Talk:United States

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Current population (est.): 338,492,000 as of September 29, 2024. The USCB projects 439 million by 2050

Religion bias

There's an editor who says that atheism is not a religion so it should not be ranked with the number of people in each religion. This is not correct.

See another example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea#Religion which shows that atheism is #1 is North Korea. It's not hidden to the end like the US article. In the US article, less common religions, like Islam, are given more prominence.

We should list the religions according to which has the most people following the belief. As such, this edit is wrong and should be reverted back (get rid of DocKino's version) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States&diff=307408163&oldid=307407354 User F203 (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

• (1) Atheism is not a religion.
• (2) Wikipedia itself does not constitute an authoritative reference, per our well-established policies.
• (3) The article's section on religion comprises precisely one paragraph. It is unreasonable to claim that the content of that paragraph's final sentence--concerning those who do not profess a religion--is "hidden". DocKino (talk) 19:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is fair. So common religious beliefs are listed first. That's why the section doesn't read "In the U.S., 2% of people practice Islam, 1% practice Hinduism. As a footnote, 35% are Catholic". When asked what their religion is, some people say "atheist". This is kooky that there is so much dispute over this straightforward point. At this rate, nobody would want to make chances to make this article really professional looking. User F203 (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

There has been no dispute over the organization of the section until you arrived. Please take a look at our primary source for the section's data: the Pew Forum's Religious Landscape Survey. Please note, the data on those professing a faith—any faith—precedes the data on those who are "unaffiliated" ("atheist", "agnostic", "nothing in particular"). OK? Do you understand now? The section's current structure does reflect the professional standard.—DocKino (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Please, no attacks. There was no dispute until you started to argue. We are WP, not mouthpieces of Pew. We don't take orders from Pew. We write what is the most logical and best for WP. User F203 (talk) 14:47, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

The section also references another important source: the CUNY Graduate Center's "American Religious Identification Survey". Take a look at it, F203: [1]. Same exact story: Self-described religious identification of those identifying with Christian religious groups listed first, followed by affiliates of "Other Religion Groups", followed by those in "No Religion Groups". The structure we currently use is backed up by multiple high-quality sources. The change you want to make is based on your personal opinion. Case closed.—DCGeist (talk) 15:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

A recent edit popped this up on my watchlist. This comes to mind as a source refuting the unsupported assertion here that atheism is not a religion, but I'm doubtful about its relevance regarding ordering in a list. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 01:46, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The "assertion" that atheism is not a religion needs "support"? Really? OK, happy to oblige. My support is the primary definition of religion offered by Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: "the service and worship of God or the supernatural". (I call this the "primary definition", though it does follow a highly technical one: "the state of a religious". Here is the example given for that usage: "a nun in her 20th year of religion".) Here's more support: Our Pew Research source brackets atheists with those "unaffiliated" with a religious faith. And here's even more support: Our CUNY Graduate Center source brackets atheists with those identifying with "No religion group". All clear? DocKino (talk) 02:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm presently on vacation and probably won't participate much in this discussion beyond this, which appears to be getting far afield from the question of proper list ordering. Anyhow, see A. Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation in DEREK P. APANOVITCH, "RELIGION AND REHABILITATION: THE REQUISITION OF GOD BY THE STATE", Duke Law journal, 47: 785- for more info on the case of Warne v. Orange County Department of Probation which I mentioned earlier. Also consider the argument based on Wisconsin v. Yoder, a case decided by the US Supreme court. That decision found that Amish children could not be placed under compulsory education past 8th grade, as it violated their parents' fundamental right to freedom of religion. An argument expressed under "A more satisfactory approach" in Kent Greenawalt (2006), Religion and the Constitution, Princeton University Press, pp. 149-156, ISBN 9780691125824 is that unless atheism is a religion, atheists do not have free exercise rights equal in all respects with those of religious believers. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The question of proper list ordering was indeed settled above. You wanted to push the discussion further afield, for reasons only you can explain. Simple fact: In ordinary English language usage, atheism is not a religion. Rather, it is quite the opposite: "a disbelief in the existence of deity" (there's that dictionary again!). Are we done here? DocKino (talk) 05:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's worthless belligerence. As to the above, sources do not back the structure that data is presented; you cannot infer that Pew or CUNY are arguing in favor of the way their data is structured merely by presenting data. All said, I don't think there's a serious problem with the religion section, but it's a bad point to say that because it is not a religion, it does not deserve equal regard to religious beliefs as relevant. If 35% of Americans were atheists, I would hope this section would read a little differently. As it stands, it's not as big of a deal, but we don't have to be pedantic on the immaterial point of what is or is not a religion.69.94.192.147 (talk) 04:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Reference to military spending in 4th paragraph.

I have a question about the sentence:

The country accounts for approximately 50% of global military spending and is a leading economic, political and cultural force in the world.

While I agree that the USA's share of military spending is relevant to the topic, the rest of the sentence is speaking much more generally about the country's status as a whole. By putting the reference to military spending and the more general statement "is a leading economic, political, and cultural force" in the same sentence separated by "and", it can lead to the impression that the two statements are equal in significance. I would argue on the other hand that the USA's economic and cultural power more than outweighs its military power on the world as a whole. For example, the USA's share of world GDP is about 25%(according to CIA Factbook), far more than any other single country(although the EU as a whole has a higher share). In my opinion, this statistic is just as relevant to America's international influence as its total military spending so the reference to the military there seems arbitrary to me. Hipppete (talk) 14:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox template

What's stopping us from making the infobox for this page into its own template (something like Template:United States infobox) where this template contains all the info of the Infobox Country used currently, but transcluded in? That will make the raw size of the article smaller, and allow for usage elsewhere. Specifically, I'd like to see it added to Outline of the United States which currently looks drab because of haphazard placements of images in its lead. I think an infobox is an outline itself, and would add greatly to that article. Just a thought. Others? wadester16 04:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Single-use templates are frowned upon. --Golbez (talk) 05:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Frowned upon" implies that exceptions are possible. Might this be one? We could use the extra space in the article. wadester16 05:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Probably not. This article is not special. --Golbez (talk) 06:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I feel this is a good place for WP:IAR. It's a high-hit article that constantly deals with being too long, as you would know being one of the regulars here. Plus, I'd add this template to Outline of the United States, which would keep it out of the single-use category and allow for an up-to-date and identical infobox in both articles. Remove the template from this page and you save 5 kilobytes (roughly π%); the transclusion will only add about 30-40 bytes. Can you think of any stronger arguments not to do this? Because I can't. wadester16 07:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Since only a tiny percentage of users edit the page, the space savings is not terribly relevant, if we're talking about performance. Do any other outline articles include the country's template? --Golbez (talk) 10:24, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Based on a quick glance, no. But it seems they really should; an infobox is definitionally an outline and the current haphazard placement of flags, seals, and maps is not flattering to these outlines. wadester16 11:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Wadester's idea is a good one. Outline of the United States specifically and the country outline articles generally would be improved--markedly improved, in many cases--by making the relevant infobox standard for the lead section. This would essentially require the template approach, as consistency would demand that the infobox in the main country article and outline article be identical. Viewed from this perspective, the single-use issue is rendered moot and the space savings is a bonus. DocKino (talk) 16:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you check in with the countries wikiproject first; it would be quite annoying if the infobox were moved to a template, then the addition of it to the outline article were denied by edit warring (which would mean it would have to be re-substed here). --Golbez (talk) 16:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Irrelevant information

Under the 'History Heading', subheading 'Native American and European Settlers', we find the following phrase seemingly tossed in: "All [13 colonies] legalized the African slave trade."

1. Is this relevant to the history of native American and European settlers in America? 2. To be more precise, all 13 colonies legalized ALL slave trade, including that from the Middle East and Eastern Europe (which, while it enjoys little attention in High School History textbooks, is a notable fact).

Propose: eliminating the phrase, or amending it to read "All legalized slave trade", the former being my preferred option. -Batmanhatguy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Batmanhatguy (talk • contribs) 06:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal rejected.—DCGeist (talk) 07:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd actually like more discussion on this. I'm going to sound ignorant here but while I've heard there were non-black slaves in the colonies, I don't know if I ever read it as solid fact. If that's the case, then perhaps the word "African" is indeed causing an inaccuracy. --Golbez (talk) 09:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

US Code: "Federal corporation"

U.S. Code defines the United States as a "Federal corporation", corporation meaning here a "body that is granted a charter recognizing it as a separate legal entity having its own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of its members" created "for the purpose of government", the latter a definition coming from British common law. Found here. Since this is an official definition from US law, it should be included in the article. Proposal: "The United States of America (commonly referred to as the United States, the U.S., the USA, or America) is a federal corporation[insert footnote with link to USCode] comprising fifty states and a federal district. Its form of government is that of a constitutional republic. The country is situated…". —85.178.104.254 (talk) 05:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see title of preceding thread.—DCGeist (talk) 07:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, the editor at 85.178.104.254 clearly has no understanding of how to read a federal statute. 28 U.S.C. § 3002's scope is expressly limited to that particular chapter (which in turn deals with the relatively limited subject of federal debt collection procedure), and the section quoted defines "United States" by using the logical disjunctive "or" to link three different categories of federal entities. Citing that narrowly drawn statute for the broad general proposition that the U.S. is a "federal corporation" is total nonsense. Pro se litigants make stupid assertions like that in court all the time. Which is why lawyers like myself get to bill hundreds of dollars per hour to run them over like a dump truck. --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Now, that's even more interesting. The US is referred to as a "corporation" in the context of "debt collection". But okay, it's not suited for inclusion in the way I proposed above. (PS: You should work on your attitude, Mr. Lawyer.) —85.178.116.64 (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Gun/Violent Crime in the United States

The article here claims that violent crime is higher in the US than most developed nations, and it contributes it to guns. However, the figures cited in the article are from 2001-2002 and are severely outdated. The newest United Nations figures don't even place the United States among the top 10 developed western nations in terms of violent crime rate, and they also show a direct correlation between gun control and an increase in violent crime. This section of the article really needs to be updated. —DuckFerret

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Would you please link us to the "newest United Nations figures" (or, if they're not online, provide a comprehensive citation)? Specifically, please point us to the UN data revealing the very important discovery that there is a "direct correlation between gun control and an increase in violent crime". Thanks very much. DocKino (talk) 09:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm working on finding the actual UN documents, but there were a number of news articles published on the matter. Here's a couple:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html Hopefully I can find the primary source documents, but I am not sure where to find it, which is why I didn't just make the edits myself.