Talk:Evanescence

Talk page archived

Discussions from January 2008 through July 2008 have been archived. Let the new, and hopefully constructive, discussion begin below. --Brownings (talk) 22:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

outoftheshadows.com

this domain doesn't exist anymore... -- Shatterzer0 (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, very odd, it worked when I originally tried it, but I might have had a cached version. Irregardless, just because a site disappears, doesn't mean the citation is any less valid. If a replacement can be found, then certainly, replace it, but we don't delete references just because the site or article or whatever disappeared. We'd lose a significant number of citations if that were the case, across Wikipedia. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 03:47, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

And if an external link is technically "dead", then it should be tagged as such using the {{dead link}} template. See Wikipedia:Dead external links and Wikipedia:Citing sources#What to do when a reference link "goes dead". Sure you can discuss it on this talk page, but it will help all those who check references if the link is tagged as dead so that they know ahead of time to try and find either an archived version of the page or an alternative source (without needing to know about the discussion on the talk page). So please just leave the link tagged as dead where it is for now and move on. Anyway... I'm going to run the Checklinks tool (here) to see if there are any more dead links. --Lightsup55 ( T | C ) 10:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never got the site to work. Of course I thought it was perhaps it was developed for Internet Explorer and I always tried with Firefox. Anyway, perhaps we can find a Google cached version of the page to use as the linked reference? --Brownings (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The page used to work, and I recall reading it. It appears the page had a robots.txt query exclusion, so it won't show up at archive sites that recognize robots.txt. However, there wasn't much there. Lee was involved with the "Out of the Shadows" campaign about epilepsy, and the site included a brief bio saying, among other things, "Lee, a classically trained pianist, founded Evanescence in 1995 and by the late 90's the group had released its major-label debut, Fallen..." I didn't think the page was particularly credible months ago [1] and it could just as well go now. Gimmetrow 15:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Replying to you both: Brownings, it is better to leave the dead link there, than link to a Google cache, since it too will disappear after only a week or two (plus, I looked for one, and the cached page is the same as the dead link...points to the generic page bit). Gimmetrow, it could certainly "just as well go now", but only if you have something to replace it with. Theoretically at least, that page and the information on it was built with input from Lee, so I would hope it reflects accurate information. I'm kicking myself for not using Webcitation.org to archive it...I thought for sure that I had. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 00:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Theoretically, yes, it should have been reviewed by Lee, and in the absence of any other information one could argue it's better than nothing. However, such bios are often written by someone on staff and may or may not be particularly reliable. Given what it says about Fallen, does it really seem all that accurate? Gimmetrow 16:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Three options, then. 1) Keep the reference at face value, 2) Keep date as unreferenced (1995 or 1998, which do you use?), 3) Remove founding dates. Take your pick. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 05:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The lead could be written to correspond to the main text "...founded in Little Rock, Arkansas by singer/pianist Amy Lee and guitarist Ben Moody after their 1994 meeting." Gimmetrow 02:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Genre removal

Good luck Nazzzz with that strong warning. We'll see how long till the troll come back and start adding random links in the genre areas. The best bet is just to remove it completely, then weather out the storm till they give up. However, we'll see how your approach works. --Brownings (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't fully agree with the Alternative metal tag, but hey, if it will give this page a break from another genre war then go for it.Emo777 (talk) 14:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Will someone provide a source to the claim that they are in the "alternative metal" genre? I dont care if I get a warning, if I dont see a source I will change it myself WITH a source. Coiler fan (talk) 04:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

And here we go again, I don't agree with it either, but there should be sources that say they are alternative metal, i've seen them. Emo777 (talk) 07:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I almost forgot, don't remove the genre without having a discussion, let's try and avoid another genre war, at least inform someone 1st.Emo777 (talk) 07:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually there's already a source for alternative metal under the Style section (last sentence of forst paragraph). But I don't know if the source needs to be cited twice for the same thing in the same article but if it'll prevent a mistaken genre edit war, citing it twice shouldn't hurt. Anyway this is currently the source used in the article for alternative metal. But I did find other sources on alternative metal which could also be used; aol.com, Allmusic, Billboard.com, metrotimes.com. AngelOfSadness talk 12:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Citing a source in the lead paragraph is unnecessary, so long as it is sourced elsewhere in the article. The lead is intended to be a summary of the whole article, making duplicate sourcing there unnecessary. If it is change, just revert and move on. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 18:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we need to cite it twice, but I think it would be a good idea to have more than one source that says they're Alternative Metal, that way people can't argue that the one source isn't enough, and beleave me some will, I see it in other parts of wikipedia all the time. So yeah, their might be more than one source, but last I checked there was only one saying they were alt-metal. Emo777 (talk) 07:10, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if you can find a second or third source, that would be fantastic. Like with alt rock, alt metal is being used because it is a generic genre, and given the contentious nature of this, generic is the best answer right now. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 16:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I will add my voice to any argument that the alternative metal tag be removed. Evanescence isn't, and never has been, a heavy metal band. Despite what some might think, alternative metal is at the core a heavy metal genre, it's just metal that's playing in an alternative manner, not, as so many seem to think, alternative rock with some metal tones or elements, and Evanescence do not meet this requirement. They are alternative rock with some modern gothic overtones and heavily-tuned chords. This is not a criticism, nor is it elitism, just simple statement of fact.

As it is, I won't make any attempt to change it, because it does seem there are generally reliable sources (note: Not allmusic) citing it, and unfortunately wikipedia's rules state that no ammount of logic or reason can overcome a handful of sources. That's just the way it is. But there's my 2 pence on the matter. Prophaniti (talk) 12:41, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I don't consider them alt-metal either, but I also don't consider them alt-rock, personally I consider them gothic rock. But that's why alt-metal is up there, we all say they're something different and only alt-metal is properly Sourced. Besides, I've never even seen a source that call them alt-rock. Leave alt-metal. Emo777 (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, will this weblink count as a relible source? I haven't gotten to look at it, I just found it on the internet somewhere, it says they're alt-metal, but I don't know if it's a good source or not: http://www.mp3.com/tags/alternative+metal/ Emo777 (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

MP3.com isn't a reliable source, as far as I'm aware. It's just a site that sells music, like amazon. I could be wrong of course. And aye, as I say I shan't try changing the genre, and with them on haitus it's not likely to change anytime soon. Ah well, can't win 'em all. Prophaniti (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what genre they fall under, but alot of people seem to peg them as 'gothic metal'. While I'm not too sure on that either, does anyone have an actual sorce for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xanthic-Ztk (talk • contribs) 02:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

There is already a mention of gothic metal in the Style section. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 02:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I know how big a debate this causes, but my personal opinion is that they are an alternative metal band. Fallen was a pop-rock album in my opinion, yes, but the Open Door, with its sweeping atmostpheric techniques, its simple guitar chords (which points to alternative) and its depth and feelings is what I'd call alternative metal. Lacuna Coil is progressive metal. Within Temptation is symphonic metal. Evanescence is alternative metal. Just my opinion. When will they begin working on a third studio album? User:Borr29 —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC).

Well, the "genre" section was removed from the template per here. I think saying "American al-metal band" is better if there is no genre in the infobox.--Nazzzz (talk) 12:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that, I mean, it's controversal as it is. Why not just keep it the way that it was and put all of the genres in the style section? Emo777 (talk) 20:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

More news on the Narnia track

this artcile: [2] says that Evanescence WAS in fact approached about the song, two conflicting articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.212.50 (talk) 15:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

This is indeed a very odd situation...we have articles that go both ways, and say two things. I'd say the article reflects this conundrum fairly well as it is, but I'll go back and try to rewrite to improve the wording. Thanks for the link! — Huntster (t • @ • c) 11:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

band formation year

Could someone please try to find a reliable source that tells what year Evanescence was formed. It previously said 1994, but now it says 1995...I don't know which is right and therefore, I need help looking.

Alice1869 (talk) 07:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)alice1869

As far as I can remember, it has never said 1994. That year is when Lee and Moody first met. The article did previously say 1998, which I still believe to be correct, but the only source that could be found stated 1995. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 17:27, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Ooops sorry about that. I put that I thought it said 1994, but now I remember that it did say 1998. But I still do need to know when they really formed. Thanks.Alice1869 (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)Alice1869

I found these 2 weblinks, the first was something on youtube.com, I think it was a interview, but I didn't get to watch it all (I currently have Dial-Up), it said they formed in 1995. The secound doesn't give a date but it says they started at the end of the 90s. I don't know if these are valid, but they're all I could find, sorry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFgKzUEL9Ww & http://www.answers.com/topic/evanescence-2 Emo777 (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the first link, most definitely not valid, as it is just a comment saying 1995. For the second, Answers.com really isn't considered reliable, as it isn't terribly different from Wikipedia...don't think they use experts for their material. Also, it just says late-90s, so isn't really defined. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 19:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Sorry, those are the best things I could find that said there date on it, I thought the youtube vid would be an interview, guess not, sorry, I have a slow connection for the time being so I couldn't watch it. If I see anything i'll let you know. Emo777 (talk) 07:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Post-Grunge

Evanescence sounds post-grunge. One of Amy's inspirations is nirvana. Shouldnt they also be Post-grunge along with alternative metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nardulli22 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because you believe they sound a certain way doesn't mean it should be listed here (even if your assessment is correct). You will need to find a valid source which says they are post-grunge. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 04:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Featured article nomination

It's been a few months since we discussed nominating this article again for Featured Article status. While we all seemed to agree to nominate, no one pulled the trigger. Now the the genre war has seemed to have settled down a bit, I figured it would be a good time to give it a shot. Wish us luck as we push for the front page! --Brownings (talk) 03:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I removed the nom because it was incompletely submitted; please let me know (per FAC instructions, "Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination.") if Huntster (talk · contribs) agrees the article is ready, and if you need help to correctly submit the nomination. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:27, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This article still needs some things addressed before it's really ready for FAC. I think there ought to be a section on themes, and a few questionable references justified or replaced. (A couple references are also dead links, which is separate from reliability questions.) Gimmetrow 03:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer if some well-versed copyeditors gave this a thorough cleaning. My recent experience at peer review has indicated I'm not competent at identifying such issues. I certainly don't own this article (heck, I've mostly taken a backseat and just do cleanup duty these days), however, it still feels like the genre issue is a bit incomplete for FA. To Gimmetrow, my experience here has been that despite Evanescence's fairly high profile, not a lot has been said about issues like Themes or Genres, or even much of their history. This seems to be one of those bands that get the "hey, they are superstars, go see them in concert" treatment in the press, rather than a more detailed reviewing. Both Lee and Moody seem to prescribe to "letting their music speak for them" mindset, and are rather private. Despite lots being said and published, there just doesn't appear to be much quality press to draw from. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 04:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

the open door double platinum

According to this artical the open door is double platinum. Just thought i would let you all know

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=106660

thanks.. 121.72.236.247 (talk) 08:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)