Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Discussion
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A little background: Talk:Muhammad/images is a special talk page created to deal with the large number of editors who come to complain about showing depictions of Muhammad on the Muhammad article, due mostly to religious considerations. Consensus has been decided on multiple occasions that images of Muhammad are acceptable on the page, this has been truly exhaustively discussed in the past as you can tell by the large disclaimer on the top of the talk page, and by reading the archives. This does not mean that consensus cannot change, but it's unlikely and doesn't seem to be happening now. Furthermore, WP:NOTCENSORED is unambiguous when it states "Any rules that forbid members of a given organization, fraternity, or religion to show a name or image do not apply to Wikipedia because Wikipedia is not a member of those organizations." User talk:Ludwigs2 has made it goal recently to strip the article of images of Muhammad on the basis that it offends Muslims. It is true that some sects of Islam consider it unethical to depict Muhammad as I'm sure most people here know. It has been explained ad nauseum to Ludwig that policy does not allow us to consider religious beliefs when writing this encyclopedia and his response is that we should invoke WP:IAR. I explained to him that IAR still needs to be determined by a consensus and that he cannot unilaterally invoke it to force a POV into the article. His response was that other editors are abusing the rules by enforcing them and if we stop abusing the rules then he will stop IAR. This conversation has been going back and forth with the same points being explained by several editors many times, and it has now crossed the WP:TE line - the entire page is one large WP:BATTLEGROUND at this point, with several WP:IDHT, WP:NPA and WP:AGF issues such as accusing all the other editors opposing removal ( I'm asking that an uninvolved admin assess the situation and determine if Lugwigs2 requires some kind of a warning or if I'm being overly dramatic, and I thank you in advance for reading the talk page thread because it is a bit long. The relevant thread is here. I'm not posting diffs because the entire thread demonstrates the points I am attempting to illustrate, as it's not a single comment that is at issue here. There are other threads involved in this discussion, but this is the most recent and best highlights my complaint. Noformation Talk 01:11, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
A small portion of Ludwigs2 behavior and comments
Added by ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 01:51, 3 November 2011 (UTC) We need to limit this discussion to Ludwigs2's behavior. We *really* don't want to hash out the image controversy here as it's one that will never achieve consensus anyway. Rklawton (talk) 02:29, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
My OPINION: Summary of this whole eventThis was intended to be part of the AN/I I held off filing and was to go with the diffs I provided above and below. It has been modified to note the two locations of the diffs, as I never finished moving them from off-Wiki to my userspace) (diffs representative of most or all of this are already posted here) When it comes to removal of the images, whether one or all or something inbetween, there are two camps involved:
It is at that point where things continue to spiral out of control. Multiple attempts have been made to restart discussions, but the end result is always the same. I can provide diffs to various such conversations where those at odds with Ludwigs2's actions were working in good faith with those in "Camp #1" - and where he sidetracked things for his single minded objective. Due to his preliminary support of some of these (before he reverts to his true objective), a person only giving the page a quick read may come to a grossly wrong conclusion about his objectives as he himself (diff below in response to Anthony, many more available) had admitted is his goal. This is just my perceptions of the matter, with diffs in the section above I created, as well as below to support my interpretation. Your's may vary (or not). Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 08:20, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Topic Ban Proposal
Can I suggest that we, those of us involved on Muhammad, stop adding to this thread for a while. If we want uninvolved editors to offer their advice about this situation, the least we can do is cut down the amount of tangental reading. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:24, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Re: "shouting to loud and it annoys us"
These are just the examples that struck me, there are probably more. There are other editors who agree with Ludwigs2 on the subject matter, including Jayen466 and Griswaldo, but these guys seem able to disagree without being so disagreeable. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 15:18, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Please close the topic-ban subthreadCan an uninvolved admin please close this subthread now? The only people who have commented here, myself included, have strongly held opinions about the content dispute(s) that precipitated the thread. Almost all, if not all the people who want him topic banned, for instance, have diametrically opposed POVs to his. Clearly we are not about to enact a topic ban based on those voices. So have we had enough of this? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 13:15, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Perhaps a reasonable compromise?All the participants in the talk page discussion have come here and are basically continuing the same sorts and styles of arguments, it's all just looping. Perhaps I might suggest a compromising position. Someone start an RFC and contact, neutrally mind you, some of the relevant wikiprojects to participate. To prevent a rehash of the talk page, the opposing sides in this debate should state their positions and refrain from substantially trying to sway other participants. Having re-read the discussion, and being totally uninvolved, I can see the arguments of both sides. Run the RCC< don't just talk about it. --Blackmane (talk) 09:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Blackmane: I'd agree that an RfC would be a good starting point, but even trying to determine the proper language for an RfC becomes a major point of strife. For instance, every RfC approach I've suggested starts from my perception of the problem - that the images have no appreciable value which justifies the offense they cause to our readers - but any such wording is instantly nixed by Tarc, Robert, and Resolute as being against NOTCENSORED. I could start an RfC on my own (and I will if that's what you suggest), but the RfC will most likely devolve into more of the same dispute as the editors opposed to change dispute its validity (in fact, at least a couple of threads currently on the page show exactly that devolution as we've tried to discuss proper wording for the RfC). As far as I can see, the page is locked down in such a way that any discussion about removing the images is declared to be against policy. I don't know how to get past that obstruction except to keep trying to talk through it. --Ludwigs2 14:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
This argument belongs elswhere, not at ANI. GoodDay (talk) 19:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Small note: I've struck RobertMfromLI's name from my earlier post. Only one time did Robert ever imply an RfC wasn't necessary, and he did in fact try to restart the RfC several times. I don't know what made me think that he was one of the people trying to derail process in this case; my apologies. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:42, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Brass tacks straw poll
For anyone who wants a discussion of NOTCENSORED, I've just started one at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#What WP:NOTCENSORED is not. Robofish (talk) 18:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC) Notice: I've decided I'm going to copy this RfC over to wp:NOT, and wait for a result to be reached there before re-entering the discussion at talk:Muhammad/Images. that should end the discussion there for for a while (at least as far as I'm concerned). It also likely resolves this thread, though I'll leave that up to you. I'll post the link to the RfC here after I've made it. --Ludwigs2 00:11, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Comments on ongoing conduct of Ludwigs2Despite having given assurances that he has reformed, Ludwigs2 has recently continued to ridicule and belittle those editors disagreeing with him. One of the difficulties is that he is being extremely slippery about why he is objecting to the images of Muhammad. It would appear that he believes, for whatever reason, that the courtly images of the Prophet Muhammad produced in illuminated manuscripts of the Ottoman Empire, Persia and elsewhere cause offense to some parts of the international Muslim community for religious reasons. However, when pressed on the subject by Kww, he has accused those repeating this statement of "making up cheap lies". In a conversation on his user talk page with Kww he wrote: [66]
It is an example of Ludwigs2 deliberately misunderstanding other users and switching from one argument to another. Already on User talk:Jimbo wales, he wrote of thise disagreeing with him:[67]
These statements are not accurate and are indeed a highly inflammatory way of describing other editors. It creates an impasse for any future discussion. (I personally have not voted in any image discussions but have located commentaries in WP:RS on the historical use of images of the Prophet, written by Islamic scholars from the East and the West.) On the same user talk page, Ludwigs2 later made this personal attack on Tarc, [68]
These remarks were later redacted by Ludwigs2 after Short Brigade Harvester Boris criticized them. Ludwigs2's conduct has not reformed and these personal attacks seem completely counterproductive at this stage. Mathsci (talk) 07:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Comments by ChzzSheesh, that's long. Forgive me collapsing it. The arguments on what is/is not 'appropriate' re. certain images on certain pages will go on forever. There's some non-collegiate behaviour on the part of several editors, but that'd be better handled via an RFC/U or whatever. I can't see any admin action as appropriate at this time. If I'm wrong, can someone cut out the tl;dr and just say "X should be blocked for Y and Z". Otherwise, feel free to continue the eternal arguments on the article talks. ANI is not the right place to discuss content/consensus. Nor is it the right place to discuss vague ongoing concerns with user conduct; if you can present a WP:DIFF/diffs, showing "XE did THIS which was WRONG according to THIS policy, please do so. Thanks, Chzz ► 01:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
QueryIs it reasonable to say
An then on the sub page:
I understand that people don't wish to rehash the same arguments again and again, however consensus does change (See GNAA AfDs for example), and singling out this issue as one that shall never be discussed seems both counter to Wiki-philosophy and likely to be effective only in stopping more thoughtful folk from discussing the issues. Rich Farmbrough, 11:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC).
Please bury this dead horse in a deep, dark holeAt this point it is just being used by Ludwigs to troll...yes, troll, in the fullest "intentionally posting to provoke a reaction" sense of the word. Sorry if that rubs someone the wrong way, but there's no other explanation for "anyone without my (formidable) intellectual resources.... Chzz looked into it all earlier but didn't find anything actionable at the time, perhaps that'll change after this, perhaps not. Others have weighed in that topic bans need to go to WP:AN. We've long passed the point where this is going to reach anything meaningful here, so a call to the proverbial "uninvolved admin" to make the next call. Thank you. Tarc (talk) 02:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
It's just an observation, but in almost 6 1/2 years of contributing to Wikipedia, I've noticed that editors who provoke strong feelings from other editors – pro and con – generating multiple threads of this size and polarity on the noticeboards, tend to, eventually, be indef blocked or even community banned. That's not a recommendation or a desire, simply a statement of probability based on empirical observation. Ludwigs2 might want to take that into account and moderate his behavior if he wishes to avoid that end result. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Epilogue: Light in our darknessChanging the subject of the thread to something more positive, on User talk:Jimbo Wales I noticed that Jayen466, Anthonyhcole and I have agreed that it would be a good idea to use an image of the Night Journey in the section of Muhammad devoted to his depiction, with an improved text to accompany it. I would be quite happy to help creating that improved text (multiple good sources are already available) and to help selecting which of the images is appropriate. As I said there and on Talk:Muhammad/Images, I don't see any reason to keep the same number of images. The statements of Jayen466 and Anthonyhcole were short and direct: I was happy when I found them. Mathsci (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC) |
Unarchiving
The previous discussion was not closed by an administrator, so I have restored the lengthy thread. (Partly this was due to Ludwigs2 resuming his activities on-wiki regarding images and related policy, after a brief lull.) Please could an uninvolved administrator reassess the voting on the topic ban (in case of doubt, I voted for a topic ban). If the discussion was inconclusive and there is truly no consensus, so be it. Mathsci (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ludwigs2 has pointed out that Gimmetoo (talk · contribs) (not identified as an admin [77]) is an alternative account of Gimmetrow (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), In view of the renewed activity of Ludwigs2 after a two day lull, a review might still be in order. Mathsci (talk) 22:22, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Aren't you afraid of food poisoning? Hans Adler 22:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- What he means, Mathsci, is that trying to reopen a closed thread simply because I have entered a discussion (as is my right, until there's a consensus I shouldn't) looks more like a personal issue than anything else. I'll note also that this is maybe the fourth or fifth time over the last year or so that you've tried to get administrative sanctions against me, usually on topics with which you were not previously involved…
- If there is a personal issue that you and I need to discuss we can do that in talk, unless you really want to do it here. But as Hans points out this horse is kinda dead. let's all just get back to editing. --Ludwigs2 23:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Discussion has been reviewed and closed by an uninvolved admin. Tachfin (talk) 14:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Bold doesn't make your opinion seem more official and it fails to note the resumption of behavior once the AN/I thread was closed. Not sure why you're only commenting on the portion of the unarchive that's already been covered above. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 19:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Discussion moved to /WP:V RFC. Timestamp changed to future until the discussion is over. Alexandria (talk) 15:50, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Well, this move was made just after I made a comment that I intended to be on ANI. I hope, at least, that those who are paying attention will continue to watch the new page. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
Closing the RfC at WP:V (a preemptive request)
OK... we are now at 30 days (remember, October had 31 days)... we don't have to close yet, but we could close today if we want to. I could close it myself (as the initiator of the RfC), except that I have certainly been heavily involved (far more than Sarek was) and I don't want give anyone (on either side of the debate) grounds to object to the closure when it happens and cause more unneeded drama. Given the tensions and general bad faith that has permeated the discussion recently, I think we need the closer to be someone who not only is neutral, but also has the appearance of neutrality. That means someone who has not commented at all. So... I thought I would ask...who is going to close it? I would like to announce who it will be, so we don't get a drama fest of closures and unclosures and counter closures when it happens. Blueboar (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Looks messy! 115.64.182.73 (talk) 08:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
- You need 3 closers to reach an agreed outcome to avoid further drama. Not me.. :-) Spartaz Humbug! 07:34, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Valid idea... although I don't think anyone involved would insist on 3 closers. The point is, a) the closer(s) should be someone who has not yet commented, b) have the clout that comes with admin status so the decision (what ever it may be) is accepted, and c) we need to inform those who have commented who the closer(s) will be (along with a polite request that those involved not add to the drama by closing it themselves). So... could we get some volunteers please. Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I assume you didn't read ANI recently, as we have an ANI subpage devoted to this now. Over there at least 3 admins have volunteered to close it: User:HJ Mitchell, User:Newyorkbrad and User:Black Kite. I personally think a triumvirate closure, like recently on the China RFC is a good idea, but I will leave it to the admins in question to work this out amongst themselfs. I am curious where you got the idea that the an iniator of an RFC should close it? The iniator is by definition heavily involved, so that is always a bad idea. Yoenit (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Valid idea... although I don't think anyone involved would insist on 3 closers. The point is, a) the closer(s) should be someone who has not yet commented, b) have the clout that comes with admin status so the decision (what ever it may be) is accepted, and c) we need to inform those who have commented who the closer(s) will be (along with a polite request that those involved not add to the drama by closing it themselves). So... could we get some volunteers please. Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Yoenit. That is all I needed to know (I too am happy to leave the rest up to the admins in question). I got the idea that an initiator could close from reading the instructions at WP:RFC. Perhaps I have misunderstood. Doesn't really matter since I was not planning on doing so in any case. Blueboar (talk) 15:53, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
Civility
The civility at Talk:pregnancy is descending further as in these edits by User:Dreadstar [78] [79] --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Blocked. Risker (talk) 05:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- After reviewing the page history, and especially considering that Dreadstar is an administrator, I am in agreement that Dreadstar's behavior was inappropriate. I support Risker's block. --Elonka 05:57, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Concur also. Calling people names is never appropriate, neither is using heated language designed to denigrate or enflame other users involved in a discussion. Administrators especially should know better. Repeatedly calling someone a "liar" does nothing to move a dispute towards resolution; it is unseemly for any user and doubly so for an administrator who is often expected themselves to make decisions regarding the behavior of others. --Jayron32 06:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Regrettable situation. Why was he blocked for a week? He's never been blocked before and I would have thought that it would have been for a lesser time period.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 06:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)- If he requests an unblock and indicates that he has no intention of calling people liars anymore, the block could be lifted, and I would also support that. Alas, his first edit post-block was this, which is to repeat the same offense which got them blocked; do you suspect, based on that, that Dreadstar would stop calling people liars if it was a shorter block? --Jayron32 06:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've been following the situation, and am in agreement with Jayron32. I too had questions about why a 1-week block was necessary, but upon a more detailed review, I support it. It's worth noting that at Talk:Pregnancy, Dreadstar attempted to close a discussion in which they were involved, used the "liar" language multiple times, then reacted to the block with a {{retired}} template, and (possibly) coming back in as an anon to post the same on their userpage (I see that the anon is now blocked as well). There appears to be more going on here than a simple case of one-time namecalling, so the 1-week block seems to be a reasonable course of action at this point. --Elonka 06:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- If he requests an unblock and indicates that he has no intention of calling people liars anymore, the block could be lifted, and I would also support that. Alas, his first edit post-block was this, which is to repeat the same offense which got them blocked; do you suspect, based on that, that Dreadstar would stop calling people liars if it was a shorter block? --Jayron32 06:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- There is a whole lot more going on here than you can see in a few hours of reading. An editor, also an admin, manipulated process multiple times to achieve his desired outcome, and further at times was not honest about the things he had said or aspects of the RfC. While an image in an article is not a big issue in my mind , honesty and manipulation are. Do not drag through the mud of implication an admin-Dreadstar who had no blocks, and who most of the time was exemplary in how he dealt with other editors, in his helpfulness and kindness, and lets not start creating a narrative around an editor based on assumptions gleaned from a long, convoluted RfC which followed on the heels of reams of discussion on an almost identical RfC. Further, actually the accusation had nothing to do with James beliefs, it had to do with an editor saying he hadn't done something when he clearly had. I didn't intend to get into this, but really, some of this goes too far.(olive (talk) 08:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
- That may or may not mean anything, how can any of us tell if you don't present evidence and provide diffs as to your reading of the situation? That can be done without calling anyone a liar, n'est ce pas? The core issue is whether one does the effective thing in ending disputes of this nature (presenting evidence to neutral parties for review) or one does the harmful thing (resorts to namecalling and personal attacks). This situation actually highlights the problem with trying to resolve disputes by calling people liars: Let's say, purely hypothetically, (and I don't say that this is reality, merely a supposition for the sake of making a point) that Dreadstar's position in this dispute is the right one; that is Wikipedia would have been better off had Dreadstar's position been the one that prevailed. By calling the other party in the dispute a liar, what Dreadstar has done it ruined the opportunity for Wikipedia to benefit because it now makes it harder for the right thing to be done. Had he handled this the proper way, the correct side of the dispute would have prevailed. This is why civility matters; Not just for its own sake, but because when people defending the proper outcome act incivilly, it harms Wikipedia in that such incivility prevents Wikipedia from enacting the proper outcomes. In simpler terms; If you are right and incivil, the right thing never gets done because the incivility gets in the way. This has nothing to do with Wikipedia rules, it has to do with human nature: people don't like to agree with rude people, even if they are correct. --Jayron32 19:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- There is a whole lot more going on here than you can see in a few hours of reading. An editor, also an admin, manipulated process multiple times to achieve his desired outcome, and further at times was not honest about the things he had said or aspects of the RfC. While an image in an article is not a big issue in my mind , honesty and manipulation are. Do not drag through the mud of implication an admin-Dreadstar who had no blocks, and who most of the time was exemplary in how he dealt with other editors, in his helpfulness and kindness, and lets not start creating a narrative around an editor based on assumptions gleaned from a long, convoluted RfC which followed on the heels of reams of discussion on an almost identical RfC. Further, actually the accusation had nothing to do with James beliefs, it had to do with an editor saying he hadn't done something when he clearly had. I didn't intend to get into this, but really, some of this goes too far.(olive (talk) 08:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
- FWIW, block is wrong. Someone who lies is a liar; if Dreadstar can show it, then he can say it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, calling someone a liar does not act to move a discussion towards resolution. Even if it can be demonstrated that someone said something which it turns out was inaccurate, the act of namecalling is not, of itself, a productive means to move forward. He doesn't get to call people names no matter what he can "prove". Comment on the contributions, not the editor... --Jayron32 06:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Jayron. You confuse in your language someone who is generally polite and helpful with, people who are rude, people who call other people liars. I have experinced abusive language against me that makes Dreadstar's comment look like a ripple compared to a tidal wave, and that language was ignored by admins as if it was every day language I could point out right now multiple comments all over Wikipedia that cross the line in a big way, and which make Dreadstar's single worded comment seem trivial. There are fire lighting words in our language that can ignite us to defend, and there are ways of burying abusive words in language so it seem on the surface to be more palatable, but underneath is infinitely more damaging. Dreadstar seems to be standing by what he said and that in itself is a strong statement given his general propensity to be friendly and civil. People let go every now and then and say what they are thinking in the words they are thinking it. This seems to be what happened. Sooner we allow that and understand it when a block record is unblemished then ignore the festering abusive language and behaviours which harm other people day in and day out on Wikipedia. And is there anybody on this page who has not let go every now and then. A warning would have been as effective and appropriate per the admin in question with far less fallout. An admin's record, years long, has to stand for something and in this case it didn't. Wikipedia is not punitive, and a warning would have alerted Dreadstar and not put his back up in a situation which he felt strongly about. I'm afraid the block looked a lot like a punishment. I respect Risker, but think she made a mistake. And no this did not seem like the time for diffs and an explanation. If its needed and in a venue where that is appropriate I can present them.(olive (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
- Hmmm. Assuming that he can, I'd give him the chance to prove it. Our policy on incivility clearly labels lying as uncivil. We call people sock puppets which is effectively calling them liars. It is only name-calling if it is untrue and gratuitous. If he can not prove it then that is another matter. Let's hear his evidence.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 06:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)- No, it would still be namecalling, and still be a bad way to resolve a dispute. Look, I have children, ergo I have fucked in my life (at least twice). That doesn't mean you get to call me a fucker. Same situation here. Even if it turns out that an inaccurate statement was made, and even if it was made intentionally, you don't get to call people names. There are ways to proceed which reduce tensions and gain consensus, and calling someone else a liar is not it. --Jayron32 06:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, having fucked twice, that's not bad for an administrator! Congrats--I hope it was worth it. I have two as well, and man! they're expensive and a strain on the lower back. Drmies (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Now we're just paraphrasing Robert Benchley. As for me, no children, though it's pleasant enough to go through the motions. 76.248.149.98 (talk) 23:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, having fucked twice, that's not bad for an administrator! Congrats--I hope it was worth it. I have two as well, and man! they're expensive and a strain on the lower back. Drmies (talk) 23:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- No, it would still be namecalling, and still be a bad way to resolve a dispute. Look, I have children, ergo I have fucked in my life (at least twice). That doesn't mean you get to call me a fucker. Same situation here. Even if it turns out that an inaccurate statement was made, and even if it was made intentionally, you don't get to call people names. There are ways to proceed which reduce tensions and gain consensus, and calling someone else a liar is not it. --Jayron32 06:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Assuming that he can, I'd give him the chance to prove it. Our policy on incivility clearly labels lying as uncivil. We call people sock puppets which is effectively calling them liars. It is only name-calling if it is untrue and gratuitous. If he can not prove it then that is another matter. Let's hear his evidence.
- (edit conflict)I would respectfully disagree, Seb. I would think that if Dreadstar were correct, the proper method is to come here, bring diffs demonstrating the issue, and ask for extra eyes to help the problem. Baldly calling someone a liar is neither appropriate nor helpful. I believe that there are enough ways to demonstrate issues with a given editors edits without being inflammatory. If Dreadstar has evidence of prevarication when it comes to wiki editing, bringing the appropriate diffs will almost certainly bring the "wrath of ANI" down on the editor in question. -- Avi (talk) 06:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- He was advised to point out that the user was "repeatedly incorrect". Is that now coded language for "liar," and will a future instance of saying that someone was "repeatedly incorrect" lead to a block? I just want to know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Don't act obtuse. If you find a statement is incorrect, provide diffs or evidence which show the statement is incorrect. Don't call people names, and ideally don't comment on people, comment on actions. Why is that hard to understand? --Jayron32 06:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- He was advised to point out that the user was "repeatedly incorrect". Is that now coded language for "liar," and will a future instance of saying that someone was "repeatedly incorrect" lead to a block? I just want to know. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:43, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Seb, I would say that there is a difference between coming to ANI and saying "We are having an issue with editor X. Please look at the following diffs in which editor X has violated the following wiki principles…" and saying (anywhere) "I say editor X is a liar". Even if someone first said A and then B, it is possible that they changed their mind. Focusing on the content (the violations) and not the editor (the violator) is pretty much always preferable, is it not? -- Avi (talk) 06:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- "you have been repeatedly incorrect" is commenting on the person (as is "(you) don't be obtuse", by the way). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Seb, I've never called you "obtuse". Please check the attribution of the edits (they are coming in fast and furious, I know ). Yes, "you have been repeatedly incorrect" comments on the editor as well, but it is still less inflammatory than saying "you are a liar", and asking for an impartial third opinion, and bringing supporting documentation, is better, at least in my opinion, than unsubstantiated personal attacks. -- Avi (talk) 06:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- There's a significant difference between saying that someone is making incorrect statements, while giving evidence to prove it, and calling someone a liar without any evidence. I support this block. WP:CIVIL is a key behavior policy. Will Beback talk 06:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Point of order: The block is for making personal attacks, not for violating the civility policy. Risker (talk) 06:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the correction. The section heading is "Civility", so I made an assumption. I tend to think of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL as being so closely aligned that they mostly cover the same ground. Either way, calling someone a liar repeatedly is outside of community norms. Will Beback talk 07:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- So one can personally attack another civilly? Interesting... --Jayron32 06:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is not what I said. I am pointing out that the block was under WP:NPA, a more stringent and clearcut policy than WP:CIVIL. Risker (talk) 07:00, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- You see my point now, Jayron? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've seen and understand your point all along. I disagree with it. Merely because I see your point doesn't mean I think it is correct. --Jayron32 07:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh I know that. This is where I have problems with this civility-blocking anyways. I don't see "liar" as an attack, esp. not when it's potentially true. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've seen and understand your point all along. I disagree with it. Merely because I see your point doesn't mean I think it is correct. --Jayron32 07:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Point of order: The block is for making personal attacks, not for violating the civility policy. Risker (talk) 06:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Dreadstar should not have used the words "liar" and some form of block/warning was in order. Risker's block, however, seems precipitous; she has subsequently expressed her bemusement at Dreadstar's sudden retirement. Underlying this episode and the report here by Doc James (without informing Dreadstar), there were (and still are) unresolved issues concerning the legitimacy and timing of the present RfC on Talk:pregnancy in the wake of the very recently closed previous RfC. I would not be surprised if this results in an ArbCom case (for conduct and procedural reasons, not because of actual issues involving images). Mathsci (talk) 06:45, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know where you see "bemusement", Mathsci. I am saddened that Dreadstar has opted to retire. To me the key issue was Dreadstar calling Jmh649 a liar because he believes that Jmh649 has a different opinion than Jmh649 professes. It is a straw man argument, to start with, as it has absolutely nothing to do with resolving the issue at dispute; what Jmh649 believes is irrelevant. What is relevant is the position that each editor takes, and the policy-based reasons for their position. One can misinterpret policy, but one cannot "lie" about it. Risker (talk) 06:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- You wrote on your talk page, "Nonetheless, I know that Dreadstar has done a lot of positive work in the project, and I am saddened that he feels he needs to leave." I took that juxtaposition of phrases to represent bemusement; I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I have not condoned the use of the word "liar", but thanks for this further clarification. Mathsci (talk) 07:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- It sounds to me from the original comment that Risker is saying they feel their blocking Dreadstar was justified but are saddened that Dreadstar decided to leave as they had done a lot of positive work for the project. I don't see how that's bemusement. Im fact, I think it's fairly common admins feel their blocking was justified but are saddened if the person blocked decided to leave whether as a direct result, or as a contributing reason, except perhaps when the person blocked is the sort of person a lot of people were hoping would just leave rather then continue down a path likely to lead to an indefinite block or even a community ban.Nil Einne (talk) 14:42, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- You wrote on your talk page, "Nonetheless, I know that Dreadstar has done a lot of positive work in the project, and I am saddened that he feels he needs to leave." I took that juxtaposition of phrases to represent bemusement; I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I have not condoned the use of the word "liar", but thanks for this further clarification. Mathsci (talk) 07:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- He had never been blocked, wasn't given a warning and wasn't advised of this thread. This doesn't seem right.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 07:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)- Oh that happens here sometimes... :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- According to the policy on personal attacks, particularly What is a personal attack, an accusation isn't necessarily an attack. An attack may be "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. Sometimes evidence is kept private and made available to trusted users."
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 07:22, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Bearean, given that Dreadstar accused Jmh649 of lying about his own (Jmh649's) personal beliefs, and he did it not once but twice, I don't think there's much here to be "proved". Risker (talk) 07:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Is "son of a bitch" [80] (in the edit summary) [81] a personal attack? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 00:23, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- A one week block for civility, hmmmm... that may be unprecedented, but its now a precedent, so everybody play nice of you'll have a week off to think about your naughtiness....LOL Carlossuarez46 (talk) 09:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Even though I think civility should be expected of everyone on this site, I don't particularly like the idea of blocking an established contributor for a whole week just because he called someone a liar. Yes, it was quite rude, and Dreadstar should have known better. But still, it's a very lengthy period for something that strikes me as relatively mild. Master&Expert (Talk) 13:52, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Note that per above, the block was for violating NPA not civility. Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but making personal attacks is a form of incivility. I don't think it really matters which policy is cited. Master&Expert (Talk) 16:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well not everything incivil is a personal attack. Arguably all personal attacks are incivil, but there is a reason why we have a seperate policy against personal attack. Related examples, making a legal threat is arguably always incivil as well as is outing, harassment and death threats. There's IMO a good reason we would nearly always say on ANI someone was guilty of one of those rather then simply being rude or guilty of incivility (and death threats isn't even a seperate policy), it helps to be specific on what the problem was. (I mean if you want to push it, edit warring, vandalism, basically anything blockable could be considered incivil, it would be rather confusing if all we ever talked about were people being rude or incivil.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Remember, I said "a form of incivility", not "synonymous with incivility". But I understand where you're coming from. In my mind, it doesn't really matter what you call it. A spade is a spade. Master&Expert (Talk) 17:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- For clarity, my point is in you original comment you say 'though I think civility should be expected of everyone on this site' which misses a key point that while we expect civility, we particularly expect certain things like people don't make personal attacks, not simply because these are incivil, but because they can cause particular ill will. (Even more so with outing, harassment and death threats.) I'm not of course saying all personal attacks are the same. Nil Einne (talk) 18:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Remember, I said "a form of incivility", not "synonymous with incivility". But I understand where you're coming from. In my mind, it doesn't really matter what you call it. A spade is a spade. Master&Expert (Talk) 17:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well not everything incivil is a personal attack. Arguably all personal attacks are incivil, but there is a reason why we have a seperate policy against personal attack. Related examples, making a legal threat is arguably always incivil as well as is outing, harassment and death threats. There's IMO a good reason we would nearly always say on ANI someone was guilty of one of those rather then simply being rude or guilty of incivility (and death threats isn't even a seperate policy), it helps to be specific on what the problem was. (I mean if you want to push it, edit warring, vandalism, basically anything blockable could be considered incivil, it would be rather confusing if all we ever talked about were people being rude or incivil.) Nil Einne (talk) 17:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, but making personal attacks is a form of incivility. I don't think it really matters which policy is cited. Master&Expert (Talk) 16:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Note that per above, the block was for violating NPA not civility. Nil Einne (talk) 15:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Apropros or nonapropros, and aimed as it is at AfD, WP:LIARLIAR might be worth a read. FWIW I say good block. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- The problem with calling someone a "liar" is that lying means intent, and it's very hard to be certain about that wihtout getting inside the person's head. That's why "inaccurate" or "not a fact" or whatever are more appropriate to use, since these things are much easier to demonstrate.
BTW, my favorite circumlocution for correcting a Very Important Person who says something patently stupid comes from The Mote in God's Eye by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle: "Regrettably, that turns out not to be the case." Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:08, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- Calling someone a liar is only "relatively mild" when you compare it to some of the worse stuff that editors get away with here. It is not actually "relatively mild" in terms of what would IRL be considered civil discourse; indeed it would be grounds for a very strong rebuke indeed in most areas of debate. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, exactly. It is mild relative to some of the nastier diction editors have used to describe each other without getting anything more than a reprimand. I certainly don't condone anyone calling someone else a liar, but I don't really support blocking a long time contributor with an otherwise spotless block log for a whole week because they called someone a liar. At most, I'd support a 36 hour block for making a personal attack. I don't know, I guess I'm just more lenient than the average person. Master&Expert (Talk) 17:55, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- The problem with calling someone a "liar" is that lying means intent, and it's very hard to be certain about that wihtout getting inside the person's head. That's why "inaccurate" or "not a fact" or whatever are more appropriate to use, since these things are much easier to demonstrate.
- If you have an environment which is not punitive, and in which our purpose is to keep good editors working we must apply what will accomplish that in the best way. An editor with a clean block log was pushed for some reason to use language (liar) he probably never has before. What does one do in that situation. What action will accomplish the best result, to move past the frustration or to punish. I'd suggest that one talks to the editor. If I had a child, and I do, who was "good" but who behaved every now and then in a way that needs help, I can tell you that that human being benefitted from the act of good faith which I extended when I talked it out but did not punish. And I believe that kind of action created the strong young woman I have today. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is a child. But human nature is human nature. (olive (talk) 19:38, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
- Wikipedia is not therapy.
- Admins are not "pushed for some reason to use language" which they otherwise shouldn't use. Admins should be in control of themselves when dealing with other editors. This isn't the first time Dreadstar has made personal attacks.[82] Further, he knows that accusing others of being liars is a personal attack:
- .. you are accusing other editors of vandalism and being liars. That's not only uncivil, it is a personal attack. If you continue making such accusations, you will be blocked. Dreadstar † 16:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[83]
- Also, there is no excuse for incivility, even if you feel you were "attacked or feel attacked". Dreadstar † 18:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[84]
- You're in charge of your own actions and you cannot place blame on others for what you do. [..] Dreadstar † 20:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[85]
- Yes, I undersand the situation, but Yami was uncivil in calling you a liar, that's the point of the diff. A civil response would have been to say that you were mistaken and explain why, calling someone a liar is personalized instead of being directed at content and actions rather than people. Dreadstar † 22:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[86]
- Provocation is no excuse for incivility, no matter what the provocation is. [..] Dreadstar ☥ 02:04, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[87]
- Comments such as that, this, this and this are uncivil and cross the line into personal attacks and will lead to your being blocked. Dreadstar † 19:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[88]
- Accusing a living person of being a "liar," “fraudulent” and “disingenuous” as you did here does indeed violate WP:BLP, and forgive me if I don’t repeat the violation by quoting your exact wording. [..] Dreadstar † 02:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC) [89]
- I'm sorry, but it is indeed bad faith for you to accuse other editors of being "disingenuous" and claiming that the reasons they gave are just "ridiculous..excuses" to hide the "real" reason behind their objections. Not only bad faith, but a personal attack as well - you're in essence calling people liars, that's a blatant personal attack, period. Again, I strongly recommend you not make further comments about editors and restrict yourself to commenting on the editorial content of the article, per the Wikipedia Policy, Wikipedia:No personal attacks. If you persist in attacking other editors you will be blocked. Dreadstar ☥ 01:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC) [90]
- He's told me to "fuck off".[91] Yet elsewhere he has set the threshold for personal attacks very low.[92][93][94]
- In 2008, Littleolive oil posted a comment about an admin who had called Dreadstar a liar, and at that time she said:
- No editor or administrator should consider himself judge and jury as in these opinionated comments: “You are a liar and serial copy right offender” [..] Judging another editor, and then based on that judgment assuming that that this now gives one the right to name call and threaten can only cause escalation of the initial problems. [..] I would like to suggest that an administrator must show better judgment - must be able to clearly understand an individual judgment is opinion and not fact. At no time by our own standards on civility, are name-calling and threatening even remotely appropriate. An administrator who thinks that the personal analysis and judgment of a situation gives the right to treat another editor in a way that is less than respectful might consider taking a break from such situations for awhile. [95]
- In short, Dreadstar knows that calling someone a "liar' is a personal attack and that editors making personal attacks may be blocked. Will Beback talk 22:41, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- The comments above are mine. Don't attribute them or the ideas there to anyone else. I could easily put together the same kind of 'script' on anyone else including you, to show that you should have known something or should have behaved in a different way than you did.You've missed my point but I'm not surprised. And I chose not to bring diffs here, not to turn this into a quid pro quo environment. I'm sorry you didn't do the same. (olive (talk) 04:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- Recommend closing thread by uninvolved party. Several have made good points - particularly Jayron's excellent point and Will Beback's well-researched and diligent list of comments above. As no further admin action is forthcoming, I recommend that this thread be closed.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 05:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree this should be closed. You seem to be suggesting by supporting Jayron's comment that diffs should have been presented against Doc James. I didn't want the mess, know this is much more complex than presenting a few diffs and didn't feel this was an RfC or arbitration where one set of diffs spawns another and another and so on. I'll note that Dreadstar has never suggested he wasn't uncivil he simply said that what he said was true, and stood by that claim. The comments and thoughts posted here on this are mine, and in no way reflect how he may or may not be feeling about this. I'll note also that Will's comments lack context which might or might not make a difference in how they are viewed. I stand by my comments and in the pertinence they have to this situation. (olive (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- I think the key point is Dreadstar clear knew his or her comments were not only incivil but personal attacks, and as he oor she f course also knew, as any admin should, that personal attacks are not tolerated on wikipedia. Trying to defend against a block for personal attacks by saying they are the truth and you're getting blocked for saying the truth, is not on, and frankly a little silly if you yourself have in the past acknowledged that what you're now saying is an unacceptable personal attack that will result in a block. Perhaps Dreadstar has since changed his or her mind but it does at least illustrate that they once understood and agreed with their block. I do agree an uninvolved user might as well close this thread. Nil Einne (talk) 18:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what you mean in your comments, but let me say that the incident above does not even remotely resemble this one and was abusive in the extreme. The comment was taken our of context of the situation and the case. Further, I suggested and still do that an editor with a clean block log might have done well with a warning. Will posted his comments out of context and is getting the result of that, misunderstanding. I'm not on trial here and have right to my opinion on this as does every one else here. I'll add that I know more about this than most having been involved in this article and know the players from other arenas, and for that reason my opinion may have a different slant than some- not better or worse, just different. I 'll remind you that Dreadstar in the comments I've seen at least, has never commented on the appropriateness of the block. Yes this should be closed.(olive (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- You seem to be missing the point. I've read the statements in context and at no time did Dreadstar say it was okay to accuse someone of being a liar if the situation was different or worse or or the accusation was 'true' or whatever. What they did say was accusing someone of being a liar was unacceptable personal attack and would result in a block. They further made it clear that it didn't matter what the history was, it was still unacceptable.
- Note, I never said or intended to imply Dreadstar commented on the appropriateness of this specific block. What I did say was when after the block for what they had said in the past admitted was an unacceptable blockable offence they indicated they had no intention of stopping such unacceptable blockable behaviour but instead continuoing it, which suggests a warning would not have helped. You can try to argue they would have responded differently if just given a warning. But remember the primary purpose of a warning is to ensure people are aware their behaviour is unacceptable. As an admin who we hold to a higher standard, and was clearly aware of the unacceptablity and blockability of their offence, a block doesn't seem an unresonable course of action. And the uninvolved admin who made the block, Risker did make it clear they would unblock if Dreadstar had responded the way they should have responded. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm of the opinion is carries far less weight then the opinion of the person who was actually blocked, who is or at least was clearly of the opinion blocking was eventually at least, the correct course of action, which was what I'm pointing out. (What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.)
- BTW, you may or may not be aware, I've minorly involved myself with the pregnancy case although not to the extent of !voting (mostly because I'm undecided which image is better) so I've seen some of what is going on and I have little sympathy for Dreadstar from what I've seen. Although just to avoid further confusion, let me repeat, the situation is irrrelevant since no where in Dreadstar's comments did they imply the situation mattered; what they did say was calling someone a liar, regardless of the situation, was an unacceptable personal attack which would lead to a block. This also means there is only one significant player here, Dreadstar themselves, since whatever wrong doings Jmh649 may or may not have made are largely irrelevant, unless someone is suggesting they themselves are guilty of blockable offences.
- Nil Einne (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not quite sure what you mean in your comments, but let me say that the incident above does not even remotely resemble this one and was abusive in the extreme. The comment was taken our of context of the situation and the case. Further, I suggested and still do that an editor with a clean block log might have done well with a warning. Will posted his comments out of context and is getting the result of that, misunderstanding. I'm not on trial here and have right to my opinion on this as does every one else here. I'll add that I know more about this than most having been involved in this article and know the players from other arenas, and for that reason my opinion may have a different slant than some- not better or worse, just different. I 'll remind you that Dreadstar in the comments I've seen at least, has never commented on the appropriateness of the block. Yes this should be closed.(olive (talk) 23:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- I think the key point is Dreadstar clear knew his or her comments were not only incivil but personal attacks, and as he oor she f course also knew, as any admin should, that personal attacks are not tolerated on wikipedia. Trying to defend against a block for personal attacks by saying they are the truth and you're getting blocked for saying the truth, is not on, and frankly a little silly if you yourself have in the past acknowledged that what you're now saying is an unacceptable personal attack that will result in a block. Perhaps Dreadstar has since changed his or her mind but it does at least illustrate that they once understood and agreed with their block. I do agree an uninvolved user might as well close this thread. Nil Einne (talk) 18:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
This case has been marked as resolved.(olive (talk) 23:54, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- Do you mean Risker's close? If so, it's been like that since before anyone else's replies including yours and mine. Nil Einne (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Problematic behaviour
I am reporting KIENGIR (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for problematic behavior, repeated violation of WP:SOURCE, WP:NPOV and WP:NPA. I understand that this is a new user but I have tried everything and assumed good faith. The problematic article is Michael the Brave (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs).
- As it can be seen from the talk page, I have tried to explain several times why the changes this user wants to introduce are not appropriate: [96]; [97]; [98]; [99].
- All responses were confusing (3 km long and not refuting the central point) and in almost all of his comments derogatory remarks and personal attacks. Ex: [100] and in all previous links.
- I have tried to inform this user of all the problems on his talk page (since it is a new user): [101]; [102]; [103]; [104] but this only aggravated the problem..
- I have talked about this problem with another editor on my talk page also and easily reached an agreement [105].
- I have talked to an administrator [106] but no solution has been provided.
- Also I don`t want this to be a bad faith accusation, but since I saw the IP address of this user and the articles he edited, I am wondering if this user is connected to User:Stubes99 since his IP address has been 84.0.xxx.xxx, 84.1.xxx.xxx and 84.2.xxx.xxx. [107]; [108].
The point is that all this edit warring and the removal of referenced text before is not a big problem but the fact that he refuses to respect the WP:SOURCE and the need to "correct" this article to reflect (I quote) facts has no direct connection to my personal opinion, since these were facts long before I was born :) and to tell the "truth" which he isn`t giving up. [109]. Adrian (talk) 10:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- "Dear" Adrian,
you're wrong again, since my registration is really has no connection to any other account banned in the past or so, if the "firm" will ban me, don't worry, my next username will be KIENGIR2. Furthermore, I will nor repeat myself. Anyone, who deals with a little bit history, can easily understand my claim an understand THE PROBLEM (after you, it had to told unfortunately 40km long more times, but still you don't get it). Facts are facts. The claimed changes are obvious. If the page remains so, itt will mislead users. If you "reinforce" a falsity with an unreliable source, it can't be taken as a good aim. If you pretend you are a victim and you identify the other who wants only correct mistakes cannot be held longer, it is also not a good aim. You can't provide reliable and valid (contemporary) source, because it not exist. The page also admits this fact in a later section, thus the page is self-controversial, etc. I am sure, Wikipedia policies were (is being) formed) to serve the "good". Thus Wikipedia can only thank me I do so many effort to have a truthful, valid encyclopedia. Otherwise I think something is wrong, if evidential facts are denied. The agreement you made with an other editor was a good beginning, but you applied it only one, instead to correct the all three statements. This debate has elementary importance if can we present anything that has no (contemporary) source (using the the designation "Romanian" in an anachronistic way), or stating an union (as well a false designation used by a more hundred year later histography and having only a formal meaning by it's own desired interpretation, but never had a LEGAL form) although it haven't been accomplished the time then. This is an announcement for every user, editor, administrator, in order to emphasize the importance we can only STATE something (if it's not indicated as an other view or theory or equal) if it is correspondent with the contemporary EVIDENCE and since no counter-evidence or any proof exist that would prove it wrong (impossible). Consider could someone state "three Iraqi lands made an union in 4000 BC", altough the "Iraqi" is anachronistic, the term "Iraqi" is missing and never been used in contemporary evidence, they haven't made an union (and missing as well from contemporary evidence), but i.e. a millenia later someone would interpret the leadership of Sumerian lands as the precursor of modern Iraq, and most of it's national and other international works would refer and use this concept and would consistently citate it. If we are no in a joke site, it cannot be afford. Thank You for (hopefully) understanding it.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC))
- Kiengir ... I haven't looked at the rest, but did you honestly just suggest that if the community either WP:BLOCK or WP:BANS you, that you will intentionally and willfully WP:EVADE a validly-imposed block? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 13:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- The really regrettable thing here is that at least some of the content-related points Kiengir has been making appear to have a certain amount of merit. If he would only assume good faith and work collaboratively with others (as opposed to being confrontational, condescending, and paranoid), he could make valuable contributions here. A sad waste of talent. It looks like we may have to manage as best we can without his assistance. — Richwales (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- The main problem is that User:KIENGIR obviously challenged some data from the article after which I added 3 reliable references to the article and 2 more on the talk page(If needed I can find more references) and he still wants to "correct" the article to reflect the "truth". From WP:SOURCE - The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.. I am not really interested in personal attacks he made, but on the long run, and looking at this problem from all sides, this kind of behavior can`t be ignored and that is the reason I have written this report. Adrian (talk) 19:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- The really regrettable thing here is that at least some of the content-related points Kiengir has been making appear to have a certain amount of merit. If he would only assume good faith and work collaboratively with others (as opposed to being confrontational, condescending, and paranoid), he could make valuable contributions here. A sad waste of talent. It looks like we may have to manage as best we can without his assistance. — Richwales (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I will answer all of your questions:
- ->Dear BWilkins & Blackmane (his message can be read on my talk page)
- Continously accusing me about personal attacks, etc. and last but not least accusing me with a kind of "(post) sock puppetry" is not the reperesentation of the "good faith" principle, regarding Adrian. The claimed changes were not revolutionary, but necessary and this all kind of mess could be avoided if Adrian wouldn't tried to make a provocation of discrediting everything and pretend no understanding, just speaking about rules and policies. This was the cause, this was not a "collaborative work" from his side. I can only suggest he felt itself ashamed about so big slips the page are peresent, and better continued to accuse me about behavior than be calm and find a real consense (later someone on its tak page convinced him about some necessary changes) If the citations Adrian added are regarded RELIABLE although they are not this case (only reliable for that today's histography speaking about union, but UNRELIABLE if we see pure history and contemporary evidence), then there's some problem with the policy and rules I think. However this case will be a good precedent. The "bad faith accusation" was awful from Adrian, since this kind of IP address is used by approx. 3 million people in the country, since the ISP distributes a random generated address to every users who connect. That's why I made this kind of irony, assuring everybody I am not the one who would alter or hinder it's true identity!
- ->Dear Richwales
- "The show will go on", I will always try to do my best, and keep all policies and rules, but if somebody consistently discrediting facts and evidence, then I have no choice....I have to make all efforts in order have a good, realiable encyclopedia, otherwise I would deny myself. Regards (KIENGIR (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC))
- I am sorry but accusing me of bad faith and "not being calm" (especially from you) at this point is just ridiculous. Repeating again and again the WP:SOURCE has no sense anymore since clearly you don`t respect it. Again and again you are using wikipedia as some kind of forum. Wikipedians don`t use wikipedia to talk with people about their opinion on some matter but facts that can be checked at any time. Since this discussion is always going toward "the truth" some user believes, I am asking for an administrator to review this and solve this problem.Adrian (talk) 12:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- There are established dispute resolution procedures on Wikipedia. Vowing to wage an endless "edit war" in defence of truth is not one of these established procedures. Deal with these problems as the content disputes which they evidently are; direct and restrict your comments to the issues and not to personalities; and find and propose high-quality reliable sources to support any proposed changes or additions. The fact that you're sure something is true is not good enough here; you've got to verify it with suitable sources, so that other people can confirm that it's true and don't need to take your word (or the word of any of us) for it. The reason people are complaining about you is not because of any conspiracy by the Wikipedia "firm" to suppress the truth; it's a matter of your conduct, not the content as such. The show will indeed go on, and it would be nice to have it go on with your assistance, but that is only going to happen if you respect the established procedures and work with others in a constructive manner. — Richwales (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh Adrian, you're funny thinking you repeat the same arguments cannot be held longer...about your "bad faith": everyone can see the part your first reaction: "which is not an accurate statement as that the unification of the three Romanian principalities. " THIS THE POINT!!! You agreed at the first time the unification is not an accurate statement, but THOUGH instead to have a good faith and resolve the problem, you REINFORCED the false allegation with more citations can be regarded in a point of view a verifiable source, but cannot be accepted because it is announcing an obvious lie. If you really had a good faith, you wouldn't do that. What a nice coming out! Ooooops...and you try to play again the "personal opinion" card, although this case as well it has no direct connection to the hapennings between 1599-1601 :) Verifiability is important but since you could citate any web page with any statement, their content cannot be accepted always valid. Sorry, you are caught heavily...Try harder next time! From now on everybody can think about is is really the "wolf wanted to eat grandma", or maybe the opposite is true? Is it really somehow paranoid? Dear Richwales, we could not call it a real edit war since I have stopped editing on my own will for a period the case discussed on higher level. I hope you can understand, regarding Adrian's behavior he is really suspicious why will he reinforce something he as well do not agree...Finally again about verifiability: I think is not good, if any kind of false statement could be advertized in an article because there are "verifiable" sources announcing them, without PROOF, and it should be held as long as the true statement we don't present a source again, if claiming this source is enquestionable, because this case we should present a counter-evidence of something NEVER happened, although the normal way we have to have a PROOF on what really HAPPPENED. This case is not an easy case! Consider if many sources state: "At the times of Michael The Brave purple frogs have fallen from the sky", then this statement should be advertized so long you don't present a source "fulfilling" Wikipedia's rules would say "The allegation at the times of Michael The Brave purple frogs have fallen from the sky is wrong"???? Normally such obvious counter-citation/reference won't exist, because it is never needed in a normal society...(I have to repeat, if we are not in a joke site) So long we won't present a citation about Michael The Brave haven't made an union, despite all of the contemporary documents and 400 years of research were unable to prove it will be regarded as automatically invalid??? In a normal jurisdictonal case, the one who accuse HAVE TO prove it's theory, if the correspondent and contemporary evidence proving it's opposite! In this case, Adrian have to prove a union was made (although as we could see he don't even believes in it, and can only present citations reinforcing a falsity), for that he should provide contemporary documents reinforcing him. So long the word union/join/etc. cannot be used on the page (and the fact the false information was present on the page EARLIER, has really no effect, in this case it is IRRELEVANT) I ask all adminsitrators, editors, users to really think and concern about this kind of problem, otherwise the encyclopedia's content will not be reliable, and most of the average people just read wikipedia and not verify every statements and it's sources, de facto they would mostly accept what is presented) Thank You!(KIENGIR (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- Kiengir, no, it's not about proving anything. We are an encyclopaedia - we reflect what the best sources say. You are right that sources which are low quality should be avoided - the article should be using good quality academic sources. However, if good quality academic sources say that it rained purple frogs, then that is what will go in the article. If there is a difference of opinion between scholars (some say the frogs were blue), then the article should reflect the difference of opinion between scholars. I note that you said at one point "All of the statements I mentioned here can be citated IF NECESSARY, but the reality and the truth is independent of simple citations" Actually, no. The rules of Wikipedia are very clear. You must provide sources. Go back to the article talkpage, and cite the sources that support a different interpretation of Michael's achievements. Then all the article editors can discuss how to include this new information. If you do not cite sources but continue to assert that the whole world knows different to all the sources currently in the article, all that will happen is that you will be blocked. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:33, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh Adrian, you're funny thinking you repeat the same arguments cannot be held longer...about your "bad faith": everyone can see the part your first reaction: "which is not an accurate statement as that the unification of the three Romanian principalities. " THIS THE POINT!!! You agreed at the first time the unification is not an accurate statement, but THOUGH instead to have a good faith and resolve the problem, you REINFORCED the false allegation with more citations can be regarded in a point of view a verifiable source, but cannot be accepted because it is announcing an obvious lie. If you really had a good faith, you wouldn't do that. What a nice coming out! Ooooops...and you try to play again the "personal opinion" card, although this case as well it has no direct connection to the hapennings between 1599-1601 :) Verifiability is important but since you could citate any web page with any statement, their content cannot be accepted always valid. Sorry, you are caught heavily...Try harder next time! From now on everybody can think about is is really the "wolf wanted to eat grandma", or maybe the opposite is true? Is it really somehow paranoid? Dear Richwales, we could not call it a real edit war since I have stopped editing on my own will for a period the case discussed on higher level. I hope you can understand, regarding Adrian's behavior he is really suspicious why will he reinforce something he as well do not agree...Finally again about verifiability: I think is not good, if any kind of false statement could be advertized in an article because there are "verifiable" sources announcing them, without PROOF, and it should be held as long as the true statement we don't present a source again, if claiming this source is enquestionable, because this case we should present a counter-evidence of something NEVER happened, although the normal way we have to have a PROOF on what really HAPPPENED. This case is not an easy case! Consider if many sources state: "At the times of Michael The Brave purple frogs have fallen from the sky", then this statement should be advertized so long you don't present a source "fulfilling" Wikipedia's rules would say "The allegation at the times of Michael The Brave purple frogs have fallen from the sky is wrong"???? Normally such obvious counter-citation/reference won't exist, because it is never needed in a normal society...(I have to repeat, if we are not in a joke site) So long we won't present a citation about Michael The Brave haven't made an union, despite all of the contemporary documents and 400 years of research were unable to prove it will be regarded as automatically invalid??? In a normal jurisdictonal case, the one who accuse HAVE TO prove it's theory, if the correspondent and contemporary evidence proving it's opposite! In this case, Adrian have to prove a union was made (although as we could see he don't even believes in it, and can only present citations reinforcing a falsity), for that he should provide contemporary documents reinforcing him. So long the word union/join/etc. cannot be used on the page (and the fact the false information was present on the page EARLIER, has really no effect, in this case it is IRRELEVANT) I ask all adminsitrators, editors, users to really think and concern about this kind of problem, otherwise the encyclopedia's content will not be reliable, and most of the average people just read wikipedia and not verify every statements and it's sources, de facto they would mostly accept what is presented) Thank You!(KIENGIR (talk) 12:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC))
- How bleak procpects....I think the world as well existed with all of it's evidence before any citations or source were provided, or before any scripts were born, but all right, I see. Then Wikipedia is about a "citation-war", and then good faith or aim cannot be guaranteed from any side because they will say "I could present a citation supporting my statement"...This is not a solution. Then only a good lobby would decide what is presented, dependent of the number of groups, supporters, editor's, adminsitrator's faith....then it is a kind of democratic thing....However history is not nothing to do with "democracy". There are facts and evidence you can prove, or cannot prove, and these are independent's of other views. A have finished this discussion, will not make further comment, but the "citation-commando" will start :D Bye(KIENGIR (talk) 12:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC))
Disruptive editing by User:Oncenawhile
Please excuse me if I'm doing anything incorrectly in this report, as to my recollection it's the first time I've reported a user.
Oncenawhile (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been engaging in disruptive editing relevant to a naming dispute involving two articles, History of the Southern Levant, and History of Palestine. On February 25, 2011 Oncenawhile moved History of the Southern Levant to History of Palestine despite History of the Southern Levant being in place for over two years and functioning as the only name for the article which hadn't lead to consistent move wars, and with History of the Southern Levant being praised as a good name for the article.
After the article was restored to History of the Southern Levant, Oncenawhile created a new page called History of Palestine, copying most of the content of History of the Southern Levant, and merely changing a few details here and there. The disruptive editing began as Oncenawhile then proceeded to redirect multiple wikilinks from History of the Southern Levant to History of Palestine. Here, here, here as well as here where he instead directed away from the History of the Southern Levant article to Ancient Israel and Judah. I spoke to him on his talk page, and informed him that I considered this disruptive editing, and that there were no problems with both articles existing, but redirecting links away from one and to the other in such a way was disruptive.
A few months later Oncenawhile did the same thing again by removing more links to History of the Southern Levant here and here and here as well as in two instances moving additional articles from History of the Southern Levant to History of Palestine here and here
After I restored the original wikilinks, Oncenawhile wrote on my talk page, attempting to debate why Palestine was a better name than Southern Levant. After I replied that it would be better to discuss this on the relevant article talk page, he said due to my "refusal to discuss" the issue on my talk page, he had "reverted my changes" Drsmoo (talk) 12:36, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- The community (or the AN/I cabal) might decide to take action here. But for allegedly long-term problems like this, WP:RFC/U may be a better venue, in case nothing comes of this AN/I. causa sui (talk) 19:09, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you Drsmoo (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi Drsmoo, your post above is misrepresentative. It includes incorrect facts, statements out of context, and neglects to mention key points.
- You neglected to disclose your authorship interest, as you were the editor who renamed the article to History of the Southern Levant in 2008. Your references to "the only name for the article" and "consistent move wars" regarding the original name of History of Palestine are misrepresentative. The article was stable under that name for seven years, until two isolated and immediately-reverted vandalisms in 2007 followed by the unilateral renaming which you carried out in 2008.
- You neglected to mention that you were blocked on 13 March 2011 for move warring re the article name. You also neglected to mention that the article had been stable following my February 2011 revert to History of Palestine for a meaningful period with numerous third party edits being made, before you began warring over the change.
- You made a highly misrepresentative statement re the current History of Palestine article, which you stated was built by "copying most of the content of History of the Southern Levant, and merely changing a few details here and there". Both the move and the content build were done slowly, with clear talk page discussion, and by painstakingly merging the content with the history section from the Palestine article. Discussion of this process took place over many months, and is recorded in the following places here, here and here.
- You neglected to mention that you partook in exactly the same practice in late March regarding swapping of links (rather than the better practice of simply adding a new link) and that our subsequent discussion on my talkpage which you linked to was cordial and mutual acknowledgement and understanding was reached between us immediately. And you have misrepresented my actions regarding the specific link changes you linked to. For example in this edit you linked to I removed a number of extraneous links, including to BOTH History of Palestine and History of the Southern Levant and in this edit you linked to I clarified a statement and removed an in-line link which violated WP:MOS
- Your final statement is again misrepresentative and places statements out of context to paint a picture. Your statement says "After I replied that it would be better to discuss this on the relevant article talk page, he said due to my "refusal to discuss" the issue on my talk page, he had "reverted my changes"", which bears absolutely no relation to the logic, cordiality and detail of the full discussion as recorded here.
If you wish to debate this matter further, please could I ask you to take more care with how you represent the facts in future. Perhaps in parallel we can get back to trying to debate the underlying substance of your editorial issue. Oncenawhile (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- You haven't responded to any of the accusations on here, you just immediately went and tried to make this about me. You replaced links from the original article to your new one over and over and over again, as the edits showed, I reverted your disruptive edits. Are you seriously coming on here and accusing me of doing what you flagrantly did because I reverted your improper edits? In addition it's blatantly untrue as I inserted a link to History of Palestine in the Archaeology of Israel article after you removed it. And two weeks with 18 edits is a "meaningful period" but over two years with hundreds is not? It is fine to have more than one article, but to try and replace one with the other in a way which avoids community consensus (for example, trying to discuss it on my talk page while avoiding the relevant article talk pages) is not. Wholesale removal of links and references to a long standing article is a clear cut example of disruptive editing. It is worth noting that Oncenawhile has also been cited for uncivil behavior on another noticeboard recently Drsmoo (talk) 07:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Drsmoo, I remain very keen to find a way to remove the emotion from this and move on, but you appear to be obsessed with making our interactions in to a long term WP:BATTLEGROUND (exactly as you did with the first user who made the mistake of being responsible for getting you blocked, as documented here).
- Your post above is again misrepresentative, for example: (1) "it's blatantly untrue" (despite evidence here, here and here amongst others), (2) you make no reference to either my explanation that the articles in question related only to the concept of Palestine and not to the Southern Levant or to our immediate consensual resolution which I referred to above, (3) "avoids community consensus" (despite the detailed article talk page discussions I linked to above, e.g. here), (4) "avoiding the relevant article talk pages" (ignoring the explanation provided on your talk page that since you made the same changes across multiple articles it seemed sensible to try to centralise the debate; (5) "cited for uncivil behavior" (when you mean "cleared").
- Oncenawhile (talk) 10:02, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I would recommend that you read the diffs you're citing, if you did you would see that the editor you referenced was in fact criticized for forum shopping and for not assuming good faith and told her accusations were untrue. In every single example you posted it was a case of me reverting your changes to the wikilinks. What you claimed is a blatant untruth. I reverted your changes. What you have done, has been to go around from page to page and methodically remove links to History of the Southern Levant. You made a talk page post on your new article, but no talk page discussion regarding any of the moves in their relevant talk pages, nor any talk page discussion of any of the changes of the wikilinks which you've made far and wide. Instead you tried to engage me on my talk page, which makes no sense as I am not heavily involved in any of those articles, and when I suggested that you instead bring it up on the relevant talk pages, you changed the names abruptly. This is not acceptable editing practice. Drsmoo (talk) 07:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I couldn't give two hoots about this dispute - however, this is a cut and paste move of content without attribution - so in it's current form most of that page should be deleted as an administrative rather than editorial matter. --Cameron Scott (talk) 10:50, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand your post. There was very clear attribution given on the talk page. Either way, the edit you've linked to is 8 months old - the article is completely different now having been merged with the history section from Palestine.Oncenawhile (talk) 21:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- The talk page is a nice addition, but the attribution must at minimum be in the edit summary. Please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia for more information. And please repair the attribution as described there. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your explanation - this has now been fixed. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The talk page is a nice addition, but the attribution must at minimum be in the edit summary. Please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia for more information. And please repair the attribution as described there. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:31, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand your post. There was very clear attribution given on the talk page. Either way, the edit you've linked to is 8 months old - the article is completely different now having been merged with the history section from Palestine.Oncenawhile (talk) 21:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by User:Hullaballoo Wolfowitz
This user has been consistantly editing entries I have made on a number of pages and has made no attempt to engage with me directly to address any concerns he may have about the fact based information I am adding. I believe a disturbing pattern of behaviour has emerged here and indeed his talk page provides examples of other complaints against his disruptive behaviour. Here are examples of his disruptive edits: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_Food_and_Drug_Administration&diff=prev&oldid=461335026 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Irish_Blood_Transfusion_Service&diff=prev&oldid=461125594 I request that this user be investigated. Many Thanks.
Proposing ban of User:Realhistorybuff
Due to gross incompetence, sockpuppeteering, and disruptive attacks. Nothing constructive is coming from him, and further edits will also likely need to be immediately reversed. Calabe1992 15:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't he already indef blocked? Mangoe (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. And has used multiple socks to get around it. Already well known over at SPI for attacks, mainly against Elockid. Calabe1992 18:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Incivility and personal attacks from The Pink Oboe
Bad Girls Club
Since nobody (not even an admin) commented on this, I'll bring it up since disruption is still ongoing
- Junebea1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Shannon6375 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user has a history of vandalizing Bad Girls Club-related articles. The user was first blocked by User:Master of Puppets on 27 September 2011 for adding a last name to a living person without a source for verification, multiple times after I and User:Master of Puppets had removed them. After he was lifted from his ban, he engaged in a WP:3RR edit warring with User:Alexgx [115]. Within 15 days, Junebea1 began showing signs of WP:OWN when he believed that the "notes" section of the article should appear to readers, his edit summary was "These will not be hidden because these instances have already occurred. Keep it how it is, or you will be blocked." which "Stop reverting my edits. We need to maintain consistency with the past seasons' pages, and this is how it is suppose to be. Stop or be blocked." followed [116]. The discussion on the Bad Girls Club (season 6) talk page was to hide the notes (though now I am more towards on having them appear to readers). I told the user about the discussion but never undid his edits, which I left alone, though my reply was to bring admin attention. After the user ignored many (many) warnings on his talk page and had been removing or adding content without consensus, I brought up a discussion on the talk page to help bring stability to the article. Junebea1's responses were "There is no "the" in the title of the Bad Girls Club though, so that will remain left out" and "I'm currently experimenting to the find the best color that works" which I addressed that changes like those should be made by the community (consensus) and not on what he thinks or feels is right. (Other WP:OWN comments "DO NOT remove any references ever, or you will be blocked. And Shannon is not Shelly or Cheyenne's name so stop vandalizing it or you will be blocked.", "Stop hiding them because it makes no sense. You will be blocked for vandalism. You have to follow the past seasons' pages. Don't hide nothing, it will confuse the readers. Also, Cheyenne was forcefully removed by Tiara, so it's called a removal.") On 25 October 2011, the user gave me a warning for no pair reason. He was subsequently warned by User:Calabe1992. When I had created Bad Girls Club (season 8) article on 14 November 2011, it soon caught the eyes of vandalizing IPs and was semi-protected several hours later. The next day, Junebea1 redirected the article to its new name and added unsourced content, fancruft and removed statements that were sourced by a WP:RS. I reverted his additions and removals however, he undid my edit and decided to remove all sourced information except the cast members first names on the article. After Juneabea1 had undid my edit he gave me another warning. On 17 November 2011, Juneabea1 believed he should remove information from a WP:RS because he felt the author made a slight error. However, myself and MikeAllen disagree with his WP:OWN statements. Of course that didn't stop him from doing it himself.
I'm done with giving this user "last warnings" when they really do nothing to prevent Junebea1 from making contributions without consensus from the community. I think a temporary ban from editing Bad Girls Club-related articles is best, however, I'm not an admin so I'll leave this to you guys :)
- Shannon6375
This user was blocked three times however, this user just vandalize the article Bad Girls Club (season 8). Immediate attention to these and its related articles needs admin help. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 20:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have already explained myself in the last report you made to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. I don't understand why you are bringing up past incident's to get me blocked, when we already resolved this. I apologized for any disruptions I may have created in the past, and now all your doing re-reporting this. Since some of the comments you have made to me made me feel uncomfortable and some actions you have taken as an editor here, I have decided to report you, and this report is below. I once again apologize for any misunderstandings and disruptions I may caused, and as I said before it won't happen again, and it hasn't happened yet. Thank you for your time and consideration. Junebea1 (talk) 21:20, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why are you bringing so much WP:DRAMA to Wikipedia. You said in the last report that you wouldn't edit without a consensus yet you did it today, that's why I'm reporting you again and not feeding on what you said again. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- There isn't a need for consensus when you are placing sources that are unreliable (i.e., an imprecise press release found here, and a website, which you deem unreliable but then support a user using as as source found here) I was only following what you were saying when you said it was unreliable. I was agreeing with you. How is that bringing drama, I'm just saying the facts. Also, you don't have any WP:EQ because you aren't forgiving and forgetting on problems that were solved a couple of days ago. I once again, apologize, I'm not sure if you accepted it or not, but I'm trying to bring drama, I'm just trying to solve the problems. Junebea1 (talk) 21:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I never placed an "unreliable" source to the article, secondly there's only one source on there. Thirdly, the drama is bringing up an AN/I report on me, when we both know I have done nothing wrong and have helped in preventing vandalizing going on. Lastly, why would I have an EQ if you continue to be disruptive in editing? There's been times I left messages to warn you and when there were discussions about your edits and yet you still feel as though you're additions are correct and the consensus are wrong. Though you have every right to deem the consensus built as wrong because you went WP:BOLD however, as respect, why don't you just talk about editing before you edit? Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- What's the difference? You reported me... twice. I turned the other cheek when you did it the first time because I realized I was wrong, but now you are reporting me again for all of the same reasons, which were resolved, that means you're wrong this time. That is WP:DRAMA. And I haven't been disruptively editing at all since you reported me the first time. I'm only going on FACTS. I am only going against the consensus because it is supporting unreliable sources. Why would I support the consensus if they are supporting unreliable sources and information, it just doesn't make any sense. I as well have been stopping vandalism from other users, specifically, User:Shannon6375. Thank you. Junebea1 (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- The difference is I accepted your apology on the first report because you said "it won't happen again" however, you went against the consensus again by removing statements that were sourced. TVbyThenumbers.com is considered a WP:RS, if you think otherwise bring that discussion to WT:IRS. You're so called "FACTS" are not supported by the source so it shouldn't be included to a WP:BLP the difference from adding unsourced information to a WP:BLP oppose to un-supported facts to the lead is, the person you are adding/removing information is a living person and cannot have unsourced statements per WP:BLP, that's why I added a {{citation needed}} tags to the lead. Per WP:edit summary you need to add a summary of your edit, which you did not to do the vandal you undid. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 22:48, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- The specific press release is not reliable because there are discrepancies throughout the article. That is unreliable. If it were straightforward and was consistent, then it would make sense to continue using that source, however it wasn't. Also you stated modelmayhem was unreliable, yet you support information that is backed by modelmayhem. That doesn't make any sense. You shouldn't be allowed to pick and choose when you feel that the source is reliable. That is WP:OWN. The "consensus" was wrong for trying to use unreliable sources for the information. Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense. Thanks! Junebea1 (talk) 00:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The difference is I accepted your apology on the first report because you said "it won't happen again" however, you went against the consensus again by removing statements that were sourced. TVbyThenumbers.com is considered a WP:RS, if you think otherwise bring that discussion to WT:IRS. You're so called "FACTS" are not supported by the source so it shouldn't be included to a WP:BLP the difference from adding unsourced information to a WP:BLP oppose to un-supported facts to the lead is, the person you are adding/removing information is a living person and cannot have unsourced statements per WP:BLP, that's why I added a {{citation needed}} tags to the lead. Per WP:edit summary you need to add a summary of your edit, which you did not to do the vandal you undid. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 22:48, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- What's the difference? You reported me... twice. I turned the other cheek when you did it the first time because I realized I was wrong, but now you are reporting me again for all of the same reasons, which were resolved, that means you're wrong this time. That is WP:DRAMA. And I haven't been disruptively editing at all since you reported me the first time. I'm only going on FACTS. I am only going against the consensus because it is supporting unreliable sources. Why would I support the consensus if they are supporting unreliable sources and information, it just doesn't make any sense. I as well have been stopping vandalism from other users, specifically, User:Shannon6375. Thank you. Junebea1 (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I never placed an "unreliable" source to the article, secondly there's only one source on there. Thirdly, the drama is bringing up an AN/I report on me, when we both know I have done nothing wrong and have helped in preventing vandalizing going on. Lastly, why would I have an EQ if you continue to be disruptive in editing? There's been times I left messages to warn you and when there were discussions about your edits and yet you still feel as though you're additions are correct and the consensus are wrong. Though you have every right to deem the consensus built as wrong because you went WP:BOLD however, as respect, why don't you just talk about editing before you edit? Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- There isn't a need for consensus when you are placing sources that are unreliable (i.e., an imprecise press release found here, and a website, which you deem unreliable but then support a user using as as source found here) I was only following what you were saying when you said it was unreliable. I was agreeing with you. How is that bringing drama, I'm just saying the facts. Also, you don't have any WP:EQ because you aren't forgiving and forgetting on problems that were solved a couple of days ago. I once again, apologize, I'm not sure if you accepted it or not, but I'm trying to bring drama, I'm just trying to solve the problems. Junebea1 (talk) 21:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why are you bringing so much WP:DRAMA to Wikipedia. You said in the last report that you wouldn't edit without a consensus yet you did it today, that's why I'm reporting you again and not feeding on what you said again. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:29, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm seeing WP:DR for you two. Squibbling at this board about content issues and asking for temporary blocks for possible ownership issues... continue at your peril. Doc talk 01:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
User:AJona1992
- AJona1992 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
This user was originally blocked for sockpuppeting, but was eventually unblocked for promising never to do so again. I think this user should have remained blocked, that's just my opinion. This user is threatening to report me to AN/I, but I'm reporting him for his reckless behavior. For instance, I tried to use modelmayhem.com as a reference on Bad Girls Club (season 7) to confirm a cast member's full name; however, he decided that this website was unreliable, and he kept removing this reference. However, in another instance, User:MikeAllen, decided to use this website as a reference for another cast member's hometown, which User:AJona1992 agreed with his decision. This is WP:OWN in my opinion because User:AJona1992 is picking and choosing when he feels this website is reliable as a reference, and that shouldn't be allowed. Also, this User:AJona1992 called me honey, which is sexual harassment, here is the source that states this is sexual harassment. Here is the discussion where this user calls me honey and shows signs of WP:OWN: Talk:Bad Girls Club (season 8)#Gia. I'm not pressing charges. Also, this user shows signs of WP:CRYSTAL when he stated, "Maybe Gia was born raised in NJ but lives and considers herself from DL. Though only the episodes (or the 30 min preview coming soon) will tell." This information suggests a solution to me and User:MikeAllen's discussion about the sourcing for a cast member's hometown; however, he is just assuming something about her life, which could be true or false. He is supporting a source, which he originally deemed unreliable, by assuming (WP:CRYSTAL) something about a cast member's life, which supports the "unreliable source". Also regarding the discrepancy in the press release, if there is a discrepancy in the press release article, doesn't that make it unreliabe? In the article, found here, it lists Gia as from Newark, Delaware; however, it then goes on to call her a "Jersey girl." That is clearly a discrepancy, however they are supporting this reference by keeping it as a source, and User:AJona1992 is saying we need to come to a consensus, when it is clearly a fact that there is a discrepancy in the article. We shouldn't be using sources riddled with errors and discrepancies. I think a temporary block from editing on Wikipedia is best, but I am not an administrator... so I'll leave this for your discussion. Thank you very much! Junebea1 (talk) 21:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't going to comment on this but after reading the second sentence I feel as though I should say for the third time to you that I never agreed with Mike's source, I only agreed with what he stated on his reply to you. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh goody ... tit-for-tat ANI filings usually end up with BOTH parties blocked. Yaay! *munching popcorn* (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:24, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt that Model Mayhem is a reliable source. Not only are they not notable enough to have a WP page, but they clearly state: "We do not control the Content posted through the Model Mayhem Services and, as such, we do not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content and disclaim any and all liability in connection with such Content."[117] That's like using IMDB or WP content as a source, and we can't do that. Doc talk 21:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I understand that, but User:AJona1992 is telling me it's unreliable, which is fine, but then goes ahead and agrees with another user (User:MikeAllen) who is using that website as a source for the very information he (User:AJona1992) is agreeing with. Thanks for your consideration. Junebea1 (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Lolz again for the fourth time I agreed with what Mike was saying not the source. Best, Jonayo! Selena 4 ever 21:45, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I understand that, but User:AJona1992 is telling me it's unreliable, which is fine, but then goes ahead and agrees with another user (User:MikeAllen) who is using that website as a source for the very information he (User:AJona1992) is agreeing with. Thanks for your consideration. Junebea1 (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt that Model Mayhem is a reliable source. Not only are they not notable enough to have a WP page, but they clearly state: "We do not control the Content posted through the Model Mayhem Services and, as such, we do not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content and disclaim any and all liability in connection with such Content."[117] That's like using IMDB or WP content as a source, and we can't do that. Doc talk 21:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Oh goody ... tit-for-tat ANI filings usually end up with BOTH parties blocked. Yaay! *munching popcorn* (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 21:24, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
me hears the distinct whup whup sounds of a boomerang in the air Blackmane (talk) 21:55, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Once again, I understand that you never supported the source, but you did agree with the information that was supported by that source. Junebea1 (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Wasn't this report supposed to be about the never ending Shannon accounts? Anyway, I was just showing you that another website exist that corresponds with the Oxygen press release. Her Facebook account also list her in the Delaware network. At this point oh well, wait until January. —Mike Allen 23:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- (since Junebea was noted in the original thread, then opened an obviously related ANI thread, I brought them together with a subsection) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Wasn't this report supposed to be about the never ending Shannon accounts? Anyway, I was just showing you that another website exist that corresponds with the Oxygen press release. Her Facebook account also list her in the Delaware network. At this point oh well, wait until January. —Mike Allen 23:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Once again, I understand that you never supported the source, but you did agree with the information that was supported by that source. Junebea1 (talk) 21:57, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Deletions by involved editor under claim of "close paraphrases"; Mkativerata
A colleague, Mkativerata, who is an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as defined by WP:ARBPIA, has today deleted variations of 2 sentences in an ARBPIA bio of Ilan Berman (3 times in half an hour).[118][119][120] Claiming that they are "close paraphrases". The 2 sentences were edited three times to seek to address his claims, and additional refs added.
Whether or not he may have been correct initially, certainly by his most recent deletion IMHO there was no merit to his claim. I'm concerned with the aggressiveness of his deletions, without talkpage discussion, especially given the ARBPIA aspect of this. I've myself opened up discussion of the issue on the article's talkpage, but not received any response there.
Perhaps an admin can keep an eye on this matter? I'm concerned that it is spiraling. I'm not asking for any other action as to Mkat. Full disclosure: In the past I've communicated concern to this editor about his behavior, and have felt that he responded aggressively and sought to exact retribution inappropriately for my having having voiced my view, so I am hoping that this is not a continuation of that, and that I will not suffer from retribution from him. Many thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:59, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Epeefleche is the subject of a long-running CCI that has uncovered a long history of copyright violations. I'm working through the CCI and I'm not going to be distracted by obstructionism. Working on a CCI requires the deletion of substantive amounts of a contributor's work. And I'm not going to be bullied out of it. And nor am I going to let the fact that I have declared myself "not uninvolved" in respect of ARBPIA stop me from removing copyright violations, being a non-POV matter. CCI needs whatever help it can get. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- My noting that you are "an involved administrator in respect of the Israel-Palestinian conflict" as defined by WP:ARBPIA is simply a reflection of what you have yourself indicated. Given the sensitivities in that area, and your being an involved editor, when you delete material such as the above under the claim that it is a copyright violation, and the claim appears baseless, that raises a concern that your "involvement" is an issue.
- I agree of course that copyright violations should be addressed. Your most recent deletion, certainly, was nothing of the sort. You also failed to discuss the matter on the talkpage, despite making 3 deletions in half an hour. When unwarranted deletions are made by involved editors, that can perhaps be a problem. Involved editors can always alert other editors when they believe there is a problem, especially if it is not a clear-cut matter--I find it hard to believe that you felt that your last deletion, for example, was a clear-cut copyright violation. I'm not asking that action be taken against you. I'm simply asking for more admin eyes, as I feel you reacted with aggressive retribution in the past. Thanks.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:23, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. There is no suggestion being made that Mkati is using copyright policy to game the system, which would be a problem. This would also be a problem if Mkati were ignoring some discussion that had already taken place, but the petitioner doesn't suggest that is happening. According to the complaint itself there is nothing here requiring administrative action. causa sui (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Involved editors can of course delete blatant vandalism. And I would extend that to blatant copyright violations. Mkat's most recent deletion was certainly nothing of the sort, however -- not a copyvio at all, and certainly not a blatant copyvio.
- As with involved editors in wp:admin, by analogy, "administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about. Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor ... and disputes on topics". As WP:ADMIN indicates, it is best practice in cases where an administrator may be seen to be involved to pass the matter to another administrator via the relevant noticeboards.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- This is a stretch. Involvement is construed broadly so that we can discourage administrators from gaming the system to enforce their own positions in content disputes. According to your own account there isn't any reason to believe that that is what he is doing, and I don't understand you to be implying that either. If I'm reading you correctly, your argument is strictly procedural. Since it is a much bigger danger to include a copyvio than to remove a non-copyvio, it would be better to convince the interested parties that the edits aren't actually copyvios. Then we could move on. causa sui (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not a stretch at all. WP:ADMIN clearly indicates the concern: "involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about." Such is the case here. Repeated deletions, at an article in the ARBPIA content area, by an admittedly involved sysop. No credible claim of copyvio. Zero talk page discussion, while making the deletions. That this is being done in the highly sensitive ARBPIA area heightens concern as to the approach. There's no need to throw around an accusation such as "gaming the system to enforce their own positions", however apt it might be. Hopefully, the eyes of admins on this will help us avoid future problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think you get it. You violated copyright policies for years. Our policies now allow the "indiscriminate removal" of the information you added during that period. You are fortunate that I am not taking "indiscriminate removal" to the full extent to which it is allowed. Any editor can remove your information -- it has nothing to do with being an administrator, I am not acting as one, but even if I was, I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Indiscriminate removal should mean being fairly liberal in removing copyvios that are discovered from Epeefleche's edits, it does not mean removing information Epeefleche wrote just for the sake that he wrote it. That is disruptive. SilverserenC 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, it does mean that. Policy is that "If contributors have been shown to have a history of extensive copyright violation, it may be assumed without further evidence that all of their major contributions are copyright violations, and they may be removed indiscriminately. See Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Basically, once things reach the point of a CCI, all contributions by an editor are to be assumed copyvio unless proven otherwise. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- That seems like it could be very disruptive though, especially when you're considering articles that other users have likely worked on and expanded afterwards as well. SilverserenC 21:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't a matter of "assuming copyvios". We are talking about Mkat's deletions yesterday -- years (and 50-80,000 edits?) after I wasn't familiar with our copyvio rules. And the material Mkat deleted here was by no means a copyvio. His assertion to the contrary notwithstanding. Mkat wasn't "assuming" anything. He looked at the language and the source and made a completely unfounded assertion, without tp discussion, in his COI area.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- In that case, uploading copyvios is what is disruptive. That subsequent editors then rework the copyrighted content (making the Wikimedia Foundation a distributor of an unlicensed derivative work) that then has to be removed is disruption caused by the person who uploaded the copyvio, not the person who removed it. A lot of thought has gone into this and the legal implications of unlicensed derivatives combined with the high ratio of (effort to detect copyvios:effort to add copyvios) make wholesale removal of legally dubious content a cost of doing business around here. causa sui (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The issue here, above, involved Mkat hiding behind the dubious assertion of copyvio. I doubt an objective editor would find this -- his most recent deletion -- to be a copyvio. When an editor deletes material under such a dubious claim of copyvio, that could easily be seen as disruptive if it is part of a problem. He also failed to use the talkpage for discussion -- or even respond to discussion opened on the talkpage. That is also not good practice where one is deleting material three times in an hour. This is compounded by the fact that this matter is in the ARBPIA area, where sensitivities are heightened. And, of course, it is further compounded where (as here) the sysop is without question an involved editor. I've no problem at all with real copyvios being struck. But that's not what was at issue here at all, as you can see if you look at the diff provided.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- In that case, uploading copyvios is what is disruptive. That subsequent editors then rework the copyrighted content (making the Wikimedia Foundation a distributor of an unlicensed derivative work) that then has to be removed is disruption caused by the person who uploaded the copyvio, not the person who removed it. A lot of thought has gone into this and the legal implications of unlicensed derivatives combined with the high ratio of (effort to detect copyvios:effort to add copyvios) make wholesale removal of legally dubious content a cost of doing business around here. causa sui (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Basically, once things reach the point of a CCI, all contributions by an editor are to be assumed copyvio unless proven otherwise. - The Bushranger One ping only 21:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, it does mean that. Policy is that "If contributors have been shown to have a history of extensive copyright violation, it may be assumed without further evidence that all of their major contributions are copyright violations, and they may be removed indiscriminately. See Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- My initial concern was prompted by the fact that Mkat: a) deleted material 3 times in half an hour; b) with a wholly dubious claim of copyvio (see his most recent deletion), c) failed to communicate via talkpage; d) in the sensitive ARBPIA area; e) where Mkat is an involved editor; f) without modeling best behavior as called for by wp:admin. I raised the issue here so others could keep an eye on this, and ensure that it does not inflate, as I've felt he has lashed out in the past when I've disagreed with him. I agree with Silver that Mkat's edits here were leaning towards the disruptive.
- Indiscriminate removal should mean being fairly liberal in removing copyvios that are discovered from Epeefleche's edits, it does not mean removing information Epeefleche wrote just for the sake that he wrote it. That is disruptive. SilverserenC 16:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think you get it. You violated copyright policies for years. Our policies now allow the "indiscriminate removal" of the information you added during that period. You are fortunate that I am not taking "indiscriminate removal" to the full extent to which it is allowed. Any editor can remove your information -- it has nothing to do with being an administrator, I am not acting as one, but even if I was, I will not hesitate to block you if you continue to disrupt the resolution of your CCI. --Mkativerata (talk) 01:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not a stretch at all. WP:ADMIN clearly indicates the concern: "involved administrators may have, or may be seen as having, a conflict of interest in disputes they have been a party to or have strong feelings about." Such is the case here. Repeated deletions, at an article in the ARBPIA content area, by an admittedly involved sysop. No credible claim of copyvio. Zero talk page discussion, while making the deletions. That this is being done in the highly sensitive ARBPIA area heightens concern as to the approach. There's no need to throw around an accusation such as "gaming the system to enforce their own positions", however apt it might be. Hopefully, the eyes of admins on this will help us avoid future problems.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- Mkat today appears to be reacting to my having disagreed with him, by seeking retribution. As background, when I first started at wikipedia -- many years ago -- I followed what I saw as wp practice; practice that was not in compliance with our rules. Not knowing our rules in this area, I did indeed make errors at that time, and years ago added some material that should properly be cited, revised, or redacted. I have years of editing since then, with tens of thousands of edits, and now that I have read our rules I've complied carefully with them.
- But Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete in toto some articles I've worked on. Articles of Olympic athletes. As in this deletion of the Yves Dreyfus article today. And this deletion of the Vivian Joseph article today I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate ; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Epeefleche, this is what happens to serial copyright violators. I had to do it to User:Gavin.Collins. If it makes you feel any better, I'll do the next batch of content removal. If you could provide a list of all your copyright violations...but given the volume, I doubt you'd remember. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- This is a very transparent modus operandi: file an ANI report and then claim that any subsequent action is "retribution". Then canvas (for which you've been blocked before) your mates who tried to prevent a CCI being opened ([121], [122]) under the guise of being neutral (soliciting the uninvolved Yoenit as well [123]). --Mkativerata (talk) 22:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ugh. causa sui (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Mkat -- you've not addressed the concerns I raised above about your recent deletions. Instead, you seem to be seeking to deflect the discussion. Weren't you an involved editor, deleting material multiple times, the last time (at least) clearly not a copyvio (though you claimed it was), who despite being an involved editor failed both to engage in talkpage discussion and to -- given your being an involved editors -- post the issue elsewhere so it could be addressed? Rather than seeking to engage in character assassination, over what happened years ago (and I don't have clear recollections as to edits from five years ago), and many tens of thousands of edits ago, when I did not know our rules -- let's focus on what you did the past two days. As to your accusation of canvassing -- are you serious? Take a look at wp:CANVASS -- that is an absurd and unwarranted accusation -- it does little for the conversation when editors make baseless assertions. That's not canvassing -- quite the opposite, it is what wp:CANVASS indicates is not canvassing. As to "M.O." -- let's be clear. You are the involved editor who under the baseless (certainly, as to the most recent edit) guise of copyvio deleted material in an area you are involved in, refused to use or respond on the talkpage. And now in retribution, immediately after I disagree with you at a wholly unrelated article, you delete in toto bios of Olympic athletes. I've no problem as I've indicated with copyvios being redacted. But the fact that your reaction to someone disagreeing with you is to do this is problematic -- surely, the entire articles are not copyvios, and surely, the fact that athlete x, from country y, won medal z in the Olympics of xxxx is not a copyvio ... yet you delete even that.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ugh. causa sui (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- But Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete in toto some articles I've worked on. Articles of Olympic athletes. As in this deletion of the Yves Dreyfus article today. And this deletion of the Vivian Joseph article today I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate ; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Come-on people; let’s cease with wikislogans like If it's possibly a copyright violation, it should be removed immediately pending peer review. Even Wikipedia sometimes uses *real evidence* here at ANIs. “Close paraphrases” are not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination nor do they constitute plagiarism if it they are merely a “close paraphrase”; the litmus test is stricter than that. Anyone who editwars under such pretense has no leg to stand on. Given that Mkativerata is an involved editor, he must abide by the 3RR and edit warring restrictions everyone else are expected to abide by.
I note Mkativerata’s fine posturing like how he won’t be “distracted by obstructionism,” but there are only so many ways short pithy English-langauge sentences that are grammatically correct can be constructed. The proper test for whether close paraphrasing must also be accompanied by an in-line citation is paraphrasing very closely. It is irrelevant whether a collaboration between Zeus and Oprah “uncovered a long history of copyright violations” and this caused Mkativerata to role his eyes *extra-extra* far into his forehead, nor does it matter if these two editors hate each others guts, nor does it matter if Mkativerata postures with Great Determination®™© and speaks of overcoming obstructionism; the only relevant issue here in this ANI is whether Mkativerata’s serial reverting has a proper foundation. And that means the basis must pass the “Reasonable Man” test: Let’s see hard evidence one way or another as to whether the deleted text is a paraphrasing “very closely” and is deserving of having an in-line citation.
It might also be interesting to see if we have an 800-pound gorilla in the room no one is talking about. Is this about a pro-Israeli editor and an anti-Israeli editor bashing each other, trying to make substantial changes to the message point of the articles, and are trying to justify their actions by hiding behind the apron strings of misapplied policies? Who is *really* doing what, and why? Is there *really* “very close” paraphrasing? If that’s the case (and I see no evidence yet that it is) are Mkativerata’s remedies (wholesale deletion of text along with accompanying citations) best serving the project(?) or is are his edits just POV-pushing under a pretense that can’t be buttressed with real evidence? Greg L (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- A close paraphrase of a copyrighted work is indeed a copyright violation as an unauthorized derivative work. T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Can be, but not always. Paraphrasing a single sentence is out of a long article is generally fair use and thus not a copyright violation. A cited statement that is reworded from a single sentence of a source is, AFAIK, generally acceptable in any setting as long as it is cited. Academics do this all the time (summarizing someone's work by using a close paraphrase of a sentence or two of an abstract is extremely common). Hobit (talk) 00:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The blanking Epeefleche describes is typical procedure in copyvio situations, and you need merely to look in the history to find what has been blanked. As to what has been covered over, let's take the Vivian Joseph article. The major source says:
They finished in fourth place, but in 1966, the silver medal-winning German team of Hans-Jurgen Baumler and Marika Kilius were stripped of their medals after they were alleged to have signed a professional contract prior to the 1964 Olympics. The Josephs were then moved to third place and awarded bronze medals. In 1987, however, the German duo was officially reinstated by the IOC and the original results were restored; the Josephs, who had held the bronze for over 20 years, were moved back to fourth place and the USOC does not officially recognize them as medalists.
This is what Epeefleche placed in the article
They finished in 4th place. But in 1966 the silver medal-winning team of Hans-Jurgen Baumler and Marika Kilius of Germany were stripped of their medals, after they were alleged to have signed a professional contract prior to the 1964 Olympics. The Josephs were then moved up to 3rd place, and awarded bronze medals. In 1987, however, the Germans were officially reinstated by the IOC, and the original results were restored. The Josephs, who had held the bronze medal for over 20 years, were moved back to 4th place. The USOC does not recognize them as medalists.
The rest of the Joseph article contains similar copy-and-paste-with-a-few-words-changed blatant copyright violations and its blanking was both utterly necessary and required. If Epeefleche does not want this to happen, then the best course of action would be to actually work with the CCI to correct the problems that s/he admits exists, before they get blanked. A much more productive course of action. --Slp1 (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- As I said above, "I can't see what he deleted, so I don't know whether some level of deletion is appropriate; it may be. But certainly, I can't imagine that there is a need to delete such articles of Olympic athletes in toto. This is just this sort of retribution by Mkat that I was afraid of. BTW -- can you tell us what date that edit was added? Also, Mkat -- directly after I disagreed with him yesterday -- has now undertaken to delete completely some articles I've worked on on Olympic athletes. It stretches the assumption of good faith past the breaking point to think that the timing of his deletions is not accidental, but rather direct retribution. And it is hard to believe that there is not material capable of saving--without any risk of copvio whatsoever--along the lines of "Joe T is an American boxer who won a gold glove in boxing as a heavyweight at the 1976 Summer Olympics".--Epeefleche (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Very good. Thank you for providing the much-needed, hard evidence, Slp1. Indeed, that is not merely the “close paraphrase” that Mkativerata cited for his deletions but passes the “reasonable man” test for being what plagiarism states as requiring an in-line citation (very close paraphrasing). So why doesn’t someone (Epeefleche?) just add in-line citations to the paragraph? This seems to be an edit dispute where the content and thrust of the article is being changed by the deletion. If Epeefleche objects to that, why not add a citation? Greg L (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- You appear to have a very serious misunderstanding of copyright issues. In-line citations will not solve this issue in any way. This is neither close paraphrasing nor plagiarism. It is a very clear cut copyright infringement. May I suggest that you read WP's policies on this matter? WP:COPYVIO.--Slp1 (talk) 00:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- What I actually understand and what you think I understand are two different things. I’m done with you today, too. Adios. Greg L (talk) 00:47, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Plagiarism is pretty clear that adding an in-line citation to closely paraphrased content taken from non-free sources is not a solution; of "works under copyright that are not available under a compatible free license", it says "They cannot be closely paraphrased for copyright concerns, but must be substantially rewritten in original language." --Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- But ... the edit that Mkat most recently deleted, under the dubious guise of copyvio, wasn't copyvio at all. The fact that he failed to engage in talkpage discussion, and did it in a sensitive area in which he has a conflict of interest, merely compounds the matter -- if there were even a gray area of concern as to copyvio, and for some reason he was opposed to talk page discussion, he could simply have posted his concern on the appropriate noticeboard so that an uninvolved editor could address it. But the main point is -- Mkat seems to be asserting copyvio where there is none, in an eare where he has a conflict of interest.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
If Greg L thinks close paraphrasing is "not copyright violations by any stretch of the imagination" and indisputably not plagiarism then Greg L's opinion on this matter is to be actively mistrusted. In fact, given the precedent of long-standing editors turning up at ANI and making such statements, it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you can’t understand what others write, then you ought not spout off as you just did Thumperward. I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- An ad hominem response to a serious copyright situation is not helpful. Actively suspicious, in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Now you are just trying to bait me. Try looking in the mirror next time when it comes to ad hominem responses. You started it with your “actively mistrusted” bit and then jump up and down and cry foul when someone gives you a dose of your own medicine. Then you further tried to bait me by writing it'd be good if someone took a fine-toothed comb to Greg L's longer contributions to confirm that this wasn't indicative of additional copyvio problems, which is straight out of 6th grade. How the hell old are you?? Stop acting childish and attacking others and try reading what they actually write before spouting off with something half-baked; the operative point in my above point was the adjective “very”; that point was obviously lost on you. I’m done responding to you today since I’ve got your number now, fella, and it’s obvious you enjoy personal attacks and baiting (I’d sorta bother with an ANI of my own for that hogwash, but that would be lowering myself to your level). Why not find another venue at which you can be an ornery, miserable cuss? There is ample electronic white space to get the last word. Happy editing and goodbye. Greg L (talk) 00:14, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- An ad hominem response to a serious copyright situation is not helpful. Actively suspicious, in fact. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you can’t understand what others write, then you ought not spout off as you just did Thumperward. I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here. Greg L (talk) 00:03, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've little interest in being drawn into some interminable flame war, especially not with you. My comments were directed at that wider part of the community whose concern with copyright both in the hard legal sense of "we are liable to be sued here" and in the broader sense of "Wikipedia is best avoiding a reputation for a lax attitude to potential copyright issues". Your comment in defense of presented diffs showing at least the latter was troublesome. My experience in this area on WP strongly indicates that editors who make statements defending such things are more likely than average to have made such considerations regarding their own edits in the past. Your response to this was "I now know I can ignore the nonsense you write here", which as a rebuttal is seriously lacking. Forgive me for also not taking you at your word that you're disinterested in having the last word here when my current edit conflict indicates you spent at least five minutes editing this response in order to add the "ornery, miserable cuss" comment, a readaibly blockable personal attack only overlooked because there are bigger issues here (serious allegations of copyvio). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Didn't we just topic ban someone for refusing to work on their own CCI? Why isn't the same thing done here, especially since this CCI has now been around for about a year and Epeefleche has yet to help clean up the mess he created? T. Canens (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
For the record, here are the two sentences in question (AFICT)
- Source
In the new book "Tehran Rising," author Ilan Berman notes that the U.S. war on terrorism has inadvertently removed two of the major brakes on Iranian power in the region: Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in Iraq and the Islamist Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan.
- Wikipedia
He wrote in his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States that in displacing Saddam Hussein, in Iraq, and the Taliban, in Afghanistan, the United States had unintentionally taken away two significant checks on the power of Iran in the Middle East.[8]
- I think that the "inadvertently" is arguable a WP:OR problem (though common sense probably applies). I think that there are only so many ways to communicate the idea of the sentence and this one would seem reasonable to me. But others, more versed in copyright issues, should probably comment. Hobit (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Even if you think that this version is adequate, it is worth noting what Mkativerata first removed as a paraphrase.
- What mkativerata removed
In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman noted that the U.S. had inadvertently removed two major brakes on Iranian regional power: Saddam Hussein in Iraq and the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan
which is much, much too close to the original source. Epeefleche made incremental changes[124] [125] all of which which Mkativerata stated, I think legitimately, remained too close to the source, before arriving at this current. --Slp1 (talk) 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Does making incremental changes to a copyvio until the wording is sufficiently different from the original make it no longer a derivative? INAL but my sources say "no". causa sui (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I certainly hope so. Otherwise we should just delete, rather than fix, any detected copyright violations. Plus, a quote that short in a non-profit (yes it matters) is almost certainly fair use so the issue is fairly moot. I personally think the first version is highly problematic, the last was fine and shouldn't have been deleted. Hobit (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry you don't overcome close paraphrasing with a thesaurus. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I don't have anything better. Could you provide a way to say that same thing without being a close paraphrase? Or is it the attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem? (Sorry that sentence sucked, did I mention I don't write well?) Hobit (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- If an editor lacks the skills to do it (and I don't mean that perjoratively), in-text attribution is a safe way around the problem. And does the sentence need to be in the article in the first place? If the sentence derives from one sentence in one source, it's probably not important. So yes, it can be the very attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem --Mkativerata (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I believe I understand your points, but I will disagree. There are times that a single sentence can and should be paraphrased from a source. Ignoring if this is such a case, I think that the (final) paraphrasing used is about as far from the source as it could be while still making the same point. Would "In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman claims that by displacing Saddam Hussein and the Taliban from the Middle East, the United States left room for Iran to fill the vacuum they left." be any better? Eh. Like I said, I think the final version was acceptable, but I agree the first was certainly not. YMMV. Hobit (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree w/Hobit. And my focus is, as well, on the third deletion that Mkat made (in half an hour, without talkpage discussion). I don't think that unwarranted assertions of copyvio should be used by a sysop, who is bound by wp:admin, and who is without question an involved editor, to delete material he doesn't like. Copyvio is a serious and important concern. But simply saying "I assert it is a copyvio" does not entitle Mkat to bludgeon other editors, where there is no copyvio.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I believe I understand your points, but I will disagree. There are times that a single sentence can and should be paraphrased from a source. Ignoring if this is such a case, I think that the (final) paraphrasing used is about as far from the source as it could be while still making the same point. Would "In his 2005 book Tehran Rising: Iran's Challenge to the United States], Berman claims that by displacing Saddam Hussein and the Taliban from the Middle East, the United States left room for Iran to fill the vacuum they left." be any better? Eh. Like I said, I think the final version was acceptable, but I agree the first was certainly not. YMMV. Hobit (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- If an editor lacks the skills to do it (and I don't mean that perjoratively), in-text attribution is a safe way around the problem. And does the sentence need to be in the article in the first place? If the sentence derives from one sentence in one source, it's probably not important. So yes, it can be the very attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem --Mkativerata (talk) 02:15, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I don't have anything better. Could you provide a way to say that same thing without being a close paraphrase? Or is it the attempt to say the same thing, in a single sentence, that was in the original, as a single sentence, that is a problem? (Sorry that sentence sucked, did I mention I don't write well?) Hobit (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry you don't overcome close paraphrasing with a thesaurus. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I certainly hope so. Otherwise we should just delete, rather than fix, any detected copyright violations. Plus, a quote that short in a non-profit (yes it matters) is almost certainly fair use so the issue is fairly moot. I personally think the first version is highly problematic, the last was fine and shouldn't have been deleted. Hobit (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Does making incremental changes to a copyvio until the wording is sufficiently different from the original make it no longer a derivative? INAL but my sources say "no". causa sui (talk) 00:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with most of what hobit says but would make the further point that we are dealing with here may not even be a close paraphrase of the source stated - that is if the source "Tehran Rising," by Ilan Berman contains a sentence reading
then the first version is a correctly attributed quote. From memory epeefleche's CCI was mostly filled with examples like this where one secondary source correctly attributes a piece of information to another secondary source and this attribution has been closely paraphrased to wikipedia. The material being paraphrased in these cases does not begin to approach the threshold of originality required by law to assert a copyvio. That said in these cases our concern should be one of sourcing we should endeavour to cite the claim in the book rather than citing an article discussing the book as the latter is more likely to appear to be a copyvio even if it isn't. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 10:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)the U.S. war on terrorism has inadvertently removed two of the major brakes on Iranian power in the region: Saddam Hussein's dictatorship in Iraq and the Islamist Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan.
- I agree with most of what hobit says but would make the further point that we are dealing with here may not even be a close paraphrase of the source stated - that is if the source "Tehran Rising," by Ilan Berman contains a sentence reading
User:Who R you?
Pretty gross civility violation here by Who R you? (talk · contribs), who remains unrepentant after receiving friendly advice. Not the first time – his talk page is littered with incivilities, and he is polluting the atmosphere with his flaming at WT:UE. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 04:36, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- There's no call for that, or for this either for that matter. I've issued a warning but given just what little I've seen of his behavior would have no problem with a block. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:53, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
He posted yet another blatant personal attack just a few moments ago.--Ohconfucius ¡digame! 06:01, 15 November 2011 (UTC)- This hot off the presses. I suppose you could count me as part of the "scum [that is] always around to abuse the process and whine and complain how they aren't treated nicely by the people they're fucking over". --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 06:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's part of a broader problem; there's plenty more like this Apparently I'm pulling a "slimy scumbag trick" by alluding to a source; Who R U is quite sure that sources don't exist and I'm making it up, although they carefully avoid calling me a liar. I've since explicitly linked to a source; but I'm sure we'll get another bad-faith TL;DR rant on that thread and in many others. Also, creating that wikiproject was just an attempted end-run around all those people who disagree with Who at the proper page; Who has a mission to remove diacritics, and mere consensus cannot be allowed to stand in the way of that mission. bobrayner (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please don't abbreviate his name as "Who". It tends to creates the Who's on First? effect. GoodDay (talk) 05:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- For another example, anybody who takes the time to read through the epic comments here will find an abundance of bad faith and sniping at other editors - for instance "P.S. Did they not even try to make the word lé to make it appear more foreign? Incroyable, ces enfants stupides!". bobrayner (talk) 12:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- As one of the non-scum and also a non-admin, I think temporary ban from all discussions involving English language might circumvent this, as the English language discussions seems to be the trigger of these outbursts. Then again, saying that probably makes me scum. ;-) --OpenFuture (talk) 14:05, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I love this rant. In the very same paragraph where he complains of people "abusing process", he insists that the solution to the likely deletion of his project is to find an admin willing to restore to user space... in abuse of process. Less concerning than his incivility (which to me are merely the ramblings of a zealot) is various comments about how it is better to let him keep his project rather than force them to rely on email, etc. Such comments have a very WP:EEML feel to them, and are of a far greater concern to this project than Who R's inability to handle dissenting viewpoints. Resolute 14:29, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is plain ridiculous. Talks about people abusing the system and wasting peoples time all the while he is attempting to do both. But you are right that does sound like a similar case to the WP:EEML. -DJSasso (talk) 14:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I believe there may have been some kind of offsite coordination in the diacriticals controversy in the past, although the attempt at creating a pov-pushing project is at least open to all viewers (but participation is limited to those who agree with Who R U). However, offsite coordination is very hard to prove (it's all very well suspecting it, but I've only actually uncovered it once, on Astrology). I'm curious as to how a couple of people on that side of the debate found and joined the wikiproject so soon - at first glance I didn't see any talkpage notification (which would have been canvassing anyway). Perhaps it's mere coincidence, and there are people who check the directory of wikiprojects every day for interesting new projects to join... bobrayner (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I'm a suspect, but I discovered the new WikiProject via following the creator's contributions. GoodDay (talk) 05:19, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- I believe there may have been some kind of offsite coordination in the diacriticals controversy in the past, although the attempt at creating a pov-pushing project is at least open to all viewers (but participation is limited to those who agree with Who R U). However, offsite coordination is very hard to prove (it's all very well suspecting it, but I've only actually uncovered it once, on Astrology). I'm curious as to how a couple of people on that side of the debate found and joined the wikiproject so soon - at first glance I didn't see any talkpage notification (which would have been canvassing anyway). Perhaps it's mere coincidence, and there are people who check the directory of wikiprojects every day for interesting new projects to join... bobrayner (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- That is plain ridiculous. Talks about people abusing the system and wasting peoples time all the while he is attempting to do both. But you are right that does sound like a similar case to the WP:EEML. -DJSasso (talk) 14:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Who R you? (talk · contribs) has also used more "conventional" canvassing; see this and this for example. Just by reading the RMs one gets the impression that the community's position on many moves is evenly split, or swinging towards removal of diacriticals; but in reality, one side is very good at "getting out the vote". bobrayner (talk) 16:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- FWIW, it looks like there's not much good faith on either side [126] [127]. causa sui (talk) 17:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, tempers are fraying on both sides, and I fear it may become a vicious circle. I would argue that the diff you present is not an ideal response to this rant, but it's certainly understandable: "Apparently living in Czechoslovakia has left you out of touch with the real world... Regardless of your inability to comprehend... scum are always around to abuse the process and whine and complain how they aren't treated nicely by the people they're fucking over..." - and there are many other diffs with a similar tone. Even if Who R you's canvassing and manipulation and mendacious misinterpretation of policy were to stop instantly, it is almost impossible for other editors to have a reasoned and civil discussion amid so many angry comments. Even hitherto calm editors can get sucked into the maelstrom. bobrayner (talk) 18:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Furthermore, this little gem shows that they're willing to game the system to stay "on the right side of" the PA line. Even without directly making an attack against anyone, there is still sufficient sustained violation of civility that this warrants a block. --Blackmane (talk) 21:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- For someone so involved in matters like does he really not realise Czechoslovakia hasn't existed for nearly 19 years or is he just being dumb? Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, tempers are fraying on both sides, and I fear it may become a vicious circle. I would argue that the diff you present is not an ideal response to this rant, but it's certainly understandable: "Apparently living in Czechoslovakia has left you out of touch with the real world... Regardless of your inability to comprehend... scum are always around to abuse the process and whine and complain how they aren't treated nicely by the people they're fucking over..." - and there are many other diffs with a similar tone. Even if Who R you's canvassing and manipulation and mendacious misinterpretation of policy were to stop instantly, it is almost impossible for other editors to have a reasoned and civil discussion amid so many angry comments. Even hitherto calm editors can get sucked into the maelstrom. bobrayner (talk) 18:02, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Good faith should be assumed only until overwhelming evidence of the contrary. --OpenFuture (talk) 04:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
- And he's at it again. I'm pretty sure, given his history of personal attacks and a warning to cease and desist from them - [128] - that this is blockable; see the comments in the third new section and his closing at the bottom of the diff. - The Bushranger One ping only 08:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, he is not the only editor commenting on other editors there. The real problem is that what he says about the other editors' behaviour is verifiably false. Contrast this:
- "The purpose [of WikiProject English] is to enforce one particular interpretation of policy. An interpretation that does not have consensus, and in fact if anything is in a minority when it comes to actual practice." -- "You and your buddies keep making the same claims that there is no consensus and that I'm only following one interpretation, and yet I keep providing word-for-word quotes of the policies and asking you to explain how it is that you're intepreting them and you never respond. I take that to mean that you can't figure out how to twist words like "… follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language …" to your purposes, and you know you'd look like a fool if you tried; so instead you use the common childish tactic of baseless accusation in the hopes that no one will consider your words too carefully." [129]
- With this, this or this gem:
- "[...] I'm still waiting for your reply as to why WP should ignore the sources; or is it the ol', because a small group of people continuously bring this subject up in one forum after another, fail to get consensus, and repeat, justification. And I've noticed that other people get complaints filed against them for disruptive editing for having dared to violate the private rules that WP:Hockey made up to replace all the other rules that say follow the RS. Funny how sometimes if you harass people enough they just give up rather than try to combat the private agenda of some. Maybe now more people can comment here as well as at Talk:Marek Židlický and this continuous disruption that's been going on for years can finally be stopped. [...]" -- "Because not all reliable sources are reliable for the spelling of a name. You've read all the discussions by the looks of the lists you wrote so you have likely seen the large number of reasons that have been given ad naseum. [...] Most likely things would have changed by now to include them had it not been for some hardline 'not in my country' editors who keep trying to bring it up in every forum possible and while making attacks on anyone who disagrees with them stating that they are only doing it because of mother country pride and the like. We are an encyclopedia, our goal is to provide information. Cutting out the proper spelling of someones name is counter to that goal. We should follow the establish usage of other reference works which in many (not all) cases use them as well as the highly respected manuals of style such as the AMA, APA, Chicago Manual of Style. It is crazy that wikipedia wants to be a reference work but we would ignore what reference works and the major style guides suggest we do and instead rely on sports reporters. Sports reporters are hardly reliable for the proper spelling of a name in a lot of cases." [130]
- That guy is repeating the same nonsense over and over. When you bother to refute it, he drops out of the conversation and occasionally one of his allies comes in instead, although more often there is no response at all. Then shortly afterwards, in a different thread or elsewhere in the same thread, he makes the same absurd claims again, and sometimes even explicitly denies the mere existence of the responses to which he closes his ears. If a project built on WP:CONSENSUS as its main decision making process tolerates this kind of behaviour for too long, it may as well close down. Hans Adler 10:06, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm interested in the tagteaming too. Is an SPI warranted? causa sui (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's refreshing, to know that the editors who're seeking disciplinary actions against WRy, aren't from the pro-dios side. GoodDay (talk) 20:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I might add that the statement you obviously fully understand that we 80s head-bangers were contemplating the Wagnerian look of the name and viewed the losers of WWII as our tough role models. It couldn't have been that selecting a foreign, non-English symbol, the umlaut, symbol of our parents enemies during the war, what they fought, killed, and died to destroy, that we thought that it would piss them off that the heavy metal that we blared contained a symbol that represented that which they at one time despised. No, you're right of course; we teenagers were contemplating the Wagnerian influence and wanted to follow in the footsteps of those tough losers that surrendered. (in the original diff when I restored this from archive) seems to me to either be accusing the other side of being Nazis, or accusing them of accusing his "side" as being Nazis. - The Bushranger One ping only 20:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, but your accusation seems a bit over the top to me. The sarcasm wasn't optimal here, but it was a detailed explanation of Who R You?'s position on a specific point, which in this case was actually more than reasonable. Spellings such as "Motörhead" (in which, by the way, the umlaut makes no sense at all) can definitely not be used as proof that umlauts are not foreign to English. The frequent use of black letters by the same scene clearly demonstrates that. Hans Adler 21:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- @causa sui, it probably would be a good idea. Seems like a strong possibility looking at his edit history how he jumped from new editor to doing things that don't look like something a new user would do. @Bushranger it's funny you mention Goodwin's law as I almost posted something about that when I noticed him calling people Communists down below. Not exactly the same thing but a twist on Goodwins law. -DJSasso (talk) 20:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- All right. I'm not familiar enough to compile a comprehensive list of suspects. But if there are a lot then a sleeper check isn't a bad idea either. causa sui (talk) 21:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm interested in the tagteaming too. Is an SPI warranted? causa sui (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, he is not the only editor commenting on other editors there. The real problem is that what he says about the other editors' behaviour is verifiably false. Contrast this:
PMAnderson: likely breach of the conditions of his ban
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Background
In August PMAnderson was notified of his year-long topic ban by admin Elen of the Roads in these words, which I extract from his talkpage (and I underline for convenience):
Outcome of community discussion
There is no point in blocking now for civility issues occurring previously. Let us instead see if we can prevent repetition. Since all are agreed that WP:MOS is the current flashpoint, and there is a very considerable consensus that you need to stay away from it for some considerable time, let us try this. You are Topic banned from WP:MOS and discussions anywhere on the project concerning the Manual of Style or technical aspects of the use of the English language, including this talkpage, for a period of one year. I note that you have already agreed to leave this area alone, so I do not anticipate an enforcement issue, but if you should breach the ban, you can expect to be blocked for one week for a first offence and for the residuum of the topic ban for a repeat offence. If during the topic ban period, another substantial issue to do with civility, tendentious editing, personal attacks and/or disruption should arise, I have to advise that you face being banned from Wikipedia permanently. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
That text, or very similar, can be found at the original ANI discussion page dedicated to the case. See also subsequent discussion.
- The current incident
Neutrality recently posted at PMAnderson's talkpage (diff) to advise him of a discussion at WT:MOS, and PMAnderson responded at Neutrality's talkpage (diff). I quote PMAnderson's post in full:
All I am permitted to say
You have mistaken WP:MOS for a useful page, one full of advice derived by consensus from the actual practice of English writing. Observe who, and how few, defend it; observe whether their practice is based on English, or indeed on reason; observe how those who object are insulted and silenced (I have been silenced).
Then, if you see fit, do what I do: ignore it and write English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Though I did not bring the action at WP:ANI that resulted in PMAnderson's ban, I supported it – as one of the main victims of his disruption, incivility, and threats. I supported the ban in good faith and with clean hands, in the interest of the peaceful development of the Manual of Style – which had been disrupted by PMAnderson's activities, and which since his departure has benefited from a harmonious and collegial atmosphere. Productive work on WP:MOS has been able to resume.
Now I come here in the same spirit. It seems that PMAnderson is in breach of his ban. Rather than simply inform Neutrality that he was topic-banned and could not participate, he took the opportunity to denigrate the core style guide for the Project, and to revile the editors most dedicated to its maintenance. I am among them, as I should declare here. It is not for me to judge how PMAnderson ought to be dealt with, but I feel justified in advising the community of his recent behaviour. I leave it in the hands of those experienced in dealing with such recalcitrant abusiveness to determine what action might be appropriate.
NoeticaTea? 10:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Seems to be verging on triviality as a complaint. Find something a teensy bit more substantive as a violation. And have a cup of tea. Collect (talk) 12:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Collect, you might care to read Elen's decision. The text is above, underlined. The community discussion that led to this was so long and full of complaint against Mr Anderson that it had to be transferred to a sub-page. Community sanctions are either enforced properly or they may as well be disregarded by everyone. Which is it to be? Tony (talk) 13:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I'm not an admin, so perhaps I'm not supposed to be commenting here. But there are two separate issues: one is a breach of WP:CIV, and the other a breach of the specific ban.
- Civility. I'm unable to find any criteria under "Identifying incivility" that would allow us to characterize these remarks as uncivil. Nor are they disruptive: User:Neutrality asked for Pmanderson's opinion, and PMA explained on the user's talk page why he couldn't discuss the particulars of the query. In informing Pmanderson of this ANI action, Noetica even makes it quite clear that he's pursuing an old grudge.
- MOS ban. The technical issue is whether these very broad comments constitute a violation of the ban. I take the ban to mean that Pmanderson cannot discuss matters of style, either the guidelines on points of style as outlined on MOS pages, or the specifics of style on article talk pages or any other WP space. I don't take the ban as a sort of non-disclosure agreement, where he is forbidden even to say "I have disagreements with the MOS about whether the guidelines reflect correct English usage, and therefore I'm not allowed to discuss this with you." Which is all he really said. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Topic bans are (or should be) enacted to prevent disruption, not so we can have games of gotcha. IMHO this falls squarely in the latter.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree. It's more of a bitter comment on his ban, which is understandable, than about the MOS anyway. Let it be. --regentspark (comment) 13:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Cynwolfe. No breach of the ban has happened here. Pmanderson was asked to comment to a single editor on their user talk page. That is not the same thing as taking part in a discussion. The comment wasn't uncivil, albeit fueled by frustration perhaps, and their comments were not about any of the content of WP:MOS.--v/r - TP 15:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree. It's more of a bitter comment on his ban, which is understandable, than about the MOS anyway. Let it be. --regentspark (comment) 13:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Arguably uncivil, but I don't think it's a violation of his topic ban. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Clear breach.
This is not the first time that PMA has tested the limits and violated the letter of what was, by all accounts, a rather mild sanction, relative to the strong consensus to block him for a long time. A one-week block as a reminder of the terms that he must operate under is certainly justified; campaigning against the Manual of Style, even on a user talk page, is not OK. The terms of his ban instruct admins to block him for a week in response; I hope one will make that more than a hollow threat. Dicklyon (talk) 15:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- So what would you do to prevent others from inviting his comment in the future? Put a large banner on his talk page saying "
Don't feed theDon't discuss WP:MOS with PManderson"?--v/r - TP 16:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC) - There was no strong consensus to block him for a long time ? I made the vote to block was 21 (for) - 16 (against), which is definitely not a consensus. Elen's block is way OTT, IMO. -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 16:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Could I have that again in plainer English? I'm not sure what you mean. I haven't blocked PMAnderson...ever, as far as I recall. I closed the discussion and told him he was topic banned from a quite specific area, and I would block him if he ignored me, but I've not actually had to block him. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to put a warning on somebodies talkpage when (s)he has a topic ban, similar to the warning when somebody is blocked? It is quite possible that another editor will not know about a topic ban. Night of the Big Wind talk 16:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The topic ban is still on my talk page; that's how I can quote it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Wat does the MoS say about using words like "residuum"? Count Iblis (talk) 17:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I don't see any breach of his topic ban. And it's at the thin edge of the wedge of incivility, but seeing as how it's on his Talk page we usually allow a little more lattitude there. I don't think any action is required... --HighKing (talk) 17:30, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I wouldn't see saying just this and no more as a breach. Yes it was a bitter comment, but I can't see how it is incivil. Had it continued into a discussion about MOS, then he would have been in breach, but Wikipedia isn't in the business of dishing out non-disclosure clauses.Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I cannot argue with the closing admin. The exact language of the ban is that I am not to discuss "technical aspects of the use of the English language." I have not done so; however, if such a complaint comes my way again, I will ask Elen for her permission to take that harassment to ArbCom.
- The substantive discussion on which Neutrality asked my opinion is Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Does MOS:RETAIN override MOS:LQ?. It could use neutral voices more than this section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. I wasn't aware of the (apparently very extensive!) history involved. Since I don't know about the backstory (and frankly can think of few things more unpleasant than wading through pages and pages to find out), I have no particular comment except to say that it's a rather dramatic comment, but one that violates no specific injunction. I would concur with the sentiments of Cube lurker and User:TParis. Neutralitytalk 19:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Kudpungs improper use of speedy delete
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Kudpung speeded power to hire and fire without consulting it's talk page and then immediately went nonresponsive. This is not appropriate administrator action. I want their bit removed or serious counciling for them regarding their use of tools. I am attempting to notify them of this but am having client difficulties and would appreciate assistance giving them an ani notification. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Is this for real? No diffs
, possibly too many pints,and a request for de-sysop? Sleep it off, eh? Doc talk 11:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)- Please remove your personal attack immediately. I'm on a client that has serious limitations. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Personal attack? There was none and you should know it. Doc talk 11:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- "possibly too many pints" please, attempting to dismiss another editor by accusing them of substance abuse is a direct attack on their person. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. Don't do that again, Doc9871. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- He was suggesting a desyop, Thumperward. I... am gonna hold my tongue. Warning noted. Thank you. Doc talk 12:20, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. Don't do that again, Doc9871. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- "possibly too many pints" please, attempting to dismiss another editor by accusing them of substance abuse is a direct attack on their person. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Personal attack? There was none and you should know it. Doc talk 11:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please calm down, Fifelfoo, stop throwing angry accusations around, and try to explain what you think has happened in calm and unemotional terms - give us the timeline, provide diffs, and show us the steps you took to contact the admin directly with your concerns. And please provide a redlink to the actual article title so that other admins can examine your claims -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Please remove your personal attack immediately. I'm on a client that has serious limitations. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
you're welcome. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 11:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- thanks, my client is a mobile client. Within 2 minutes of the deletion the administrator had stopped responding. I had provided a rationale against the deletion on the deleted talk page which directly addressed the claimed deletion rationale. The speed of the deletion, the failure to read the talk page and the delete and logics behaviour is uncivil. It magnifies the existing power disparity between user and admin and cements it for any non-expert user. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 11:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Fifelfoo, I read the deleted article and it appeared to be a WP:DICDEF, with vague references to a number of possible IWW members. I would strongly suggest you continue discussing this with Kudpung; in the alternative, you know where WP:REFUND is.--Shirt58 (talk) 11:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- OK, quick look - Fifelfoo objected to the deletion, and instead of civilly approaching the deleting admin and asking for an explanation, instead posted an angry demand for its reinstatement - which is not the way to get a speedy and helpful response from someone. Then Fifelfoo brought the matter here just an hour later, demanding desysop, which shows extreme impatience at least. Fifelfoo, you need to calm down, approach people in a much less angry manner, and give them time to consider their replies - making polite requests rather than exploding angrily is the only way you'll get anywhere. There is absolutely no admin action needed here. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- speedies actioned in under one day with academic papers cited and with the speedy talk page structure followed by users but not by admins? Yes I'm angry and rightfully so. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 12:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, Kudpung made a mistake. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well, then there's no choice then but to desysop. I mean, there could have been a mistake here. Nice knowin' ya, Kudpung. Doc talk 12:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, Kudpung made a mistake. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 12:09, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- speedies actioned in under one day with academic papers cited and with the speedy talk page structure followed by users but not by admins? Yes I'm angry and rightfully so. Fifelfoo_m (talk) 12:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not helpful. You should stop being not helpful, or at least do it somewhere other than the main drama board. Fifelfoo, the phrase "power to hire and fire" is not even mentioned on Industrial Workers of the World right now; the right time to split to its own article would be some (long) time in the future when a split is required for length. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Whether or not Kudpung made a mistake is not the issue here - people, even admins doing Speedy Deletion work - can make mistakes. The issue is whether it should be here at ANI, and no, it most certainly should not be! Instead of exploding with anger, demanding the article's reinstatement, and demanding the desysop of the admin because he did not instantly comply, Fifelfoo should have behaved the way civilised and collegial Wikipedia editors are expected to, and discussed it politely over at Kudpung's Talk page -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:51, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not helpful. You should stop being not helpful, or at least do it somewhere other than the main drama board. Fifelfoo, the phrase "power to hire and fire" is not even mentioned on Industrial Workers of the World right now; the right time to split to its own article would be some (long) time in the future when a split is required for length. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)(edit conflict)(edit conflict)
- No civil attempt to discuss [131] [132] there or here - per WP:DR.
- The patroller's deletion criterion was appropriate and after checking met with my approval.
- Wrong noticeboard - if any, the place is WP:DELREV.
- No one, whether editor, admin, or any other volunteer is expected to jump to orders.
- And the 'client'? This is Wikipedia.
--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, "client" in Fifelfoo's post refers to his user agent rather than a customer: he's presumably on a mobile device of some sort. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- This belongs at WP:DELREV, not here. A point to note: the process outlined there says clearly: "# Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look." Of course we may be past this now and courtesy may have been the first casualty. But it would have been a better course than an immediate report here, which WP:DELREV notes should be a last resort when everything else has been tried. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 12:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The irony of Kudpung, one of the very few admins willing to run at the horrific mess that is NPP head-on, being dragged here (complete with a call for desysopping) is rather stunning. Every once in a while, I'd like to see the article creator take some responsibility when their article gets tagged/deleted; it's not like NPPers can read your mind. I can assure you that Kudpung isn't a baby-mutilating deletionist looking to destroy the most possible terabytes of text. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- This belongs at WP:DELREV, not here. A point to note: the process outlined there says clearly: "# Deletion Review is to be used where someone is unable to resolve the issue in discussion with the administrator (or other editor) in question'. This should be attempted first – courteously invite the admin to take a second look." Of course we may be past this now and courtesy may have been the first casualty. But it would have been a better course than an immediate report here, which WP:DELREV notes should be a last resort when everything else has been tried. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 12:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Block review
User: Wheres Dan is fairly new and displays some trouble understanding what is and what is not a reliable source at Talk:Tribe of Dan and User talk:Wheres Dan. After he called another editor an anti-semite here I've blocked him for 24 hours for violating WP:NPA. I don't really block that often, so a review would be welcome. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perfectly cromulent block. Not only was that particular diff about a clear a personal attack as you get, but it was after a series of equally troublesome interactions. If 24 hours doesn't result in the required attitude adjustment I'd just up it to indef. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Well within reasonable to me.--v/r - TP 14:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Good block. I only wish other examples of incivility when they're coming from not-so-new editors were dealt with this swiftly. causa sui (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Doncram creating unacceptable articles in mainspace again
Doncram (talk · contribs), after coming back from a 3-month break for disruptive editing, has created this article. Either he or I need an indef block, and at this point, I don't think I care which. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Note also this edit, where he claims that
there's athere will be a redirect pointing there.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:37, 18 November 2011 (UTC)- That seems to be an indiscriminate dump of a WP search result for "Chambers building". Hmm... T. Canens (talk) 17:44, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't see the issue. SarekOfVulcan is complaining that I added a hidden comment in a dab page, relating to an appropriate merger proposal, clearly laid out at Talk:Oak Hill#Merger proposal. After SarekOfVulcan deleted the comment, I restored (and updated) it. Is there a need for an ANI discussion?!???!!! If you have a view about the merger proposal that suggests the redirect, please comment in the merger proposal. For this you open an ANI case? --doncram 17:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- About the Chambers Building disambiguation page, I identified that there are multiple wikipedia-notable topics of that name, and began the disambiguation page. In one or more edits since then, i went back and forth to pages that linked to it and developed several valid entries. In the version S points to, the page is not fully developed, obviously, it was in progress. It was/is clearly tagged as "Under Construction" and has "NRHP dab needing cleanup" tag as well. If S objects to the dab page, he should open an AFD i suppose. For another example, see Chambers House disambiguation page, created by me in this edit, revised in several edits to this version. Do you have a problem with that. --doncram 17:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- KHCAA Golden Jubilee Chamber Complex is a topic "of that name"? And Everett Chambers? And considering "Chambers House" includes A. E. Chambers Octagonal Barn, yes, I have a problem with it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- It happens that there are two places Chambers barns that seem worth mentioning in the Chambers House dab page. The dab page covers places named exactly "Chambers House" or "Chambers Farm" or "Chambers Farmstead" or "Chambers Barn", and variations that are likely shortened to any one of those, in practice. There are many such dab pages. I don't see the relevance of any of this for ANI. I can't discuss further now, sorry. --doncram 18:17, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- KHCAA Golden Jubilee Chamber Complex is a topic "of that name"? And Everett Chambers? And considering "Chambers House" includes A. E. Chambers Octagonal Barn, yes, I have a problem with it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- About the Chambers Building disambiguation page, I identified that there are multiple wikipedia-notable topics of that name, and began the disambiguation page. In one or more edits since then, i went back and forth to pages that linked to it and developed several valid entries. In the version S points to, the page is not fully developed, obviously, it was in progress. It was/is clearly tagged as "Under Construction" and has "NRHP dab needing cleanup" tag as well. If S objects to the dab page, he should open an AFD i suppose. For another example, see Chambers House disambiguation page, created by me in this edit, revised in several edits to this version. Do you have a problem with that. --doncram 17:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
For the record, "Unacceptable articles" would include articles that might seriously violate BLP. Doncram's articles appear to be made in good faith and have a reasonable chance of withstanding closer scrutiny. So perhaps an indef block for SarekOfVulcan is called for per his own suggestion. Rklawton (talk) 18:24, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but if you're accusing me of creating articles that violate BLP, I'd really like to see examples instead of insinuations. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:28, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Read what you and I wrote again. You are complaining about "unacceptable articles" - so I gave you an example of an unacceptable article. I then defended Doncram's article as not unacceptable. Finally, since you stated that either Doncram or you should get an indef block, and since Doncram's edits aren't blatantly problematic, then you, per your own suggestion, should receive the indef block. Rklawton (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- You're saying that an article that included the text "The City Chambers in Glasgow , Scotland has functioned as the headquarters of ... 1889 The building originally had an area of 5,016 square metres. ... 8 KB (1,275 words) - 15:44, 3 November 2011" wasn't blatantly problematic? Doncram left it in that state and edited other articles until I posted here, at which point he cleaned it up.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope, I don't. I'd just fix it or tag it for cleanup, but I certainly wouldn't complain about it on AN/I. Rklawton (talk) 18:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- You're saying that an article that included the text "The City Chambers in Glasgow , Scotland has functioned as the headquarters of ... 1889 The building originally had an area of 5,016 square metres. ... 8 KB (1,275 words) - 15:44, 3 November 2011" wasn't blatantly problematic? Doncram left it in that state and edited other articles until I posted here, at which point he cleaned it up.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:36, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Read what you and I wrote again. You are complaining about "unacceptable articles" - so I gave you an example of an unacceptable article. I then defended Doncram's article as not unacceptable. Finally, since you stated that either Doncram or you should get an indef block, and since Doncram's edits aren't blatantly problematic, then you, per your own suggestion, should receive the indef block. Rklawton (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Doncram's first edit summary on Chambers Building indicates that he was uploading work done in the midst of having lost his internet connection, so it is possible that the initial creation was something he submitted quickly in the midst of frustration over internet problems. Regardless, Doncram knows that he could easily avoid this kind of confrontation by the simple measure of putting his draft pages in user space, then moving them to article space when he has finished improving them to an acceptable condition. --Orlady (talk) 19:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't like Sarek jumping on Doncram immediately after Domcram's return from a 3 month block. He should assume good faith and gently discuss problems, rather than essentially starting the discussion here. I'd think it's fair to ask Doncram to start some of these articles in user space, but confronted immediately (well, 2nd sentence) with "Either he or I need an indef block, and at this point, I don't think I care which." by Sarek, I'd say a 1-day block to S would be an appropriate response. I would also like to personally ask Doncram to get back into editing gradually, in a manner guaranteed not to upset anybody immediately. Smallbones (talk) 19:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- The original version of this article was definitely terrible and should have been created in userspace if that's the process that doncram wants to use for creating dab pages. However, after a bit of nudging he quickly cleaned it up. Nudging on his talk page probably would have gotten the same result as nudging on the drama board. Without very much knowledge of the circumstances of doncram's 3-month break, I'd say that an immediate kneejerk ANI complaint was uncalled for. —SW— comment 21:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Circumstance of the break can be found at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive713#Doncram, 1 August 2011. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- If he's now cleaning up after himself, he has learned something from his three month break. The block details here was to stop him transferring the content of another database into Wikipedia without any check being made on the quality of what was being imported (there were a lot of problems with the other database). All the time. Without stopping. And endlessly abusing both the guy who wrote the script that he used, and anyone who tried to clean up the mess. However, as I say, if he is now prepared to correct his own problems, then that's progress. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Need Some Help
Hey All, need a checkuser for a possible sock? I am having some problems with User:Ynotradio and his suspected socks User:PennHelper and User:76.98.205.8. This user seems to have some obsession with WXPN-HD2 because it used the branding "YRock" which was popular in Philly, which this user now uses on his online web stream (probably against copyrights). This user has tried on two different occasions to get the WXPN-HD2 page moved to a different page name. First "Y-Not Radio" (the name of his web stream) and then "WPLY-FM", neither of which is the legal name of the station under MOS or the FCC. It appears the user is now trying to move the WXPN-HD2 page to WXPN (WXPN and WXPN-HD2 are considered separate stations per the FCC and per MOS). This is tendentious and disruptive editing at it's worst...and just plain wasting the community's time. Even if a CU can't do a checkuser, could a DUCK block be put in place or at least one for disruptive editing? Thanks. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 18:50, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) I notified all three of this discussion and issued a COI notice for Ynotradio. WikiPuppies! (bark) 19:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. My fault on not notifying. That's what I get for editing when tired. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sockpuppet investigations is thattaway.--v/r - TP 19:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, the ol' pass the buck. While the SPI sits there for God only knows how long, this user can continue to disrupt Wikipedia. Great job guys. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- What makes you believe a checkuser is more likely to respond here? --Jayron32 19:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) SPI is used for record keeping. It may take longer in the short run, but it's use will be in the long run when behavior evidence is logged for socks that can be referenced for future WP:DUCK tests. This is the "Administrator's Noticeboard" and administrator's don't have CU rights. It's not passing the buck, it's sending you to the people with the tools, procedures, and expertise. In fact, the BIG BOX on top of this page says "Are you in the right place?...To report suspected sockpuppetry, see sockpuppet investigations."--v/r - TP 19:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I came to ANI because checkusers are normally admins to begin with. So, ANI is a pretty good place to find some admins and probably a CU or two. Hence my posting here. Also, I wanted to get this taken care of quickly (mostly cause I am tired of dealing with it) because my damned allergy meds have long since kicked in...meaning I am going to be out of commission for awhile. Normally SPIs need more information, have questions, etc. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding the SPI case, I've done a check. SPI really is the best place to iron stuff like this out. In #wikipedia-en-spi, a bot dumps all the diffs made to SPI related pages into the channel - you'd be surprised at how up to date we have the capacity to be. WilliamH (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I came to ANI because checkusers are normally admins to begin with. So, ANI is a pretty good place to find some admins and probably a CU or two. Hence my posting here. Also, I wanted to get this taken care of quickly (mostly cause I am tired of dealing with it) because my damned allergy meds have long since kicked in...meaning I am going to be out of commission for awhile. Normally SPIs need more information, have questions, etc. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:49, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) SPI is used for record keeping. It may take longer in the short run, but it's use will be in the long run when behavior evidence is logged for socks that can be referenced for future WP:DUCK tests. This is the "Administrator's Noticeboard" and administrator's don't have CU rights. It's not passing the buck, it's sending you to the people with the tools, procedures, and expertise. In fact, the BIG BOX on top of this page says "Are you in the right place?...To report suspected sockpuppetry, see sockpuppet investigations."--v/r - TP 19:43, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- What makes you believe a checkuser is more likely to respond here? --Jayron32 19:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, the ol' pass the buck. While the SPI sits there for God only knows how long, this user can continue to disrupt Wikipedia. Great job guys. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:38, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Sockpuppet investigations is thattaway.--v/r - TP 19:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. My fault on not notifying. That's what I get for editing when tired. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
IP hopper at Wikipedia:OTRS noticeboard
Can anyone think of anything useful to do about the IP hopper at Wikipedia:OTRS noticeboard who thinks we're violating his civil legal rights, and doesn't understand why we won't let him link to a Russian site that streams Beatles tunes? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:45, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps making clear that we are discussing the copyright law of the United States (under which we operate), not of Russia, and adding that we want to avoid breaching copyright anywhere? I'd rather not do it myself; this would be most impressive with short, linked quotations, and somebody who's up on it could find them much more easily. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Russian Federation is a signatory to the Berne convention (most ex Soviet countries are). He is breaching copyright under the Berne convention, Apple Records/The Beatles have not licensed their product for free streaming to anyone (not the BBC, not Steve Jobs, no one). He almost certainly knows this, and knows that his hack cannot last forever, hence his increasingly colourful demands. Recomend no response and reverting further edits - this isn't a language difficulty, nor is it our duty to explain to him how he is violating Apple Records copyright. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Current edit reverted via this discussion. Should the noticeboard perhaps be protected? Calabe1992 21:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Quick Suggestion: add the domain name beatles1.ru to the blacklist. At least make it difficult for him to post it anywhere - as well as prevent him from using Wikipedia to advertise a site that violates copyright law. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- See if he posts again. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Seems on a spamming run elsewhere as well from what I can dig up. Also, get this, there's claims posted about the content being licensed under the Creative Commons 3.0 Unported license. Heh. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Still at it. Could someone else please revert; I'm not going to war over it. Calabe1992 22:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Second thought - see edit summary. Legal threat justifying rangeblock? Calabe1992 22:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that's a legal threat in my book. (Note he also throws the S-word ("slander") out there in the edit itself.) - The Bushranger One ping only 22:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Second thought - see edit summary. Legal threat justifying rangeblock? Calabe1992 22:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Still at it. Could someone else please revert; I'm not going to war over it. Calabe1992 22:39, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Seems on a spamming run elsewhere as well from what I can dig up. Also, get this, there's claims posted about the content being licensed under the Creative Commons 3.0 Unported license. Heh. ROBERTMFROMLI | TK/CN 22:04, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Current edit reverted via this discussion. Should the noticeboard perhaps be protected? Calabe1992 21:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Russian Federation is a signatory to the Berne convention (most ex Soviet countries are). He is breaching copyright under the Berne convention, Apple Records/The Beatles have not licensed their product for free streaming to anyone (not the BBC, not Steve Jobs, no one). He almost certainly knows this, and knows that his hack cannot last forever, hence his increasingly colourful demands. Recomend no response and reverting further edits - this isn't a language difficulty, nor is it our duty to explain to him how he is violating Apple Records copyright. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- As the editor who apparently is restricting the IP hopper's civil rights, I have warned them multiple times (though it never seems to stick because they keep ip hopping). Shall we apply the DUCK test and blacklist the site, the email that they want to correspond on, and move on. I simply asked the OTRS volunteers to close the conversation in the "No, you can't link from WP to that site" manner. Hasteur (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Blacklist ahoy. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:52, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've added the link beatles1.ru to the spam blacklist due to the spamming/disruption. I'll look into if this needs to be also submitted for blacklisting at meta:Spam blacklist. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm also seeing the link at ru.wikipedia.org and fi.wikipedia.org ... will post at meta later today to request adding the link to the global blacklist (first need to step away from my system for a few hours). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- D'oh, you beat me to adding it. I added a notice explaining the server location/local copyright law matter. Personally, I don't think this is bad faith, just totally and utterly misguided. From my experience, Russians often resent, give no consideration to, or even reject copyright - usually because of the draconian restrictions and limitations on artistic freedom they have experienced in their modern history. WilliamH (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm also seeing the link at ru.wikipedia.org and fi.wikipedia.org ... will post at meta later today to request adding the link to the global blacklist (first need to step away from my system for a few hours). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:05, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Ray Nagin
Can I get some admin eyes on Ray Nagin? Since 5 November quite a bit of the article has been rewritten to cast Nagin in a more favorable light, including the removal of cited text [133]. All of the edits in that time period were by Craynagin (talk · contribs), an IP that geolocates to New Orleans, and a bot. I'm suspicious that Craynagin is Nagin himself or someone editing on his behalf (Nagin's first name according to the article is Clarence). —KuyaBriBriTalk 22:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Most of what has been added is blatantly unsourced. Unless anyone argues otherwise, I think virtually all of it can be reverted. Calabe1992 22:22, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- Reported to WP:UAA as well. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
- And I've just blocked him using
{{Uw-ublock-famous}}
. Salvio Let's talk about it! 00:33, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- And I've just blocked him using
- Reported to WP:UAA as well. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Vituzzu vs Spam
Hello,
I would like to bring to your attention a problem with an Italian Administator, Vituzzu : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vituzzu
He is keeping deleting all posts made by a group of sport fans who contact sport fanatics asking them if they are interested in an international forum about Olympic sports (completely non profit and totally free) that is absolutely not a Wikipedia's competitor.
He considers it spam and we don't, anyway even if whole Wikipedia considers it too, this doesn't justify what he started doing for some days.
As you can see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Biodin#Vietnam he started telling users that they will be FORCED to SPAM the forum on wikipedia.
That's absolutely false and that's a heavy damage against the forum.
Contact single users asking them if they would be interested in the forum could be considered spam (at least for Vituzzu) but that's a defamation and we really hope some decisions will be taken about that to stop him with his actions to damage Totallympics reputation.
Hope to receive good news.
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.161.224.5 (talk) 00:08, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- He's right. You're wrong. Stop. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:13, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Third opinion, just as you were informed here User talk:Smartse#Problem with an Administrator, please dont spam unsolicited material about your forum on Wikipedia. Heiro 00:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- You have been told countless times, by numerous different editors, that your contributions are spam and unwanted, yet you keep coming back under different account names and different IP addresses attempting to evade your various blocks. You know that sockpuppets aren't permitted on Wikipedia. Please desist. - David Biddulph (talk) 00:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have blacklisted the domain on the English Wikipedia per the long term abuse. WilliamH (talk) 01:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- And the boomerang spins on round and round...I see the D-word (defamation) in that OP too. - The Bushranger One ping only 05:20, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, these domains were blacklisted globally a few months ago. It's still a WP:BOOMERANG as these posts will be used as reasons to summarily reject any future delisting requests. MER-C 10:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- He considers it spam because it is spam. Spam is generally defined as the mass sending of unsolicited messages. Here's an idea: if you don't want your forum to be associated with spam on Wikipedia and among its editors, stop sending it out in unsolicited messages to masses of Wikipedia editors. WilliamH (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm trying to find out why the fact that he's an admin on the Italian Wikipedia makes it into the OP's rationale ... "welcome to the English Wikipedia". (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- "Logic and reason, m'boy...logic and reason." I forget where I first saw that used in this ironic context...but it fits so well...in unfortunatly far too many places. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:31, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Edit-warring as "method" for pushing article changes
The Chetniks article has recently seen two separate attempts to introduce changes to the article through coordinated edit-warring, in spite of active opposition on the talkpage. I cannot emphasize enough that the lede version being altered, and the section that was removed, are sourced thoroughly with numerous sources and stood in the article for literally several years. The changes also include POV blanking of sourced facts personally disagreeable to two users, and the misquoting of sources previously listed in the article. In other words, information was replaced with an opposed new draft, and the references that supported the (long-standing) previous version were simply moved to another piece of text they have little to do with (i.e. they were blatantly misquoted). The new draft proposal being introduced via edit-warring is actively opposed on the talkpage on the basis of bias through omission, as it ignores several sources (that were brought-up), and generally sports a pronounced POV.
Specifically: 1) an opposed draft of the lede has been introduced, with sourced text deleted, and 2) all long-standing (and fully sourced) mention of ethnic cleansing has been deleted through WP:SECTION BLANKING of the relevant article section. The two users edit-warring in concert to push these changes are User:Nuujinn (who writes the changes) and User:FkpCascais (who is acting as a sort of "enforcer").
- 1. edit war to introduce opposed lede changes
- 2. edit war to blank the Ethnic cleansing section
It is important to note that the users, since they are in fact gaming the 3RR system, are no doubt hoping to have the article protected - with their version on top. I will also point out that while I also did revert the users, I was restoring the status quo version, and refrained from violations of WP:3RR at all times. I had been attempting to establish WP:BRD, and have no intention whatsoever of reverting them at all in the future.
This is, of course, a classic method of pushing new opposed edits that exploits Wikipedia's own guidelines. Note the numerous benefits: two users keep restoring their new changes; if they are reverted then the user that reverted them can expect to be sanctioned also ("it takes two to edit-war") and will thus avoid reporting them, but if reported, their version is likely to get protected for good ("there is no wrong version") in spite of any sanctions (if any). If they are not reverted, then they're not really edit-warring to push their edits in the first place. Either way, the new changes find their way into the article, are there to stay, and they've successfully WP:GAMED THE SYSTEM. In my experience, it works almost every time. I am requesting that the edit be reverted, and the users be warned with regard to WP:BRD, in order to facilitate talkpage discussion. In the alternative, there is no point to any continuation of discussion when the users have twice now shown that they can basically do whatever they like. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 07:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps it is really time for admin intervention against DIREKTOR who made an incredible number of exactly 80 reverts (check by yourselfs) on Chetniks article since the day he inserted the highly controversial disputed text with manipulated and descontextualised sources. I restored the text that User:Nuujinn a neutral editor with much experiance has created in order to archive balance but DIREKTOR reverted. Then I removed the exagerated unsourced claim and left with what is sourced, but DIREKTOR reverts that as well. We are in front of a highly biased editor who is doing his best to manipulate the article in a way one side POV is represented and boicoting all attempts many other users are doing to archive balance in this article. DIREKTOR already had his version changed during the mediation at Draža Mihailović article, and now is doing all the efforts to keep his highly biased version on this other related article. Btw, DIREKTOR has using highly uncivil behaviour at discussions including numerous ethnically motivated accusations to a number of editors. FkpCascais (talk) 07:50, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- The lede is perfectly accurate and the statement you dispute is more thoroughly sourced than most on Wikipedia. The fact that it insults the "national honour" of a large number of right-wing-leaning Serbian users is another matter entirely. It stood for 3 years, and the fact that this was in spite of strong nationalism-inspired opposition, on an obscure Serbian history article, is if anything a testament to its accuracy and sourcing. Even if the utterly nonsensical "80 reverts" claim was anything more than your "estimate", taken as it is over a period three years it has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. User:Nuujinn is a "neutral" editor only as far as you yourself are concerned. He is in fact part of your own pro-Chetnik group, and that is actually quite an easily demonstrable fact. His proposal is opposed on good grounds, but he is content to have the edit-warrior notified and has beem avoiding discussion for days npw.
- It looks like this gang-edit-war might not receive the appropriate attention from the community. That would, without question, constitute a vindication of edit-warring as the appropriate tool for proposing new edits on the article at question. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Direktor, I often have some degree of sympathy for your position. The above statement just destroyed it. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:36, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- It looks like this gang-edit-war might not receive the appropriate attention from the community. That would, without question, constitute a vindication of edit-warring as the appropriate tool for proposing new edits on the article at question. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- (Sigh). I'm pretty well tied up right now finishing up house consolidation/improvement in RL right now, but any criticism of my actions or how they might have been better done is certainly welcome, either here or on my talk page. I'll have some time later today to catch up on what's happened in the last few days since I've been off line here. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Constant attacks by User:Deterence
From what I understand, User:Deterence was blocked a little a week ago for personal attacks on another user. In the few days after the block expired, he has launched another barrage of insults on other users participating in WP:ITN/C. Most disturbingly, he seems to be targeting the user who reported him for the first block. I'll let the facts speak for themselves:
Incivility and derogatory remarks:
- 01:59, 16 November 2011 "Ashishg55, it's taking a hell of a lot of personal self-control not to tear you a new one over that remark."
- 22:17, 16 November 2011 "Mamyles, that has got to be the most ignorant comment I have read all week."
- 20:01, 18 November 2011 "You've got to wonder about the mentality of someone who seems positively happy to have been the victim of police brutality.."
- 11:46, 18 November 2011 "I am not the least bit surprised to see that Doktorbuk made this AfD nomination. He is fanatically obsessed with removing all traces of the Occupy movement from Wikipedia and, as recent discussions with him have demonstrated, there is absolutely no reasoning with him whatsoever."
- 12:06, 18 November 2011 "The POV-pushing agenda behind this nomination/censorship could hardly be more obvious."
- 11:50, 18 November 2011 "Another pointless AfD nomination by an editor with too much time on their hands."
Personal attacks:
- 00:41, 16 November 2011 "Your assessment is so utterly simplistic that it is bordering on the ridiculous. Or you are trolling."
- 05:55, 17 November 2011 "This place seriously needs an IQ prerequisite."
- 07:24, 17 November 2011 "Yeah, go have another cry to mummy."
- 21:42, 17 November 2011 "Are you even REMOTELY capable of actually coming to grips about what we're even talking about?!"
- 21:59, 17 November 2011 "It's official. You're brain-dead."
- 22:05, 17 November 2011 "Were you in the Special Ed classes in school? Are you still in the Special Ed classes in school?"
This is only a small fraction of the edits he has made since he was blocked for incivility. After wasting ten minutes of my time "trolling" through his recent edit history, I cannot find a single edit in which he made a comment that was not confrontational or insulting in some way. I think this suffices to show that Deterence has not learned the lesson from his previous block; in fact, his behavior has became demonstrably worse. Perhaps a longer block or a topic ban would lead him to a better direction. JimSukwutput 07:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Funniest read I've had all week. However, I will make one point: only one of those quotes was addressed to "the user who reported him for the first block", so it's a bit of an exaggeration to suggest that I am "targeting" that particular editor. If anything, doktorb is the addressee of a disproportionate share of my wise commentary. But, that's only because he has learning difficulties. Or because he's a Republican. I'm not sure which because it's rather difficult to tell the difference. Perhaps I'll make a second point: harden-up you great girl's blouse. Deterence Talk 08:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Fully agree with Jim. I am at a loss at what should be done, as blocks apparently do not work. Warnings do not work either, see for example this very recent discussion at ANI or this recent warning. The reply above doesn't make me feel confident in that the incivility and soapboxing will stop either. Pantherskin (talk) 09:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Blocked for a week. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 09:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Comment I have only just logged onto to Wikipedia today. I find the language used in his reply ("that's only because he has learning difficulties") hideously offensive. I welcome the one week block, but would like someone to confirm if the tone of his reply on this page was taken into account (or will be) for any later ruling. Thank you for the swift response, it's great to see that these issues are sorted out quickly. doktorb wordsdeeds 10:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- This is his 3rd block for WP:NPA, and his 2nd in a week for it. Considering the brutal level of attacks he's now at (mental capabilities), I'd be willing to indef at this point - it's clear that the same antisocial/anti-rules tendencies that draw him to the Occupy- series of article are showing their very ugly face on Wikipedia, and it's not going to get better. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support indef - in fact, I was thinking of proposing it myself as I don't see any way a 1 week block will be effective -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Firmly supporting indef. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:30, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Fine with me. I just wanted to make sure they stopped right now. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 11:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- Firmly supporting indef. - The Bushranger One ping only 11:30, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support indef - in fact, I was thinking of proposing it myself as I don't see any way a 1 week block will be effective -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- This is his 3rd block for WP:NPA, and his 2nd in a week for it. Considering the brutal level of attacks he's now at (mental capabilities), I'd be willing to indef at this point - it's clear that the same antisocial/anti-rules tendencies that draw him to the Occupy- series of article are showing their very ugly face on Wikipedia, and it's not going to get better. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)