Talk:Electric car

Image selection and order

I think the most interesting images should be first on the page. More interesting are highway capable electric cars. Less interesting are vehicles limited to the neighborhood. For example the GM EV-1 should be first since it was the best spec vehicle. What do you think? If you agree please make the changes.   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 18:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The EV-1 is still the best car (of any type) ever designed. 199.125.109.42 (talk) 02:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

an obvious advantage that is rarely discussed

is that electricity is an all-use energy source nowadays. You power your stereo, your lights, anything with it. Electric cars won't need to have extra power sources. I see that rarely or never discussed. Actually I see it never discussed while it's so obvious. I hope there are sources on it to be included in the article. --Leladax (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparison to Internal Combustion Vehicles - Running costs section. - Criticism.

This section and its reference on internal combustion engines used to justify it, has compared the total efficiency of some of the least efficient (American) gasoline engined cars including all vehicle losses, solely to charge/discharge efficiency of an EV. This is misleading as it excludes vehicle efficiency losses for electric cars but includes them for gasoline powered cars, and so is not comparing like with like. Comparable figures for engine efficiency only are Gasoline engine 27% and TDI Diesel engine 44%. [1] Checked - VOLVO says - 30% and 45%.

This section only refers to 'internal combustion engines' making no distinction between petrol/gasoline and diesel engines - again misleading as diesel engines are nearing twice the efficiency of a petrol/gasoline engine.

The section completely disregards the fact the most vehicle users will use power from the grid. 40% Efficiency at the Power Station - 75% Grid transmission loss = 10% efficiency at the socket. On that basis overall efficiency is 0.81*0.1=8.1% rather than 32%. [[2]] Cock-up here - UK transmission losses 7% approx. But US DOE says 9.5% for USA [3] and 'The average thermal efficiency is around 33%.' in US Power plants - not 40%. The same reference shows the US grid is seriously under invested and having trouble meeting current US demand. I think I got the original 75% loss figure from when I was at school and it represented the total UK efficiency loss of the power station and grid transmission at the time.

So total generation and transmission efficiency is: 33%-9.5%=29.865 Converting that for car use is: 0.29865*0.81=0.2419 or 24.19% rather 32%. So Electric Car = 24.19%, Diesel = 45%, Petrol/Gasoline = 30% - All figures do not include vehicle losses E.G. (Tyre friction, Aerodynamic drag) and so are like for like comparison.

Critiqued and amended by the original poster in italics.

If the object of the exercise in looking at alternatives to conventional vehicles is to reduce Co2 emissions, then that has to mean using the most efficient vehicle you can buy. That currently is a diesel and not an EV with 8.1% efficiency. A TDI vehicle is 36% more efficient AND can run on renewable waste fuel. Electric vehicles did not win the US 'Tour de Sol' competition for greenest car, a VW TDI running on Waste Vegetable Oil did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.115 (talk) 03:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I see 3 problems with that: it's very POV; it's entirely unsourced; & your math is terrible. 44% efficiency v 8.1% isn't 36% better, it's 36 points better, or about 5.5 times better: 0.44/0.081. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've ripped into what was a pretty horrible mess and probably made it worse. Do others agree that the headings are right now, and that they are in the right order (I have no particualr opinion there)? I've then distributed the various facts, rants, factoids and so on into the appropriate headers, and deleted the worst of the soapboxing. Next step is to decide on what representative fuel consumption vs energy consumption we want to compare and apply them consistently. Pricing is aproblem since it will change. I added some uncited statements that are more thoughtstarters than encyclopedic statements.Greg Locock (talk) 08:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

OY SHOUTY. Can you stop using all caps? So, we have a reference for the 9.5% http://www.energetics.com/gridworks/grid.html (interesting number), can you get one for the 33%<Late edit I see it in that same article, great>? I suggest that you don't hot link refs in Talk pages, just use normal text. I'll edit the article, that's a 30% overall efficiency. Greg Locock (talk) 02:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't edit my mistakes out. I used caps to differentiate what I had been posted at 2 different times, as a correction - not to shout. The 33% power station efficiency is the same US DOE reference as the transmission loss.

Electric Generation

America operates a fleet of about 10,000 power plants. The average thermal efficiency is around 33%. Efficiency has not changed much since 1960 because of slow turnover of the capital stock and the inherent inefficiency of central power generation that cannot recycle heat. Power plants are generally long-lived investments; the majority of the existing capacity is 30 or more years old.

Mr IP 85.119.112.115, according to this Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses

the electric power transmission losses are 7.2%. And you are not including the transmission losses for oil. Oil has to be shipped from the Middle East, then trucked across America. I cant put a number on that but I am guessing that is pretty high loss. Oh, you have to refine it as well. Bluetd (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

(a) You can't use wiki as a reference, you need to use external referneces (b) the loss is about 15%, it also applies to the fuel for the power station so it is roughly a wash. Well/coal pit to socket/bowser efficiencies would make more sense I agree, but for the purposes of comparison I don't think it makes a huge difference. If you can find good sources put them in. Greg Locock (talk) 03:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We are on the talk page - I can use Wiki as a ref here. Bluetd (talk) 20:33, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but in the article the figure given is externally referenced by a reasonable source. I don't know how we decide between the two.Greg Locock (talk) 01:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The US DOE reference says 9.5% for the US Grid. The Wikipedia page included UK grid efficiency references. I believe that the total efficiency of all the types of vehicles should be used, (from the oil well / coal mine / Co2 created building wind turbines, nuclear power and extra grid capacity etc, for fuel, and to include car transmissions, aerodynamics, friction etc, and the Co2 emissions from building new cars as opposed to retrofitting), because that indicates the actual amount of Co2 they put into the atmosphere. It would also be a like for like comparison. The objective is reduced Co2 emissions not a particular technology. The section was misleading, because it ignored where electric propulsion most loses efficiency, and used slanted information to mislead about the efficiency of internal combustion engines. The comparable efficiencies above also brings into question equivalent MPG figures for electric cars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.171 (talk) 13:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been many studies comparing the CO2 emissions of electric vehicles vs. gasoline/diesel vehicles, and an accurate statement is that the electric car is 60 to 100% less than the gasoline/diesel vehicles. Someone is doing some really strange math to come up with such nonsense as is currently in the article. or was in the article - I'm about to delete it as total OR. The main point, though is that with a gasoline or diesel car it is impossible to keep CO2 from the atmosphere, while with an electric car it is easy - just charge it from solar panels/wind turbines. One recent study includes road maintenance, and while I interpret black differently than they do (where it says black, substitute light gray, where it says gray substitute dark gray), they predict a 50% reduction in CO2 even including road maintenance (most big trucks don't run on electric, although Beijing has 6,000 electric trash trucks now, just for the olympics).[4] 199.125.109.129 (talk) 07:58, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Reference? "There have been many studies comparing the CO2 emissions of electric vehicles vs. gasoline/diesel vehicles, and an accurate statement is that the electric car is 60 to 100% less than the gasoline/diesel vehicles. Someone is doing some really strange math to come up with such nonsense as is currently in the article." The 'strange math' was referenced from a solid source - where's yours? "The main point, though is that with a gasoline or diesel car it is impossible to keep CO2 from the atmosphere, while with an electric car it is easy - just charge it from solar panels/wind turbines." Did you bother to see that you can have the most efficient engine type and run it on renewable fuel? Did you not read the US DOE link that most electricity in the US is fossil based? or do you only charge up at home?

Yes there certainly is a lot of 'strange math' associated with electric cars. Dude! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.119.112.139 (talk) 00:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is there no mention that electric cars can recover their kinetic energy? Considering that is effectively a built-in feature of EVs, it seems unfair to not include it the above comparison. Also, ICE-based engines achieve their maximum efficiency moving along the highway at constant load and RPM. I'm quite sure that EVs are much more efficient at variable load and RPM than ICEs. Lastly, EVs are powered by a combination of renewable and non-renewable sources. Of the non-renewable sources, they shouldn't cause much more consumption because they would charge at night, when coal plants and still going full-speed but power demand is much lower and therefore wasted. This section is over simplifying the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.163.126 (talk) 06:27, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

the list

An editor removed the list with the following comment"Removed table as per wp:pov and wp:or. Any "selected" list needs a source supporting the specific selection otherwise the selection criteria are personal POV and/or original research"

Another editor added a new list, with similar problems

I removed it, using the same edit summary.

Dicklyon then (Reverted 1 edit by Greglocock; It would be better to add to the list to make it more complete than to delete it. (TW)) (undo)

No, either the list has to be complete or the criteria for inclusion havbe to be externally sourced. I don't see any middle ground, and it obviously cannot be complete. Greg Locock (talk) 22:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I see plenty of middle ground. There are many lists of electric cars on the web. Just reference one of them. Here is one for example: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarselectric2a.htm Or we can reference several of the lists out there. Seems kind of silly though. Who created the list? Just a person not too different than us. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 04:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

A list criterion that's commonly used on wikipedia is "notable" in the WP sense; that is, list items that have articles about them. I don't see a problem in the current case, though; the criterion "currently available" seems perfectly reasonable, whether or not someone else has used it. Where does this idea come from that a list must be based on a sourced criterion? And what do you mean by "has to be complete"? Who can decide when it is complete enough? Dicklyon (talk) 06:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

You might want to check "List of Supercars" for my prior history there. Basically lists are unworkable unless defined by a criterion that is well supported by WP:RS,- they are hard to maintain, usually unreferenced, and subjective, boring and incomplete. Some lists have a purpose, but a shopping list of EVs looks like a total bore to me. Cats are a better solution, I am told. Incidentally, why not ask the original editor what they meant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greglocock (talk • contribs) 10:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't figure out what felines had to do with the discussion - perhaps you meant categories? The main advantage of a list over a Category:Production electric vehicles, is that you can add interesting details such as range, cost, and performance, and sort on each column. By the way, any reason the Tesla Roadster isn't on the list? 199.125.109.129 (talk) 07:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Grins, well that kind of makes my point. Every new electric car that comes out should go on the list, pushing interesting content off the bottom of the page. Oh well, looks like people want it, let's give it a month. Greg Locock (talk) 11:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is there no mention that electric cars can recover their kinetic energy? Considering that is effectively a built-in feature of EVs, it seems unfair to not include it the above comparison. Also, ICE-based engines achieve their maximum efficiency moving along the highway at constant load and RPM. I'm quite sure that EVs are much more efficient at variable load and RPM than ICEs. Lastly, EVs are powered by a combination of renewable and non-renewable sources. Of the non-renewable sources, they shouldn't cause much more consumption because they would charge at night, when coal plants and still going full-speed but power demand is much lower and therefore wasted. This section is over simplifying the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.70.163.126 (talk) 06:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Feel the power

"powered from sustainable electricity sources (e.g. solar energy)"? Who says terrestrial solar is "sustainable"? (What does that mean, anyhow? I've yet to see it quantified.) Is terrestrial solar to be used for nothing else? Are EVs to use nothing else? How's that to be enforced? Or are the charging stations going to be marked "solar"? This is another example of green zealotry: make it look as good as possible & ignore the flaws. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 10:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The sentence reads "CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions are minimal for electric cars powered from sustainable electricity sources." It seems clear enough here that sustainable means not involving the burning of fossil fuels or other fuels that are not "farmed" in some sense. Perhaps there's a more explicit or clearer way to say it? There's nothing in this sentence that suggests any policy, exclusivity, enforcement, etc., nor that applies to electric cars powered by electricity from fossil fuels; the previous sentenced does comment on electricity from other sources already. Want to improve it? There are better ways than carping at it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Price in vehicles list table

To be of any use this needs also to specify the market where that price is available, and give a reference. The Tesla Roadster is listed at $100,000, in the UK it is £92,000 (about $170,000 today). The REVA is listed at $15,000, in the UK it is about £10,000 ($18,500). If we say it is the U.S. market, then we'll need a column for each other market. What is the solution - should we delete this column altogether? -- de Facto (talk). 12:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

There being no apparent views, one way or the other on this, I removed the prices from the lists. -- de Facto (talk). 09:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Split of 'Currently available electric cars' list

The list has been split into two sections: "Low speed" and "Expressway capable". Are these generally and consistently internationally used definitions? If they are, we need to reference them and explain the qualifying factors. If they aren't, and the categorisation of individual cars cannot be referenced, then I think we need to re-combine the lists into one. An arbitrary editor decision as to whether a car belongs in one list or the other (the Buddy being "Expressway capable" for example) is surely original research. -- de Facto (talk). 09:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The minimum speed on many US interstates is 45 mph. Any car that can not meet that speed is clearly not freeway capable. You can't mix in the NEVs with the Tesla. It just doesn't make any sense. Call them whatever you wish, but keep them separate. The only real difference is their speed - one group goes over 45 mph, the other less. Oh, and you can't use NEV, because that is a stupid US only designation. I was going to use "high speed", but 130 mph is barely moving, in my opinion of what real speed is today. What is the minimum speed on the Autobahn, 60 kph (37 mph)? Since 45 mph is higher I would stick with that. 199.125.109.89 (talk) 06:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The categorisation then, is based only on which vehicles can/cannot use many U.S. interstates. That is probably not a strong enough reason to maintain those U.S. specific categories, in what should be an international article, so I favour merging the lists back into one. So long as the maximum speed is listed, then those who are interested in knowing which ones can be used on their local interstate will have enough information to judge that for themselves. -- de Facto (talk). 08:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No, it is based on which can use the Autobahn, in Germany, as well as those that can use US interstates. And honestly, putting both in the same table would be like putting electric cars in with golf carts or barbie cars. They are massively different types of vehicles, the low speed ones for city use and the normal car type ones for highway use. 199.125.109.129 (talk) 04:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I think de Facto's point is not that there's not a distinction to be made, but that the distinction needs to be sourced. What cutoff is used to define autobahn-capable, or whatever, and who classifies EVs into these two classes? Bring a source, or leave them all in one table if there's no source for a categorical split. Dicklyon (talk) 06:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

In the U.S. there is federal law about NEVs versus other cars. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 14:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds perfect; what's a source for that criterion? Dicklyon (talk) 15:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

They are speed limited to 25mph and don't have to be crash tested and don't have to meet a ton of other rules for regular cars. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

25 mph sets the bar too low, I think you might be better off having three sections. Golf cart wannabees (NEVs), town cars, and high speed commuter cars. Jeremy Clarkson says 60hp is the lower limit of acceptability on motorways. So I could find a citeable reference for that as a split(grins). Greg Locock (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

25 mph is a silly limit, perhaps chosen so that the centurions who drive them around won't do any damage. If I was more paranoid I would say it was chosen so that no one would want to buy them. Most of them can get hotrodded to illegally remove the speed restriction though. Many of the 25 mph ones are speed limited 35 mph ones. There is no need for three groups. Autobahn capable is very precisely defined - any vehicle capable of a sustained speed of 60 kph (37 mph). To make the category more international, 45 mph is a more reasonable cut off. The Reva is the only one that is straddling both groups. 60 hp is a lot for an electric car. I really don't think that motor size should be used as the criteria. Speed is much more important. For example, would you put an 80 hp car that could only do 15 mph in with a 60 hp one that could do 80 mph? 199.125.109.29 (talk) 02:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I merged the tables back together as there appears to be no generally acknowledged or supported speed categories. Readers can sort by speed if they desire. -- de Facto (talk). 19:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

If you read the above you will see that these are very distinctly different vehicles, it would be like mixing motor scooters with motorcycles - they are totally different animals. Besides, no one cares about the acceleration of a low speed electric car. I didn't see the point in splitting into three groups if there was only one car in the middle group, but using these groupings they are fairly evenly split. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 14:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

DeFacto has a history of unpopular edits. See prius talk page for example. I hope this group can band together like in prius and remove his often reverted edits. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 17:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No problem on my part. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 19:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Some of his edits may be unpopular, and as an owner and appreciator of 2 Prii I might disagree with them, but his point in this article remains valid, I think, which is that if we want to split a list by some criterion, we should use a criterion that has support in some source, not make up our own. Countering his argument by pointing out that he's been in a fight somewhere else doesn't help resolve anything. And as far as I can tell from Talk:Prius, there's an argument with just one guy. So it remains unclear why Daniel.Cardenas is making this suggestion here. Dicklyon (talk) 20:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the criteria certainly need to be existing and verifiable. Additionally though, I think that they either need to be relevant and applicable to the worldwide audience of this article, or if not, then presented in such a way that they can be ignored by readers for whom they have no relevance. For example, if the split is at 60 km/h in Germany, at 25 mph in the U.S., but there is no legal distinction in, say, the UK, then one table, sortable on maximum speed, allows all readers to see the data in a way which is relevant to them. -- de Facto (talk). 10:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the above little catfight. Wiki is not a popularity contest. DeFacto raised good arguments on the Prius talk page, I notice that few of his arguments were answered. I think in this instance on this page his merge is superseded by Dicklyon's approach. Greg Locock (talk) 22:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's a proposal: why not go with the distinction explained in neighborhood electric vehicle, which derives from US NTSA rulemaking. It's pretty much the same as the 40 km/hr autobahn boundary. There are many more entries for the slow half of the table at neighborhood electric vehicle if someone doesn't want it so unbalanced. We can add another split if/when we find another good sourced criterion. Dicklyon (talk) 21:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems eminently sensible. Greg Locock (talk) 22:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Looks like I was wrong about the autobahn criterion, which is 60 kph, not 40. If someone provides a source, that could be another logic split point. Dicklyon (talk) 22:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The rules in Germany though, are only relevant in Germany. For a global article we need to present the data in a way which is relevant to all readers. One way is to have one table, sortable on maximum speed. That way, those who are interested in which cars are capable of 60 km/h can easily see that. An alternative would be to have columns for region-specific qualifiers, "German autobahn capable", "U.S. expressway capable", "U.S. NEV compliant", or whatever. As a resident of a country where neither the German nor the U.S. regulations are relevant, I am not necessarily interested in having the table split along those lines. -- de Facto (talk). 10:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

And so we come full circle. One sortable list? Several lists? An infinitude of lists? A list of lists? A sortable list of lists? An unsortable list of sortable lists? F*** me dead and call me a zombie. NO LISTS. Greg Locock (talk) 10:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

More data in chart form about car batteries, motors and overall coefficient of efficiency

Hello,

I am bit newbie with all the details so I have bit questions about following electrical car components Some questions about electric car batterys: What battery is the best? And by best I mean the driving range: There is nowdays Lead-Acid, NiCd, Ni/MH, Lithium-ion, Lithium Iron Phosphate Cathode With Traditional Anode, titanate electrode material lithium-ion batteries, Sodium/Lithium mixture batteries. Then there is also some lithium ion nanowire battery, and of couse ultracapasitor such as EEstor.

I tried to find technical chart from following articles, but could not find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Improvements_to_Lithium_Ion_Battery_Technology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery http://www.revaindia.com/futec.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NanoSafe More questions about electric car motors: I have read that electric cars can use AC or DC motors eaven supramotors are used. What is the best solution with the very best coefficient of efficiency? I did not find anything from wikipedia with "" elecric car motor"" search :/.

From Reva is said:The latest model now uses AC rather than DC motors which increases the top speed by nearly 10 km/h.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor http://www.pinktentacle.com/2008/06/superconductor-electric-vehicle/

I hope that in the article would be more defined the key components technical data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.28.144.2 (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello Again :),

Thanks about the add of tech. specs -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle#Technology though I feel that more detail info about Energy cofficient and components would be welcomed. When some one is planning to buy electric car at least at basic level it would be extra good to have Old/New component list somewhere -> E-motors and batteries, similar things as mentioned here-> http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-21.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.140.250.192 (talk) 08:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

EV CO2 Emissions

In the "CO2 Emissions" section of the article, it says that "currently a diesel is better than an EV", and that didn't seem right to me, and it seemed to contradict the paragraph above it. Because of that, I decided to do a bit of research, which consists of the following, and my extrapolations (the parts in bold are what I directly copied from my sources):

CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon (http://www.epa.gov/OMS/climate/420f05001.htm)

US electricity production makes 2300 Tg of CO2 emissions

(http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/emissions/co2_human.html#fossil)

US Electricity - production: 4.062 trillion kWh (2005)

(https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html)

Therefore CO2 emissions per KWh are:

(2300 Tg / 4,062 TWh) * 1000 or (2,300,000,000,000,000 g / 4,062,000,000,000,000 Wh) * 1000

~ 0.566223535 grams of CO2 per Wh * 1000

≈ 566.22 g of CO2 per KWh

≈ .566 kg per KWh

≈ 1.25 lbs. of CO2 per KWh

So

A diesel vehicle at, say, 40 mpg emits 22 lbs of CO2 every 40 miles

To travel 40 miles, an ev1 (which travels at .07 kWh per km according to The Electric Car, page 130) would use

0.105 kWh / mile -> 4.2 kWh in 40 miles

And therefore "emits"

4.2 * 1.25 lbs CO2 per kWh -> 5.232 pounds of CO2 in 40 miles

Which would seem to go against what it says in the paragraph that has all of the "citation needed"s.

Is this of a quality to go in the article, or is it too much of "original research"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.167.1 (talk) 04:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately (a) you have made a very big mistake somewhere in your diesel calc and (b) it is OR. Greg Locock (talk) 04:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The "diesel calc" is from the EPA! Unless, of course, the EPA is wrong... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.167.1 (talk) 05:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Shrugs, OK, the mistake must be elsewhere then. Ah, yes, your average CO2 per kWh is wrong by a factor of 2. http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html#electric Either way, your conclusions are strange. At the very least you are also ignoring battery efficiency, charging efficiency, and 70 Wh/km is not for a vehicle with the same capabilities as a 40mpg diesel car. Greg Locock (talk) 06:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Eg Chev Volt optimistic estimate is a range of 40 miles on 16 kWh, ie 400 Wh/mile, or 240 Wh/km, three times your figure. That still ignores charging and battery efficiency. Even the 2 seater EV1 "only" managed around 150 Wh/km in practice, I doubt you'll see a realistic EV that beats that. Incidentally I am not anti EV, but I really dislike agenda pushing distortions.Greg Locock (talk) 06:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Terribly sorry, it wasn't an "agenda pushing distortion", it was just a calculative error. Also, the EV1 .07 kWh/km was what was in my book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.167.1 (talk) 14:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

EV CO2 emissions part 2

"The use of solar, wind, nuclear electric generation along with carbon capture for fossil fuel powered plants means that in the long run,"

wp:crystalball

" electric vehicles will produce less carbon dioxide over their life time since it is impractical to reduce carbon dioxide at the tailpipe of diesel/bio fueled cars."

but 100% bio fuelled cars are inherently carbon neutral, so their tailpipe co2 emissions don't matter.

" Based on GREET simulations, electric cars can achieve up to 100% reductions" not over their lifetime.

" with renewables electric generation vs 77% will B100 (100% bio-diesel car). Of course at present only 32% reductions of carbon dioxide is available for electric cars with current US Grid due to heavy fossil fuel use and inefficiencies. "

That sounds more like it. So the reality is that a B100 car will show 77% reductions, an EV 32 %. I would like to congartulate the editor for succesfully confusing the issue. I'll check the references to see if GREET are as confused.

Greg Locock (talk) 04:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

As a quick reply:
As today, I believe pretending 100% biodisel is just as irrealistic as pretending 100% renewables or 100% EVs or 100% bio-cars. Given that, I am not aware of the exact meanings involved but keep in mind that the fact that biodisel emissions are 100% "fast cycle carbon" (note: CARBON - and so they are carbon-neutral worldwide) doesn't magically mean their CO2 is good in a city scale and they don't emit other stuff. I feel the comparison falls a bit short in that regard, reducing emissions isn't just about an emission benefit, it's also about air quality. In that sense, it doesn't really matter whatever the CO2 of your city is "slow" or "fast".
Now, about the two references (43, 44): http://www.nesea.org/transportation/info/documents/Transportation_Climate_Change.pdf (reference 43)

“ all greenhouse gas emissions

from the full fuel cycle (including fuel extraction or production, refining, transport, and use (including particulates from tire and brake wear) are used.

”

“ - 100 Electric car (renewable source)

- 77 B100 (100% biodiesel)

”

Both figures are relatively realistic for only small sets of cars and anyway the key point is likely to be the particulate and distribution issue.

I believe reference (43) is quite accurate and clear in describing how its model works.
It'll take a while before I can point out the other key points in reference (44) as it's just a dump of all the publications.
I encourage you in looking for the accurate reference, it's good to do so every once in a while and providing some more accurate links will surely be a good thing.
MaxDZ8 talk 13:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Is less than 10 min charging possible->?? Fast battery charging Altair Nanosafe, Epyon, A123 and EEstore

Hello,

Does anyone one wich is the most fast way to charge batteries? Epyon, Altair Nanosafe, A123 or EEstore. From all is said that quick charging is possible. What is in numbers this mentioned Quick charging?

If you have a 16 kWh battery and you want to charge it in 10 minutes then you'll need 100 kW of electrical supply - about the same as 30-50 houses. You'll also need electronics able to handle those very high currents, which will be very expensive. Much better to physically swap batteries if you need a fast charge. Greg Locock (talk) 00:39, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

So you're saying a typical house is only good for 2-3 kW? That wouldn't even run two compact 1600 W hair dryers. I'm pretty sure I can run a hair dryer, electric oven, coffee maker, toaster, microwave, and pool pump all at once. I've got lots of 20A circuits, but don't know what my total load limit is. Perhaps 100A? That would be 12 kW, within a factor of 8 of what you'd need for a 10-minute charge; it wouldn't be hard for a service station to get an order of magnitude more, or to charge at home in a couple of hours. Ah, a quick search shows that most house have 100 Amp or 200 Amp service. So you could charge it in 40 minutes at 200 Amp. Or get 4 houses... Dicklyon (talk) 05:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but the supply to the street can't give the full fused capacity to all the houses at once. I suggets you do some research. For instance, my house uses at most 2000 kWh in 3 months, so that is an AVERAGE draw of just less than 1 kW. Sure, the main fuse is 100A, or 24 kW, but if I and my neighbour tried to use that at the same time I doubt we'd succeed. The peak I actually use is probably around 7 kW. I don't actually know what the street wiring is good for, but I am 100% certain that it is not anything like the fuzed capacity*the number of houses. You could contact your local utility and find out, I'm sure they'll be happy to quote you for a 100 kW supply.Greg Locock (talk) 05:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that in the future the 10 minutes charging may expode bulbs if everyone are doing it at the same time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.28.144.2 (talk) 09:21, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

No, just a brownout. Like I say, ring em up, publish your results. I'm guessing about $30000.Greg Locock (talk) 10:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering also about this Firefly composite battery technology-> Is is better than Nanosafe and all the rest litium batteries?? http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=89 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.140.250.192 (talk) 15:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The Beijing electric buses were designed to have the batteries replaced in 5 minutes in order to allow 24 hour operation, and from an engineering standpoint that is a much more reasonable approach than trying to charge a battery that quickly. Should I say it is just plain stupid? Anyway, I believe that according to the article (Electric car) Nissan developed replaceable batteries way back in 1947 for their electric car. 199.125.109.98 (talk) 19:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

May I say that that is actually GREAT idea to have quick rechargable battery that can be replaced quickly too. 10 min with charging, if you are in horry you can change the battery in less than 5 minutes. I quess you were meaning that?