Talk:Bulgarians

Bulgaria B‑class Top‑importance

	Bulgaria portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bulgaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bulgaria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BulgariaWikipedia:WikiProject BulgariaTemplate:WikiProject BulgariaBulgaria articles
B	This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ethnic groups B‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

High

This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:

Here are some open WikiProject Ethnic groups tasks:

Meta-tasks:
- Place the {{Ethnic groups}} template on the talk page of articles within the scope of this project.
- Resolve the disparity in importance rankings among different ethnic groups
Articles about ethnic groups that currently have issues needing resolution:
Start an article:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Article requests

Feel free to edit this list or discuss these tasks.

Number of Bulgarians

The total number of Bulgarians according to the quoted and recognized sources is over 10 million, rather than 8 mln. The calculations were wrong-therefore I edited the article with the correct number. Furtermore 8 mln is unrealistically low number, having in mind that in 1989, only in Bulgaria lived 9 mln people(since then at least 1,5 mln have emigrated in the US, EU, Australia, etc.) Moreover, the Bulgarian disapora is historically large due to lost territories to neighbours and large waves of immigrations during the 18-20th century. Only in Ukraine, people of Bulgarian descent are at least 500 000, in Moldova 100 000, etc. Therefore, even though the realistic number is much higher than 10 mln, we should accept that number, since that is verifiable, according to all sources quoted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.1.125 (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, provide this quoted and recognized sources about 10,000,000 Bulgarians. If no, I will revert the number back to the previous simple calculation. Jingby (talk) 15:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, sum up the number of Bulgarians country by country and you would find that calculations add up to 10 mln. By "quoted and verified sources" I meant the ones, already recognized in the article. Simply sum up and you would see that it adds to 10 mln, rather than 8 mln. In addition, the mirror articles about Bulgarians in the Finnish and Lithuanian wiki projects quote number of Bulgarians between 10 and 11 mln people. In addition, in the articles for Bulgarian language many of the different wikipedia projects, quote the number of Bularian speakers as 11-12 mln.

Last but not least, in the article for Greece it shows 16 mln people (highly overestimated number) without any reference. Romanians claim that they are 29 mln including Moldovans without reference. Why such double standards and why would you not modify the article for Greeks and Romanians asking for a source? Why you would want to put a lower number than the real one, even though the calculations on the site add up to 10 mln?

ps the actual number is much higher, but let us stick us to the alredy verified sources. ps2 the number as it is now and the Foreign Ministry Data only refers to people born on the territory of Bulgaria and their descendants. Thus excluding large Bulgarian origin populations in neighbouring countries. But even such narrower concept of "Bulgarian" adds up to 10 mln, rather than 8mln. Therefore, instead of threats, let us better take calculators.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Lozhani buditel (talk • contribs) 15:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lozhani buditel (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jingiby, it seems like you just edit the information not because you are concerned wth obejectivity, but out of personal motives. Yes, it is not precisely 10 mln -it adds up to 9.600 000, but as you perfectly well know-the number here is a low estimate and it does not include all 202 countries in the world. Wikipedia is not pure mathematics and not pure science. Sometimes logic is as importany as figures and "sources". And I am doing a PhD Politics in England and perfectly well know what objectivity and verifiability stands out for. So I am not here to waist my time. Therefore 10 mln is a realistic (although still a very low estimate) number of Bulgarians around the world. Please, do not put your ego about logic and objectivity and leave the number intact.

Our nation is daing. This is the truth. Stop with the phantasy. Jingby (talk)

Well it seems you want to help it d(AI) die much sooner than it happens. And what kind of argument is that? I am far from PHantasy (fantasy), since I am very down to Earth and objectivity is my aim. I am doing a PhD Politics in England and trust me-what you are doing to change numbers just to suit your calculations for lesser number of Bulgarians and prove your ego is far from being of any academic or scentific worth. Therefore stop your alterations.Lozhani buditel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.126.1.125 (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jingby, i don`t know which nation is dying, but first educate yourself and then write in EN Wikipedia. Even so, this is not demographic research in Bulgaria, but in whole the world. So stop reversing, i`ll ask for help from administrators, because you are absolute vandal! Подпоручикъ (talk) 21:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the numbers of Bulgarians are currently shrinking or not has nothing to do with the statistical data backed by reliable sources. It is unacceptbale to forge the statictics to suit someones idea of a dying or a growing nation. If the summary of the most resent statistics shows more than 10 milion Bulgarians living around the globe then that is the number to be shown in Wikipedia. If in a few years a new data shows 9 million or less then it will be changed to that number. For now, lets leave it as it is - over 10 million. Internedko (talk) 22:03, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jingby, it may sound like a cliché, but Bulgaria has always been one of the most influential pathways between the East and the West. Today, the NATO and EU membership, followed by the latest economic developments and the large investments in Bulgaria in its energy sector, are the hallmarks that guarantee peace and security in South-Eastern Europe, the challenging Caspian-Black Sea region and even the Middle-East. Only ignorant fools may think that this great nation is dying. Bulgaria is becoming a rich nation and this is a fact.

Many data forced by certain circles pertaining the Bulgarian population are biased. The claims that the total number of Bulgarians around the world is less than 9 millions is not logically and statistically correct. Only the number of post-1990 emigrants is around 1.5 million. Together with the descendants of the Macedono-Bulgarian emigrants of the World Wars at the beginning of the XX century, who now live in the USA, Canada and Australia, this may sum up to at least 2 millions. We must also take into account the inevitable process of unfolding the truth about the Macedonian Bulgarians, whose number is around 1.3 millions in the Republic of Macedonia. So, there are at least 12 million Bulgarians in Bulgaria, Macedonia, USA, Canada and Australia.

The overall well-being in the Bulgarian society stimulates the growth of the population and it will be significantly increased in the next decade. On the other hand, the talented people who left Bulgaria, dispersed all over the developed countries, will provide a solid background for further political and diplomatic support for their homeland, through their various professional orientations and the active involvement in the scientific and cultural life of the societies where they live.

As a Macedonian Bulgarian, born and living in the Republic of Macedonia, I would ask you Jingby to stop altering the numbers and respect the opinions of all other Wikipedians. Relativefrequency (talk) 22:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prior discussion

The older discussion pages can be found at Talk:Bulgarian people. Todor →Bozhinov 13:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Origin

I am going to restore the referenced version in the chapter origin. Jingby (talk) 07:41, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Why was referenced text deleted? I do not understand this guy. And whithout any explaination. If any reliable reasons will be provided I am going to restore the referenced version again. Please, provide any reference or sourse that Bulgarians are from Central European Anthropological type, not Mediterraneans. Please, provide any reference that Bulgarians are related with Hungarians. Why were this text and the added refferences deleted?[reply]

.....The Bulgarians also have some similarities with other Mediterranean populations such as Armenians, Italians, Anatolians, Cretans and Sardinians....[1] [2]Jingby (talk) 16:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please, explain your original research or it will be reverted again as vandalism. Jingby (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Bulgarian origin section

I don't really get this section! This section only presents Bulgarians as a Mediterranean people when truly they have other backgrounds like Nordic and Alpine as well. The sources even states that they have other backgrpounds as well but when other backgrounds are added someone deletes it and makes the section a whole mediterranean orientated paragraph. I think this is stupid and corrupt. Before I have used the first source in the paragraph explaining about the various anthropological background of the Bulgarians but it was soon deleted and I was told it was not valid which is a lie. Bulgarian anthropogical type is not Mediterranean only, they have other backgrounds as well. Stop being Mediterranean orientated.--Ivailo82 (talk) 21:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is written "predominantly Mediterranean" and also "with some additional influences". Jingby (talk) 07:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The source which explains about The Bulgarians also have some similarities with other Mediterranean populations such as Armenians, Italians, Anatolians, Cretans and Sardinians.... is not valid and it is corrupt. Basically meaning that it isn't a proper source in the internet.--Ivailo82 (talk) 16:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And anyway I don't think that passage is true because the Bulgarians don't have similarities with those people. It's like saying that the Germans have similarities with the Algerians or the Maltese.--Ivailo82 (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you think has nothing to do with the text. Please, do not remove reliable, referenced, scientific information. Jingby (talk) 12:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the source as it repeats Mediterranean again and again. Only one source is enough. The small paragraph repeats Mediterranean 3 times which is stupid. --Ivailo82 (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

800,000 Bulgarians in Greece!

The cited ref is a deadlink. Could someone please provide an accurate no (roughly obviously). I could maybe believe that number if it were for Albanians but there is no way there are that many Bulgarians in Greece. It would be nice if it were true though. :-)--Xenovatis (talk) 20:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stop to back 10 millions to 8 millions, if you have studied mathematics at school you should count that Regions with significant bulgarian populations gave + 10 million. So stop returning and breaking the 3TR rule! Подпоручикъ (talk) 20:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That certainly wasn't me. Now how about answering the question I posed?--Xenovatis (talk) 16:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Besides there's a greek saying:ΟΥΚ ΕΝ ΤΟ ΠΟΛΛΩ ΤΟ ΕΥ ΑΛΛΑ ΕΝ ΤΩ ΕΥ ΤΟ ΠΟΛΥ. That is the good is not with the much but the much with the good. Inflating or deflating the numbers is meaningless. --Xenovatis (talk) 16:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are some researches calculating that still existing slavonians (including pomak) in Western Thrace and Aegean Macedonia count some 2-300 000 people. I didn`t edited the article, so you shouldn`t ask me at all. Подпоручикъ (talk) 21:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The population in Turkey

Does this 480,000 include the 300,000 (or so) ethnic Turks who left bulgaria in 1989? If so- a footnote should be added stating this or otherwise the figure should just be removed. I will look into this further if there is no reply... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.147.222 (talk) 01:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Falsification of numbers

I'm going to try and assume good faith on the part of registered users and blame only the anons for blatantly falsifying the number of Bulgarians in Australia and Germany, and the total. I'm sure that numbers for many of the other countries have been grossly inflated but I don't have time to go fix everything. Would anybody who gives a hoot like to try it? Maybe then a realistic total can be calculated... Balkan Fever 02:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To the anonimous POV - PUSHER: are 150 000 000 enough? Jingby (talk) 10:53, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the figure for Turkey are also wrong. and if you look at the article Bulgarians in Turkey it basically talks about Turkish people from bulgaria in Turkey! These all have to be corrected.Turco85 (talk) 15:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics section

The geneticts section needs improvement. Carleon Coon's anthropological theories aren't based on Genetics. Secondly, from that HLA paper about Chuvash Also according to 21th century studies of their DNA data, the genetic background of the Bulgarians has classical eastern Mediterranean composition. The study only 5 or so HLA loci to come up with some bizarre conclusions which groups Bulgarians with Morrocans, Manchurains and Iranians, populations which clearly have nothing to do with each other, and never have. Secondly, how does it conclude that Bulgarians are "Mediterranean" genetically, There are no genes which cause the disease called "Mediterranean", What defines a Meditteranean? The study certainly doesn't define what they mean by Mediterranean. There are so many better studies we can use than this one Hxseek (talk) 15:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarians are not Mediterranean, they have nothing to do with the Mediterranean world.--D Yankov (talk) 16:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]