Talk:Crystalis

Crystalis Prototype ROM Image!?

A prototype ROM image of Crystalis is on the net. There are black lines everywhere because the tiles don't line up properly or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.224.229.18 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 13 September 2006

Things that need to be improved in the article

We need to

1. add sources
2. add screenshots
3. add characters

Can anyone else think of anything else that would be improtant to place in here. --ZeWrestler ^Talk 07:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

-- Kahnadex 19:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC) I added screenshots for spells + characters. There are of course gaps but I think it works as a good stub. I also uploaded a high-res scan of the box

Merge Overview and Gameplay sections?

I think that they could go together, under overview.--Havermayer 20:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

GA

Is this almost ready for GA? Maybe a devolpment section, something on audio and a few more refs, but it's close.--Clyde Miller 20:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I've searched, but I couldn't find anything about the development of the game on the net. I noticed in the Magazine Project that issue 12 of Nintendo Power contains a preview on the game (probably very helpful) and issue 14 has the game featured. I couldn't see anybody's name next to these issues, but if someone does have access to a copy it would very useful if they could either type up the articles or scan them in. Timkovski 21:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Well InShaneee is at the bottom of the Nintendo Power, so you could try them, or you could look in the history and painstakingly find who added it. I'll take a look myself at some websites.--Clyde Miller 05:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything either. I didn't think so after I realized that there is nothing on the net about NES games. I have an NES game as a GA candadiate right now, and it doesn't have a development section either.--Clyde Miller 05:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

After much painstaking research through the history section of the Magazine Project, I discovered that it was User:Zeality who added the issues in questions, I'll leave a message on his talk page about it. Timkovski 17:17, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Super kudos to you. Good luck.--Clyde Miller 20:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. You might watch out. Someone added a ton of game guide content that needs to be removed. I'll remove it if you don't want to be bad cop. You could also turn it into prose, relate it, minimize images, and reference it, but I don't think the content is supposed to be the article.--Clyde Miller 20:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that was me. I just wanted to add content I felt was relevant; It could probably be massaged into usable content (it is rather sloppy as is) but I think for sure the characters are relevant. --Kahnadex 23:32, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't really comment on the relevancy of the sections (having never played the game), but it seems like a charecters and bosses have a place somewhere here (probably in gameplay). However, only one or two images are needed, just to give the reader a sense of the in-game bosses and gameplay, and the rest can go. The section also needs to be written in prose format with some refs, and the remaining images need fair use rationales.--Clyde Miller 23:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Rolled back --Kahnadex 00:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

You didn't need to revert it all, just integrate it. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to scare you off. I'm going to add a section under story that is characters, and I urge you to readd your information under that heading (as well as a couple images).--Clyde Miller 00:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Re-added some pictures along with a decent stab at character description.--Kahnadex 01:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Good Article - Round 2

With myself and others have contributed, I think the article is very clean and ready for GA. If you disagree, reply tot his with any reasons - Kahnadex 06:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Date?

In the article, it states that the game takes place in 1997, but wouldn't that instead be the date the world ended, and the game takes place a hundred years later? That seems to make a bit more sense...Tcgiant 21:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Wise Men + Swords

Do we need the part on the debate between Zebu and Tornel? Besides the fact that it doesn't make any difference for the NES game, it can easily be inferred that Zebu is Wind and Tornel is Fire. When rescuing the people of Leaf, Zebu comments "the wind is filled with sorrow." Plus he wants you to make a windmill work. You also rescue him after beating the General (Kebesque?), whom you defeat using wind. You rescue Tornel after Sabera, whom you beat with fire. It doesn't seem to add anything to the discussion and probably isn't correct. DajoKatti 22:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Some NES version players conjecture that Tornel is instead responsible for Wind (since he is looking for the Tornado Bracelet on Mt. Sabre) and Zebu for Fire (since the path behind his cave can only be accessed with the Sword of Fire). In addition, the Telepathy spell lists the sages in the order of Tornel, Zebu, Asina, and Kensu.

There's the text, for historical context of this discussion. Since the article is heading toward Good Article status, and there's no reference for this fairly insignificant supposition (and I don't feel like looking for one), I'll be removing it very shortly. If someone can find a reference that corroborates this theory, or even mentions this theory, then I suppose the idea can be included in the article, assuming consensus allows it. Otherwise, it's gone. --AspiringSquire 08:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

GA On Hold

Per: Good Article guidelines, I've noticed a few items of concern:

• The lead-in paragraph is pretty insubstantial. Though it handles the non-fictional part of the 'What' which a lead-in is supposed to define, it doesn't touch on any of the plot elements at all. Likewise the references to the game as a cult hit could be referenced.
• Gameplay needs a thorough rewrite. It never really explains how the game is played outside of the context of gamer subculture. Right now, it just compares Crystalis to other games instead of defining the basics of an Action RPG then leading into the particulars.
• Plot needs a bit of a reworking as well. Story mostly covers events set before the main action of the game then jumps to the end of the game whereupon the hero confronts Draygon. The second last paragraph is phrased really strangely, and the comparison to Nausicaa needs a reference. The Characters section could probably be rolled into an expanded Story
• The article could use more sources. Right now it's only got six sources, all of which are confined to the Reception portion.
• Trivia should be merged into the rest of the article somewhere.

Cheers, Lanky (YELL) 18:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Failed

Per the notes left five days ago...

• The Lead-in was improved. It might still need a bit more review, but it's a definite improvement which satisfies my concern.
• Gameplay still reads poorly and doesn't explain Crystalis in terms understandable to people unfamiliar with gaming and thus does not satisfy the concerns above.
• Plot likewise still does not satisfy the concerns mentioned above.
• Article still needs sourcing
• Trivia section still needs to be merged

Cheers, Lanky (YELL) 16:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of fan site external link

I had posted the link to a Crystalis fanpage and it was deleted. The site has a ton of info on the game. Something similar happened on the Batman video game page. Any reason for this?

Lockshaw13 00:52, 14 July 2007 (UTC)lockshaw13

What exactly is the policy on this? Fan sites seem to be quite common in other games. -anon. 24 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.187.72 (talk) 10:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

NP Coverage

NP coverage might've stopped at the swamp, but later on they did either a full two-issue walkthrough or at least a walkthrough for the second half of the game. I used to use it all the time because I could never remember where exactly to find the Power Ring. I can't check the issues cause I have literally hundreds of them, though I do remember the coverage was well past Crystalis's prime. it might've been an extended part of one of the "How Do I... ..." sections. If I ever get the big box of NPs in the attic unburied, I'll check it out and post it here, but I'm 100% sure that it exists. --Yoshiaki Abe 17:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes you are correct, I can't recall the issue numbers either, but I do know that one featured Ken Griffey Jr. on the cover. (Unfortunately I too am away from my big box on NPs) --anon. 24 March 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.187.72 (talk) 10:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

My Recent Mass-Edit and GA status (again?)

OK, now this article looks really good. I'm sorry to have removed so much from the plot section, but this is wikipedia, not gamefaqs. I think I left more than enough for everything to function, yet omitted enough for it to flow much better and read much more clearly.

I don't know if anyone needs to add something else (if you do, please don't add *too* much). If not, someone please put this up for a higher status rating. I would, but I'm still a wikipedia novice and don't know how to do so. If this article achieves a higher rating now (GA, etc.), I'd appreciate it if someone left a note on my talk page letting me know. Good luck! --Yoshiaki Abe 23:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say just cite the references and let's submit it for GA round 3 Kahnadex 19:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I've expanded the use of the existing references to cite most of the details that need it. I think the only citation that may be a bit shaky is the one next to the claim of Crystalis being a "cult classic". In that brief review, it says "While it may sometimes fall into obscurity, it still has a fanbase," from which I'm deriving that it's conveying the meaning of "cult classic" without stating it. The same reviewer also happens to directly refer to River City Ransom being a cult classic on that page, which is coincidentally mentioned in our article here.

Anyway, the article seems like it could easily attain Good Article status at this point, thanks to everyone's contributions. If it comes down to the cult classic reference being an issue, I think the statement could simply be removed.

By the way, is Pakopako the same "Pako Pako" who wrote that review on GameFAQs? :)

--AspiringSquire 21:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I've officially nominated Crystalis for Good Article status. --AspiringSquire 22:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

King of Fighters nod, what?

My question is how can Crystalis, a game made in 1990 have references to King of Fighters which was first released in 1994? I think it should be the other way around. KoF is well known for being centered around a combination of characters from many different SNK games (Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, etc). I'd think it was more of a nod towards the Athena/Psycho Soldier games then KoF. Anyone else have something to add? Lando242 00:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Crystalis nods to characters that became known for the "King of Fighters" franchise which did not start til four years after. This is true, even though it's really a nod to Psycho Soldiers, no one knows they're from that. Everyone nowadays will recognize them from KoF since that's where they're popular. I also wrote it that way so it could be worded to remove the "Trivia" section which wikipedia discourages. --Yoshiaki Abe 03:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I really hope someone can find a reference for the latter parts of this section, as mentioned in the GA Review below. This, along with the "Village of the Valley of Wind" comparison to Nausicaä and "Draygonia's Finest Four" being an attempt at a neutral translation of the phrase "shitenno" are unsourced, and they are each original research until proven otherwise. While I'm sure that each of these statements has merit, I fear that the Good Article status of Crystalis may hinge on their referencing or deletion (after I've worked on other aspects of the article). --AspiringSquire 08:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I found some references for everything except for "shitenno"; apparently the only web pages that mention the "Finest Four" of Crystalis in connection with this term or "Four Heavenly Kings" are sites that mirror Wikipedia's content. So, unfortunately, this can't be sourced and must be removed. --AspiringSquire 01:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

If anyone can think of a better heading than "References to other media" for the Nausicaä/King of Fighters section, I'd appreciate it. The only other titles that I had in mind were "King of Nausicaä" and "Nausicaä Fighters". ...Not very suitable for an encyclopedia. --AspiringSquire 06:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments:

1. A great collection of images, but I worry that there may be too many in the article to count for fair use. Obviously the two game covers have to stay, but I would suggest removing at least one, maybe to, to satisfy the fair use guidelines. I started with six images in Major League Baseball (video game), but had to remove two or three to get it to the acceptable level of GA. I would suggest, at the very least, remove the first screen shot (the introductory scene).
2. I'm worried about broadness of coverage - it seems like there should be information out there about the development of this game (after all, SNK is not small potatoes in the gaming world) and, if there is, it should definitely be information about it in the article. If there's not, then there's nothing that you can do about it, but I would check.
3. The lead still requires a lit bit of expansion (but not much). Per WP:LEAD, it needs to cover all the major points of the article, which it doesn't quite do yet (for example, there's no mention of the entire "Differences between the NES and Game Boy Color versions" section)
4. There are lot of one-two sentence paragraphs, beginning with the lead. These need to either be expanded or merged into the surrounding paragraphs, as they cannot stand alone.
5. There's far too much overlinking going on, especially in the "Plot summary" section. See WP:CONTEXT for suggestions on how to trim down.
6. A big problem with this article is the lack of in-line citations. Such little, if any, of this material can be considered to be "common knowledge," most things have the potential to be challenged and should be cited. Here's my list:

   "The "Village of the Valley of Wind" (called "Leaf" in the English translation) also may have been influenced by Miyazaki." (Plot summary) — Unless there's a source for this, this is potentially original research

   The entire "Game mechanics" section

   The entire "Characters" section

   "Similarly, the requirement of attaining a particular level in order to even harm new enemies has also been removed." (Differences between the NES and Game Boy Color versions)

   "Since Asina, Ashina, and Athena (and many others) are all possible romanizations of the original Japanese アシーナ, it is very likely that the translators missed the reference. In the King of Fighters series, Kensou is well-known for his obsession with Athena, a quality surviving even in Crystalis. Likewise, Ralph (the village elder of Joel) and his younger brother Clark are based on Ralf Jones and Clark Steel, both originally from the 1986 arcade game Ikari Warriors, and later in The King of Fighters." (The King of Fighters) — this really seems like OR without a citation.

7. Some stating the obvious might be helpful when it comes to the "Critical reception" section. For example, what is IGN and why would someone from that website be qualified to review this game? Obvious to game players and it does have a Wiki-link, but half to a full sentence of explanation couldn't hurt.
8. Reference #2 is not a reliable source, especially since you're using it to cite things that are potentially subjective and challengeable. It cites four things; it should be removed from those statements that already have a more reliable citation and should be replaced in the cases that do not. Same with the second reference from the bottom on the right hand column (it calls it #20 although it should be #21 since #10 is repeated twice for some reason...)

To allow for these changes to be made, I am putting the article on hold for a period of seven days, after which it may be failed at any time. Note also that this only my preliminary review, and I will be re-reviewing it with a second round of comments and checking to make sure that none of the links are broken after the above concerns have been addressed. Cheers, CP 21:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've looked online for development information and interviews about Crystalis, but there's nothing. At all. I doubt that there was anything printed about its development back in the day, either; behind-the-scenes game development just wasn't a hot topic in 1990 (in the U.S., at least), and I think the GBC version didn't receive much fanfare. So, other than that, how do you think the article's measuring up at this point? I think I've taken care of everything else, besides the "shitenno" statement and the images. The Tower image may not be as necessary as others, but I think it helps demonstrate the game's story-telling capacity. The article could survive without it, but I would kind of like to have input from other people before it goes. By the way, thanks for the great recommendations for improvement. --AspiringSquire 01:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I will look over it again later today, when I have time to go over it properly, and change the buttons above as appropriate. It's up to your discretion which (if any) pictures you want to remove, and I certainly suggest input from other people, especially from WP:VideoGames. That was just my subjective and personal suggestion. If there's nothing about development, that's fine, can't write about what doesn't exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul (talk • contribs) 17:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have updated the GA review for you. Cheers, CP 02:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

With the second pair of King of Fighters characters removed, it seems that the only concern left is the "Valley of Wind"; there wasn't a good online reference making the comparison to Nausicaä, so I just cited the Crystalis manual for using the phrase. If that's not adequate enough for the assertion (and I suppose it probably isn't), then the whole sentence must go. It wouldn't be any great loss anyway. --AspiringSquire 10:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Citing an instruction manual is fine, at least in this context. One last question: when did this unreferenced statement creep in? "In the King of Fighters series, Kensou is well-known for his obsession with Athena, a quality surviving even in Crystalis." (Influences from other media) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul (talk • contribs) 14:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

It was always there, as you can see within your initial review. I thought maybe the statement could get by without a reference, but it has one now, since you brought it up. As long as the reference suffices, that should be everything now, right? Thank you for taking the time to critique the article. --AspiringSquire 07:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it should be good to pass for a Good Article. Congratulations, and thank you for your hard work! Cheers, CP 20:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Shitenno debate

Hello everyone. It was I who put in the "shitenno" phrase. I got it from the God Slayer article in the Japanese version of Wikipedia. The part I saw was this one:

• ケルベスク:四天王の一人。頑強な戦士で、風の谷の人々をさらい、サブレ山でレアメタル発掘の強制労働をさせていた。
• サベラ:四天王の一人。陰険な呪術師で、一つの島の人々をゾンビに変え、悪霊島と化した。
• マドー:四天王の一人。邪悪な剣士で、シャイロンの砦を攻撃し、虐殺と壊滅に追いやる。
• カーマイン:四天王の一人。強力な魔導士で、帝国の首都に住む人々を、マインドコントロールで忠誠を誓わせている。

For those who can't read Japanese, this is a list of the "Finest Four," with a brief description. The first sentence, "四天王の一人。" says quite literally, "one of the shitenno" or "one of the Four Heavenly Kings," however you want to translate it. Even though the term "four Heavenly Kings" refers to Buddhist deities, the term was often used in Japan to refer to any group of four loyal retainers of a certain person (in this case, Draygon). It's obvious that the translators of the game didn't want to name four villains "Heavenly Kings," hence the translation of "Finest Four." If that helps, please add it back into the article for me. I'm not sure how to reference it. --Yoshiaki Abe 23:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

According to WP:EXRS#Are wikis reliable sources?, other wiki articles are not reliable sources. In this case, perhaps we could reference the original Japanese manual, if it is confirmed to use the term "shitenno" as the "Finest Four" equivalent. Another option is to search Japanese web pages for a review of God Slayer that describes the role of the shitenno in the game. --AspiringSquire 08:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd be more than happy to reference the original manual if I could find it. I don't think there are any scans online since the Japanese are not nearly as likely to post them as freely as we do. Worse comes to worse, it has to wait until I'm next in Japan when I can hopefully scrounge up a used copy with a readable manual. Thanks for the clarification on everything though. I'll see what I can find, and if I find anything else, I'll be sure to post it. --Yoshiaki Abe 19:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

More References for old KoF stuff

What happened to the bit about Ralph and Clark from Joel also being from the KoF series? Was that deleted for lack of references? If so, that was something else I nicked from the Japanese wikipedia article on God Slayer. At the very end, it says:

関連項目

• 麻宮アテナ（サイコソルジャーのキャラクター。アシーネの名前で登場）
• 椎拳崇（サイコソルジャーのキャラクター。ケンスウの名前で登場）
• ラルフ（怒 IKARIのキャラクター）
• クラーク（怒 IKARIのキャラクター）

This section literally translates as "relations" and lists all four characters and where they come from. In English:

• Athena Asamiya (Psycho Soldier character. Appearance from which Asina is named.)
• Kensou Sie (Psycho Soldier character. Appearance from which Kensu is named.)
• Ralph (Ikari Warriors character)
• Clark (Ikari Warriors character)

Hopefully this can be added in again now that it has a reference. Problem is I don't know how to add references to other language versions of wikipedia. Congrats on GA status, btw! --Yoshiaki Abe 00:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, wiki articles are not considered reliable sources. The only possibility I see for this fact being referenced for immediate inclusion, since I couldn't find any reliable English sources stating this (and very few mentioning it at all), is if there is a Japanese source referenced in the God Slayer article (or if you find a good reference on a Japanese web page) that states this. If such a reference exists, then it can be used here (see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources in languages other than English). And yeah, GA status feels good. We just need to keep everything properly referenced. --AspiringSquire 08:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

10197

I'm under the impression that there are MANY aspects of this game that could be better addressed. I'm looking for anyone who has a good understanding of some of the more symbolic elements of the game... and someone might want to mention that the 'Fallout' game alludes to 'crystalis' in it's opening scene. ANYONE who feels like talking please drop me a note at bandaidsrcool on yahoo.

 also of interest.. Eye Glasses - showing a hole in the barn on Joel Island...

Joel 1:17 mentions a broken barn. Definitely some good reading. o.. and have you noticed interesting 'MP' numbers at experience levels? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.99.136 (talk) 04:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

While I agree they are interesting, you can't just put neat coincidences on Wikipedia... everything on the page has to be information found somewhere else and cited on the Wikipedia page. DajoKatti (talk) 18:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)