified for a change) itself and heavy metal music. The combination of those two (Avant for experimentation, unusual characteristics and improvisation, and metal music (you should all know about this!!!)) naturally forms avant-garde metal.

Maybe the problem with this article is because not many people are familiar with this subject, but that doesn't mean that the article is for deletion. It seems to me nobody has problems with symphonic metal and I never heard of anything like that before, and it's not verified also. It's easy to keep something that is obvius and delete other things. But why avant-garde metal isn't that obvius to some as symphonic?

I would also like to ask those who voted to delete the article have they listened to any avant-garde metal band? Their works are quite unique and experimental and explain themselves. There is no need for a critic or a verifiable source for that (the music is the source itself!).

Also if you put them into another genre (or a couple of them) you would have the same problem as with Children of Bodom. Of course this does not mean that Chilren of Bodom is avant-garde metal, it is just a comparison.

I think this is it for now, thank you for your patience (if you read this you certainly have it!). Please leave a comment or two on this. Death2 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Avantgarde is a adjective meaning 'Experimental'. Last time i checked every band experiments. Its not a genre, just a cross reference. These bands do nothing that links them together except incorperate minor features into another style of music to give themselfs 'an edge', which all bands do regardless. And i put it up for deletion, as i know most of all the bands, and their sound is not definitive of genre. If i choose to use a woodwind instrument rather than a string instrument in my Mozart cover, have i really just changed the genre of the whole thing? No, i havent, i have simply adapted something to have 'an edge'. Avantgarde is fine, as long as it states what it is, and isnt simply a made up genre. Ley Shade 22:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree you with in some ways, I mean this is definitely an obscure genre, but there are bands that do not really belong to anything but it, I think most notably being late Sigh, which really took away from black metal. Celtic Frost was really more important in death and thrash, so I can understand them being an exception (ie a good example as to why someone might not consider this a genre). Right now it isn't explained to badly but could use reworking. --Ryouga 21:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Winds

I think Winds should be taken off. They lack the complete experimental structure that most of the other bands, epitometically Age of Silence, have. They're pretty obviously neo-classical.

I agree, the only mention I can find "Avant Garde" is here on their page at The End Records and that's on about being signed to AvantGarde Music (which is mostly a Black Metal label). All the links on the bands wiki page list them as Prog/Neo-Classical Metal and both their albums certainly match that. Unless there's some massive difference in stlye on their EP and someone has support I'll remove them. Dace59 14:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

User template

Is there a user template for Metal Arts? I would like to proclaim that I make metal into art, but I can't find one.

--Trentjohnson 14:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite surprized

My real life name (Ethan Mittel) is mentioned in this article. Thank you for the recognition of my works in the field of metal music. --Insineratehymn^{(talk • contribs)} 23:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Difference with alternative

I think the "Difference with alternative" part is really vague and it looks like the only big difference is that avant-garde metal is considered more ‘metal’ than alternative metal. I don’t think that is correct. I think the main difference is that:

• AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres. Hence AG metal is often less accessible
• AG metal often is musically more adventurous, AG musicians tend to avoid cliché’s and be ahead of their contemporaries (avant is French for before, garde is something like “establishment”).
• Alt metal is less pre-occupied by being ‘art’ and therefore leans more towards popular music and leans less towards classical music en jazz.

Anyone agrees? Then I’ll rewrite the "Difference with alternative" part. --Emmaneul 13:41, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, I'll explain later.Frédérick Duhautpas 07:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said I disagree mostly. Let me explain on each point.

• Your first point: AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres. Hence AG metal is often less accessible

There’s a confusion here: of course a major part of AG metal has extreme metal roots. That’s correct. But it doesn’t mean this is necessarily a relevant common trait of every band playing experimental metal. For example Fantomas doesn’t have any black or death roots.

And there is no doubt they are classified as AG. (http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=1383) not Alt…

Actually experimental metal/avant-garde metal is a cross-genre: Basically it implies that metal mixes with some experimental structures.

While statistically bands with extreme metal background are the ones who do it the most, theoretically any other metal subgenre can also be associated with experimental structures, not only extreme bands.

Hence the fact that the extreme nature of many bands is not necessarily a relevant representative trait of the genre.

This is exactly the same confusion with prog definition. People believe that every prog band is meant to sound like Dream Theater, but can we tell that Opeth (which is also considered as prog as well) has the same sound as DT? No, it associates death/doom basis with prog structures while DT associates traditional heavy metal basis with prog structures.

I didn't say anything about extreme metal roots, I deliberately wrote "AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres". Fantomas is no doubt avant-garde and influenced by extreme metal genres (like the omnipresent grindcore-ish, doom metal and thrashmetal influences on The Director's Cut).

You said "While statistically bands with extreme metal background are the ones who do it the most", that implies that generally "AG metal is more focused on... ...extreme (metal)", doesn't it? Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Your 2nd point: *AG metal often is musically more adventurous, AG musicians tend to avoid cliché’s and be ahead of their contemporaries (avant is French for before, garde is something like “establishment”).

I agree more or less with that point. But for the sake of accuracy let me specify some things

I’m French, so concerning the word “Avant-garde”…more exactly it’s a word which refers metaphorically to the military term advance guard or Vangard. (that is to say the forward division in an army)

But I agree with this: AG musicians are meant to be ahead of their contemporaries.

But saying they tend to avoid clichés is a non-neutral pov. Better say they tend to avoid standard or traditional ideas. Anyway I don’t see the point specifying this in that part, as everybody agrees about this and It’s already suggested in the introduction.

However if you only want to specify that it is musically more adventurous, I agree.

Indeed, "tend to avoid standard or traditional ideas" is better Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Your 3rd point: *Alt metal is less pre-occupied by being ‘art’ and therefore leans more towards popular music and leans less towards classical music en jazz.

I disagree, even though subjectively I’d like to agree. But I have to stay objective.

But arguing Alt is less “art” than AG is wrong. And is a non neutral statement.

Anyway metal IS popular music no matter the subgenre, even if it implies experimentation or is influenced by erudite music.

The only music that can be considered as erudite music (or “art music” as some say) are classical, contemporary, and to jazz to some extent.

The term erudite music is NOT a vague notion, it has strict criteria. And metal (even AG metal) doesn’t match them. Metal is definitely from a popular tradition.

Experimentation doesn’t automatically make music into erudite form. Erudite music is linked to written codified tradition and strongly refers to strictly defined theoretical considerations.

For example every erudite avant-garde composer from contemporary music has a clear theory of his own musical language before composing (for example Boulez or Xenakis), it responds to a certain number of empirical observations. They have a perfect mastery of musical theory and a deep conscience of the historical evolutional process in music

While popular music works with instinct rather than with strict theory. This is one of the main differences between popular and erudite music/art music.

Even prog metal, despite some more advanced knowledge in musical language than the average popular musicians, can’t be considered as erudite.

I was didn't say AG metal is erudite music/art music. My point was: Alt metal leans more towards popular music (hiphop, alt rock, punk), AG metal leans more towards classical music en jazz. I think Diablo Swing Orchestra, maudlin of the well's/Kayo Dot's, use of instruments (clarinet, saxophone, violin), unconventional song structure, are reminiscent of jazz and classical music. Something not (or a lot less) present in music of e.g. Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, System of a Down and Marilyn Manson. Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

4. My point

What I meant by implying that avant-garde metal is considered more ‘metal’ than alternative metal, is the fact AG bands responds to one of the common traits of metal.

For the comprehension you have to be aware that the common traits of metal are not necessarily heaviness or screams as some believe. Hardcore music is heavy yet it’s not metal, traditional Heavy metal, goth, symphonic or power metal bands may use clean voices instead of screams yet they are still metal.

The most common trait that defines true metal is a specific groove. This groove finds its basis in dynamics and staccato patterns. In other words most of the true metal subgenres share a specific dynamic rhythmic feel. For more explanation about that groove see heavy metal groove

Of course this groove may have several variations according to genres, but still it is there in every genre.

Now most of Avant-garde metal bands do keep this groove while Alternative doesn’t necessarily.Frédérick Duhautpas 17:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you give an example riff? I have no clue of this HM "specific dynamic rhythmic feel". To me it seems that this 'groove' is not HM specific, it's (rock) guitar specific. In HM the groove is often present but not only in HM. It's part of many (hardcore) punk, and even reggae guitarist have riffs conforming to this groove (e.g. Bob Marley - Could You Be Loved). And alt metal bands too (Rammstein, Faith No More, System of a Down). Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm still very curious Emmaneul 19:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, sorry, I'm writting a extensive reply..so it takes a little time. I hope to post tommorow.Frédérick Duhautpas 10:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Take your time Emmaneul 10:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications.Interesting and relevant objections indeed. It's a pleasure to discuss with you.

1. Your point: I didn't say anything about extreme metal roots, I deliberately wrote "AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres". Fantomas is no doubt avant-garde and influenced by extreme metal genres (like the omnipresent grindcore-ish, doom metal and thrashmetal influences on The Director's Cut).You said "While statistically bands with extreme metal background are the ones who do it the most", that implies that generally "AG metal is more focused on... ...extreme (metal)", doesn't it?

Yes it does, and you’re correct, but saying “AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres” (at least stated like this) could be misleading because it could let people think this is a necessary defining trait of the entire genre, whereas it is only a very frequent occurrence.

As I said theoretically avant-garde metal may be associated with any metal subgenre (not necessarily extreme) even though as I say statistically it’s often extreme.

Yes, Fantômas was indeed influenced by extreme music in Director’s cut, but that’s less the case in an album such as Delirium Corda. But anyway your objection was perfectly relevant, let’s say that wasn’t a good example.

Let’s take another example: Atrox, the band was definitely an avant-garde metal band in their early career. And in an album like Contentum there’s no significant extreme influence, unless you consider the occasional use of double-bass drum as extreme.

Beside one should take in consideration there are bands that indeed focus on extreme and there also are bands who basically have extreme roots.

And both aspects can be met together in a band. But that’s not always the case: many bands with a black background shifted to some softer mood in an avant-garde context.

It’s the case with Ulver for example, even if they had basically an extreme background, in an album like the Marriage of Heaven and Hell they don’t particularly focus on extreme metal.

The same goes with Arcturus, they may have a Black metal background but in albums like Sham Mirrors or la masquerade infernal, they don’t extensively focus on some extreme side of music. Even though a few songs like Radical Cut may still have some clear black flavour.

The same goes for Peccatum they had basically clear references to black metal (what isn’t surprising considering the presence of Ihsahn) in their earlier career, but they evolved to some softer side where goth and ambient influences are more prominent than extreme. Even though there still are a few patterns with clear a Black metal flavour.

Ok, in the last two cases we still can say, they still have black influences, but I wouldn’t say they extensively focus on it.

So this proves you don’t necessarily need to focus on extreme metal to be avant-garde metal.

So yes, you’re right, statistically AG metal is more focused on/influenced by extreme (metal) genres. But that’s not necessarily an ultimate characterizing, neither a crucial differential trait with Alternative.

2.I didn't say AG metal is erudite music/art music. My point was: Alt metal leans more towards popular music (hiphop, alt rock, punk), AG metal leans more towards classical music en jazz. I think Diablo Swing Orchestra, maudlin of the well's/Kayo Dot's, use of instruments (clarinet, saxophone, violin), unconventional song structure, are reminiscent of jazz and classical music. Something not (or a lot less) present in music of e.g. Jane's Addiction, Faith No More, System of a Down and Marilyn Manson. Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying it leans towards art music is misleading either. I wouldn’t say AG leans towards classical music and jazz. I would rather say they get inspired by them and borrow some elements of them. besides ultimately AG with their experimental nature is generally closer to contemporary music or avant-garde jazz than traditional Classical music even though they still use tonality.

But still AG doesn’t lean towards contemporary music, but are rather inspired by it. Btw guys like Ishahn frequently claimed being inspired by it. And Fantomas Delirium Corda shares many similarities with the aesthetic approach of the contemporary music.

But still they are not and don't lean towards Art music.

Art music is characterized by very high compositional, musical language and theoretical exigencies, whereas popular music like AG is freer in their compositional approach and they don’t have specific theoretical concerns. They just use their instinct just like most of the popular music.

And I disagree Classical structures are very conventional. The most frequent structures in classical such as the ABA’, the rondo or the sonata structures are the most common and traditional structures in music. They may seem unconventional to popular music which is used to the common basic verse/chorus song structure but they are absolutely not unconventional.

Most of classical music is linked to tradition and common admitted forms, except maybe with some cases in the late classical and guys such as Liszt who created a very free genre (the tone poem) whose structure is very free. But these structures are very controversial in the classical world, and are often regarded as less noble genres. As the very essence of pure classical is to use traditional and balanced structures.

As for the Jazz it depends on the genres. Some jazz style may frequently use very traditional structure. But some may use less conventional, that’s right.

That’s rather the contemporary music which uses almost exclusively unconventional and even chaotic structures.

But I agree with you on this though: AG is often characterized with unconventional structures. Which can be regarded as a differential trait with Alt which generally uses conventional structures.

But still AG metal only leans toward popular music. The use of Unconventional structures is not what makes a music be or even lean towards art music.

3.Could you give an example riff? I have no clue of this HM "specific dynamic rhythmic feel". To me it seems that this 'groove' is not HM specific, it's (rock) guitar specific. In HM the groove is often present but not only in HM. It's part of many (hardcore) punk, and even reggae guitarist have riffs conforming to this groove (e.g. Bob Marley - Could You Be Loved). And alt metal bands too (Rammstein, Faith No More, System of a Down). Emmaneul 23:23, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems there’s indeed a misunderstanding because Could You Be Loved absolutely doesn’t have this groove. I think the misunderstanding lies in the fact you only focused on the dynamic part of the description. But I mentioned staccato as well. But ok, my description was not enough precise to be understood.

But yes that groove indeed comes from rock, but heavy metal developed it in an unique and distinctive version.

Let me describe it fully:

1. heavy metal generally tends to use rhythmic patterns with small rhythmic cells ( 8th or sixteenth)

2. The rhythmic patterns often focus on the fundamental (often used as a pedal point) or the root of the chords, and repeat these small cells over and over within the bar or several bars( when used as a pedal point)

3. In most of the metal genres they are frequently played in staccato (with Palm muting) which gives some off-handed /sharp rhythmic feel. (Exception being black metal which tends to play their tremolo patterns in legato. ( without palm muting)

4. The heavy distortion associated with the staccato reinforces the feeling of sharp/ Off handed feel.

5. This rhythmic pattern is associated with drums patterns that hit binary division beats. The drums either beat the 4 right beats of a 4/4 bar or at least a binary subdivision of the those 4 beats. (just like it is the case with Death, Thrash or black) . In other words traditional Heavy metal tends to uses the classic rock drums patterns with a bass drum beat on the first and 3rd beat and a snare beat on the 2n and 4th beat. But this basic pattern can be used as a diminished/faster version. As extreme genres tend to use what we call a rhythmic diminution of this basic pattern such as the skank beats and blast beats (which are respectively rhythmic diminutions by two and four of the basic drum pattern) They give a feeling of acceleration and the guitars patterns are played in eighth notes instead of the basic 4th notes of traditional heavy metal. Which is just a rhythmic subdivision of the basic pattern as well?

In its most simple and basic form the traditional heavy metal rhythmic pattern is based on a 4/4 bar where the 4 beats are alternatively hit by the bass drum and the snare. And the guitars plays low palm muted repetitive 8th notes. Like this:

Example of a typical heavy metal rhytmic pattern

An example would be the opening riff of You got another thing coming by Judas Priest or the verse of The Gods made Heavy Metal by Manowar.

But most of the time the guitar pattern is exposed to many variations thanks to ornaments, different rhythmic cells, syncopated variations.

Example of a typical heavy metal rhytmic pattern with basic variations

An example would be the first riff of Orion by Metallica.

Specification: all my examples are in the F# tonality but obviously this doesn’t mean that every metal pattern is in F#. In the case of Orion for example the riff is in E minor.

The thrash and speed metal involved other variations of that grooves by accelerating the speed and using the rhythmic patterns in rhythmic diminution by 2: the skank beats

As already said the classic thrash pattern just makes a rhythmic diminution of this basic pattern and plays it faster.

So a 4 beats figure with a bass drum/ snare alternation in fourth notes is reduced on two beats in 8th notes.

Example of a typical thrash rhytmic guitar pattern

Example of a typical thrash drums pattern

Just like the heavy metal one this basic pattern can have many ornamental variations on it. That’s the case most of the time. An example would be the main rhythmic pattern in the verse of Angel of Death by Slayer.

Speed, thrash and power metal and other genres make also extensive use of double bass drums patterns which reinforce the off-handed /sharp rhythmic feel. So well that they can create that distinctive feel even without the guitar dynamic pattern over it.

Example of a typical double bass drums rythmic pattern

The death metal and Black metal pushed forward the variations of Thrash by using the rhythmic patterns in rhythmic diminution by 4 of the original drum pattern: the blast beats in sixteenth notes. So a 4 beats figure with a bass drum/ snare alternation in fourth notes is reduced on 1 beat in 16th notes. And the guitar makes an extensive use of tremolo picking to play the fast patterns.

But death generally makes many chromatic ornaments, and black generally rids off the staccato picking, as the machine gun’s sound of the drums by themselves create the off-handed /sharp rhythmic feel

Example of a typical heavy metal rhytmic pattern

The prog would often make variations of that groove through odd time signatures for example the main riff of Stream of consciousness by Dream Theater in 5/4.

Now concerning Rammstein, well of course they have it constantly (at least in their first three albums): the best striking example would be the main riff of Bestraffe Mich.

But Rammstein is industrial metal. Yeah some consider Industrial as alternative be it. But I don’t . At least it depends which band. and the Indus like early Rammstein and late Ministry have strong rhythmic metal roots.

As for Faith no more they are alternative and they indeed use that groove time to time.

( I have many examples in head Digging the grave would be the best example, but Surprise you’re dead, the interlude of The morning after, the riff of Caffeine, the ending part of Zombie eaters are good examples too) But I have also even more examples where they don’t use it at all. Almost the entire album of King for a Day doesn’t (except songs Digging the Grave and the Gentle Art of Making Enemy). They rather use some other elaborate rhythmic patterns.

It is much rarer than in traditional metal where this groove plays a prominent role. Now in Faith No More just like many other alt metal bands such as Red hot Chilli ¨Peppers, Rage against the Machine, it less prominent. But they may use it much less than traditional metal.

Concerning System of A down, they indeed use traditional guitar palm muted patterns, but the drums often play more syncopated rhythms without caring the traditional binary divisional drums patterns.

Now when I take an avant garde metal band like Ram-zet this kind of groove is absolutely crucial in their songs. (take Pray or the final thrill). The same goes for Fantomas in their furious parts (Such as the fast part of the godfather) or Peccatum (the first part of Parasite my Heart) .

All in all that groove is less prominent than in traditional metal, but much more present than alternative metal. Frédérick Duhautpas 14:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Difference with progressive metal

Vote for deleting that part. It's original research and non-neutral point of view. It uses analogy for explanation. How is that usefull to the article? It's not even clear, and there is text contradicting it afterwards. 201.62.129.180 19:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

1. First, please read carefully that part before incriminating it for everything and nothing

2. the argument of that part is absolutely not original research, it is based on a fully sourced article. The only part that might be considered as a OR is the specification concerning the Mittel's analogy. You want to delete that nuance? Be my guest..

3. There is no contradiction! Because there's a nuance which is added to the Mittels analogy concerning the common use of tonality, doesn't means it contradicts the general analogy.

4. I don't see where it is non neutral. No opinion is stated here in this part only formal description and explanations.

5. Because some musicological references terms used there may seem unclear to you, doesn't mean it's not coherent.

6. I don't see what's wrong with analogy. Metaphores and analogies are frequently used in musicologic research to illustrate a point. Now the analogy used here is not the argument itself, it's an illustration of the argument. And I don't know any rules that prevent to use analogies as an example. Frédérick Duhautpas 12:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking specifically about mittel's analogy. Maybe I have the wrong idea about original research, but I don't see how having a "fully sourced article" is enough for it being established notion. The part itself is okay until the analogy(and after that).--201.62.129.180 13:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you took in account my second point at least.

Now may I suggest you to focus your attention on some of the others points notably:

the 6th point concerning the analogy

and the 3. and 5. points concerning what follows the analogy.

I repeat it: this analogy is NOT meant to make a notion by itself, it JUST illustrates in more metaphorically terms what was already said in the first part. So I dont see what's wrong when an analogy is used as an illustration of an already exposed notion.

As for the part that follows, I insist it does NOT contradict it, it just adds a nuance. The fact that AG metal may still respect at least some common basic rules (tonality principle that is) doesn't mean it doesn't break many others...So there's no contradiction. Yes AG and Prog both still use basic tonality principles, but still AG breaks many conventional rules much more than prog. And Prog generally refers to theory in their unconventional approach whereas AG is much less concerned by admited theory and rather refers to instinct. But sometimes instinct may be conform to some Theoretical aspects. That's what happens with their use of the tonal basic principles. Frédérick Duhautpas 15:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

List of avant-garde metal bands

The List of avant-garde metal musical groups has been deleted... (Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_avant-garde_metal_musical_groups)

So we might start a list of key artists. The following list contains artists that were on the list (might not be very recent because I retrieved it from the google cache)--Emmaneul ^(Talk) 08:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

A-E

   *  Aarni
   *  Age of Silence
   *  Arcturus
   *  Atrophia Red Sun (ca. 2003)
   *  Beyond Dawn
   *  Blut Aus Nord (recent work)
   *  Buckethead
   *  Callisto
   *  Carnival in Coal
   *  Celtic Frost
   * / Cronian
   *  DÅÅTH
   *  Deathspell Omega (later works)
   *  Diablo Swing Orchestra
   *  Diabolical Masquerade
   * / Dødheimsgard
   *  Dol Ammad
   *  Ephel Duath
   *  Estradasphere

F-J

   *  Fantômas
   *  Fleurety
   *  Gorguts
   *  In the Woods...
   *  Isis

K-O

   *  Karaboudjan
   *  Kayo Dot
   *  Kekal (later albums)
   *  Korovakill (formerly Korova)
   *  Lux Occulta
   *  maudlin of the Well
   *  Mayhem (ca. 2000)
   *  Moonspell ("The Butterfly Effect" album)
   *  Naked City
   *  Nuclear Rabbit

P-T

   *  Pan.Thy.Monium
   *  Peccatum
   *  Ram-Zet
   *  Sculptured
   *  Sigh)
   *  Solefald
   *  Stargazer
   *  Stolen Babies

U-Z

   *  Ulver (ca. 1998)
   *  uneXpect
   *  Unholy
   *  Ved Buens Ende
   *  Vintersorg (ca. 2002)
   *  Virus

Experimental metal

Why does experimental metal redirect here? Avant-Garde certainly IS experimental, but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing. Kidburla2002 14:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

YES, they are, Avant-garde metal and experimental metal ARE the same thing. Frédérick Duhautpas 19:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

We should just call it indie metal. Death2 02:28, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no such a genre Indie metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.23.199 (talk) 20:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Opeth

I intend to delete Opeth from the list of notable avant-garde metal bands. I don't consider Opeth as an avant-garde metal band. It is rather a progressive death/extreme metal band. And most of the sources I can see so far confirm my feeling. Frédérick Duhautpas 19:06, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Opeth are not Avantgarde at all Karpsmöm 19:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Opeth Definitely isn't avantgarde. It seems that some people just overstate their use of different chord progressions, in unconventional way.

Voivod and Gorguts

I think Canadian bands Voivod and Gorguts deserve a mention to this page. Voivod pioneered the use of dissonance, strange time signatures, and strange time structures to metal. They are probably one of the first Avant Garde metal bands along with Celtic Frost. Gorguts also deserves to be mentioned, listen to there album "Obscura" and you'll understand what I mean.

Therion

Hey, could Therion be included as Avant-garde metal. At least they are inspired by Celtic Frost, the one of the best knowable foundations. For example their most experimentalious record Symphony Masses Ho Darkon Ho Megas, has avant garde qualities, due to strange guitar work, sympho tones or in generally sound of Into the Pandemonium. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.156.250 (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

You're correct, Therion occasionally displays experimental structures. That's a fact. But here, the list of this article is not meant to be a comprehensive one of every metal band including some (occasional) experimentations, No, this is a list of CRUCIAL avant-garde metal bands. Now despite the experimentations of Symphony Masses Ho Darkon Ho Megas Therion is far from being a crucial band in avant-garde metal. On the other hand there is no question they are a crucial band in symphonic metal. Frédérick Duhautpas 17:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed

"At the same time despite a large amount of eccentricities, unorthodox and unconventional traits, avant-garde still saves a certain number of specific traits of Heavy metal (most particularly its specific groove) unlike alternative."

Seems to me that some black/death metal fan was trying to weasel in an opinion about alternative metal not being metal at all. Prepare to be Mezmerized! 02:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. I have absolutely have nothing against alternative nor do I favor Black metal. Before making that kind of wrong supositions may I ask you to read that discussion above, where I extensively argued why. discussion aboutthe difference with alternativeFrédérick Duhautpas 04:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Meshuggah

As experimental metal is regarded to be the same as avant-garde metal here on wikipedia I think Meshuggah needs to be added to the list of key artist. Their last few recordings (f.e. I (EP) and Catch Thirty-Three) are very experimental and Meshuggah is referred to as experimental metal by numerous websites.

• blabbermouth.net "Swedish experimental metal band Meshuggah"
• blabbermouth.net "Swedish experimental extreme metallers MESHUGGAH"
• www.mtv.com "Swedish experimental-metal legends Meshuggah re-upped with Nuclear Blast this week"
• www.nuclearblastusa.com "It is impossible to talk about experimental or avant-garde metal without mentioning this truly groundbreaking act: MESHUGGAH"
• www.metal-observer.com "Welcome to the second part of their experimental phase and also the last according to the band"
• www.bbc.co.uk "and yet more Swedes, in the form of experimental metal masters Meshuggah"
• www.nashvillescene.com "which draws on the brutal, experimental-metal legacies of acts like Meshuggah"

I have added them to the list. Kameejl ^(Talk) 15:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Alternative metal bands need separate list if included as "Avant Grade metal"

This list will always be subjective, but inclusion for some of these bands is just a little too questionable. Otep? Meshuggah? Dog Fashion Disco? What next, are Korn going to be added on this list because they use bagpipes in their music? LOL. There's some obvious dispute mentioned by others, so rather than a complete removal, just separated the list...fair enough.--Danteferno (talk) 01:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is also about experimental metal, it's even seen as synonym (I don't agree with that btw), so it's perfectly OK to have less 'wacky' :) acts in the list. Kameejl ^(Talk) 01:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

That's why the "disputed" section works. Realistically, the alt/nu metal bands should be removed entirely from the list, but maybe some reasoning from the 'yay' side could shed light on things.--Danteferno (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Have I ever advocated we should include any alt or nu metal band in this list? No.

On the contrary, it is a nonsense to include alternative bands in a section dedicated TO AVANT-GARDE METAL bands. That's why I removed this section and called it a POV. To me any bands considered as alt should simply be removed. Here's my point. They should not have a section appart, they should be removed.

Kamejl, I'm ok with anything labeled "experimental", because as you pointed yourself, it is synonymous to avant-garde metal. My point is I'm not ok with things labeled as Nu or ALT in this section. Here' the problem in this issue.

Frankely speaking I would never have seen Messhugah in this list. But kameej provided many sources calling it experimental, I don't change anything. But I really fail to consider Messhugah as an Avant-garde metal band.

Either bands are plainly recognized as AGM either they are not. But I don't think we should have a section aside to be convenient with people who consider alt metal bands as avant-garde metal bands. In my opinion, each time a band generate controversy whether it is AGM or Alt, then it should be provided sources supporting the fact they are real AGM.

As for Peccatum, I totally regard them as a AGM. I removed your edit without noticing I was.

Concerning Fantomas, I'm sorry but they are commonly regarded as a AGM band exclusively, So I don't think they should be classified as alt metal at all.Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 09:31, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

As a reaction to Danteferno:

I don't think the disputed section will work if it's done like it is now. Firstly, what is alternative metal? There are different definitions. The bands you separated from the list don't fit the alternative metal genre because they are far more experimental then all alternative metal I know. Only OTEP fits the nu/alt metal description (and therefore may be removed from the article). Secondly, as far as I know, Fantomas is the definite avant-garde metal band and needs to be in the list. Thirdly, Meshuggah certainly is experimental metal (see sources in the section above) and can be in the list.

My concerns are the following:

• Experimental metal is metal that is experimental (obviously), Avant-garde metal goes further than being experimental. Meshuggah is extremely experimental, but avant-garde? No.
• The different meanings and inconsistent use of avant-garde metal:

• "ahead of their time": bands like Celtic Frost, In the Woods... who played music that is not that unique anymore, but were peerless at the time of creation. This is the true use of avant-garde metal but nowadays, classifying these bands as avant-garde does not make sense.
• "10 genres in 1 song": bands like Mr. Bungle, Estradasphere and Dog Fashion Disco play dozens of genres, preferably in 1 song. That makes them experimental, avant-garde to some extent, but are those bands avant-garde metal? Some of these bands don't focus on metal but play metal occasionally (alongside the myriad of genres they play). I think that isn't enough to make them an avant-garde metal band (experimental music/rock is more fitting).
• "avant-garde + heavy metal": bands like Fantômas that have musical traits from avant-garde music (experimental 'art' music), music that defies all common notions of music, combined with metal traits. I think this is the best definition of avant-garde metal (and I believe that's what this article is all about).
• "unconventional metal bands": experimental bands like Ephel Duath, Gorguts, Kekal, that combine several genres, sometimes incorporate unconventional instruments, have a unique sound, and therefore are hard to classify. This includes modern black metal acts like Solefald, Deathspell Omega and Blut Aus Nord.

If it were up to me, I would put all the "10 genres in 1 song" bands and other bands less focussed on extreme metalin a separate list. The "unconventional metal bands" should be put in an experimental metal list. In other words, I wouldn't split the list like it is now so I'll revert it (and remove OTEP).

But whatever I say, the biggest problem is the lack of sources. AGM is regularly used to describe bands but there aren't a lot of descriptive sources around. I've read the AGM chapter in Sound of the Beast but it's pretty different from what's described in the article, including different bands. Kameejl ^(Talk) 12:44, 27 December 2007 (UTC)