Talk:Mazanderani language

Mazandaranis are not ethnically Persian

http://www.myspace.com/mazandarani

According to CIA World Factbook, Mazandaranis are not ethnic Persians, but a distinct ethnic group [1]. So I suggest to have a page on Mazanadarani People as well.Heja Helweda 04:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Who is CIA?! We are Persian for the simple reason that we identifiy ourselves as persian. Also the first language of urban population in Mazandaran is Persian not Mazandarani. Sangak 20:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am ofcourse not persian, but i proud to be iranian, i also proud to be tabarian, persians who don't consider other people and would like to consider themselves are disrespectfull, like what you are writing here, please assume good fath, You may think persian, but i am living among them, just in sari and babol people talking mostly persian, and some turkic cities of mazandaran like shahi and behshahr mistake! --Ali 18:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Mazandarani is alive and should be kept alive, not only because it is the language of a part of Iranians, but also since it is a backup for Persian. However I can guess where you are coming from, mentioning "Turkic". !!

Yes, You right, i did a mistake, i also wasn't so much in shahi and behshahr, Honesty almost everyone of non-mazanderanis about mazandaran are akinda fraudulent, A turk-originated immigrant in Shahi stated that --Parthava (talk) 07:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The usage of Mazandarani has been in decline. Its literary and administrative rank was lost to Persian perhaps long before the ultimate integration of Mazandaran into the national administration in the early 17th century. Most people of Mazandaran are bilingual and many see Persian as their first language. Sangak 19:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So, this is up to people and not language, please show some other evidences, actually you made me norvous to writing that message --Ali 19:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the research by Maryam Borjian, Mazandarani is unintelligible with respect to Persian.Heja Helweda 05:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the same paper notes that the speakers of Mazandarani are bilingual in both languages --Rayis 09:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there is still no consensus on wikipedia regarding what constitutes/defines an "ethnic" group. What is "ethnic"? Does the mere criterion of speaking a different language suffice? Or is it a racial issue? If the point is a linguistic issue, you cannot define an "ethnic" group based on it. Will anybody please finally come up with a sourced statement regarding what an "ethnic group" actually is, and how it relates to a "linguistic group"? Shervink 15:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

language could not be an evidence for ethnic, Since many of the people in iran are educating persian, or in india, malaysia, canada, australia, new zealand people enjoy speaking english, However they are from various nations, But A Mazandarani Man who interests his culture and his land shall use Mazandarani, along with business language, Also please note that this is the article of language and not the article of people, since some people insist to including some unrelated notes, Keep on using mazandarani, ema vene na'orim veshon re gap re, ame gap ke andi sadoo'e o jan ri dilbere vene genim,

my take on this: Mazandaranis are of course an ethnic group. But they have assimilated large numbers of (predominantly male)Georgians, Armeniasns, and to some extent also Jews, Kurds and Afghans. Day by day the arrogant Tehranis come to Mazandaran cut off the trees and dry the rice farms and make villas. laugh at Mazandarani language and customs and Tehranize the area. Thi bilingualism in Persian as such, however, goes back to earlier dates. The educated (predominantly Urban) classes there has always been bilingual in Persuian and Mazandarani. Tehrani persian is not making the natives stop speaking their language (yet) but has currupted the purity of their speech and customs.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Please note that these all are mutual, I found too many parses of sentences which were mazanderani originated in tehrani persian, Although i never saw those tehranis, but i aware that Mazanderanis also laugh at tehrani's style of persian, game for tehranis has been over. Land prices are now so high that no one could buy a piece of land. --Parthava (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop being a radical, "arrogant Tehranis laugh at" any other dialect, including dialects of Persian. By the way a part of Tehranis are modern Mazandaranis.--92.242.212.254 (talk) 13:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the MAJOR part of today tehranis are mazanderanis, I am a native tehrani, i never saw even one tehrani to fooling my language, Just IRIB and radio televisions are keeping fun with it, P.S. that's not mean that if radio/tv channels making fun with my language, So tehranis do. I also don't deny that some mazanderanis sometimes make funs with it (those persian is the 1st for them) --Parthava (talk) 20:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography

(moved from separate article)

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• Christensen, A., 1995 (tr.), Contributions a la dialectologie iraniene, Dialecte Guiläki de Recht, (Guyesh –e Gilaki-ye Rasht) translated, with notes by Ja‘far Khomāmi Zāde, Tehran.
• DeMorgan,J., 1904, Mission Scientifique en Perse, vol.5,Etudes linguistiques(I.) Dialectes du Kurds. Langues et dialects du nord de la Perse, Paris, pp.200-246.
• Farhang, Dena, 1383, “Ehterām be xānande, yāddāšti bar romān –e ā´dat mikonim”, Golestāne, sāl 5, no. 60, pp. 89-91.
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• Nasri Ashrafi Jahangir, (ed) Farhang e Bozorg e Tabari, 1381, 5 vols, Ehya ketāb, Tehran.
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• 1376, Guyeš e Kelārdašt, Tehran, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies.
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• 1371, “Tanavvo´e lahjeha dar Guyeš e Gilaki,” majalle-ye dāneškade-ye adabiyāt va ´ulum-e dānešgāh e Ferdusi Mašhad, no.4, sāl25, pp. 934-976.
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• Mozaffari, M., V., 1979, Noqāndāri, Langrud.
• Najaf zāde Bārfurush, M., B., 1989 , Važehnāme-ye Māzandarāni (Māzandarāni vocabulary), Tehran.
• Nowata, T., 1948, Māzandarāi, (Asian and African Grammatical Manual, No 17), ILCAA, Tokyo.
• Oranski, I., M., 1979, (tr.), Moqaddame –ye Feqholloqe- ye Irani, translated by Kešāvarz, Tehran.
• Purriyahi, M., 1971, Barresi-ye dastur-e Guyesh-e Gilaki-ye Rasht (A Grammatical Study of Gilaki dialect of Rasht), (Ph.D Thisis), Tehran University.
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• Rabinau, Jasant lui, 1319, (tr.) Dudman e Alavi dar Māzandarān,tr.by Tāheri Shahāb, Tehrān.
• 1343, (tr.) Safarnāme- ye Māzandarān va Astarābād, tr. By Q. V.Māzandarāni,Tehran, Bongāh e Tarjome va Našer e ketāb, Tehran.
• Samare, Y., 1988,”Tahlil-e Sāxtāri-ye Fe‘l dar Guyeš –e Gilaki-ye Kelārdašt”, Majalle- ye Dāneshkade –ye Adabiyāt va ‘ulum- e ensāni –ye Dānešgāh e Tehran, Vol.26, no.4, pp. 169 -187.
• Samā‘i, M., 1991, Barresi-ye Guyeš-e Tonekāb, (M.A.thesis), Tehran University.
• Sartip pur, J., 199o, Vižegihā-ye Dasturi va Farhang-e vāžehā-ye Gilaki (Grammatical Characteristics and Glossary of Gilaki), Rasht.
• Shokri, G., 1990, “Sāxt-e Fe‘l dar Guyesh-e Sāri ”(Verb Structure in Sāri dialect), Farhang, Vol.6, pp.217-231, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies, Tehran.
• 1995, Guyesh-e Sāri (Mazandarāni) (Sāri Dialekt), Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies, Tehran.
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• -1998,”Māzi –ye Naqli dar Guyeshhā-ye Gilaki va Mazandarāni” (Present perfect in Gilani and Mazandarāni Dialects), Nāme-ye Farhangestān, The Quarterly Journal of Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, vol.4, No.4, Tehran.
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• Sokolova, V.S. and A.L. Grjunberg, 1962, Istorija izuchenija bespis`mennyx iranskix azykov, lzd. AN SSSR, Moskva, pp. 118 – 147.
• Surtiji, Faxreddin, 1375, Takvažhā-ye Vābaste-ye Māzandarāni, Farhang, Institute for Humanities and Cultural Studies.
• Vahidiyān Kāmkār, T., 1964, Dastur-e Zabān-e ā`myāne-ye Fārsi(A Grammer of Popular Persian), Mašhad.
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Disruptive editing by 68.5.250.146 (talk)

I’m afraid edit summaries by 68.5.250.146 (talk) - given his long history of disruptive editing e.g. at Amir Taheri – can’t be trusted. It looks as if the sources he claims to refer to were added by him (here) rather spontaneously and haphazardly via copy and paste from the above list. He very probably never read them. Note the typo "Wiesbadan": he simply repeats it. --Ankimai (talk) 01:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ya, You are right, he simply paste the sources which are above (in talk page), and he never initiated any discussions, ... So what is your solution ? --Parthava (talk) 05:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about Amir Taheri. Parthava is a bit rude but his take on Mazandarani language is closer to reality than that of 68.... With all due respect I also do not see anything positive in the envovlement by a Nigerian in such matters as regional lnaguges of Iran. Subjects which requires expertise to the native level. I also do not uderstand why he is so anti-Georgian when he himself (in chat) states that he is a Georgian Mazandarani. But: Mazandarani is not a persian dialect. Though stating that it is unintelligible with standard persian is also a big statement. Intelligibility is a word which has gradual and relative meaning. It should be said mazandarani is a Northwestern Iranian language while standard Persian is a South Western one. I think you should use this phrase as I said. About Gilaki instead of Mazandarani. I have heard this also from another native Mazandarani that they called their language Gilaki before, though it was different than the language of Gilan. I will ask another Mazandarani though. Finanlly I should add that I am not someone who comes to edit on demand. I have my own intellectual integrity. I am not the paid kind of pesudeo-scholar who writes anything for a certain agenda. I only write the truth. I am not much into propaganda. If I can help with editing and clarifying the truth I will, but I wont undo edits by people, only because they are rude or so...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Protected

The page is now protected for 7 days. During this time, please try and find common ground and arrive to a version that all can live with. If you cannot, this is a good time to pursue dispute resolution such as third opinions or requests for comments. If you are ready to resume editing or to contest the protection, place a request at WP:RFPP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

On January 11 68.5.250.146 (talk) added some sources. I am sure though that he has never seen, let alone read them. He simply copied and pasted them (because they contain the word 'dialects', probably) from this list - without realizing that he copied and pasted the typos, too ("Wiesbadan", "Geselaschaft"). This guy is a vandal and troll (have a look at the edit history of Amir Taheri, please). Regards, Ankimai (talk) 23:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

---

Ankimai is making baseless accusations. He engages in revert wars on issues about which he has absolutely no knownledge. Even when you provide him with sources of the highest caliber, he makes absurd justifications for totally ignoring all references such as the one he makes now - without even reading the source! Please see his totally inappropriate vandalism and revert warring on Amir Taheri evidencing his tendency.

To Parthava

dear Parthava I have supported your case with regard to mazandarani language. nevertheless, if you go on with your carless manner of edits, deleting all sources materials and pushing your own theories (e.g. your Sanskrit theory) You will not have my support any more. Therfore I suggest revert the edits to my last edits, which were in accordance with the core of your POV--Babakexorramdin (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Nonesense, calling it gileki or mazanderani is not so much important, So i don't waste my time for it, And also i added those refrences first, And that man used it to frauding all of the readers of this article, Yes people in tehran may be right, because Mazanderan TV's mazanderani programs are actually resembling dialect rather than to be language, you can see it's channel, and you can understand almost all OF it, and then compare it with mazanderani wikipedia, I'm not stubborn, Just like when you talk about georgian heritage, that persian guy (or gay, Since his notes in mzn wp reflects Eva Khahari) thinks that iranians are persians both you & this man's ideas boring me, These such theories couldn't help to be unified, And then it provides more chances to those pan-turks you & this man remarked before --Parthava (talk) 07:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Why is my "ideas" are boring to you. I simply supported you POV on Mazandarani language, but formulated in a nice way.This is what I'm asking. BTW the Mazandarani TV was not easily intelligible to me--Babakexorramdin (talk) 09:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Protected edit request

{{editprotected}} false version, Please correct it or revert it (request made by User:Parthava)

 Not done Please lay out exactly what change you wish to be made and get consensus from other editors on this talk page before requesting a protected edit. -CapitalR (talk) 12:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Definations of vandalisms by IP

{editprotected|See below for details} She first appeared 27th of May removing the source and imposing her nonesenses, Then 31st of May 2007, My friend from Sweden the list of works on language what this user later when she understands that her works marked as vandalism them because of having dialect in them in jan 11th of 2008, without awaring what wrotted there, Many of users including user:Shervink, user:Heja helweda, user:Hborjian, user:Ankimai,...were not agree with her.
When user:Visviva asked for reference, she just copy/paste the biblography items having the word dialect to preventing her vandals getting reverted.
He also removed the reliable sources, As linguistics know that two languages are not intelligble, This just has political background in the Pahlavi era, when all of the local cultures and languages censored, See Carina Jahani's Work. Not only sources, list of references and many others such as this one claiming that it is a language, Johannes Dorn researched about it some 6 years resulting in Masanderanisch Sprache german for mazanderanish language and not dialect.
Without needing the entire source of those, Anyone could understand that it is a hoax and Sources are claiming that it's one of caspian dialects, Since caspian dialects are intelligble from region to the neighbor region but not from far east to the far west, both mazanderani and gileki are two dialects of caspian language, See the map created by myself in Caspian languages page. --Parthava (talk) 08:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

N Not done. This request is not comprehensible. State clearly and in proper English what exactly you would like to have changed, please. Sandstein (talk) 15:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for delayed response, I requested per above, change the current version this version, Thank you, Many of sources, details, infos, ... deleted and non-senses that i stated above about it added, Thank you --Parthava (talk) 17:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Protected again

This page has already been protected in March, and again in May. The problem is that there seems to be no resolving of the conflict here on the talk page in the first place, so every single time the page is unprotected, the edit warring resumes. This time the page will not be unprotected until the conflict is fully resolved. I have left a note on 68.5.250.146's asking him to participate. Khoikhoi 06:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are the one who actually wants to resolve it, you may saw my notes above, My notes clearly specifies that this user is nothing to do, but just vandalizing the page, We had too many wasteful disscussions, But the obvies thing is that this guy not aware where he is adding nonesense staffs,
This page will be remained protected, and this is what you like, you stated mazanderanis are persian before, which is not NPOV --Parthava (talk) 15:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a clear content dispute, not a case of vandalism. Therefore, it is imperative that you follow the the dispute resolution process. Khoikhoi 21:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I told you that you are n't neutural in your postion, Sources never and never stated this, This is you misunderstanding of it, Here i tried to discuss, But it is the best thing for you to keeping it protected in this version, You instead must resolve it, If you can't, you arent eligible to resolving edit wars by protecting it at wrong version. Surely no one contribute --C (talk) 05:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not involved in this dispute. I only edited this page once in April 2006. When you said "you instead must resolve it", this is not my dispute to solve - this is between you, 68.5.250.146, and others who were involved in the recent edit war. Also see meta:The Wrong Version. Khoikhoi 21:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I am more than willing to participate in dispute resolution. Until this point Parthava's idea of "dispute resolution" has been to unilaterally delete all sources contradicting his POV and labeling all dissent and contrary opinion as "vandalism." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk • contribs) 10:06, 22 June 2008

If you are indeed willing to resolve this, please state clearly and concisely here on the talk page a justification of your reverts (and don't forget to cite your sources). This must be also done by Parthava. Khoikhoi 21:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this is imperative that Parthava follows the the dispute resolution. The disputed section is heavily sourced and verified by several references. I don't understand why Parthava keeps removing sourced information. If Parthava wants to challenge the section content, he should provide supporting references. I believe that everything can be improved but deleting sourced information doesn't work in WP.--Larno Man (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I also don't understand why he is removing sourced information and adds non-senses,

Clearly that guy just copy/pasted my references which stated just dialect, Also Caspian dialects are not persian dialects, they are dialects of caspian language, Which stated in that source, I have too many notes, infos,... that i was going to adding in many of mazanderani-related articles, But reliable, internet-published sources are different, Anyways, Sources never stated it and the notes are not verifiable. I previously justified and clearly specified and defined the acts of this guy before, You can't see above or you don't like to mention it ? --Parthava (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Parthava! Although I was one of the major contributor in Mazandarani people, I tried not be involved in edit wars in Mazandarani Language article. However, it seems that the situation is getting worse and worse here.

Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.

It seems that you have a very rare point of view. Not many (or even any) Mazandaranis share your POV. As an example, if you ask a Mazandarani or Gilaki whether Mazandarani/Gilaki is a language or dialect, he/she will get offended. Mazandarani/Gilaki people always consider Mazandarni/Gilaki just as a dialect. --Larno Man (talk) 22:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Calm down Larno Man, I know who are you and what you did before, What you do is just offending our culture and your thoughts are completely none-sense, I'm living among mazanderanis, none of them (except a tiny group of immigrants) identify themselves as iranian, We've never been part of iran & never been practicing any of iranian traditions,

It is also none of your business to talking about which is dialect or language, If it is mutually intelligble with persian, So at least english must be a german dialect, Since i get what germans are writing in german wp,

Soon, we will secure our culture by isolating our region from your iran to not being offended by stupid peoples writing pe.r.s.i.an pe.r.s.i.an anywhere --Parthava (talk) 23:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Well! I prefer to contribute to articles by bringing more scholarly sources other than engaging in endless revert wars as you usually do. Let's scholars talk. Pushing Tiny-minority views and fringe theories, reverting legitimate contributions of others, engaging in edit wars and insulting other editors don't work in Wikipedia. --Larno Man (talk) 23:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani Persian is a dialect of Standard Persian, not an entirely distinct "language"

Per Khoikhoi's request, I am again repeating the principle that Mazandarani Persian is a dialect of Standard Persian, not an entirely distinct "language." This is supported by the overwhelming majority of sources, both Iranian and Western, which I have provided in the footnotes of the main article. In all of these articles, Mazandarani Persian and other Caspian dialects of Standard Persian are unambiguously referred to as "dialect." All Mazandaranis are fluent in Standard Persian and as well as their regional dialect of the same. The overwhelming majority of Mazandaranis regard themselves as Iranians/Persians and do not regard themselves as a seperate "Ethnic" group speaking a seperate "language." Mazandaran itself is a 30 minute drive from Tehran and millions of Tehrani city dwellers come from families in Mazandaran. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Persian Arabic is a dialect of Classical Arabic, not an entirely distinct "language"

Yes all of persians fluent in arabic, In many articles, Persian Arabic and other South-western iranian dialects of Classic Arabic are unambiguously referred to as "dialect." The overwhelming majority of Persians regard themselves as united of Islam World and do not regard themselves as a seperate "people" group speaking a seperate "language." and different "culture" Iran itself is a 30 minute flight from Arabian peninsula and millions of Iran dwellers (including even ancestor of my great-grand mother) have the arabic prefix name "Sayyed" which as far as i know means that they are not persians. AM I WRONG ? --Parthava (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Story of "what's the mean of speaking persian, Let's talking english!"

Yeah, This is what i heared from a guy who i asked him that "your parents were talking in Mazanderanish style of Gilish, So why you speak persian to me?" He returned the above sentence
Talking english is prevalent in tehran and there is a high interest to speaking it in mazanderan --Parthava (talk) 13:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for dispute resolution

I believe there is a disagreement on whether Mazandarani is intelligible w.r.t. Persian or not.

1. I hope that we don't disgree on the fact that it is a separate language as reported by ethnologue[2]. It is a northwestern Iranian language as opposed to Persian which is southwestern. So the sources that refer to it as dialect should be carefully scrutinized. While I see some European sources (and they should be mentioned), I am not very sure about the Persian ones, due to the lack of neutrality.
2. Then there is the research from University of Columbia, according to which Mazandarani is mutually unintelligible w.r.t. persian. This source should also be included along the rest to have a fair and balanced view ([3], p.66).Heja Helweda (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Mazandarani is a dialect, and Ethnologue is not a scholarly source

Ethnologue is a non-academic, evangelical Christian organization which publishes information on languages primarily to spread the "good word" of the Bible to different regions. Besides having its neutrality serious under question given its agenda, it is not a scholarly source.

Ethnologue is notorious for shoddy scholarship. For example, in Ethnologue, the speakers of Persian and Azerbaijani languages in Iran are estimated as 36% and 37%, respectively. This is when in fact Persian is the lingua franca of Iran (Persia), spoken by 98%+ of the population. It would be like saying 36% of Americans speak English and 37% Speak Spanish. Even the CIA World Factbook, no friend of Iran or Persian nationalism, puts these same percentages as 51% Persian and 24% Azarbaijani. Sometimes the total numbers of speakers of languages in a country differ from the overall population figure: for example, for Croatia, Ethnologue gives a total population of 4,496,869 while, remarkably, the number of Croatian speakers in Croatia is reported to be 4,800,000.

On the other hand, I have provided numerous academic sources, from several countries around the world, both inside Iran and outside Iran, clearly indicating that regional Persian dialect of Mazandaran Province is indeed just that - a dialect. The other reverter is unfortunately an ideologue with a seperatist bias who does not want to acknowledge any source contrary to his own views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 02:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

As for your second source....

It is not a "study" by the "University of Columbia." It is an essay written by one Maryam Borjian, a "Master of Education" student at Columbia. The author is not even a doctor or professor, nor is she trained in linguistics. Whereas all of the sources describing Mazandarani Persian as a dialect of standard Persian are published sources in linguistics publications by linguistics professionals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.250.146 (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sources supporting Mazandarani Persian as a Caspian dialect of Persian, not a language "unintelligible" with Persian

1. 1372, “Pishvandha-ye tasrifi va ešteqāqi dar afāl e Guyesh e Māzandarāni Kelārdašt,” Majalle-ye Zabānshenāsi, sāl.1, no.1, pp. 88-105

2.Le Coq, P., 1989, “Les dialects Caspiens et les dialects du nord- ouest de l, Iran,” in Schmitt, R. (ed), Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, pp.296- 312, Wiesbadan.

3. Melgounof, G., 1868, “ Essai sur les dialects du Masenderan et du Guilanla pronunciation locale”, Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlandischen Geselaschaft, vol.xxII, pp. 195-224.

4. Kalbāsi, Iran, 2004,”Gozašte-ye Naqli dar Lahjehā va Guyešha-ye Irāni”, Dialectology, Journal of the Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, vol. 1, No.2, pp.66- 89.