Talk:Myanmar

Myanmar

Discussion moved to Talk:Burma/Myanmar to avoid clutter --89.243.41.164 (talk) 07:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I see this page still discusses Myanmar, despite the incorrect title name of a country that no longer exists.Guess mob-rule wins out over reality after all this time. Lostinlodos (talk) 00:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not trolling to point out a grievous factual error. The article titled Burma, a country that no longer exists, discusses a current country called Myanmar. Using (The country that used to exist and no longer exists formerly known as) Burma is a blatant, flagrant, even belligerent violation of NPOV. Was just hoping someone with a rational neutral point of view would come along and renominate this for a name change.
Hence the reason for posting it on THIS page as opposed to posting on the Real name/(we don't care if we're lying we call it burma name) page. If I nominated it once again myself I probably would be trolling. Lostinlodos (talk) 16:49, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

To some people, anyone who makes dissenting remarks are automatically labelled as trolls. A strange reminiscence of what probably occurs in the country of Myanmar.--Huaiwei (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Just to clarify, it is not so much mob rule that's keeping us here as mob stagnation. There was never a clear consensus in favour of "Burma", but all those who would like to keep it that way have had to do is remain adamant that they are right and the result is no change. Hence the situation we're now in where the page is locked on the basis of a decision that there is no consensus. Bigbluefish (talk) 16:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

It is an unfortunate weakness of Wikipedia; it is a public instrument that anyone can edit regardless of qualification or expertise. Sometimes we end up with these types of results. It is beyond comprehension to title the article anything but Myanmar, but emotion plays a bigger role than reality. I wonder how long Myanmar will exist as a nation before the name changes? Will it take 50 years or 100 years before those editors that hold so tightly to the past forfeit their position? Eventually Wikipedia rights itself; just be patient. --^StormRider 17:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, sit tight I guess. I'm fairly certain by the end of this year not every party in the debate will hold the same position as they do now. Bigbluefish (talk) 23:28, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The weakness of this "consensus-rule" is, if it would be consensus to call the "United States", let me say, "Jesusland", simply because it is the consensus' opinion, then I am pretty sure, "United States" would be moved to "Jesusland" (for the sake of not bending the rule). The page title is a mainly political decision. --Bone1234 (talk) 19:46, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

So at the risk of bringing up a dead debate, what exactly is the rationale for keeping the page at "Burma"? Looking over the structured mediation, I couldn't see any real reasons for it except "Fascists named it Myanmar, and we don't like that." That seems like it's ignoring the fact that Burma was largely a colonial name, and that in plenty of other situations (Republic of China, for instance) Wikipedia has gone with the name sanctioned by the government rather than the popular one. In my opinion, this is the correct way of doing things. "Everyone hates the SPDC, so we get to call the country whatever we like" is really not a valid justification, IMHO. Kiralexis (talk) 15:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The elected leader of the country refers to it as Burma (Interview with John Pilger), surely that would be more important than whatever anyone else wants to call it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.147.216 (talk) 23:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps we can all agree that Bigbluefish has the right idea. There will hopefully be a Burmese general election, 2010. Then, we'll wait a little longer and see which way the winds are blowing. -BaronGrackle (talk) 13:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

This is true... things can change in a hurry there. Right now the election rules look pretty lousy and without Suu Kyi allowed to run the UN and most other nations have said the results will not be credible. It will be interesting to see if the US and/or UK agree to a name change after the elections, and all we can do is wait and see. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

For what its worth, both the country and the UN call the state concerned "Myanmar" (or "Union of Myanmar"). I think the article should follow that name. I do not feel that I am a politically minded person as regards this matter...I just prefer this to be more like an encyclopedia and stick to facts. 84.203.69.86 (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Likewise it is POV to say it is Burma, because both the country and the UN and other less-politicised bodies use the name Myanmar. Furthermore it is Wikipedia's bias to use Burma here and not Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as the latter is known. If one wants to use the official name is should be consistent, with a due redirect.(Lihaas (talk) 02:39, 17 October 2010 (UTC)).

At the risk of igniting this ridiculousness again (this was long before I joined, but I read through the links at the top of the page), we don't use the official name of countries for their titles; click on The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and you'll find it's a redirect, for instance. We use the most common name. Please, please, let's not dredge this up again. As for the "elections"; I don't know what that will bring about, but the actual people with direct connections to the country (a few names readily come to mind) probably won't stop calling it Burma, for what that's worth... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:53, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

But we do call it United Kingdom, rather than Britain, or England (incorrect, obviously). This is supposedly an encyclopedia, rather than a compendium of street knowledge. But I guess popular opinion wins out again. 203.219.241.110 (talk) 07:26, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course, asserting that Burma actually is "the most common name" is sure to ignite "this ridiculousness again", considering that has been a hotly-contended claim from the beginning. :) -BaronGrackle (talk) 09:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

agreed, Burma is not a commonly used name, it is in fact only use in the media of a handful of countries that does not like to accept fact and invent their own world view. all countries in asia, refer to it as Mynamar, no country outside the west refer to it as Burma; how is that common? how long is the west going to act like it is the world? on a planet of 6 billion, where all human are equal, the western view is not "common", it is in fact a minority. Akinkhoo (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I pretty much disagree with this entire last paragraph by Akinkhool as just soapboxing and West bashing in this English wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC

you claim this is west bashing? yet can you say human are not equal? or that western view are universal? this maybe an english wikipedia but am i not speaking english? again i dare ask? do the british have monopoly of the english language and if so should the rest of the world stop using english because our input is "not welcome" and respected as "equal"? i provoke your thoughts and you will see I am in fact not bashing but pointing out a very important decision england has to make, is it going to share it's language or not? do we have to start dividing the english wiki into american english, british english, indian english and what not and turn language into national? Akinkhoo (talk) 17:46, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Na, of course not, maybe US English should just be used in Simple English Wikipedia ;) Anyway: The use of Burma/Myanmar isn't as clear cut as is being suggested. Just because Eastern COUNTRIES refer to the country as Myanmar, that doesn't mean the people do, many people in Myanmar are known to have refered to the country as Burma; mainly due to the illigitamacy of the Govt. The thing is of course, that those in control of Burma DO call the country Myanmar, i.e. Myanmar IS the country's official name. The other side of the argument of course is that Myanmar is STILL Burma: Burma is the ENGLISH name for Burma. I'm sure Germany don't rename their Frankreich article France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle (talk • contribs) 15:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is silly this article should be called Myanmar because it is the official name and recognised by the UN and the majority of the world's nations. Now there are alot of people who don't like the SPDC well that's fine but the are the government and what they say counts. Wikipidia supposed to be an encyclopedia not a platform for political or ideological prefernces. It should stick to the FACTS!

It's the SAME name: "Burma is derived from the Burmese word Bamar, which in turn is the colloquial form of Myanmar(or Mranma in old Burmese), both of which historically referred to the majority Burmans (or the Bamar). Depending on the register used the pronunciation would be "Bama" (pronounced [bəmà]), or "Myanmah" (pronounced [mjəmà])." It's just a difference in pronunciation. Even the official names uses the form "Myăma" which looks like a cross between the two. To be perfectly accurate it would have to be always spelled with Burmese letters as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.161.54 (talk) 09:09, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

If that was right, then the whole issue would be just a matter of transcription?! --Bone1234 (talk) 19:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

If it were only that simple! No one, who's familiar with Burmese, would claim that "Myanmar" is incorrect, or that it's some name the junta just made up. The issue is not whether Myanmar is correct but who gets to make that change in English. You can read all pro and con arguments in the archives here. Hybernator (talk) 20:03, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This dispute will end when the junta-reign is over and it will depend how the post-junta government accepted by the West will name its country. If they rename it back to Birma, then so will this article remain under the current title "Birma". If the post-junta government unexpectedly remain the country's currant name "Myanmar" then it would be awkward if the wiki-community would not move this page. --Bone1234 (talk) 04:13, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

They changed their name in 1989, I think we should finally catch up. Sometimes popular names are better, (Taiwan instead of ROC; East Germany instead of German Democratic Republic), but Myanmar is used by the gov't officially. Maybe 'Burma' will come back tomorrow, but right now it's Myanmar. We don't call Sri Lanka by its former name 'Ceylon'. The other parts of the wikiverse call it Myanmar. The embassy in the USA does not have 'Burma' on their front page at all [1]. 'Burma' is completely anachronistic. Smarkflea (talk) 03:15, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I have an agreement with the rebels, to get Burma's name back. So I wonder if the problem does not resolve itself within a couple of months.Haabet 14:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Since The Military Junta in Burma is legally incapable of passing a law, since again they aren't the legal government, aren't they also incapable of legally changing the country name? No British institution recognises the name as legal and still refers to it as Burma. A comparison would be if the White House was stormed by Republicans and Obama killed or imprisoned, would they then be able to claim his presidency by force and pass laws, including renaming America something else? It all depends i think on whether Wikipedia recognises the legal name and most commonly used or the one some army man tells people he's changed it to. Thanks Jenova20 12:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Whether you consider them 'legal' or not, the fact is they are in control and have been for over two decades. Whether Britain of the US recognizes this doesn't matter. The US didn't recognize the inclusion of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia into the USSR, but that didn't change the facts.Smarkflea (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Still doesn't change whether Wikipedia recognises the legal name or the illegitimate name though so well done for missing the point completely.

Whichever name Wikipedia recognises should be the one used.

Thanks Jenova20 09:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

As it says above, WP recognizes 'Burma' because no one could agree on just what to call it. We should agree to call it by its rightful name, MyanmarSmarkflea (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The Junta is the government of Myanmar. Throwing about western ideals of legitimacy does nothing, countries recognise and negotiate with the Junta. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:50, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

But that doesn't mean a thing.

Governments still negotiated with Libya right until now and are currently trying to oust Gadaffi.

Burma was still the name the country had before the illegitimate government changed it.

"Western" comments you bring up do not change that and seem more an attempt at a political slur than a reasonable debate.

Thanks Jenova20 17:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

That's because until recently they saw Gadaffi as the leader of Libya. Now they recognise and in some cases have diplomatic relations with the Benghazi government. No-one has diplomatic relations with any other political party in Burma/Myanmar. The Junta has de facto control, whether or not it is de jure.

There are pages of debate on this already, and noting "Western" is not a political slur. It is the UK, the USA, Australia, and NZ which still call the country Burma.

At any rate, wikipedia is not going to decide whether a government is legitimate or not. Some say the Junta is legitimate, some say it isn't. Decisions on wikipedia are not meant to be made based on the government's perceived legitimacy, and any comments where an argument is based on a government's legitimacy do not hold up to WP:NPOV. The current dispute about this articles title centres mainly around WP:COMMONNAME, where it seems there is still no clear leaning either way. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

This leaves a stalemate as both names are commonly used and this won't change until either the West recognise the illegitimate government or the illegitimate government relinquish power to the winning party of the last election.

Thanks Jenova20 11:31, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Since when do you or other individuals have the right to rename a country? Who are you anyways?? The facts are simple and clear enough: the name of the country in question is Myanmar. Burma was its colonial name until the British left. It was called Myanmar before, and it was named Union of Burma after the independence. Then it was decided that the name be (the Socialist) UNION OF MYANMAR. That is the name of the country, it's time you respect that! >>> Just the same way as you wont call Zimbabwe Rhodesia anymore, you should not call Myanmar Burma. And Myanmar is more of a functioning democracy than Zimbabwe... main point: What you are doing is spreading false information, and it goes straight against the purpose and principals of Wikipedia. <<< >>> I don't care who discussed it with who (BBC, self-proclaimed political exiles), no individual has the right to rename a country. <<< —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.171.36.26 (talk) 09:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually the full name is constitutionally "Republic of the Union of Myanmar". People should really read the talk archives and the specific page included in the talkheader. In fact, this discussion should be moved there.--Tærkast (Communicate) 17:47, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree. What Jenova20 fails to realize is that his entire argument is based on whether the government is the legal government of the country - which presupposes he himself, or whatever 'sources' he quotes, have the right to determine that. Whether or not the international community has the right to determine the 'legality' of a country's government aside, the Government of Myanmar is represented in the United Nations Organization, which is about as close to an international recognition of their legality as one will ever get. 75.154.80.90 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:30, 5 April 2011 (UTC).

It is interesting to see how this debate has never ceased. - - When this article was named Myanmar for a long time, there was no real debate over the name of the country. When a small group of wikipedians allowed their emotions to get over their heads and moved this article to Burma right after the height of the 2007 Burmese anti-government protests (which if you checked the details, it showed that the entire moving process was pushed through before most people noticed it), the naming debate has ensued continuously for a full four years and running. - - I believe this itself says alot about this classic example of a flaw in the way wikipedia works which allows itself to be exploited by a minority group in the face of widespread opposition, all in the name of "political correctness" which goes against wikipedia's core policies of WP:NPOV. Over 90% of "Pro-Burma" supporters may not always express it outright, but it is clear politics was at play. Conversely, over 90$ of "Pro-Myanamr" supporters where hardly supportive of the current political regime, but simply found this a huge joke on the internet, or like me, were trying to defend wikipedia's core values of NPOV. And yet a value as important as NPOV is being brushed aside in favour of something as vague as WP:Commonname. - - It is such a shame that I have teenage students using this incident as an lasting example of why Wikipedia can never be trusted as a viable research source. Today, wikipedia is the only source on Earth which states that the largest city of Burma is Yangon. I can sympathise with people when they laugh at this anomaly.--Huaiwei (talk) 15:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much pure soapboxing here but I'll do my best to answer. Sarcasm, belittling of peer editors and fibs are evident in your post... (see yangon#1, yangon#2, yangon#3, yangon#4) so we'll move quickly from there. As far as using wikipedia as a viable research tool one must be very very careful. Since ANYONE can edit Wikipedia at any time, and there is lots of vandalism, incorrect data may be present. Heck one has only to glance at articles like Global Warming to see that in some instances one entire side of a debate is missing or quashed by those with editing power. I would never send a single student to that article for research, but merely as an extra tidbit. Printed encyclopedias on Burma are outdated seconds after they are printed and while we get to post the latest info if the Hlaing River overflows we also have to deal with misinformation creeping in by every kid with a cellphone. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I wrote that without expecting anyone to answer, and you do not have to dismiss every comment which you disagree as "soapboxing". I certainly do not need you to write a rambling "answer" to tell me why wikipedia is not a valid souce of research since I am an academic myself. If you do not possess basic inference skills, I am simply demonstrating one particular failing of a site which claims it is not democratic, yet allows "numerical votes" to push through a controversial change despite many arguments from one side blatantly violating a key wikipedia policy like {{WP:NPOV]]. And nothing you say is going to change what has happened.--Huaiwei (talk) 08:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I only dismissed it because it was soapboxing. It doesn't belong on a talk page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

• So, it's been years. If we were to discuss whether a move to Myanmar should take place, what would be necessary to make the change happen? I know we won't be able to slip it without consensus like the Burma move did in 2007; that was a fluke, and things have tightened since then. If common use is a criteria, would it even matter that Myanmar scores more hits on English-speaking Google News, Google Scholar, the various Internet maps, Youtube, or whatever else? Would that make any difference? How many "Don't Move" votes would it take to say that there is no consensus to move? And if most of the "Don't Move" votes have nothing to do with common name, then could they be ignored on the basis that they have nothing to do with Wikipedia policy? -BaronGrackle (talk) 18:16, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

• Wow Baron you are still around! I think things have changed in various ways over the past three years. I was quite surprised to check google moments earlier and "Myanmar" now gets 192 million hits, while "Burma" gets only 83.7 million. As I have always expected, the last "baston" of the pro-burmese camp is and will erode. I honestly do not see how the bro-Burmese camp can support that name further under current circumstances. It is just a matter of time that this be brought up again for formal debate. I am prepared to support anyone who makes that attempt, for I am currently too preoccupied with worldly affairs to initiate such a project which requires plenty of commitment.--Huaiwei (talk) 08:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Republic of the Union of Myanmar or still Union of Myanmar?

According to the New Light of Myanmar (22 Oct 2001): NAY PYI TAW, 21 Oct-The State Peace and Development Council of the Union of Myanmar issued State Flag Law with State Peace and Development Council Law (8/2010); State Seal Law with State Peace and Development Council Law (9/2010); National Anthem Law with State Peace and Development Council Law (10/2010); State Flag Rules with State Peace and Development Council Rule (1/2010); State Seal Rules with State Peace and Development Council Rule (2/2010); and National Anthem Rules with State Peace and Development Council Rule (3/ 2010) dated 13th Waxing of Thadingyut 1372 ME (21 October 2010). [2] – nothing about change of country names. We have only Reuters information, perhaps this information is incorrect (New Light of Myanmar still uses name Union of Myanmar, eg. in edition of 2 December). Did any official source confirm this name change (earlier information said that the new country name would come into force with the entry into force of the new constitution, and it probably has not yet occurred)? Aotearoa (talk) 14:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow... well spotted. The new name seems to have very widely caught on, but it does seem very hard to find anything from what Reuters simply references as "state media". Interestingly, the same 22 Oct edition of NLM also has a story about "The hoisting of the State Flag of the Republic of the Union of Myanmar". Perhaps Reuters seized upon this slip to prematurely announce the name change along with the other changes? Perhaps the NLM translators simply forgot to change their usage? Without a reliable source asserting that they were wrong, it would be ill-advised not to presume the Reuters story is true, but you never know... Bigbluefish (talk) 23:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Burma/Archive 8#Did any country or international organization recognize the new name of Burma?, where I listed links to official Burmese websites (embassies, UN's missions) on which the name Union of Myanmar is still used. Aotearoa (talk) 07:25, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I saw that but for some reason the first time round I missed the second list of links with the new flag but not the new name. This changes things somewhat, especially the CIA Factbook which is directly intended to be correct on these kinds of details and well regarded as a source. I would support a revert at this stage, and perhaps the addition of some description of the reports that the name change had in fact taken place. Bigbluefish (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Another month passed and still no official confirmation of name change. It is incredible that after such a long time only media informed about new name, and the lack of such information on the official site of any international organization or a state (where its still use the previous name). Therefore, probably the name of Burma has not yet been changed. I think that the name Union of Myanma should be restored to time to obtain confirmation of name change by the official sources. Aotearoa (talk) 18:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

New Ligt of Myanmar, Januray 5, 2011: NAY PYI TAW, 5 Jan-The following are messages of felicitations from foreign Heads of Govenment sent to U Thein Sein, Prime Minister of the Union of Myanmar, on the occasion of the 63rd Anniversary Independence Day of the Union of Myanmar. So, if official government newspaper still uses the name "Union of Myanmar", and this name is used on official Burmese websites, this means that this name is still official. Aotearoa (talk) 20:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

• Does anyone know when the new name of the country will enter into force? The new constitution came into force on January 31, but former name is still used (for example New Ligt of Myanmar, February 25, 2011: NAY PYI TAW, 25 Feb-Minister for Labour U Aung Kyi received an ILO mission led by Executive Director Mr Guy Ryder of the Office of the International Labour Organization at the Ministry of Labour on 23 February morning and discussed tasks being carried out jointly by the government of the Union of Myanmar and ILO and future tasks., NAY PYI TAW, 25 Feb - U Thein Sein, Prime Minister of the Union of Myanmar, has sent a message of felicitations to His Highness Sheikh Nasser Al-Mohammad Al-Ahmad Al-Sabah, Prime Minister of the State of Kuwait, on the occasion of the National Day of the State of Kuwait which falls on 25 February 2011.). Aotearoa (talk) 11:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Will there actually be anyway of having official confirmation, though? Saying that, a google news search turns up some results, but doesn't really do much. [3] It's a waiting game, I guess.--Tærkast (Communicate) 16:36, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

If I may just add a note, here, both the title page and pages 5 and 7 of the 2008 Constitution use the term Republic of the Union of Myanmar. 75.154.109.28 (talk)

This is not problem which name is listed in constitution, the problem is if this new name was officially adopted. And there are still no official sources stated that the name listed in constitution is in official use. 178.73.50.5 (talk) 20:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

• The new name Republic of the Union of Myanmar was adopted on 30 March 2011 (e.i. 5 months after the date listed by Reuters), as an effect of inaugration of the new government (see: "Republic of the Union of Myanmar". New Light of Myanmar. Myanmar.com. 30 March 2011. Retrieved 2011-04-04.). Aotearoa (talk) 07:54, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

State Supreme Council

I thimk that the leader of SSC Than Shwe is more important than the actual president. SHould he be placed in the infobox? It seems similar to Libya, where the president is less important than Gaddafi, who doesn't have any official position (Leader of the revolution isn't actual political position). HeadlessMaster (talk) 20:41, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about the State Supreme Council, because there hasn't actually been news on it since it was reported to have been formed. Also, this news article [4] reportedly indicates Than Shwe's complete retirement from government in any affairs.--Tærkast (Discuss) 11:15, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

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Civil war

Burma is now in a civil war. http://www.kachinnews.com/news/1947-civil-war-starts-after-kias-dead-line-on-monday.html Haabet 15:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Name

Why is Burma still called Burma on Wikipedia if Burma was renamed to Myanmar some time ago? Surely should it be called Myanmar?

MrAmberGold (talk) 17:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)MrAmberGoldMrAmberGold (talk) 17:21, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Read the mediation history listed near the top for an explanation. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Too long

Isn't this article too long?? 203.81.67.182 (talk) 12:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

go Take a look at The Peoples Republic of China, United States of Amercia, and World War Two. then complain about length. 24.228.24.97 (talk) 04:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)