Talk:Joseon

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Edit warring

Let's all step back and stop editing this article when there is an ongoing dispute. I haven't read the discussion at this talk page (I've just noticed it popping up on my watchlist a lot), but it is clear that no one here has consensus for the edits they are making. Just in the past 3 days (ie, not counting the tons of reverting on June 16), I see these reverts, most of which have no real rationale given in the edit summary and thus are just edit warring:

• Historiographer
  • It is only your assert, don't revert your subjective.
  • rv per talk page

• Jpatokal
  • rv, but change protectorate into more accurate "vassal state"
  • rv once again, see Talk
  • rv harder

• 218.94.93.254
  • histographor used extremely rude words in the talk page

Clearly, most of these are just hard reverts and don't provide any reason. That's a clear sign that you should not be editing the article directly, and should be dealing with this using the talk page, dispute resolution, or outside opinions (from, for example, WikiProject Korea) rather than edit warring. I don't want to have to lock this page down, but as an uninvolved editor (who has no political feelings either way about this dispute) I will protect it if edit warring continues. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 02:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not much involved in this article (it's on my watchlist from when I did some minor copyediting) but to my recollection, Jpatokal (talk · contribs) TheoTheobald (talk · contribs) made some major revisions to the article, essentially claiming that Joseon was not an independent political entity or in any way a sovereign state. This was done without establishing consensus and reflects a view of history which holds little currency in Korean, European, and American views of Korean history—Chinese and Japanese scholars have made such claims (especially when Japan colonized Korea to "save" the Koreans from their "stagnation"), but my professor of Korean history asserted that those views are tainted by nationalism and reflect a misunderstanding of the political systems of the time and a misrepresentation of the historical evidence. Jpatokal (talk · contribs) has followed the POV of TheoTheobald (talk · contribs) in his edits, using the term vassal state for Joseon's status. I am not an expert myself, and so I have refrained from getting involved in the editing dispute. However, everything I have been taught and everything I have read points away from the point of view Jpatokal (talk · contribs) has inserted into the article, and I believe the original contested revisions in question ought not to have been made without an attempt to establish consensus. Historiographer (talk · contribs) has been doing a good job of trying to negotiate the positions and insert nuance into the article prose where appropriate, but to my perspective, Jpatokal (talk · contribs) has not reached out to match those good-faith efforts. —Notyourbroom (talk) 03:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that a third opinion on this would be welcome, and solicited outside opinions from WP:KOREA several days ago, but none have been forthcoming so far.

Regarding the disputed terminology, it was originally "protectorate", but when User:Historiographer objected, I changed this to the more accurate "vassal state", which is backed up by several reliable sources [1] [2].

Finally, Notyourbroom's comments above are completely inaccurate, as can be seen by a cursory review of the history. To wit, this little kerfuffle started when User:TheoTheobald added a note on 7 June 2009 to the article's original claim of Joseon being "sovereign", which was reverted repeatedly by User:Historiographer. My first edit, which removed the disputed word "sovereign" and noted the dependency on Qing — in other words, said the same thing as Theo in different words — came later. Jpatokal (talk) 03:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You are correct that I conflated the two—I apologize for that. TheoTheobald (talk · contribs) did start the dispute, but he was a bit of a drive-by editor in this situation, and from my perspective, it seems that you are carrying on his point of view, but with different wording. I apologize that I did not take sufficient time to re-read the revision histories to get that point correct. —Notyourbroom (talk) 04:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It's been two nights since I posted the above message, and edit warring continues. Therefore, I have fully protected the article until the dispute is resolved. Please continue to seek dispute resolution; if a previous post at WP:KOREA has gone unanswered, try contacting editors directly (for example, just off the top of my head, I know that Caspian blue, Baeksu, and Mtd2006 are active in editing Korea-related pages), or posting at other relevant project pages or at EA. If someone needs to edit the page for something non-controversial (typo fixes, cleanup, additions that are unrelated to the content dispute, etc.) you may do so by placing the {{editprotected}} template on this talk page, with a description of the edit to be made. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 11:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, admin, thank you for the intervention. Yes, we need more neutral and knowledgeable editors of Korean history. I hope Jpatokal should stop his biased POV based on Chinese and Japanese view. He followed the SPI's insistence and his edits are not helpful for the article.

Jpatokal, your notion can not naively pushed to the article without consensus and close examinaiton. There are many opposite sources against your POV, but you ignored my opinion again. Also the Korea Project source is not reliable, so please do not insist on that.--Historiographer (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Please provide your opposing sources then. Also, can you tell us what part of WP:RS the following sources fail to meet? Jpatokal (talk) 15:45, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

1. Cheong Wa Dae: Office of the President, Republic of Korea [3], in turn sourced from the Ministry of Culture & Tourism, Republic of Korea
2. Daniel Moran: The Reader's Companion to Military History, p. 246
3. Song Shi Yeol's Discussions about Enshrinement Policies(廟制論) -Influenced by Ju Hi's Discussions of the Issue, by 이현진(Lee Hyun-Jin). The Joseon dynasty maintained the policy of 5 Main shrines in the National Shrine, keeping its position as a subordinate Vassal state to China in terms of protocols. [4]
4. Contemporary Chinese Narratives on Korean Culture, JS Hyun - Korea Journal, 2003. The tribute system defined the formal political relationship between China and its neighboring peoples in East Asia—such as Korea ... The rulers of these non-Chinese states sent missions to the imperial court to perform appropriate ceremonies as vassals (fan) and to present local products and other gifts as tribute. ... The Sino-Korean political relationship was an exemplary case of the tribute system. Except for certain transitional periods of dynastic change or the military conquest of China by outside peoples, Korean states earnestly fulfilled their tributary duties and adhered to the position of a political subordinate... [5]
5. History up to the Korean War, AC NAHM, The Far East and Australasia, 1969. He established the Yi dynasty and renamed the kingdom Choson, with Seoul as the ... Korea became increasingly Confucianized as a vassal to China [6]
6. North Korea through the looking glass, KD Oh, RC Hassig - 2000 - books.google.com. throughout most of its existence Choson maintained a vassal relationship with its powerful neighbor, China... [7]

It is regretful that you protected the article with the wrong version. Before Jpatocal and some sock push their POV to the article, the article was quiet and stable for a while. But the article suddenly gets a lot of POV attention from new users, socks, or IPs. I suspect this may come from outside. I asked help to several editors as you told us. --Historiographer (talk) 07:50, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the research. That means you are admitting that your insistence is wrong; Korea Project site is not a reliable source. I did not check the reference that is really reliable or not. I'm very busy for my works in real life these days, but I'll say after I review the source.--Historiographer (talk) 08:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with dropping Korea Project and replacing any of the six sources above. Jpatokal (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Did you just accuse me of using sock puppets? I suggest you retract that and apologize. And by the way — articles are always protected on the Wrong Version.

In the meantime, we're still waiting for you to tell us why those sources fail to meet WP:RS, or provide sources of your own. Jpatokal (talk) 08:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

No, you did not read my comment carefully again. I did not accuse you of sock and I said socks and ips, the suspicious editors suddenly came here insert biased information. You're unfortunately following their POV. That is already said by Notyourbroom. You should get rid of your false accusation and apolosize to me.--Historiographer (talk) 08:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

So who are you accusing of using sock puppets? What are these "suspicious" editors? Jpatokal (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Joseon was Ming's vassal state

according to both Chinese and Korean source, all of Joseon kings got Cefeng(册封) and they tributed to Ming every year after A.D 1403.

even dynasty's name 'Joseon' also permited by Ming's Emperor. those facts not show Joseon was vassal state of Ming？ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.99.38.227 (talk) 01:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Joseon was Ming and Qing's vassal state before 1897. Some Korean nationalists refused to accept it, but it's still an unchangeable truth. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 04:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...Maybe. But Joseon's kings still were sovereign in Joseon. And, 蘇州宇文宙武, treating us as a 'Korean nationalist' is uncivil. You can have your opinions, and I can have mine. And my opinion is and was that even though Joseon was a half-buffer state, Joseon was a sovereign state. --Kfc18645 talk 14:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Sovereign state? This phrase didn't exist until 1815 (see Constitutive theory of statehood), and it has nothing to do with vassal state. See tribute and List of tributaries of Imperial China. Meanwhile, I didn't treat you as 'Korean nationalist', so don't confess without being pressed. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 07:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

So can we agree that Joseon had internal sovereignty (within its borders), but not external (foreign affairs)? Jpatokal (talk) 01:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Various IP editors from China, Korea and United States but all shared same POV for Japan and China, you claim that Joseon is a vassal state of Ming China in your view and ignore Korean view and Western view. And according to various English sources, Japan was a vassal state of China and paid tribute. Toyotomi Hideyoshi caused the Imjin War because he did not like pay tributes to China, but he later kowtowed to China anyway. This is notable information, so please add this to article of the introduction of Japan too.--Historiographer (talk) 08:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Please see the list of six (6) sources above. Three (3) are Korean sources (Office of the President ROK, JS Hyun, Lee Hyun-Jin) and three (3) are Western sources (Daniel Moran, AC Nahm, KD Oh; I presume Messrs Nahm and Oh are of Korean descent). There are zero (0) sources from Japan or China.

By the way, we are still waiting for you to present any sources to support your point of view. Jpatokal (talk) 12:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Toyotomi declined Chinese Cefeng(册封) proposal(for stop Japanese invasions of Korea) and resume the attack Korea. as I know, Toyotomi didn't kotow to China. and, tribute way between Korea and Japan/European countries were different; Korea tributed to China by way of sending governmental official to Nanjing or Beijing. Japan and European countries described as "tributary" in Chinese old manuscripts but actually, they does private Trade(日明貿易(for Japan)/勘合貿易) with Trader fleets made-up by private merchants. not sent bureaucrat to Chinese imperial city for tribute. 61.99.38.227 (talk) 15:22, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Joseon Kingdom was tributary relation with Ming because of the "trade" and then it became Vassal after Qing invaded Joseon Kingdom. Japan was also tributary relation with Joseon and Ming as well. Then Toyotomi broke this relations, but Japan still paid tributes to both Joseon and Ming during Edo period.--Korsentry 23:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

• • • 조선왕조실록(the annals of Joseon dynasty)
• 태종 11년(1411년) 12월 9일 을미 :“본국에서 금은이 나지 않은데, 해마다 중국(中國)에 바치는 것이 모두 7백여 냥쭝[兩]이나 되니, 매우 염려된다. 수안(遂安)·단주(端州)·안변(安邊) 등지에서 정련(精鍊)하라.”(A.D 1411 : we annually tribute 20kg(700yang) of gold and silver to China but in Korea, their is only few amount of gold and silver.)

• 세종 11년(1429년) 8월 18일 임진 : 임금이 왕세자와 백관(百官)을 거느리고, 금·은 세공(歲貢)의 면제를 주청(奏請)하는 표·전문(表箋文)을 배송(拜送)하였다. (A.D 1429 : Joseon's King sent official text which requests diminish amount of gold and silver tribute to Ming.)

• 선조 26년(1593년) 11월 12일 임진 : 중국 사신이 칙서를 받들고 잇따라 이르니, 상이 뜰에서 무릎꿇고 맞이하여 사배(四拜)하였다. (A.D 1593 : Joseon's king four times kotowed to Chinese missionary.)

• 영조 68년(1748년) 7월 30일 임오 : 사행(使行)이 강호(江戶)에 도착했는데, 이곳은 곧 관백(關白)이 거처하는 곳으로 지리(地理)가 매우 험하였고 경유한 곳의 성호(城濠)는 견고하고 완벽하여 포석(砲石)으로 분쇄할 수 있는 정도가 아니었다... 길가에는 전사(廛肆)가 벌려 있었고 여리(閭里)는 모두 조리 있게 구획되어 문란하지 않았다... 여염(閭閻)의 성대함은 중국(中國)보다 더 나았다...사신이 그 나라에 도착하게 되면 제도(諸島)에 호령하는 패문(牌文)에 ‘조선(朝鮮)에서 조공을 바치러 들어온다.'고 하기에까지 이르러 국가의 수욕(羞辱)이 막심하였다.(A.D 1748 : Joseon's missionaries arrived Edo, which is residence place of Japan's Shogun. this place's geography is rough; and Guard wall looked tough. inner city was well-prepared and dwelling site was richer than China's. when Joseon's missionary arrived Japan, their set up tablet text which says 'Joseon's tributary missionaries coming'.)

Joseon's tribute was 'NOT' trade. you think what is 'trade'？ sent scarce thing and gain nothing is not trade in my opinion. and Japan was sent tributary missionaries to neither China nor Korea.61.99.38.182 (talk) 01:11, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I checked above source, but, it is your own made source? I check anal of joseon dynasty record, but actually, your records is not exist.

* 선조 26년(1593년) 11월 12일 임진. <- this record is not exist. And your traslation was wrong. first of all, King rite performed kowtow only 2 times in all of Joseon history (Japan, rykyu's kings were also kowtowed to China), 2nd, but it was not Chinese missionary direction, It was Ming emperor palace direction. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

no. that exists. that is from 선조 45권, 26년(1593 계사 / 명 만력(萬曆) 21년) 윤11월 12일(임진) 3번째기사. and, their is no 'King' in Japan. that is maybe your original research. 61.99.38.196 (talk) 15:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Not original research. Ryukyu King kowtowed to China, Japanese Kampaku kowtowed to China. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 21:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Joseon gets trade rights and access to scholastic resources that something like special relation with USA as today. Japan did sent tributes to Joseon and Ming & Qing, you check their records.--Korsentry 03:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

No. Ming doesn't specially treated Korea but Dai Viet, Ryukyu are more well-treated than Korea like today's USA doesn't has 'special relationship' with Korea. if you want to say Joseon's King was sovereign or Japan didn't consider 조선통신사(朝鮮通信使) as tributary missionary, just bring the source. 61.99.38.182 (talk) 07:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

and, i think Ming's mild treat toward Joseon is reasonable because Joseon tributed large amount of gold and silver and other elses without get return. btw, you has sources which say(or you think) that period's Joseon has enough national power or prestige for get foreign tribute？ 61.99.38.182 (talk) 07:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

that is the your own original research. Japan and ryukyu were also vassal state of China. and Ryukyu was sent tribute to Joseon. In that time, Grade of intra asia, China > Joseon > Ryukyu > Japan. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

their was no Japan's represent during Japan's civil war period. so, also their was no Japan's official missonaries. then, how tribute to other land as 'Japan'？ your states can't make a sense. thus, Korea was way weaker than United Japan and Ryukyu didn't tribute to Korea, that is Korean Sinocentric(소중화주의 小中華主義) view of international trade. 61.99.38.196 (talk) 15:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Sovereign state? Please look at Draft History of Qing([8]):

二十一年三月，马关条约成，其第一款中国确认朝鲜为完全无缺独立自主之国，凡前此贡献等典礼皆废之。盖自崇德二年李倧归附，朝鲜为清属国者凡二百五十有八年，至是遂为独立自主国云。

It says that Joseon didn't become a sovereign state until the signature of the Treaty of Shimonoseki. But actually after that, Joseon became a vassal state then a colony of Japan. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 01:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

That is the your own original research and lie.

1. Not Only Joseon, But also Japan, Rykyu, Vietnam were also Tributaries of China.

2. Draft History of Qing is a Qing Dynasty record. It is foreign source, it recorded as biased Sinocentrism manner.

3. According to your favored source, Draft History of Qing,

• [光緖]三年(1877), 朝鮮以天主敎事與法國有違言

略曰: 「而政令則歸其自理. 天下皆知, 卽其爲自主之國, 亦天下皆知, 日本豈得獨拒?」

Qing dynasty says, "Joseon governed by their own, All world know Joseon is a 自主國(Indepedence country). Why Japan refuse them? ”

• 淸史稿 卷 526 朝鮮列傳 第 313

答以: 「而内政外交听其自主, 我朝向不预闻.」

Qing dynasty says, "(Joseon's) 政外(internal administration) 交听(diplomacy ; foreign policy) 其自主( are independence decision by Joseon dynasty) , 我朝向不预闻.(Our country never interfere with them)" Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 09:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

You are liar, don't you see this:

“朝鲜久隶中国 (Joseon has belonged to China for a long time)，而政令则归其自理。其为中国所属，天下皆知 (All world know Joseon belongs to China)，即其为自主之国，亦天下皆知，日本岂得独拒？” and ““朝鲜虽藩属 (Although Joseon is our vassal state),而内政外交听其自主,我朝向不预闻。””

Why did you lost them? 自主之国 doesn't mean sovereign state. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 10:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

Wow. belong to china? how can interpret like that?

1. Draft History of Qing is a Qing Dynasty record. It is foreign source to Joseon, it recorded as biased Sinocentrism manner. It is not regard as authentic history source of Joseon.

2. Your translation is Wrong. and You forked only your convenience source. According to your mentioned sentence,

：“朝鲜久隶中国，而政令则归其自理。其为中国所属，天下皆知，即其为自主之国，亦天下皆知，日本岂得独拒？”

朝鲜久隶中国 (Even if Joseon is attached to China) (Note:隶 (attached to / scribe)[9])

而政令则归其自理 (Joseon governed by their own goverment)

其为中国所属 (All world know Joseon connect with China) (Note: this is biased view of qing. it is not recognized by Joseon)

即其为自主之国 (Joseon is a Indepedence country) (Note: 自主之国 mean "Independence soverign country")

亦天下皆知 (All world know it)

日本岂得独拒？ (Why only japan refuse it?)

3. Like above metioned,

「而内政外交听其自主, 我朝向不预闻.」

Qing dynasty says, "(Joseon's) 政外(internal administration) 交听(diplomacy ; foreign policy) 其自主( are independence decision by Joseon dynasty) , 我朝向不预闻.(Our country never interfere with them)"

China never interfere Joseon's Sovereignty. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 11:32, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

1. “Draft History of Qing is a Qing Dynasty record. It is foreign source to Joseon, it recorded as biased Sinocentrism manner. It is not regard as authentic history source of Joseon.” Who said that? Give me some evidence.

2. My translation was wrong? You meant yours was correct, but how can you prove it?

3. “自主之国 mean "Independence soverign country"”? Who said that? Give me some evidence. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 12:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

You are perhaps chinese, but, you can't read this basic chinese character?

自主 : (verb) make decisions by oneself[10]

国 : (noun) country Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 12:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

---

I can't read this basic chinese character?! Hahahahaha... I can't, but you can?! Hahahahaha... Country like Greenland also can make ecisions by itself, but it isn't a sovereign state. In my opinion, Joseon was just like Greenland. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 12:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

THAT is a your own baseless original research. Please stop your own POV pushing.

Like Chinese history record metioned, Joseon's foreign policy and internal administration wholly governed by Joseon. China was nothing relation with Joseon's own Sovereignty.Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 12:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I can say that what you said is also your own basless original research. Sovereignty is not included internal administration and diplomacy only. Don't you forget Hideyoshi's invasions of Korea, Joseon must have been conquered by Japan without China's help. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 12:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Joseon fully sufficient necessary conditions of Sovereignty. Foreign policy, internal administration, if foreigner commited a crime in Joseon, foreigner punished by Joseon's law. Joseon fulfill necessacry conditions of full Sovereignty. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 13:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

In a word, I need your evidence about it. I need evidence which says that Joseon is a sovereign state clearly. We can't make original research. If there isn't any evidence, all what you said here is useless, understand? --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 13:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

nah.... repeat, repeat again. I already prove evidence by official Qing dynasty history source. Qing offically says, Joseon was "Independence soverign country" which have own foreign policy, own internal administration. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 13:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I can say what you translated was wrong. I can say Joseon was a autonomous country within China. You have to find a book says Joseon is a sovreign state in English, or else anything you said is useless. On the other hand, I can find many books say that Joseon wasn't a sovereign state but a vassal state of China until the signature of the Treaty of Shimonoseki, and you can say they're recorded as biased Sinocentrism manner, but you can't say they're wrong. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 13:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have to go to bed now, and see you tomorrow. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 13:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what is your book, But, according to my books, Joseon was a full sovereign country. This is no dispute fact. I first heard this disupte from you. I know they treated china as big brother(like nowdays north korea), but it is not mean Joseon was not sovereign country. My point is clear, 1. Official China history record says, Joseon was "Independence soverign country" which have own foreign policy, own internal administration(and Acutally Joseon was). 2. Joseon fulfill necessacry conditions of full Sovereignty. You can't deny it.

According to CIA fact book[11], "An independent Korean state or collection of states has existed almost continuously for several millennia. Between its initial unification in the 7th century - from three predecessor Korean states - until the 20th century, Korea existed as a single independent country....". OK? I prove english source by your request. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Cherry Blossom OK, do you know China-Korea Treaty of Merchant and Commerce(조청상민수륙무역장정)？ it is mistranslated as treaty/조약(條約) but 장정(章程) should be translated as 'bill'. bill/장정(章程) is NOT Treaty but it is regulation applicate in one country or sphere.

btw, this Bill featuring following articles.

• Article 1 : 청국 상무위원의 파견 및 이들의 처우, 북양대신과 조선국왕이 대등한 위치임을 규정(regulate about Chinese director's sending and treat; also regulate Chinese Beiyang minister and Korean King has equal status.)
• Article 2 : 조선내에서의 청 상무위원의 치외법권을 인정(regulate Chinese director's extraterritoriality in Korea)

and more 6 Articles. this treaty shows relationship between Qing and Joseon is absolutely not equal but Korea regarded as one of province of China. 61.99.38.196 (talk) 16:28, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, That is your own POV pushing and original research, I already said, Joseon treated China as Big Brother, Rykukyu, Japan, Vietnam were absolutely not equal with China. Korea regarded as one of province of China? Well, That is the Completely ridiculous, your own POV pushing and lie. According to your logic, Ryukyu, Japan were Chinese provnce, Aren't you? if Joeseon was province, How could Joseon made Treaty with England, Russia, US? How could these foreign countries made their embassies in Joseon? Joseon was Independence country, have full foreign policy their own, but I agree Joseon and China relation was not equal. However, Joseon fulfill necessacry conditions of full Sovereignty.

According to Treaty of Ganghwa (1876), "Joseon is full Sovereignty country, Japan and Joseon are equal right counties"

They are equal countries. So, According to your logic, Japan was Chinese province?

According to Treaty of Shimonoseki(1895), "China recognizes definitively the full and complete independence of Korea".

This mean is not "Joseon become independence", Just recognize again. (This treaty mean, China must not involve with Joseon)

(1877) Draft History of Qing, "答以: 「而内政外交听其自主, 我朝向不预闻.」 Qing dynasty says, "(Joseon's) 政外(internal administration) 交听(diplomacy ; foreign policy) 其自主(are independence decision by Joseon dynasty) , 我朝向不预闻.(Our country never interfere with them)"

Before Treaty of Shimonoseki, Joseon was already full Sovereignty country.

And Treaty is a only 'Country : Country' agreement.

"A treaty is an agreement under international law entered into by actors in international law, namely sovereign states and international organizations." Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 22:30, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1. From Treaty of Ganghwa, I don't see the phrases you said Joseon is full Sovereignty country, Japan and Joseon are equal right counties. Can you write it in Chinese?
2. Just recognize again?! That's your original research.
3. All what you said is your own opinion, and you must find a book says Joseon is a sovereign state to prove it. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 02:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

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• 1. (1876) Treaty of Ganghwa (Joseon-Japan treaty) "條約『第一款：朝鮮國自主之邦與. 日本國保有平等之權嗣後兩國欲表和親之實必而彼此同等"[12] 34p

No.1: Joseon is a 自主之邦(Independence sovereign country), 日本國保有平等之權(Joseon have euqal authority with Japan.)

• 2. (1877) Draft History of Qing, "答以: 「而内政外交听其自主, 我朝向不预闻.」 Qing dynasty says, "(Joseon's) 政外(internal administration) 交听(diplomacy ; foreign policy) 其自主(are independence decision by Joseon dynasty) , 我朝向不预闻.(Our country never interfere with them)"
• 3. No. Even Japan and China contemporary documents show that Joseon was full Sovereignty country.

Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 02:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

自主 can also mean autonomous. You must find the phrase says that Joseon is a sovereign state in English or German or French or Spanish etc.. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 03:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Why did you lost 朝鲜虽藩属 (Although Joseon is our vassal state) again and again? --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 03:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"國" mean Country, Not region. 邦 mean Country, Not region.[13]

CIA fact book is not enough? until the 20th century, Korea existed as a single independent country....". OK? And, I already prove by contemporary documents.Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 03:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Greenland is also a country but not a sovereign state. CIA fact book isn't a historical book. You still can't deny that Joseon is a 藩属 (vassal state) of China. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 03:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

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Wow, you really stuborn and keep your POV pushing. Greenland example is your own oiriginal research. Greenland is very difference case with Joseon. for example, If foreigner want travel to greeland, They must recieve permission from denmark goverment, need denmark VISA. Joseon and China were two independence countries, But, Joseon treated China as Big brother, It was a purely diplomatic relation. here is the another treaty [14] before 1895. i already mentioned, Treaty is Country : Country agreement. Joseon was equal relation with US.

(1882) TREATY OF AMITY AND COMMERCE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND COREA

The United States of America and the Kingdom of Chosen, being sincerely desirous of establishing permanent relations of amity and friendship between their respective peoples, have to this end appointed, that is to say: the President of the United States, R. W. SHUFELDT, Commodore, U. S. Navy, as his Commissioner Plenipotentiary; and His Majesty the King of Chosen, SHIN CHEN, President of the Royal Cabinet, CHIN HONG-CHI, Member of the Royal Cabinet as his Commissioners Plenipotentiary; who, having reciprocally examined their respective full powers, which have been found to be in due form, have agreed upon the several following Articles[...] Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 03:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

You still can't show me the phrase says Joseon is a sovereign state. All what you said here is totally your own opinion and original research. You still can't deny what the historical book was recorded that Joseon is a 藩属 (vassal state) of China. So don't entangle and involve me any more. I don't have enough time to listen to your original research. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, I also don't have enough time to listen to your original research. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

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...You still can't deny that Joseon is a 藩属 (vassal state) of China.

If tributaries are 藩属. Then, Japan (before Qing), Vietnam, Ryukyu were also 藩属 (vassal state) of China. But, why you did not change Vietnam, Ryukyu, Japan article? Are you double standard? And I personally think Ryukyu was Chinese Kingdom. Go to ryukyu article, and play there. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 03:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't care about others. Give me your evidence to deny 藩属. --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 03:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I already prove evidences. Qing record, Japan treaty, US Treaty. And East Asia 藩属 and Western "Vassal State" concepts are cleary difference. Even This Korean source prove that.[15]Template:Ko 1. Joseon governed by Korean Kingdom. 2. Joseon ruled by Korean's law. 3. Joseon have their own forein policy 4. Joseon made "Treaty" with many countries. 5. Several East Asia official goverment contemporary documents (Qing record, Japan treaty, US Treaty) proves it.Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 04:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Joseon (July 1392 – August 1910) (also Chosŏn, Choson, Chosun), was a Korean sovereign state[2] founded by Taejo Yi Seong-gye that lasted for approximately five centuries.

if 'sovereign state' word is still disputed, How about change as "single independence Kingdom"? Qing dynasty history book, Japan treaty, US Treaty, CIA Fact Books backing up this. 藩属 or not, Joseon was 'single independence Kingdom', this sentence is not dispute. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 05:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

East Asia 藩属 and Western "Vassal State" concepts are cleary difference?! Your research?! I'm sorry but just look at vassal state, it's a totally east asian historical term translated into English. single independence Kingdom?! Your research? Show me your evidence. Which book says so? --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 05:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Repeat Again? Not my research. Check source.[16]Template:Ko] Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 05:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

And Wikipedia Article itself can't be a reliable source.

Wikipedia:Reliable source examples

Are wikis reliable sources?

Wikis, including Wikipedia and other wikis sponsored by the Wikimedia Foundation, are not regarded as reliable sources. Cherry Blossom OK (talk) 05:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

More edit warring

I have undone this edit and blocked Historiographer for 31 hours because this is clear continuation of edit warring, less than 24 hours after the page was unprotected, and with no consensus at the talk page. If my protection rationale was not clear enough already, I think both Historiographer and Jpatokal need to stay out of this article (other than minor/MOS edits and reverting vandalism) and stick to the talk page. Any further reverts—especially changes to the disputed section—will result in blocks, like this one did. It is you guys' responsibility to find outside opinions, bring them here, and reach an acceptable consensus/compromise; until that is done, neither of you should be editing the disputed text directly. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 13:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Please limit your remarks to the person actually doing the edit warring; I haven't touched the article since June 25th, and have no intention of doing so. Jpatokal (talk) 13:55, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say you were edit warring; I just was clarifying that I think both of you should stay at the talk page. You haven't done anything wrong, I just didn't want to look like I was singling one editor out. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal

FYI, I have filed a case for this page at the Mediation Cabal → Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2009-07-09/Joseon Dynasty. Jpatokal (talk) 06:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone, why don't you talk in the mediation cabal but still make edit-warring? --Apollo Augustus Koo (talk) 00:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Now User:蘇州宇文宙武 has been blocked 31h for the same reason as Historiographer was: unexplained reverting in the middle of a content dispute. If this continues I will have to protect the page again, and for a longer time before; I won't care which version is protected. I will also file an RFC or an RfAR to request that this article be put on article probation. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 00:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I would be in favor of immediate protection, so we can try to work out something on the Talk page instead of continuing the pointless edit war. Jpatokal (talk) 01:58, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Withdrawing

I've been an occasional participant in this debate, but I'm now taking this article off of my watchlist and withdrawing from further editing for the time being. I think things have reached an impasse, everyone is accusing everyone else of edit-warring, someone's already received a block, and I don't want to risk my ability to participate in other projects by being similarly blocked in the crossfire. —Notyourbroom (talk) 21:45, 10 July 2009 (UTC)