Talk:Hitler's Obersalzberg Speech

Comment

Most of the comments on this matter claiming that Hitler did not say it are ridiculous because it makes no difference whether he said it or not. The truth or untruth of the allegation is dependent on what, if anything actually happened. It is disturbing to see those who say the "genocide" did not occur claiming that Hitler did not make this quote, because they are defending him not Turkey. It's not as if Hitler had a reputation for telling the truth which needs to be defended.

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I think this page would be considerably improved if names and sources were stated.

Who recalled the quote in his memoires?

When was the speech made?

Are there other references to the speech (though not neccessarily to the very mentioning of the atrocities against the Armenians)?
--Ruhrjung 09:35, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Bardakjian vs. "Hovhanes" vs. Lowry

Many Armenian academicians are only interested in evidence that affirms their identity-forging genocide, closing their eyes to the rest. One that appears to be a true scholar is Dr. Robert John (Hovhanes) who concluded... at least at one time... that the quote is a fake. (From an article In The REPORTER, “America’s Leading Armenian Newspaper,” August 2, 1984.) Bravo with attempting to seek the truth, instead of pursuing the typically Armenian "My People, Right or Wrong" policy.

This is why I'm not too excited with what Dr. Kevork B. Bardakjian has come up with. An Internet search demonstrated he may be one of these scholars that lack credibility. He too closely associates himself with his Armenian identity, and his emotions probably supersede his professional responsibilities. The fact that his work on the Hitler quote comes out of the propagandistic Zoryan Institute certainly does not add to the integrity of his research. (And the fact that he works/worked at one of the main hubs of Armenian propaganda in the United States, the University of Michigan... the headquarters of Dennis Papazian and "Turkish scholars" who find jobs at the university level only because they support the Armenian point of view, also troubles me.)

Of course, the best proof of how good his research is will come out of the reading of his work, which I have not done. A clue to what lies at the root of his findings may be found at the ANI website: http://www.armenian-genocide.org/hitler.html; describing the text of Hitler's speech:

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The text above is the English version of the German document handed to Louis P. Lochner in Berlin. It first appeared in Lochner's What About Germany? (New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1942), pp. 1-4. The Nuremberg Tribunal later identified the document as L-3 or Exhibit USA-28. Two other versions of the same document appear in Appendices II and III. For the German original cf. Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik 1918-1945, Serie D, Band VII, (Baden-Baden, 1956), pp. 171-172.

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Therefore, I can see Dr. Bardakjian refers to the same source as did Prof. Heath Lowry, in his research that came out during the same year as the Armenian scholar (1985). Lowry's work is entitled, "The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians."

Louis Lochner (a former bureau chief of the Associated Press in Berlin)'s version was introduced in the Nuremberg trials, but the tribunal rejected Lochner’s version of Hitler’s Obersalzberg speech in favor of two more official versions found in confiscated German military records.

Noted WWII historian William Shirer wrote of the Obersalzberg meeting strictly on the basis of reliable sources including the Boehm notes, the Halder diary, and the captured memorandum. He rejected the "Lochner version" because "it may have been embellished a little by persons who were not present at the meeting at the Berghof."

In other words, by people who hoped to benefit by its propagandistic value.

Various sources behind this dubious quote, so widely used whenever there is an article on the purported genocide (representing the all important connection to the Holocaust... the coattails of which the Armenians must attach themselves to, since the sympathy value is immeasurably enhanced) are explored in this page: http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/hitler-quote.htm

"Alleged quote"

The passage given is not an "alleged quote", it is an exact quote from the book. It is alleged that Hitler stated it, but the quotation listed is exact. As for the numbers, the typical number quoted is 1.5 million; the actual numbers can be debated in other articles. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:46, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

First, I want to object to continuous reverts by user Jayjg. I do not want to engage in edit war, therefore, I suggest us to discuss the issue in the talk page. Meanwhile, I will refrain from further reverts.

The dispute emerged when I changed the wording in the text from "The exact wording given is:" to "The alleged quote is:".

My major point is that if the historical authenticity of the quote is disputed, i.e. if there are considerable questions on whether there was any such quote at all, then the wording "exact quote" is not quite appropriate. In such case, it would be more expedient to use the wording "the alleged quote".

As to the numbers, I also have no desire to engage in fruitless dispute over the number of victims of what you claim to be an "Armenian genocide". I merely put the lower and upper numbers generally used for the number of innocent Armenian victims of the World War I. I am against using the tragic events that took place in the final years of the Ottoman Empire to promote political goals. I want to stress that Turks and Armenians have highly differing views on the number of Turks killed by Armenians and numbere of Armenians killed by Turks. By putting a highly disputed and inflated number at 1,5 million we present a one sided story. On the other hand, wording 0,6-1,5 million is quite objective and leaves the final decision to the reader himself/herself.

Regarding the quote, the article itself says in the very first sentence allegedly included. It is quite clear that it is only alleged he said it. As well, please note the article does not, as you claim, say the exact quote; rather, it says the exact wording, of what has already been made clear is an alleged quote. Constantly repeating alleged is both stylistically bad and gives the appearance of an agenda.

As for "genocide" in quotation marks, I have little patience for denial. Some estimates of the Armenians killed go well over 2 million, but 1.5 million seems like the most quoted number to me. Would you prefer estimates ranging from .6 million to 2.1 million? Encarta says "During World War I (1914-1918), the government of the Ottoman Empire deported two-thirds or more of its estimated 1 million to 1.8 million Armenian citizens in eastern Anatolia (present-day Asian Turkey). The deportations, mainly to the deserts of present-day Syria, led to the deaths of most of these Armenians by massacre, rape, starvation, and dehydration. (The government of Turkey denies Ottoman government responsibility for the deaths of the Armenians and disputes the labeling of these events as genocide. However, these events have been affirmed as genocide by the European Parliament and more than ten countries—including Vatican City—and also acknowledged in legislative bodies in the United States and Canada as well as by independent genocide scholars.)" Jayjg ^(talk) 16:22, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Jayjg here. I've looked at the current wording, and it seems unambiguous; the passage is introduced as being allegedly a genuine quotation, and the article goes on to explain that it's disputed by various people and groups. There seems to be no good reason to repeat the point that it's merely alleged, though it would be nice to have the source of the quotation given in the introductory sentence — something like: "The exact wording reported by so-and-so [or in such-and-such a place] is...". As it is, the reader is left wondering, until quite near the end of the article, where on Earth the passage is allegedly quoted from (that is, we're told that it's alleged to be from the speech of Hitler's, but not the source of the allegation). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"exact wording" is transparently wrong. If Hitler said this he would have said it in German, so what we have here must be a translation—and the source of that translation should be given. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 20:52, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're right. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:59, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Compromise Solution

I have made the following corrections to the text, incorporating Jayjg’s and Mirv’s earlier editings. I very much hope that this time the text will be acceptable to all of us.

• Most important edition concerns the vital mentioning of the fact that the Hitler’s alleged quote was NOT accepted by the Nuremberg tribunal as evidence.

Jayjg added new text :

According to the Turkish author Kamuran Gurun, in his book The Armenian File – the Myth of Innocence Exposed [1], and other sources, [2] it was apparently first published on November 24, 1945 in an unsigned article titled The War Route of the Nazi Germany on page 4 of The Times newspaper published in London. The article cited the quotation, and stated that it was declared that the minutes of this meeting was brought forward by the prosecutor on November, 23, 1945, (i.e. the previous day), as evidence at the Nuremburg Trials.

The problem with this sentence is that it states only half of the truth, and thus, leads to misinformation leaving an impression that the quote was actually accepted by the Nuremberg tribunal. In order to complete the picture and prevent misunderstanding/misinformation, I added the following text, omitted by Jayjg when he cited Kamuran Gurun:

: …However, even though it was stated in the newspaper that the prosecutor had submitted these minutes to the court the previous day, this was not the case. On the contrary, on November 26 and not on November 23 the prosecutor had had declared at the court they possessed three different documents concerning Hitlers decision to start the war one, of which was sent to them by an American journalist. Nevertheless since the concerned document was given to the journalist by another person and since there was no evidence that the document was given to this person by the actual person who took the records, he was of the opinion that this document was distorted and would not hence submit this document to the court as evidence. On the defence attorneys’ stating that the document which was not submitted to the court had been published in a newspaper, the prosecutor had regretfully admitted that this was the case. The conclusion arising out of these talks is that the journalist who sent the minutes to the court had his article published in the Times on November 24 believeing that the minutes would anyway be submitted to the court on November 23 as evidence. However neither the issue was elaborated on November 23 nor the minutes were submitted to the court as evidence. Second and third editions are minor, but needed and any objective person wouldn’t object to them:

• So, second minor change is that I replaced the word “translation” with “variant”. This is important, because, there is no original and single German version of the quote; therefore, we can talk about “variants” and not some quite possibly non-existent “translation”. I think, this can be a compromise, between me and Jayjg, when we disputed over whether to formulate it as “exact wording” (Jayjg) or “alleged quote” (myself).

• Third minor change also reflects my desire to come to a compromise. I continuously objected putting inflated (in my view) number of the Armenian victims at 1.5 million. I previously suggested to indicate the lowest and highest numbers (0,6-1,5 million or even 2,5 million, as Jayjg claimed). Therefore, I gave the following edition to the sentence,

“The last sentence of the "Armenian quote" is a reference to the Armenian genocide, an episode during World War I in the Ottoman Empire, when according to some estimates (earlier version, “approximately”), 1.5 million ethnic Armenians were killed.” Thus, this variant is more even handed and allows for alternative points of view.

I also have a suggestion, the present variant of the page gives too many variants of the “Armenian quote” (4, precisely). I think, it is too much and makes the text confusing. I suggest Jayjg to remove the last two variants since two more widely used variants are enough (I don’t want to do it myself and leave it to Jayjg’s goodwill).

I've summarized the second half of the Gurun reference, and moved discussion of the contentious issue up higher. Since most estimates are in the 1.5 million range, I've change the text to reflect that. As for too many quotes, I thought listing the variations and the sources would be helpful, but I welcome other comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would prefer a formulation "according to some (rather than "many") estimates" referring to the number of Armenian victims (in my POV "many" seems to have a connotation of political agenda). Nevertheless, I'm glad we achieved consensus. This is another proof that people with differing views can achieve an agreement when they start to talk.--Tabib 05:38, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Kamuran Gurun a diplomat

I've just restored 24.202.58.17's description of Gurun as a diplomat; he was, so what's the objection to saying that he was? He's not any more, of course, but then he's dead... Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:31, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

While I had no objection to that specific claim/word, you restored a whole lot more stuff that was inserted today, most of it POV, and all of it un-cited. Did you mean to do so? Jayjg ^(talk) 19:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Either my browser was playing up, or I'm going mad. I'd have sworn that when I first looked there was only the 'diplomat and' (and a rogue ñ) there... I've reverted the rest of what seems to have been my overhasty revert. Sorry. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:50, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

OK, it appeared again. I've cut it all out and moved it here. Even if some of proves acceptable, it needs rewriting to turn it into decent English:

Edourd Calic in the book [i] Two confidential interviews with Hitler in 1931[i] provides an interview of Adolf Hitler published by the Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten in 1931, where Hitler makes a similar statement regarding Armenia[n]("Erinnern Sie sich doch an die Austrottung Armeniens.")

"...Are we really to remain as a nation of have-nots for ever? Why should not the sources of raw materials be equitably distributed? We save the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation. In the long term ought Germany to be ground down economically? Everywhere there is discontent. Everywhere people are awaiting a new world order. We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy; we do not wish to go on treading each other's toes in Germany. In 1923 little Greece could re-settle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the eradication of the Armenians. One eventually reaches the conclusion that masses of men are mere biological plasticine. We will not allow ourselves to be turned into niggers as the French tried to do after 1918. The nordic blood available in England, northern France and North America will eventually go with us to reorganize the world. The discontent in their own home countries and in their colonies will leave them no choice."

This style of Hitler that was similar to his speech is recognized by Ludwig Krieger. As it has been published in [i] Yale Journal of International Law[i], Vol. 23, No.2, 1998, p.540

“The transcript checks with the original...Having been a shorthand writer at Hitler's briefing conferences in his headquarters during the Second World War, I recognize Hitler's style and reactions throughout the record. Breiting's papers as a whole confirm the sequences of events. Both from the factual and political point of view; the checking of these papers has been of extreme interest to me.”

Adolph Hitler known style to refer to success and models, was further confirmed when he was interviewed by the editor of the Turkish newspaper Milleyet in July 1933 as Norman H. Baynes report in the book: [i]The Speeches of Adolf Hitler. April 1922-August 1939[i], Vol. 1(Oxford, 1942) p. 868

In the interview he refer to the success the Ataturkist Turkish states foundation was,(that was a consequences of the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian population) the movement in modern Turkey was according to him a “shining star.”

Vahakn N. Dadrian, an authority in the subject of the Armenian genocide, write regarding the Armenian reference in Hitlers quote and about this issue:

“The explicit reference to the Armenians is made in a paragraph furnishing the context of one of Hitler's notions that the creation of a new world order calls for a resort to mass murder for which he cited the example of Genghis Khan who "sent millions of women and children into death knowingly and cheerfully (frohlichen Herzens). Yet, history sees in him only the great founder of States." This line of thought is introduced to conclude that the extermination of the Armenians served a similar purpose. The Turks destroyed them mercilessly allowing Mustafa Kemal to establish a new Turkish state system and the world not only consigned the annihilation of the Armenians to oblivion but has accepted the new order of the things because "The world believes only in success" (Die Welt glaubt nur an den Erfolg.)”

Hitler's sympathy with the founder of the Turkish republic was confirmed earlier, during his November 1923 Putsch in Munich, as Joachim C. Fest affirm in his book [i]Hitler[i](pp. 156-57) according to Hitler the founder of the Turkish republic Mustafa Kamel Ataturk was a true statesman, and whom has acted “boldly” and “forcefully.” Paul du Veou, in his book [i]Le desastre d'Alexandrette 1934-1938[i] (Paris 1938) pp. 2, 136-139, confirm that Hitler was influenced by modern Turkey, by referencing to the Turkish design to annex Alexendrette, to annex in his turn Austria.

Ernst Jackh, a German author, wrote in his book The Rising Crescent (New York, 1944), pp. 64-5

"The Ottoman dynasty began at a time when the hordes of Genghis Khan—the Pan-Asiatic Mongol—was sweeping westward and carrying the swastika in Asia Minor. It ended when the modern Genghis Khan—the Pan-European Hitler—was laying plans for the drive of his swastika-bearing armies toward the ends of the earth."

As noted by Leo Alexander in "War Crimes and Their Motivation. The Social Psychological Structure of the SS and the Criminalization of Society," Journal of Criminal Law, Criminology and Police Science, XXXIX (September-October 1948) p.300

"[Hitler] had discovered in a book about Genghis Khan ... as early as his Landsberg Prison days"

Wanda von Baeyer, a German psychologist, has even gone as far as to stat Hitler himself had introduced the SS practice of Blutkitt, Genghis Khan's tradition of cementing solidarity among his hordes through the perpetration of merciless mass murder.

Bardakjian provides further evidences and examples in his work covering the issue to demonstrate that the quote in question should be viewed as a continuation of other statements made by Hitler that were similar to the one questioned. Dadrian conclude this issue in his work “The History of the Armenian Genocide” pp. 408-409

“The confirmation of the accuracy of the portion on the Armenians in Hitler's speech extends to that on Genghis Khan as well. The context is the same, the words are uttered in the same vein, and Hitler on other occasions acknowledged the legacy of the latter as a source of inspiration for him. The entire debate in terms of the origin, conditions, and authenticity of the document, containing Hitler's speech, and the range of arguments about its merits are examined in the other study undertaken by K. Bardakjian, who concluded that the document is authentic.32 Even though the motives of Hitler in wanting to destroy the Jews were not in every respect identical with those of the Ittihadists wanting to destroy the Armenians, the two victim nations share one common element in Hitler's scheme of things: their extreme undesirability. He emphasized the urgency of "the task of protecting the German blood from contamination, not only of the Jewish but also of the Armenian blood."”

I am the recent user that edited the Armenian quote

My first edition was not POV(most of it were not), it was the conclusion that many had.

My second edition(this as well was reverted back) was just meant to cite few sources, it was meant to be a first version to cite and bring references to my first edition. If some require that people discuss about an issue before editting that's fine for me, but I think that editing and reverting the entire material without explanation was not the right thing to do, some of the evidences I provided were a "must" to be included, like Professor Gerhard L. Weinberg, whom document in his work that the speech was obtained by the British Ambassador to Berlin, Neville Henderson, on August 25 and that there is a ribbon copy in his own papers which could be found in the Public Record Office at Kew. In Vol. VII (1954) of the official series Documents of the British Foreign Policy, 1919-1939, "disproving" somehow the claim that the quote appeared years after 1939. Another relevent information was that Hitler gave two speech to that effect the same day and that many thinks that the second speech was the reue version excluding the Armenians, when it was another speech, this is both confirmed in what is writen in the USA-30 Nuremberg file, and many scholars, Dadrian himself cite that there has been two speechs.

It's hard for me to tell which parts of the claims here are actually cited somewhere. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:38, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean. If you mean websites, I have little or none to provide you, my infos I take them by reading books, I am not a copypast machine like some. There are two works that cites pratically all of the references I have provided, you can actualy read them yourself and verify. And to add, another work, which is written by Professor Gerhard L. Weinberg in which he document and claim that the reference to the Armenians can be found in a document dating back in August 1939, and refers to archival records. The professor add with support(by reffering to the detainled articles appearing in the scholarly quarterly Issued by the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich in 1968 and 1971 witten by Winfried Baumgart), that it has been demonstrated that Hermann Bohn version was an abbreviated version of Hitlers speech. Meaning that we are left with two speech Hitler gave on that date, as refered in the USA-30 Nurenberg file and that we can not use Bohn version. This entirly "disprove" the article writen by Lowry which the page refer to.

I'm sorry, but I find it very hard to understand your comments and edits. Would it be possible for you to briefly quote the authors directly? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:51, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I was the person who removed the material this time. I did so for three main reasons, apart from being unsure of the neutrality of the addition:
  1. It wasn't incorporated into the article, simply tacked on to the end.
  2. As it stands it's simply a list of references and quotations, which isn't appropriate for an encyclopædia article.
  3. The English needs to be significantly improved (I'm aware that English isn't your first language, so this isn't a criticism of you, just a statement of fact; you might like to look at Wikipedia:Contributing to articles outside your native language). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:53, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removed material

I've twice removed an edit made by Yce (talk · contribs), which changed:

"during which, according to many estimates, approximately 1.5 million ethnic Armenians were killed."

to:

"during which, according to many estimates, approximately 1 million ethnic Armenians were relocated. The number of the death tolls during the mass relocation is disputed and it ranges from 200.000 to over a million."

Leaving aside the English, which would obviously need to be corrected, who disputes the death toll? Whose estimates are 200,000, whose are over a million, and which and whose estimates fall between? The original text contains some vagueness of the same sort, and similar questions need answering — but that doesn't justify the addition of more vagueness and unsourced claims. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:19, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mel Etitis, first of all thanks for your remarks about my English, I will work on it. Secondly, if you ask me whose estimates 200.000 are (Answer:The Armenians had given this number to UK in Paris Peace Conference), I ask you the same question; whose estimates are 1.5 million and according to what source, while the official Ottoman archives say that the Armenian population in all over Anatolia(not only in Eastern Anatolia) was 1.5 million in 1915 ? Recently revealed notes of Talat Pasha gives the exact number of the relocated Armenian people in Anatolia which is 924,158. He had also specifically written down how many Armenian citizens were relocated from which cities and if you wish I can send you the material. This tragedy happened 90 years ago, and two sides have their stories. It is very well known that the number of the dead people inflated from several thousands (in 1969, Le Figaro even claimed 20.000 people were killed during relocation.-which was a pretty low figure) to 1.5 million. You are also very well aware that this issue has become highly political. This is internationally disputed and maybe will never be resolved. I strongly wish, all from my heart that some day we witness the revelation of truth, whether it was a state sponsored genocide or not, whether the death toll was 1.5 million or 200.000...But now, if we are trying to contribute to a neutral article, both side's claims should be written in a proper way. --Cansın 18.57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

By the way dear Mel Etitis, as a native speaker of English, if you specify the errors I made, I appreciate your help and I can improve myself. What is the level of vagueness which makes you decide "more vagueness" about my entries. I also appreciate if you share your comments on "vague" contents of the main article, so that we may improve the article accordingly.--Cansın 22.22, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Proposed version

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The Armenian quote is a paragraph allegedly included in a speech by Adolf Hitler to Wehrmacht commanders on August 22, 1939, a few days before the German invasion of Poland. The authenticity of the quote has been disputed. The key area of contention regarding the "Armenian quote" is a reference to the Armenian genocide, an episode during World War I in the Ottoman Empire, during which, according to many estimates, approximately 1.5 million ethnic Armenians were killed. The authenticity of the quote has become hotly contested between Turkish and Armenian political activists. Since the quote is now inscribed on one of the walls of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., its authenticity has become an issue in debate over the politics of Holocaust commemoration.

The sentence defined the war with Poland as a genocide of Poles. One version is as follows:

"I have issued the command – and I'll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my Totenkopf (Death's Head) Units in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death, mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

Another version is given as follows:

"Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality. Ghengis Khan had millions of women killed by his own will and with a gay heart. History sees in him only a great State-builder. What the weak European civilization thinks about me does not matter. I have given the order, and will have everyone shot who utters one word of criticism...

Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

According to the Turkish diplomat and author Kamuran Gurun, in his book The Armenian File – the Myth of Innocence Exposed[3], and other sources, [4] it was apparently first published on November 24, 1945 in an unsigned article titled The War Route of the Nazi Germany on page 4 of The Times newspaper published in London. The article cited the quotation, and stated that it was declared that the minutes of this meeting was brought forward by the prosecutor on November 23, 1945, (i.e. the previous day), as evidence at the Nuremburg Trials. Gurun states that the document in question was sent to the prosecutor by an American journalist, but never actually submitted to the court over concerns it might be distorted. In his view, the article was sent to the Times by the journalist under the assumption that the document would be submitted to the court, though it never was.

Other versions are given and attributed as follows:

"Our strength consists of our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter - with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It's matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me.

I have issued the command I'll have anybody who utter one word of criticism executed by a firing squad- that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy.

Accordingly, I have placed my death head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them do send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space [lebensraum] which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" (Louis P. Lochner, What About Germany?, New York: Dodd, Mead and Company, 1942, p.2)

"Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality. Ghenghis Khan had millions of women and children killed by his own will and with a gay heart. History sees only in him a great state builder. What weak Western European civilization thinks about me does not matter.

I have given the order, and will have everyone shot who utters one word of criticism that the aim of the war is not to attain certain lines, but consist in the physical destruction of the opponent. Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my "Death's Head units" with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only in such a way will we win the vital space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?" (Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression, Volume VII, p. 753)

A Turkish commentary says:

This so-called Hitler statement is accepted as a "historical fact" and has been quoted by numerous politicians who support the Armenian cause, in parliamentary debates in North America. It also appears routinely in Armenian propaganda publications.

"The Armenians want to play on the sentiments of the Jewish Holocaust and purport that Adolf Hitler made this quotation in a speech regarding his planned annihilation of the European Jews... The problem with this linkage is that there is no proof that Hitler ever made such a statement. It is claimed that he referred to the Armenians in the manner cited above, while delivering a secret talk to members of his General Staff, a week prior to his attack on Poland. However, there is no reference to the Armenians in the original texts of the two Hitler speeches delivered on August 22, 1939, published as the official texts in the reliable Nuremberg documents." (Armenian Forgeries and Falsifications)

Contradicting this argument is the Armenian-American Zoryan Institute, which has promoted a refutation of the Turkish claims, Dr Kevork B. Bardakjian's Hitler and the Armenian Genocide. The Institute says:

"Through meticulous research, Dr Bardakjian has traced the likely source of the document and the circumstances of is publication. The author has compared the three extant versions of the document and explored the reasons why the prosecution at the Nuremberg Tribunal did not enter this particular version as evidence, thus giving rise to the renewed doubts.

"The scope of the research includes a little known antecedent as well as other evidence which indicates that Hitler was aware of the Armenian genocide and used this knowledge to his advantage before and during the Second World War. The appendices contain copies of the relevant documents, allowing the reader to make his/her judgment on the authenticity of this intriguing piece of historical evidence." (Hitler and the Armenian Genocide)

Bardakjian also retraces a very similar references to the Armenians in 1931(Eight year earlier), by Hitler during an interview the fuhrer gave to Richard Breiting, the editor of the German daily, Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten, the organ of the conservative-nationalist Germans. Hitler is reported saying: “...remember the extermination of the Armenians.”(erinnern Sie sich doch an die Austrottung Armeniens). This itext was discovered by Edouard Galic, and published in his book Ohne Maske(1968). Balakjian also retraces many references made by Hitler, concerning the Armenians, as well as the NAZI, by trying to demonstrate that the Armenian quote of 1939, is not an isolated cases, which could be dismissed, but rather a continuation of Hitlers continual references to the Armenians, as example.

Both Turkish and Armenian commentators have an partisan interest in this debate. Commentaries on the authenticity of the "Armenian quote" by impartial observers are harder to find. While he criticize the American government for not officially recognizing the Armenian genocide, Michael Chapman, editorial director of the Cato Institute, a conservative American research centre, writes:

"That particular quote could not be found in any record of the speech he gave in preparation of Germany's invasion of Poland, where the alleged Armenian reference was targeted against the Poles, and not the Jews. Scholars have studied the authenticity of this quote, and it is most likely the Fuehrer never uttered these words." (cited at this website)

But Prof. Gerhard L. Weinberg, alleges that the speech containing the Armenian quote, was obtained by the British Ambassador to Berlin, Neville Henderson, on August 25 and that there is a ribbon copy in his papers which could be found in the Public Record Office at Kew. In Vol. VII (1954) of the official series Documents of the British Foreign Policy, 1919-1939. Prof. Gerhard L. Weinberg also maintains that the most complete account of the speech, that was taken down by Adm. Hermann Böhn, that excluded the Armenian quote, was an abbreviated and inaccurate version, and that for this reason can not be relied upon to reject Adm. Canaris version, which according to him, should have been used instead. To support his argument, Weinberg refer to the articles that appeared in the scholarly quarterly Issued by the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich in 1968 and 1971, in which, according to him, Winfried Baumgart has demonstrated that the account by Adm. Hermann Böhm, is an abbreviated and inaccurate one, and since Hermann Böhm was asked to compare the other two versions of the Obersalzberg speech(those excluding the “Armenian quote”), the professor consider that the version containing the Armenian quote is probably an accurate one of one of the two speeches given by Hitler that day. Weinberg also claims that Böhms love for Hitler made of him a character that one could not rely upon, and for this reason, other followers of Hitler, like Adm. Canaris, should have been taken into consideration instead. (See his book: The Foreign policy of Hitler’s Germany: Starting World War II, 1937-1939 (Chicago/London, 1980), pp. 610-612 and “Letters to the Editors,” New York Times (June 8, 1985) p. 16)

The source of this problem appears to be that the quote allegedly comes from a speech made by Hitler, not from any written or published text. Its authenticity or otherwise thus depends on the recollections of eye-witnesses, the validity of which may be doubted, and has been doubted, by later commentators. In the absence of any means of either confirming or refuting the authenticity of the quote, and in light of the intense partisan passions surrounding both the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust, it is unlikely that this issue can ever be satisfactorily resolved.

See also

• Anti-Polonism

External link

• The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians

Heath W. Lowry, Institute of Turkish Studies

• A Summary of Hitler's References to the Armenians

From www.teachgenocide.org

Sources in the German Foreign Office's Archive

German version of the third paragraph of the motivational speech held at Hitler's Obersalzberg home to members of his General Staff and others, H. Göring among them - the speech was held secret:

"Unsere Stärke ist unsere Schnelligkeit und unsere Brutalität. Dschingis Chan hat Millionen Frauen und Kinder in den Tod gejagt, bewußt und fröhlichen Herzens. Die Geschichte sieht in ihm nur den großen Staatengründer. Was die schwache westeuropäische Zivilisation über mich behauptet, ist gleichgültig. Ich habe den Befehl gegeben – und ich lasse jeden füsilieren, der auch nur ein Wort der Kritik äußert – daß das Kriegsziel nicht im Erreichen von bestimmten Linien, sondern in der physischen Vernichtung des Gegners besteht. So habe ich, einstweilen nur im Osten, meine Totenkopfverbände bereitgestellt mit dem Befehl, unbarmherzig und mitleidslos Mann, Weib und Kind polnischer Abstammung und Sprache in den Tod zu schicken. Nur so gewinnen wir den Lebensraum, den wir brauchen. Wer redet heute noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?"

My translation - based on the fragments already cited:

"Our strength is in our quickness and our brutality. Ghengis Khan had millions of women and children killed by his own will and with a gay heart. History sees in him only the great State-builder. What the weak European civilization thinks about me does not matter. I have given the order - and will have everyone shot who utters one word of criticism - that the aim of {translator:this} war doesn't consist in reaching certain {translator:geographical} lines, but in the enemies' physical elimination. Thus, for the time being only in the east, I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of the Polish race or language. Only thus will we gain the living space that we need. Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

The above is verbatim according to a takedown in writing to be found in the German Foreign Office's archive. A scan in PDF fomat was emailed to me by Dr. Peter Grupp on 08.09.05. It's my best guess that any polite inquiry will be answered.

The complete speech is available online in German language at fes.de, the cultural foundation of the German Social Democratic Party (governing party as of 08/08/05). The date given is 08/23/1939. I will track this down.

Source data:

Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik 1918-1945
(en: Files on the German foreign policy 1918-1945 - official site of the German Foreign Office)
Serie D: 1937 - 1941
Band VII: 9. August bis 3. September 1939: Die letzten Wochen vor Kriegsausbruch
(en: August 9th to September 3rd 1939: The last weeks before the outbreak of war)
Signature(en): SEL B 2388
Pages: 171-172
I uploaded Dr. Grupp's scan to wikimedia.org.

German Foreign Office:

Auswärtiges Amt
11013 Berlin
Germany
Phone: +49(0)30-5000-2159 (Secretariat of the Political Archive)
Fax: +49(0)30-5000-3948
[5]

Printed by appointment of the German Foreign Office and to be ordered here:

Verlag Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht
Theaterstr.13
37073 Göttingen
Germany
Price EUR 18,90 (as of 08/08/05)

To do:

These files are refered to in the German Foreign Office's PDF:
"British Documents, series 3, volume VII, Nr. 314, attachment"
"British Documents, series 3, volume VII, Nr. 399"

Track down the files above at the British National Archives and make them available online; as the access via email/mail is not free, this will take time. UK help is welcome, as personal access is free. Possibly they are to be found at the Library of Congress as well.

To my judgement the quote's authenticity is a constant target of disinformation campaigns. The article needs a thorough rewrite. --Marek Moehling 23:42, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:56, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

No source in the German Foreign Office's Archive

More precision is needed here. The document in question is not to be found at the German Foreign Office's archive (Politisches Archiv). Neither were the "Akten zur Deutschen Auswärtigen Politik" edited by the German Foreign Office. Finally, the presentation on the Friedrich Ebert foundation website referred to above is incomplete. 84.188.255.162 16:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is nonsense

Turkish editors on Wikipedia are successfully rewriting history to their own point of view, while the Armenian editors here go ahead and let them. This quote is DEFININTELY NOT alleged, you can put that on the Turkish version of Wikipedia as so many of your institutions of learning and higher learning have already done so.

This quote is a fact, it is supported by almost all countries of the world - with the exception of the Turks and Azeris. ANd there are obvious reasons why they deny the Genocide, as they have denied and rewritten history ever since their countries establishments. This is ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.195.167 (talk) 07:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What is nonsense is that this non-quote by Hitler has been burned into our collective memories. Frankly, as a Turk I had thought Hitler actually made such a statement too. Then we find out there is no such statement. Why is there a whole topic dedicated to this untruth here otherwise? Then again, the truth has been so throughly and so systematically brutalized by the so-called genocide mythologists that one should not be surprised to which extreme extremists will go anymore.--Murat (talk) 18:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

This is definitely no nonsense at all

[[6]] BeeJay 80.136.60.123 (talk) 20:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

you may, please, look on this scholarly piece on the issue [[7]] Malteser.Falke (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)