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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dussst (talk | contribs) at 10:27, 13 February 2006 (→‎[[Template:User no Rand]]: Undelete). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

As userboxes are a particular hot-button issue at the moment, and the constant appearance of them at Deletion review is beginning to swamp all other discussions, they for now are being moved here. New userbox nominations should be added to the top of this page, and linked from the DRV mainpage.

Userbox:Anti ACLU and Userbox:Anti UN

On 22:36, February 12, 2006 User:MarkSweep deleted Userbox:Anti ACLU with the edit summary (no such namespace). I'm confused what that edit summary means and request that its deletion be reviwed and the reason for its deletion clearly indicated.

Both Userbox:Anti ACLU and Userbox:Anti UN were not created by mistake. They were created by me, on purpose, so as to not be templates. User:MarkSweep has made a point of explaining that Userboxes as templates are required to be NPOV. This was created so as to not violate that policy. Since it is now clear they were not created by mistake, I would like them both undeleted. Thank you. Lawyer2b 04:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting concept. I think creating "Userbox space" could work, but I also don't think that Deletion Review is the place to make that decision. I'll vote to Undelete, at least temporarily. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That makes no sense at all. Template:User Anti-UN, that's where the real debate is. This is just a strawman. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 04:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Simple explanation: There is no "Userbox" namespace. You're simply recreating templates that were previously deleted. Since you admit that your out-of-process recreation was deliberate, this is a WP:POINT violation, and if you continue you will see yourself blocked rather quickly. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 04:49, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I beg your pardon. 1) I didn't think there was a "process" I had to go through to create a wikipedia page. What process is that? 2) All these userboxes were deleted because they were Templates, correct? I created one that was not. I'm not trying to prove a point, I'm trying to create a userbox that will not be deleted because it doesn't violate policy. How is this a WP:POINT violation? Lawyer2b 04:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Apology accepted. And it's a WP:POINT violation precisely because you're trying to follow your (inaccurate) interpretation of the letter of the rules without regard for their spirit. Those templates were deleted for a good reason, so don't recreate them. If they need to be recreated, that will happen in the proper place. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 05:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to learn here, but this feels like you want everyone to play "heads you lose, tails I win". Previous attempts at deleting userboxes were met with much "weeping and gnashing of teeth". Even Jimbo Wales even frowned on the immediate deletion of them, instead calling on users to voluntarily not use them. That notwithstanding, since there is not official policy or consensus that allows you to delete userboxes like "I don't support the United Nations", you applied the rule that says templates with a POV can be deleted. All userboxes are templates, ergo they can be deleted with impunity. Isn't THAT a violation of WP:POINT?. Lawyer2b 05:26, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Since these were created in the article namespace, they easily meet several criteria for speedy deletion, including A1 and A4, as well as G4 and being non-encyclopedic. Lawyer2b, if you continue in this manner you will quickly find yourself blocked. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:00, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, pending the creation of a "Userbox namespace". And if the sole purpose of a "userbox namespace" is to subvert the rules of what's allowed in templates (some sort of realm of anarchy, I suppose) then I will also here state my objects to the creation of such a namespace. This isn't Bartertown.-R. fiend 05:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Speedy candidate, divisive, poisoning well, etc. --Improv 06:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • undelete and protect from deleation It seems the debate gets re-framed everytime the delete arguments get shot down by a consensus against it. how may times do we have to disagree before our opinion is taken seriously? You can keep moving the debate, restarting the debate, making new rules, reintreprating rules, revising what you ment, etc, but you have failed time and time again to reach a consensus for deleation. Please stop trying to game the system. Mike McGregor (Can) 08:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You do realize that in this case at least it's the creators of the "userboxes" who are trying to game the system by creating userboxes in the articlespace, don't you? -R. fiend 08:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

break/ add comments above here?

This section is where the previous separate debate on Userbox:anti UN was before the two discussions, being basically identical, were combined. Please add comments above

On 22:35, February 12, 2006 User:MarkSweep deleted Userbox:Anti UN with the edit summary (no such namespace). I'm confused what that edit summary means and request that its deletion be reviwed and the reason for its deletion clearly indicated.

Both Userbox:Anti ACLU and Userbox:Anti UN were not created by mistake. They were created by me, on purpose, so as to not be templates. User:MarkSweep has made a point of explaining that Userboxes as templates are required to be NPOV. This was created so as to not violate that policy. Since it is now clear they were not created by mistake, I would like them both undeleted. Thank you. Lawyer2b 04:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting concept. I think creating "Userbox space" could work, but I also don't think that Deletion Review is the place to make that decision. I'll vote to Undelete, at least temporarily. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 04:45, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As there is no "userbox namespace", these pages are in the main namespace, and thus need to conform to NPOV even more than something in the template namespace. Keep deleted. Gentgeen 04:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User no Rand

It's a shame that we have to discuss this AGAIN, seeing as it already passed DRV on February 9 and was re-listed on WP:TFD, but of course, an admin saw fit to speedy delete it once more under the convienent T1 loophole (log). Recommendation: Undelete and Relist on TFD --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:09, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User wishful

Deleted during active TFD Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_5#Template:User_wishful with a consensus to keep.

Undelete Procedural undelete. User:Adrian/zap2.js 22:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't understand that comment - do you mean that it is neccessarily devisive? --Doc ask? 01:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In a sense, yes. Any amount of divisiveness this template may cause is necessary. To be blunt, all userbox templates will have some degree of divisiveness attached to them, even something as simple as {{user Salad}}, because not everyone shares the same viewpoint. I do not believe this template to be exceptionally divisive, nor do I believe it to be T1 criteria. That is what I mean - when expressing an opinion, some amount of "divisiveness" is strictly necessary. When it becomes detrimental to the project, then it becomes an issue. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:43, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You admit it is divisive, and T1 says divisive userboxes should be speedied. Thus the speedy is valid by you argument. --Doc ask? 02:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • T1 says that userboxes that are clearly divisive should be deleted. I argue that this template is not divisive, and any divisiveness that arises from it is strictly necessary. Also, I do not endorse T1 - I honestly don't care if Jimbo has. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 02:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So let met get this right, you're advocating undeleting it because you don't agree with existing policy? --MarkSweep (call me collect) 08:12, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User disBush

Deleted during active TFD here Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_11#Template:User_disBush. It was runnig +5 keep last time I looked.--God of War 19:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep deleted per WP:CSD, WP:NOT, WP:JIMBO. And, by the way, there's no such thing as "+5 keep". TFD is not a vote, it's a debate. Just because someone adds "Super Strong Speedy KEEP" doesn't mean they've actually addressed the criteria set out on WP:TFD, as required in a TfD debate. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 20:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It always was appropriate to speedy these, and now we even have explicit clarification on the point, thanks to Jimbo. Keep Deleted. --Improv 20:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • My thanks, Improv, for making me regret having supported your nomination for ArbCom. --Daniel 21:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Eh, we have an explicit caveat not to go on deletion sprees just because an admin thinks a template is divisive. We don't have an explicit clarification that it's perfectly acceptable to ignore process and consensus and disrupt Wikipedia by engaging in mass deletions of userboxes of which it is somebody's subjective opinion that it is divisive. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all templates which criticize or disparage their subjects. I see no evidence of wheel warring. — Knowledge Seeker দ 20:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. Its deletion was both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 21:03, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Divisive. David | Talk 21:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Gees. All it said was "this user dislikes Bush" or words to that effect. I do not understand how that is divisive or inflammatory, or anti-encyclopedia, or whatever the reasoning is. It is a simple opinion. It is not a personal attack. It is, in fact, one of the more basic political opinions an American is likely to have (most either like or dislike Bush, with some not caring either way). --Fang Aili 22:57, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • But why should anyone on Wikipedia care if a user likes/dislikes Mr. Bush? It's an unwelcome intrusion of real-life partisanship that has no relevance to who you are as a Wikipedian. Wikipedians are encouraged to organize by skills and interests, because that'll actually help us write an encyclopedia. But what skills can we attribute to someone who claims that they like or dislike Mr. Bush? And what interests? For those genuinely interested in politics, there already are Wikiprojects which they can join, as well as templates for coordinating project activities. Anyone who's not interested in politics and simply wants to tell the world about their opinions on Mr. Bush is free to start a blog elsewhere. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 23:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Whining about the "intrusion of real-life partisanship" on Wikipedia (and I take it, the "intrusion" of real life) does not make Wikipedia any less tied to real people and real issues - because, no matter how much you may wish it were true, we're not zombies or robots who work merely to stoke Jimbo and a few of his admins' egos.
    • You want to talk about the intrusion of partisanship onto Wikipedia, then write a letter to the members of Congress who dispatched their staffs to vandalize their Wikipedia entries telling them to go Cheney themselves. I take it you haven't, because that was never your real agenda to begin with. --Daniel 01:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User pacifist3

File:Peace Sign.svg This user thinks pacifists make good target practice.

on the tfd for user pacifist, here, there were 30 keep votes to 19 delete votes. A Strong majority to keep. However User:Splash has closed the afd as a No Consensus. He then went to Speedy delete the box claming it was divisive. Cleary the TFD has proven that the community thinks this userbox is not divisive. Please Undelete this.--God of War 19:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User opposes ubx screwing

This appears to be a mistaken deletion. The text of the userbox didn't appear to be divisive/inflammatory as Physchim62, who deleted it, said. The creator may correct me, but it could have meant that that user didn't want to see userboxes vandalized or added to their userpage without permission, rather than the whole userbox debate. --D-Day 19:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User GWB2

See the TFD here Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_9#Template:User_GWB2. Even though there was a consensus to keep, someone has deleted the history then re-created this as re-direct to a far less clever userbox that has since been speedily deleted.--God of War 20:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User-AmE-0

This template is in TfD discussions, with around 75-80% consensus to keep. Unfortunately, the administrator User:Doc glasgow, (*unsubstantiated personal attack removed*), decided to unilaterally speedy it. Naturally, I re-instated it as it is a template in TfD. Once again, the said administrator put the page in , violating the categories own usage policy as well as several others. There is no justification for speedy deletion when it is in TfD with consensus to keep, and there is certainly no justification in protecting the page. Deano (Talk) 17:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Anti-UN

This user does not support the United Nations.

This template was deleted despite an overwhelming number of the votes to keep (see here). What's more, after all votes were submitted, the Admin who started the deletion process, User:MarkSweep wrote, "The result of the debate was moot. This template was speedy deleted." An admin is implying that the process was irrelevant. I would like the deletion of this template to be reviewed and know if User:MarkSweep's conduct was appropriate for an admin.

Just to clarify: This is what I usually write when closing a discussion early after a speedy deletion, which, by the way, is standard procedure. The part about "The result of the debate was" is supplied by {{tfd top}}. All I did was add the word "moot" and an explanation of what had happened. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 09:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've userfied both boxes - see User:Userboxes/Anti-UN and User:Userboxes/Anti-ACLU. Thus, CSD T1 no longer applies, but users who wish to either subst: or transclude this content may still do so. (See the proposed policy at Wikipedia:Use of userboxes). This was done in order to avoid the necessity for another lengthy debate rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Can we please avoid yet more tedious, repetitious discussions and get back to writing an encyclopedia? I'm getting sick and tired of this nonsense. Frankly, Wikipedia just isn't fun any more, and I'm not sure how much of my time I want to devote to a community divided by such petty squabbling. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 07:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. I like Crotalus horridus' compromise. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Such an action should be taken on an en masse scale, and after achieving general consensus for such a move (I'd endorse it, for one), not in a piecemeal, haphazard fashion, and such a decision should be reached on the TfD debate, not on Deletion Review (which is only here to review the deletion, not to recommend third options that should really have been discussed on the TfD). Otherwise, we risk not only causing more chaos and disorder as anti-userbox admins get out of control with userfying whatever templates they happen to personally dislike, but also risk causing a lot of unnecessary revert-wars and POV problems: why does "anti-UN" need to be userfied, while "pro-UN" is perfectly fine on the templatespace? The only message that sends is that Wikipedia itself is pro-UN. We need to make such a move for all user templates, or for none of them. I'd support doing it for them all, but this is not really the correct place to start such a large-scale move. All we're discussing here is this TfD and current policy, which quite clearly shows that the speedy-deletion was out-of-line and that a full TfD discussion is in order (even if the ultimate result of that discussion is userfication). That's the only way to keep both sides of the matter happy, and to make it clear that users' opinions aren't being ignored and their views arbitrarily and unnecessarily censored. Speedy-deletes like this serve only to escalate the disunity and factionalization of the community, and should not be tolerated even if the userbox itself merits deletion. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then the correct vote would be "Overturn" and then, once it is overturned, to vote "Delete" (or even "Speedy Delete", if you think it's both inflammatory and divisive, not merely "unhelpful") on the reopened TfD vote. This is a discussion of process, not of the template itself: if the template isn't clearly and obviously meriting speedy-delete at this point in time (and it's not, as shown by the number of "overturn" votes here and "keep" votes there), it deserves a full-run of discussion to iron out the details and discuss this matter to a satisfying amount. Stifling debate here won't serve either side's interest (and will only serve to further polarize the community, emphasizing that there are two distinct sides and that one has no interest in listening or responding to what the other has to say). Discussion keeps a consensus-run editing community healthy, and forbidding a full discussion over this matter by endorsing out-of-process, unilateral, undiscussed speedy-deletion will only cause more damage and discontent amont Wikipedia's valuable editors, thus ultimately harming the encyclopedia. What's so wrong with letting the TfD run its course? -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The purpose of these templates is to self-identify and show in a clear way what biases a user has, not to further an agenda or "contact one another and organise" (which I've always thought was a rather flimsy, and somewhat melodramatic and paranoid (and thus not assuming good faith), argument against userboxes; it will be rather obvious if anyone attempts to use userboxes to stuff votes or "cluster" and factionalize, so it will be (and has been) both very rare and pretty easy to prevent). We have "anti-racism" templates; are those equally inappropriate? Why is it perfectly fine to support the UN, but not to say that you don't support the UN—or any other major, global organization for that matter? Isn't it much more POVed to say "Wikipedians can only be positive of the UN" than it is to let people identify where they stand on the matter? Additionally, are you basing your vote on the speedy-deletion criterion and current Wikipedia userbox policies, and on careful analysis of the actual discussion preceding this out-of-process speedy-delete, or are you basing it on your personal opposition to anti-UN (or "anti-anything") sentiment? We have "anti-Marxist" userboxes that noone seems to object to. Is there anything really so wrong with an "anti-" opinion, as long as it's directed at a philosophy or organization or major public figure that is relevant to the POVs and beliefs of the Wikipedian? I don't see what the big deal is. There's little difference between the pro-side and the anti-side of a debate; it's merely a matter of terminology. Two sides of the same coin. Censoring one side and thus implicitly endorsing the other side is a bad practice that will get Wikipedia in more trouble than if it simply lets these things be. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correct, "TfD is not strictly a vote"—it's a discussion. Noone made an argument for why the template should be speedy-deleted, and obviously many people disagree that this template qualifies as "divisive" and "inflammatory", so even if you feel personally that it is both divisive and inflammatory, the correct place to discuss those matters is on a TfD. The job of an admin who is closing a TfD vote is to interpret the discussion, not to voice his own opinion in complete, unilateral disregard for the entire discussion! If you're an admin and believe strongly that a template currently undergoing TfD discussion should be speedy-deleted, then the correct course of action is to vote, not to immediately speedy-delete it without any support whatsoever and without anyone having even brought up the matter of whether speedy-delete is applicable here (which it happens to not be, incidentally; this template is not strictly "inflammatory", it's quite courteous and inoffensive). Even if the TfD keep votes were accompanied by flawed reasoning, the correct response is to point out that flaw by responding to the votes, not to simply ignore them all! and assume that dozens of users are ignorant, irrelevant cattle and only your opinion is relevant, not anyone else's. All of this should be discussed in the TfD, and then it should be speedy-deleted if and only if the arguments for it end up being more markedly compelling than the arguments against it. TfD is not a vote, but it's also not a battle over which side has the most admins: it's. a. discussion. So let's discuss whether it qualifies for a speedy-delete (or a delete at all), not bully each other around with admin-privilege abuses. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no current speedy-deletion criterion that says "all POV usertemplates should be speedy-deleted", thus your vote currently seems to rely on faulty logic that is based in personal opinion rather than interpretation of any policy; if this is not the case and you are alluding to some specific, approved policy that endorses speedy-deleting all POVed userboxes, I apologize. But that is not currently the case. Userboxes are used in userspace, not articlespace, and thus do not fall under the "NPOV" requirements (or the NOR requirements, for that matter, which would require the deletion of all userspace) for the same reason Usercategories (Category:Wikipedians) don't. You are trying to circumvent process in this case on a technicality, adhering to the letter rather than to the spirit of Wikipedia's guidelines and rules. -Silence 17:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. WP:TfD makes clear that POV is a deletion criteria. Thus this should be deleted. TfD debates are failing to enforce policy, but there is little point in restoring a template that meets the deletion criteria. Further, WP:NOT a soapbox. --Doc ask? 23:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. This is not a review of the template, it's a review of the process, and it is absurdly clear that this deletion was very poorly-done: see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_against_Iraq_War_2 (and the Anti-UN vote, of course) for details. Not a single user had voted for "speedy delete", no one had brought up why and how it might be "divisive" or "inflammatory", there was at the time a consensus to keep, the discussion had barely just begun (with a whole week of time for people who felt the template merited deletion to discuss the matter), and even the people who voted "delete" did not vote "speedy". If those voters were mistaken or misinformed or unaware of the new deletion criterion, then the correct next step to take would be to vote and explain your view, arguing for speedy-delete and then waiting to see if your argument gains support or if valid counter-arguments are made—and there are certainly some very strong possible arguments one could make to demonstrate that "This user does not support the United Nations" is probably not all that divisive, and certainly not in any way inflammatory! It's practically stale, it's so impersonal! The new speedy-delete criterion was created for templates like "This user hates Jews" or "This user wants all Americans to die", not grey-area templates like "This user opposes the UN" (which was only created as a balance to "This user supports the UN", to appease NPOV and show that Wikipedia isn't exclusively for UN supporters!; if this template is 'divisive', than that one surely has to be equally divisive, unless it would be OK to say 'This user supports capital punishment' but not 'This user opposes capital punishment')! So, while it might possibly be applied to this template, certainly it's not such a clear-cut case that we can't even permit any discussion of the matter, but just have to shove all the dozens of dissenting opinions into the gutter without so much as a response, just with a dismissive "everyone else is wrong"! What on earth does that accomplish, sacrificing users' faith in the system and in Wikipedia's openness just to get a dinky little userbox deleted today rather than four days from now? Somewhat of a pyrrhic victory, even for those who hate all userboxes; process is only a means to an end, sure, but in this case ignoring process (and ignoring, not just all votes, but all discussion, in favor of immediate speedy-delete) is more damaging to the goals of Wikipedia than, as it can only serve to alienate and further divide and factionalize this community. For Wikigod's sake, let the TfD discussion run its course! What's so terrible and unacceptable about letting people talk this over? -Silence 17:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete/relist Expressing a common POV in dispassionate language is not inflammatory, as I understand the meaning of that word. Saying "User opposes X", where X is the normal name of a major political entity or cause is always fine. Saying "User opposes Nazi, slimy, evil, X" is not. It's simple. This user emphatically supports the UN, incidentally. Xoloz 17:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and relist POV is not illegal, and speedying during a TfD is really annoying. If the discussion is going towards "delete" why not let it run? If it is going to "keep" then the speedying is completely inappropriate! Stop speedying everything!. There is no point of having a TfD discussion if people are just going to speedy things in the middle of it - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 17:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, and now clarified as appropriate to speedy by the new criteria as per Jimbo's dictum. --Improv 18:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all templates which criticize or disparage their subjects. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This template neither criticizes nor disparages its subject. Read the contents: "This user does not support the United Nations." It's a statement of fact (the fact being what the user's opinion of the UN is) to make explicit a POV of the user in order, and is perfectly civil and entirely non-inflammatory. More importantly, even if you want it deleted, the speedy-delete was out of line and violated consensus and the TfD discussion, misinterpreted TfD policy (assuming that "inflammatory" simply means "not positive", which is obviously not the case), and contradicts common sense. If I wanted this template deleted, I'd vote to "undelete and relist" and then vote to "delete" at the relisted TfD; not even giving it a TfD discussion even though it's truly not an especially objectionable template (for god's sake, we gave "This user hates Jews" an entire week of in-depth discussion!) is clearly unacceptable. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are different shades of criticism, and this is more subtle than most, which is nice. Still, I feel that any of these templates which express negative views do not belong (and actually many of the ones with positive views, as well). If your preferred method of keeping material deleted is to vote to undelete and relist and then vote to delete at TfD, that is your prerogative; I prefer to simply vote to keep deleted here. I understand that you feel that these actions are unacceptable; however, please realize that there others, including me, who feel it to be quite acceptable. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. The Land 19:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are plenty of ways. They make explicit a POV of the user, allowing others to better understand that user's perspective and basic assumptions. They allow users to self-express their views in a constructive way that does not damage the encyclopedia, encouraging them to use their userpage to voice their opinions rather than using articles to voice their opinions (and push their POVs). They make it clear that Wikipedia does itself have a POV on these issues (a problem that arises from letting people have a "This user supports the UN" and forbidding them to have a "This user does not support the UN" template, implying that Wikipedia itself supports the UN and does not condone anti-UN (or even non-pro-UN, since the template's content says "doesn't support", not "opposes"!) sentiment). If the problem here is with POV templates, then both sides of the POV should be deleted, not just one; but even if that's so, it should be deleted through the TfD process, not through unilateral vigilante action in complete disregard for both consensus and discussion. This is about an improper, admin-privileges-abusing speedydelete that misinterpreted the meaning of the word "inflammatory", not about the userbox itself, which is what the TfD discussion is there for. Even if you personally think all userboxes should be deleted, or all anti-X templates should be deleted, that is not current Wikipedia policy, and voting based on that rather than on an interpretation of the vote, discussion, speedy-delete action, and current TfD policies is inappropriate. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why bother? "Consensus" is the biggest joke at wikipedia. Vote any way you want, discuss until the cows come home. If King Jimbo wants it gone, it's gone, and will stay gone, regardless of what anyone else thinks. --Kbdank71 19:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, not useful, carefully enumerating things you don't like, for no apparent reason, is effectively trolling, in that it's only plausible effect is to draw a negative response from others. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem here is that if there was a major global movement that strongly opposed the UN as its foundational message, let's say "Movement X", and we made a userbox saying "This user supports Movement X", an "only pro-X, no anti-X!" belief would cause you to let the userbox remain, and would make it impossible to in any way criticize Movement X ("This user doesn't support Movement X" would be deleted), even though Movement X would be essentially synonymous with "not supporting the UN". In other words, the only difference between pro-X and anti-X is terminological and semantic; speedy-deleting something just because it says "...doesn't support..." is absurd. Not supporting, or opposing, an organization can be just as significant and noteworthy. For example, "atheism" is defined in the negative; it is a movement that is inherently a lack of something. If we didn't have a word for "atheism" and just had to say "This user doesn't support God" or similar, would that suddenly change it from being appropriate to inappropriate? Entirely on a semantic basis? There shouldn't have to be a word or term for opposing something just to allow there to be a userbox; the basis should be whether the sentiment is noteworthy ("This user doesn't support his best friend Greg" wouldn't be a noteworthy enough view to bother with a general-use userbox), meaningful ("This user doesn't support parsley" wouldn't provide a meaningful enough distinction between users), and non-abusive ("This user doesn't support the UN because they're assholes" would be incivil and would qualify for 'inflammatory and divisive' deletion, unlike this template). There's simply no reason to speedy-delete this template, anymore than there is to do so for any other user-template; as such, even if it's deleted, it should not be speedy-deleted, or at least not speedy-deleted until that option has been discussed on TfD, with pros and cons being provided for both options. There's no justification for tossing aside TfD here, as there's obviously a significant enough dispute over whether this truly qualifies for speedy-deletion to permit a TfD discussion over that option, which is what was happening just fine, and should have continued to happen, and still should be permitted to happen. Otherwise, the entire VfD process is meaningless and arbitrary, the deletion criteria are a joke, and whether or not something is deleted is the result of a coin-flip, not of a reasoned, in-depth discussion. Sad. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ignore. The userbox war has spread to every corner of Wikipedia, and bogged down every process it's come near. I say wait until there is a workable consensus on the whole issue before deleting, undeleting, nominating, using, editing or even reading any userboxen. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 20:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not about the userbox war. The situation would be the same for any template: speedy-deletion should not be a tool for admins to use to circumvent any meaningful discussion and avoid having to bother to try to convince anyone else that they're right when they know they already are; the discussion clearly did not indicate a "speedy-delete", and if the voters were misinformed or their discussion faulty, a counter-argument should have been made before the discussion was abruptly cut off. The same would be true for any template, article, category, or page at all. Discussion is helpful, not harmful. I agree with you that we should stop bothering with these ridiculous individual nominations until a policy exists for userboxes, but that doesn't mean we should let admins abuse the system to arbitrarily attack specific templates that have a strong consensus for "keep". This is about the TfD process, not about userboxes, as Deletion Review is a review of the deletion process, discussion, policies, etc. more than of the specific page that happened to be deleted. -Silence 20:56, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I disagree. I don't see that this would have been deleted absent the userbox war. There are tigers on the loose and I think it will only make matters worse if we start RfCs and other arguments before we have actually come to some agreement on the core issue; theese are not "rogue admins" they are editors with a strong opinion following their consciences and using the tools with which the community has entrusted them. Maybe that means we are too lax in handing out admin powers, but until the dust has settled I think these individual debates are, as you suggest above, sterile and unhelpful. I don't have a strong view either way right now although I lean towards the exclusion of divisive userboxen, but I don't see that we can fix the problem by deleting or undeleting anything right now. So let's make a list of the ones which are contentious, deleted or not, and revisit the whole lot once a workable consensus has been reached. It's not like the project will be brought down by the absence of a template saying that a user does or does not support the UN. I might be wrong here, but then again I might not. Now look at me - engaging in philosophical arguments in DRV, exactly like I said we shold not. See how the disute is infesting the project? I'm going to unwatch this page, I think. Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 11:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it means we're too lax in handing out admin powers. I think we're too lax about retracting them from individuals who choose to use their powers on the basis of whims rather than as dictated by site policy or voter consensus. If this keeps up, we'll end up regressing into delete/undelete wars between administrators. Sarge Baldy 11:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I am now the proud creator of the Userbox:Anti ACLU and Userbox:Anti UN. These pages are NOT templates and therefore are NOT subject to TEMPLATE POLICIES. They are now displayed in the appropriate place on Wikipedia:Userboxes/Regional Politics and Wikipedia:Userboxes/Beliefs#Politics, respectively. You know I must admit, I am a terrible programmer and much thanks is owed to User:MarkSweep who decided to edit what I posted to his talkpage without telling me. Without that, I wouldn't have learned how to make these pages. Down with Userbox Templates! Long live Userbox Code! Thanks, Mark!  :-) Lawyer2b 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. - If anybody thinks there is a mistake in the coding syntax, PLEASE PLEASE fix it. I suck. Lawyer2b 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That doesn't work; it's been discussed and shot down as an innappropriate compromise and an attempt to game the system. I've tried it, Crotalus horridus has tried it, and the overall consensus that was developed is that, for the purposes of CSD, any page designed to be transcluded is by defination, a template. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 02:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and Undelete not because i second its idea but because i am against this kind of administrative abuse. First of all, the admin should not use speedy delete when most votes favor keeping. At least, he/she should wait till the end of the week. Second, we should decide to delete or undelete according to the votes not according to the admin's point of view in the debate. As you may have noticed, two or maybe three admins are continuously suggesting userboxes for deletion, then the debate on the userbox is usually seen as moot by the same admins. This is an unacceptable abuse. Third, userboxes differ than wikipedia articles. Most of them express personal attitudes or interests.Thus, they all may be considered divisive in one way or another. Deletion must be merely based on votes. The number of votes can be considered as the result of the debate from users' point of view. I am suggesting a new user box to be added to Wikipedia:Userboxes/Wikipedia : "This user is against admin abuse". what do you think? --Wedian 03:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused, User:MarkSweep. This whole time you have been deleting divisive templates under policy that regulates them. However, your above statement is a warning not to create divisive userboxes period. From what official policy does that warning originate? Lawyer2b 03:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User Anti-ACLU

This user does not support the ACLU.

This template was deleted despite an overwhelming number of the votes to keep (see here). What's more, after all votes were submitted, the Admin who started the deletion process, User:MarkSweep wrote, "The result of the debate was moot. This template was speedy deleted." An admin is implying that the process was irrelevant. I would like the deletion of this template to be reviewed and know if User:MarkSweep's conduct was appropriate for an admin.

Just to clarify: This is what I usually write when closing a discussion early after a speedy deletion, which, by the way, is standard procedure. The part about "The result of the debate was" is supplied by {{tfd top}}. All I did was add the word "moot" and an explanation of what had happened. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 09:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. (Apologies for the top-posting.) I have been reviewing WP:TFD, and it appears to me that User:MarkSweep "proposes" things he wants deleted, then after a short time period just Speedy-Deletes them anyway, regardless of any consensus or debate. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_participant_userbox_war & Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:user_yellow_amer. Sct72 23:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I've userfied both boxes - see User:Userboxes/Anti-UN and User:Userboxes/Anti-ACLU. Thus, CSD T1 no longer applies, but users who wish to either subst: or transclude this content may still do so. (See the proposed policy at Wikipedia:Use of userboxes). This was done in order to avoid the necessity for another lengthy debate rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Can we please avoid yet more tedious, repetitious discussions and get back to writing an encyclopedia? I'm getting sick and tired of this nonsense. Frankly, Wikipedia just isn't fun any more, and I'm not sure how much of my time I want to devote to a community divided by such petty squabbling. Crotalus horridus (TALK • CONTRIBS) 07:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. I like Crotalus horridus' compromise. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion while no fan of unilateralism, this template does nothing to either help us write a better encyclopedia or support our efforts to demostrate our obligation to WP:NPOV.--MONGO 10:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per TfD. While I'm not a fan of userboxes, especially this one (see my sig), consensus indicates that they want it to stay. I would vote delete on a TfD but I wouldn't delete against the wishes of the community. —BorgHunter ubx (talk) 15:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and block MarkSweep for repeated disruption of Wikipedia.  Grue  16:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. We don't need a mechanism by which editors with a pronounced anti-ACLU (or anti-anything) bias can contact one another and organise. --Tony Sidaway 16:16, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Inappropriate; TfD is not strictly a vote; and most of the "keep" "votes" did not conform to TfD "voting"/discussion policy. Monicasdude 16:24, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted POV template. --Doc ask? 16:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete/relist Expressing a common POV in dispassionate language is not inflammatory, as I understand the meaning of that word. Saying "User opposes X", where X is the normal name of a major political entity or cause is always fine. Saying "User opposes Nazi, slimy, evil, X" is not. It's simple. By the way, I am a Guardian of Liberty with the ACLU (I've named them in my will), and I accept this as perfectly legitimate. Xoloz 17:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. TfD is a discussion, not a vote; ergo, since the discussion was overwhelmingly in favor of keeping at the time, since just about none of the arguments of the keep-voters had yet been addressed, and since nobody in the entire discussion had at the time suggested a "speedy-delete" or argued for why the template might be both "inflammatory" and "divisive" (the latter, certainly, seems like a very, very big stretch, and an extremely loose interpretation of "inflammatory" that seems contradictory to Jimbo's comments and the purpose of the new speedy-deletion criterion), it was completely inappropriate to throw all of the discussion into the gutter without even taking the time to first recommend that it be speedy-deleted and see what counter-arguments people could supply, then decide whether to delete or not! This is clear abuse of process, and clearly will cause more harm to Wikipedia than if we simply let the TfD discussion run its course and didn't involve this whole other ridiculous extra level of bureaucracy and controversy just because some admins don't feel like bothering to talk to the lowly non-admins who voted before annihilating a template they personally dislike! If the template said "This user thinks that the ACLU is a scumsucking Satanspawn", the speedy would be understandable; but just not supporting an organization is not "inflammatory", and even the case that it's "divisive" is not as black-and-white as its being made out to be; grey-area templates like this are exactly what TfD discussions are for, so even if you think this template should be deleted, userfied, or whatever, you should still vote to overturn this deletion and let the template be given the proper amount of time. Otherwise, we just set up a precedent where any user-template that an admin dislikes can be speedied, without providing any argument whatsoever first and completely disregarding the entire vote and discussion, making it an utter waste of time to even bother to voice your opinion or argue for your interpretation of TfD policy; you'll just be ignored if any admin disagrees with you—that admin will simply override everyone's votes rather than providing a counter-argument. TfD will change from a discussion of templates to a "which side has the most admins to muscle the other side around"; that's not a good thing. Why stir up such a hornet's-nest of contentious, divisive disputes and edit-warring over such a ridiculous matter when we could simply let the discussion over a silly old colored rectangular box-o'-POV run its course, then decide what to do? The benefits of speedy-deletion do not, in this case, outweigh the harm it will cause. -Silence 17:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, harmful to the project. Stop poisoning the well. --Improv 18:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all templates which criticize or disparage their subject. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. The Land 19:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted, per all the above. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong overturn and keep. People with minority views should not have those views suppressed by the majority. I believe the ACLU itself would fight for such a principle. I am reminded of the saying "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it. ". StuRat 00:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion Trödel&#149;talk 02:54, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn per TfD, userfy per WP:UUB. —Andux␅ 06:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete. Deleting against consensus is vandalism. Sarge Baldy 06:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all userboxes, this one included. --Cyde Weys 07:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn We need more userboxes, not less Larix 09:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong overturn Things should not be speedied during Tfd, its really anoying. Stop speedying everything and actually see the TfD process through. Im sure that if there is a pro-ACLU template, it isnt up for deletion. You either have both sides of the argument up for deletion, or neither - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 10:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete The ACLU would want this template undeleted. But. Also. Seriously, it's harmless. User:Adrian/zap2.js 11:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Overturn. "Not helpful to building the encyclopaedia" is not a speedy deletion criteria. Many people believe this is neither "inflamatory" nor "devisive" and nobody has presented any counter arguments why it is, so criteria T1 does not apply. Thryduulf 12:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • undelete disclosing POVs keeps people honest and accoutable for their edits on subjects they have a POV on. Userboxes like this one allow users to do this voluntarally. accoutability is a good thing. FREE THE USERBOX!Mike McGregor (Can) 13:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and Undelete - Wikipedia is run by consensus - not admins that know what's best for us.--God of War 20:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Divisive. David | Talk 21:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn and relist, not divisive in any way. To clarify, if this is divisive (putting off those who support the ACLU to the point where they will not work with those who have the template, an assumption that requires that said people have very thin skins indeed), then supporting the ACLU is equally divisive in the other direction. And it is equally divisive; that is to say, it isn't divisive at all. Knowing about another editor's POV doesn't preclude working with that editor in the case of disagreement; to the contrary, I, a Protest Warrior, have worked very closely with Schuminweb, a Black Bloc anarchist, on articles that are of great and conflicting interest to us both, specifically the anti-war and counter-inauguration protests of last year, to great success. Me knowing that he's an anarchist and him knowing that I'm one of those annoying guys on the line telling them to sit down and shut up while they're out running around threatening to break things did not hinder us at all. If we can work together on such a subject when we disagree in almost every particular on it, surely people who know that they have a slight difference of opinion over one or two issues won't suddenly stop speaking because of it. Rogue 9 09:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User against Iraq War

This admin is deleting templates without a consensus for deletion and adding speedy delete tags to userboxes which are already under discussion. This has resulted in the speedy deletion of several userboxes. This is censorship and an abuse of admin power. It is vandalism, and I put up a notice on Vandalism in Progress about him, though it was removed. --Revolución (talk) 20:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Voting in a vacuum I'd support this without having to see the content. The title itself is clearly divisive, presenting an obvious POV without telling others "I can help you based on my expertise." But I must say... admins should remember how much it sucks for a non-admin to see admins making sudden decisions out of process. It seems TonyS deleted this, and I have voted in favour of his deletions here, but I do want to emphasize how annoying it is when fD gets ignored because some admin was "in that mood." It really does suck. You vote yay or nay on some fD page (or maybe you're just watching) and then you realize an admin can speedy and haul it over here (where, largely, only admins comment) regardless of any emerging consensus on the relevant fD page. Thus, I don't think I support Revolucion's ideas here, but I see his frustration. Marskell 21:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete The concensus apparently reached was "speedy delete". However, looking through the discussion, nobody had suggested a speedy deletion, and that the huge majority of people voted keep. If this is going to happen all the time, why dont we just abolish discussions? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 22:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted when discussions go directly against policy then admins have the responsibility to follow the policy even if that is out of process - process is to support policy not create an environment to individually ignore/overturn policy when it suits a specific group of users. Trödel&#149;talk 22:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete and RFC the admins responsible what is the point of having a Tfd process if admins just arbitrarily delete templates they happen to dislike Cynical 22:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted TfD is broken. Speedies are exceptional deletion criteria that do not require to establish consensus. --Doc ask? 22:49, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't go there. Wait until the userbox debate is finished, then consider them all en bloc. This whole busienss is taking over the entire project. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] 22:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've created the template in my own userspace. The fascists here will probably try to censor it again, but I won't let them. --Revolución (talk) 23:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete as per Vargher Mike McGregor (Can) 23:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire, as per Vargher. Five article edits and 60 user page edits illustrate his misconceptions: Wikipedia is NOT a blog, free hosting service, or billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs. MySpace and Blogspot are that-a-way if that's what he wants; this place is supposed to be a freaking encyclopedia. --Calton | Talk 00:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Someone's in the dark. The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! Just look at the Politics and Beliefs section, with userboxes advocating Taiwan independence and various other little things. Userboxes are the expression of our personal beliefs, and have caught on like wildifre on many user pages. Clearly the "this is an encyclopeida" is moot, as is the personal attack against the user in question. - Hbdragon88 04:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Someone's in the dark. True -- but it's not me. Check out User:Vargher's contributions: compare all edits with article edits: Time and edits enough to create/install 79 or so user boxes, and only enough time for 5 article edits. Do you understand the point, or are diagrams required?
      • The entire WP:UBX project is littered with personal beliefs! I need to ask: did the "Mom! [my brother/my sister/the next-door-neighbor's kid] does it!" rationale work when you were a child? No? Why should it work now? --Calton | Talk 06:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • The sheer number of userboxes on UBX shows that userboxes are here to stay and that they are being used as a medium to express opinions. You wrote that Wikipedia is not a "billboard for promoting one's personal beliefs." The userboxes project proves otherwise. Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. - Hbdragon88 21:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Don't throw the "They do it!" argument at me. Why? Are you disavowing it now? Because, you know, that's precisely what you're saying; your handwaving and sputtering about numbers doesn't change what's at the core of your argument. --Calton | Talk 02:42, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Valid deletion per CSD T.1. Ignore all opinions here based on out-of-process arguments such as "censorship" or "free speech". --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. Its deletion was both divisive and inflammatory. --Daniel 02:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not right wing pv pimping... he has gone after boxes that the right would support as well. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    If "he" in this instance refers to me, my political compass readings are as follows:
    Economic Left/Right: -8.75
    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69
    The accusations of edit warring, vandalism and whatnot are equally fatuous. --Tony Sidaway 10:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn. I do not agree with the message, but I will fight for the right to say it. IMHO I think speedy is beng abused by admins who can't get consensus. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extremely Strong, Emphatic Overturn - The constant speedy deletion and vandalism of userboxes bya small number of admins has got to stop, and it has to stop immediately. This template must be restored and an RfC started. This is getting to the point, or perhaps beyond the point, of de-adminship for trolling and incessant WP:POINT violations. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 06:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted all user boxes which disparage or criticize their subject. Needlessly divisive and inflammatory. This is an encyclopedia. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:31, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted the deletion of this template WAS disruption of Wikipedia, however this userbox sucks and I almost deleted it myself when I saw it on TfD.  Grue  07:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Deletion This is hilarious. 1) I'm one of the ones who should feel inflamed and felt cut off from his fellow wikipedian by this "inflammatory and divisive" template because I totally disagree with it. The only thing is...I'M NOT! I enjoy hearing a opposite point of view and respect those who have them. I wish people would stop chicken-littling that wikipedia is going to end if people have POV's on their user pages. Edit wars don't start over that, they start over what's in ARTICLES. 2) Although I personally think free speech is a good enough reason to keep, I'm one of the few people who posted what I think are "wikipedia project-related" reasons why these templates are good, which User:MarkSweep "swept under the rug" by not responding. I said, "this template lets users know you have a strong personal opinion regarding a subject, that you may be interested in editing articles related to it, and may be source of information regarding what adherents to that opinion believe." 3) I say deleting these templates is moot because it's just a big exercise in masturbation. Your big reason for deleting them is that you don't want "divisive, inflammatory POV" on userpages? Well, if you delete them, people will just use the raw code (or prose!) to recreate them on their userpages. What then? Lawyer2b 07:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I can't help but chuckle. Those Admins who want all these "nasty POV Templates" deleted to keep the wikicommunity together coudln't have created more bitterness and division with their actions if they tried. Pray tell gentlemen...will the beatings continue until morale improves? Lawyer2b 08:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Restore in the user namespace. (Second choice: Keep deleted.) I like Crotalus horridus' compromise that was used in some of the other DRV debates. Banish userboxes not directly related to the encyclopedia from the template namespace, but keep them in user namespace so they can be transcluded if necessary. I used to think this would die down on its own, but I'm honestly fed up with Wikipedia. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm seriously considering leaving, and I doubt Wikipedia will continue on for much longer if things remain like this. Johnleemk | Talk 10:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion while no fan of unilateralism, this template does nothing to either help us write a better encyclopedia or support our efforts to demostrate our obligation to WP:NPOV.--MONGO 10:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete.helohe (talk) 13:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted POV template. --Doc ask? 16:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn and Relist. This is not a review of the template, it's a review of the process; TfD is for discussion of whether templates should be deleted, and Deletion Review is for reviewing whether the deletion was merited at that point of time or not, not as a way to hide TfD revotes from the majority of voters whenever an admin gets frisky. It is absurdly clear that this deletion was very poorly-done: see the discussion at Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:User_against_Iraq_War_2 for details. Not a single user had voted for "speedy delete", no one had brought up why and how it might be "divisive" or "inflammatory", there was a large consensus to keep, and even the people who voted "delete" did not vote "speedy". If those voters were mistaken or misinformed or unaware of the , then the correct next step to take would be to vote and explain your view, arguing for speedy-delete and then waiting to see if your argument gains support. It is not to take abrupt and callously dismissive unilateral action, which has infinitely more potential to be divisive and offensive to the majority of users than some dinky little userbox ever could. What's going to drive valuable editors away is abuse of process like this and admins' apathy to it (as demonstrated by the number of "endorse" votes here), not ridiculous brightly-colored rectangles. Even if you believe this should be deleted (in fact, I personally wouldn't really mind such an outcome, after the TfD runs its course!), you should vote to overturn this so it can be given its proper length of time; if you believe it to be divisive and inflammatory (which a large number of people clearly do not, so this speedy-delete is disputed and merits a full vote!), then explain why. Whatever happened to these things being discussions rather than votes? Instead, it seems now that they're neither: both the votes themselves and the contents of the TfD are being completely disregarded simply because an admin disagrees with them (but apparently doesn't have enough respect for any of the voters to reply to their points and form a counter-argument, rather than using force to silence them). Pointless, controversial speedy-deletes like this are making the entire TfD process look like a silly little diversion for non-admins to waste their time on while admins just speedy-del whatever the hell they feel like rather than voting or commenting. It's contributing much more to the increasingly hostile, aggressive, and intolerant atmosphere around here than the userboxes themselves are! -Silence 16:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Divisive, this is not the place. --Improv 18:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. There is no way that 'I am against X' userboxes are helping create an encyclopedia. Therefore, given the problems they cause, we have to dispense with them. Furthermore, people who go round calling their opponents 'fascists' in this sort of debate do nothing to help their own cause. The Land 19:27, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Land, you and others arguing along this line fail to realize: Wikipedia is edited by people. People who happen to have their likes and dislikes. Userboxes that allow persons to associate as a group, or make their beliefs known, and which give them a sense of place within the Wikipedia project may not be considered encyclopedic by you, but they are encyclopedic for those who use them in that they provide a small measure of reward for our work.
In the end, you are the ones shooting yourselves in the feet. A volunteer project is only as good as its willingness to accomodate its volunteers. --Daniel 05:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jimbo has also discouraged going on a mass userbox deletion spree as counterproductive. --James S. 21:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User USA Police State

Taxman (talk · contribs) deleted it without a consensus. If I counted right, there are 29 keep votes and 18 delete votes (correct me if I missed some for either keep or delete). --Revolución (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • As an ardent opponent of this twit person, I do fear my country may become a police-state, but this template is clearly inflammatory. Summary deletion is appropriate, and I endorse it. (Note that I have no opinion on userboxes generally, working case-by-case.) Xoloz 19:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just recreate it. Only this time make a subst and a template. If certain people want to ignore rules, it's only a matter of time before everybody does. Karmafist 20:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually I restored it upon seeing the discussion. I stand by it clearly meeting the speedy deletion criteria, but more importantly, it having no positive value for Wikipedia. - Taxman Talk 21:02, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Uphold deletion. The template is divisive and unsuitable content for a userpage. Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox, nor a free webspace provider. Physchim62 (talk) 21:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete IMMEDIATELY No consensus was reached upon the deletion. If administrators will continue to implement a "delete first, think later" policy, Wikipedia will indeed resemble a police state. I refuse to acknowledge "Jimbo said so" as a valid argument for deletion. Jimbo Wales is the founder of Wikipedia, but WE are the community. WE build the encyclopedia, so WE decide. Vargher 21:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. I can see no reasonable connection between this template and our goal of writing an encyclopedia. Rossami (talk) 21:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Um, don't think think this is irrelevent? The question here is if the template was deleted correctly, and if not, whether it should be relisted. This template is one of many on the Userboxes project. The entire project could be considered to be irrelevent to writing an encyclopeida. The point I'm trying to make is that the relevence discussion and questions should be pointed there, not on a Deletion Review. - Hbdragon88 04:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist on TFD. Many user templates have nothing to do with writing an encyclopedia, that isn't a reason to speedy it. --Kbdank71 21:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted: useless dreck. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. Horrible nonsense. What is Wikipedia coming to when we need to debate whether to bin trash like this? --Tony Sidaway 21:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. Because that same argument could be used to, I don't know, close this very discussion right now as "Relist", or even "undelete". It causes wheel-wars. If that's what Wikipedia is coming to, you can have it. There are processes for a reason. Last I checked, it was King Jimbo, not King Taxman or King Tony. --Kbdank71 22:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist on TfD. We were forming a concensus about this template when Taxman deleted it. Let the TfD process go forward. --Fang Aili 21:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete There was no concensus met, and the discussion was going towards "keep" anyway! - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 22:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • That's a gross misrepresentation of the situation. The substantive debate was going towards "delete". Just because some people "voted to keep" doesn't change the fact that WP:TFD is a debate, in which participants are encouraged to put forth reasoned arguments. In fact, the instructions specifically state: "Please explain how, in your opinion, the template does not meet the criteria above. Comments such as "I like it," or "I find it useful," while potentially true, generally do not fulfill this requirement." If you choose not to participate in this debate by writing "Strong KEEP" followed by an irrelevant argument which does not address the template deletion criteria, that's entirely up to you. But don't misrepresent a bunch of irrelevant opinions as "consensus", just because they happen to include the word "keep" in boldface. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 06:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just you think someone's argument is irrelevant, doesnt mean it is. Many of the arguments put forward good points to keeping the userbox. Either way, speedying a template during a discussion is a really stupid and annoying thing to do, I just dont see what the point it. There is a reason why we have discussions, so why delete things half way through so people can no longer vote because they cannot see it? - • | Đܧ§§Ť | • T | C 21:14, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted per Tony Sidaway Trödel&#149;talk 22:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undelete per Dussst. This war will never end as long as admins continue to act arbitrarily. --Aaron 22:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted Nothing to do with writing an encyclopedia, it's only effects will be divisive and inflammatory. And by the way, "Jimmy said so" is a valid argument. Rx StrangeLove 22:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Undelete as per VargheMike McGregor (Can) 23:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Undelete This userbox is neither divisive nor inflammatory. Its deletion was both divisive and inflammatory. Daniel 00:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. --Calton | Talk 00:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted per CSD T.1. Ignore all out-of-process opinions based on personal animosity, "censorship", etc. --MarkSweep (call me collect) 01:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Expedient undelete. Template was deleted out of process despite ongoing discussion on TFD. Also recommend slapping Tony with a large whale. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 05:26, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This comment is inappropriate. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Quite frankly, I'm not concerned in the slightest that someone feels the comment is innappropriate. Tony's habit of speedy deleting userboxes that are undergoing discussion on TFD or have passed TFD because he "feels like it" is also innappropriate, and highly disruptive to the project, particularly as it often leads to wheel wars. When a template is being discussed on TFD, and Tony decides to "screw process" despite lack of consensus to do so... well, you get the picture. If an admin is ignorant that such actions are disruptive, they should not be trusted with admin privelages. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 01:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONG Delete. No explanation...just inflamatory remarks (AKA "trolling"). WP:IAR.Voice of AllT|@|ESP 05:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Overturn. IMHO I think speedy is beng abused by admins who can't get consensus. It may or may not be a police state, but a police wiki is in formation. Jwissick(t)(c) 06:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist - I feel that this one should be deleted, but it was far, far from consensus. Speedy deletion is not a toy. —Cuiviénen (Cuivië) 06:15, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted. This is an encyclopedia. Inflammatory or divisive templates have no place here. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep deleted I support userboxes in general, but this is just lame.  Grue  06:59, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overturn Deletion This is hilarious. 1) I'm one of the ones who should inflamed and felt cut off from his fellow wikipedian by this "inflammatory and divisive" template because I totally disagree with it. The only thing is...I'M NOT! I enjoy hearing a opposite point of view and respect those who have them. I wish people would stop chicken-littling that wikipedia is going to end if people have POV's on their user pages. Edit wars don't start over that, they start over what's in ARTICLES. 2) Although I personally think free speech is a good enough reason to keep, I'm one of the few people who posted what I think are "wikipedia project-related" reasons why these templates are good, which User:MarkSweep "swept under the rug" by not responding. I said, "this template lets users know you have a strong personal opinion regarding a subject, that you may be interested in editing articles related to it, and may be source of information regarding what adherents to that opinion believe." 3) I say deleting these templates is moot because it's just a big exercise in masturbation. Your big reason for deleting them is that you don't want "divisive, inflammatory POV" on userpages? Well, if you delete them, people will just use the raw code (or prose!) to recreate them on their userpages. What then? Lawyer2b 07:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I can't help but chuckle. Those Admins who want all these "nasty POV Templates" deleted to keep the wikicommunity together coudln't have created more bitterness and division in it with their actions if they tried. Pray tell gentlemen...will the beatings continue until morale improves? Lawyer2b 08:19, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Template:User admins ignoring policy

Template was listed on TFD and closed on February tenth as NO CONSENSUS by User:Splash. However, User:Tony Sidaway saw fit to delete it as T1 after this decision was made. I recommend that this template be undeleted. --Blu Aardvark | (talk) | (contribs) 05:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • That is a load of rubbish. There is never going to be an objective way to say a userbox is "activist" or not. Better to allow people to be honest about their views and organize above the table, than to have to deal with covert under-the-table activism. --Daniel 01:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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