Talk:Christianity

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Before July 2003 More old debate

Fundamental tenet missing from first paragraph

If you know anything at all about Christianity, it is that its founder, Jesus Christ, instituted most famously of all that the body of believers that came to be known as "Christians" would be defined by their commandment to love one another.

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. Joh 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

This is the Zenith of the Christian faith and you have not for even a moment mentioned this fundamental tenet in the first paragraph. It is not subject to wavering interpretation, it is universal to the Christian faith. It originated with the founder of the faith and was carried to the death by martyrs of all denominations.

I will be checking to see that this is addressed some time in the near future. I am not just picking out a random verse here. It SAYS "All will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another". It is the only time Jesus ever talks about the appearance of the believers to the world. Even if it is that you are only concerned with the appearance of Christianity in this article, mentioning this commandment is crucial to doing that with any kind of integrity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gottservant (talk • contribs) 18:19, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Look, if no one is going to add the "New Commandment" to the first paragraph, I will just do it. I don't want complaints though - I have already spellled out more than enough reason to add it. 58.161.50.116 (talk) 13:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

This is ABSOLUTELY 100% correct, "Love one another" is essential to the definitionof what it is to be a Christian. A L S O THE BIBLE SAYS: in Matthew 7:15-16, 20 to WATCH OUT for false prophets,.. and that we will know them by thier fruit,.. by the way they act. New Living Translation (©2007) 15 Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?...20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. ByStander2 (talk) 17:55, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I would argue that this would be more appropriate under the article for #REDIRECT Jesus. It does not help a reader understand "what is Christianity" though would help a reader understand "who was Jesus" Diraphe (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment. Important though it is, it doesn't belong in the first paragraph of this article atleast. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:09, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

White Space

There is a lot of white space in this article in the following sections: Creeds, Trinity, Worship and Baptism. I've tried moving a few things around but can't figure out what is causing it. Does anyone know how to get rid of it? Jainsworth16 (talk) 15:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I've sized it at 100%, 125%, and 150%, and don't see a problem, so perhaps it's your browser or preference settings. Leaving this open. Dru of Id (talk) 16:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

I also am not seeing these white spaces. I agree with Dru of Id, sounds like a browser issue. Shearonink (talk) 18:14, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Cadiomals fixed it but must have forgot to change the help box to helped. I still don't understand what causes it and how you guys get rid of it. Jainsworth16 (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Jesus' Commandment

I think this section could be included if it is improved to include more than just a catholic reference. Jesus' command is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. The two are joined in that God is love. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments. -Catechism of the Catholic Church 202, 2196, 214- Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The statement that "His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments." consitutes original research. I am not an expert in CCC, nor do I know what the consensus is regarding it as a reliable source (for anything other than as a primary source on itself), but my search of the available texts does not produce any results for that phrase. --Tgeairn (talk) 03:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Section 2 Chapter 2 CCC 2196.Ghostprotocol888 (talk) 05:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The wording needs to be changed to avoid original research. This is a link to the ref http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2.htm being quoted. It doesn't say "love God as you love yourself" at all. It says "love God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength" and "love your neighbor as yourself". These two cover the entire law, including the decalogue. I think it makes sense to include it in this article and it makes sense to include it near the 10 commandments section, but I'm not that desperate to include it and open to other suggestions. If the source is considered primary research (i don't know why it would be), we can probably find simlar statements in Barnes, Clark, Gill, MHWBC etc. Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a primary source for the tenets of the Catholic Church. As such it can be used to source the Catholic interpretation of certain aspects, but cannot be used for generalised statements about Christianity as a whole. I don't know what "Barnes, Clark, Gill, MHWBC etc." refers to, but you do need a reliable secondary source for general statements about Christianity like the one Ghostprotocol888 tried to add. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:16, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I understand. Barnes, Clark, Gill and MHWBC are a few of the most well known commentaries on the bible. They interpret the text and give thier opinion, but also have their own bias e.g. Barnes and Clark tend to have arminian views, Gill is more calvanistic. I guess these would be secondary sources?? Jainsworth16 (talk) 11:38, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The Allegations that are being made against the posting of Jesus' Command are non fact based. They are not based on valid policy, due to the misinterpretation of wikipedia policies by other(s) opposing. In compliance with all wikipedia policy, an addition to the Christianity article was made -WP:CON-WP:VERIFY-. Blanking, illegitamate Vandalism has occured, where significant parts of a page's content is removed without any valid reason -WP:VAND-. View Article's history, the orginal edit by Ghostprotocol888 was removed without valid reasoning; there is a not valid claim of WP:OR on the first reversion; the original edit by Ghostprotocol888 meets wikipedia's verifiability requirements: At the time of the original edit, it was previously unchallenged and attributable to the article -WP:OR-WP:VERIFY-. Custom dictates that, "in most cases, the first thing to try is an edit to the article, and sometimes making such an edit will resolve a dispute" -WP:CON-. After the original edit by Ghostprotocol888, a reversion was made claiming WP:OR invalidly. Technically, this inavalid reversion and all further invalid reversions is Vandalism. The proper course of action is to create a talk page post, without invalid reversion (vandalism), or to engage revision of the original edit -WP:CON-. The actual course of action taken was making invalid reversion claiming WP:OR, a form of Vandalsim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.216.51 (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

IP 75.164.216.51 states that "the orginal edit by Ghostprotocol888 was removed without valid reasoning". Since I was the one that reverted the original edit I would like to dispute that claim. Ghostprotocol888s original edit stated: "Jesus' command is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. The two are joined in that God is inside every person. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments.", and this without any source at all provided. This is an edit that makes numerous claims: 1. That Jesus' command [sic] is To love God like you love yourself and to love your neighbor like you love yourself. 2. The two are joined in that God is inside every person. 3. His command establishes a logical and causal connection to all ten commandments. So I count at least 3 claims made, all of them unsourced. And no, a reversion made in good faith and in a content dispute does not constitute vandalism. I would advise you to read up on those policies that you so eagerly try to cite. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Alternate wording suggestion

According to the synoptic gospels, Christ generalised the law into two underlying principles; 1)'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' and 2)'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Matthew 22:34-40. These are in fact quotes from Deuteronomy 6:4 and Leviticus 19:18. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament says "These comprehend the substance of what Moses in the law, and what the prophets have spoken. What they have said has been to endeavour to win men to the love of God and each other. Love to God and man comprehends the whole [of] religion; and to produce this has been the design of Moses, the prophets, the Saviour, and the apostles." [Notes on the New Testament, Matthew chapter 22, verse 40] Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I do prefer the first part of your alternate wording, although I am in no position to judge whether so much detail is warranted for those particular sayings. But I would advise against using that last part with that site as a source. It would be much better if you could directly cite a scholarly source interpreting this, since we still have a denomination problem concerning sites like studylight.org, which makes their reliability dubious in a Wikipedia context (even if they are themselves citing a scholarly source). --Saddhiyama (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It says on the website that they are 'not apart of any one church group or denomination' http://www.studylight.org/info/statementoffaith.html Jainsworth16 (talk) 14:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

This is another website which also has Barnes Notes available. Seems more scholarly. http://www.ccel.org/about/mission.html Jainsworth16 (talk) 14:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Removing Jesus' Command on the Christianity page is the epitome of bad faith. Vandalism occured -WP:VAND-. As already mentioned, a good faith edit would have been a revision and not a reversion, especially one not claimed invalidly -WP:CON. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.216.51 (talk) 22:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

It was actually a good thing that it was removed. The whole section was just bad. It needs to be written well otherwise it will bring the quality of the whole article down. You should try to learn from others rather than getting offended and angry. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The proper course of action is to create a talk page post, without invalid reversion (vandalism), or to engage revision of the original edit -WP:CON-.

Yes, and this is where you have to agree the wording before putting it into the article. It doesn't seem like Saddhiyama wants to spend time correcting your edit. It's up to you to have it up to standard in order to avoid having it deleted. I have suggested alternate wording above, but I can't be sure its good enough. Thats why i've posted it here so others like you can comment on it and point out where to improve it, whether it is appropriate etc. I've read the article in primary sources, it says you can use a primary source to show what the text says, but you can't interprete it yourself, you need to quote a secondary source to do that. Also, what you're writting is not even biblical, the text doesn't say "love God like you love yourself" anywhere. Jainsworth16 (talk) 08:49, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

There is no policy stating that, Jainsworth, agreement does not have to be majority. "The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[1]" WP:NOR "...Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy — so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source.[1]" The edit does show proof of, "love God like you love yourself" in, "The Son of God commands." -1 John 13:34- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostprotocol888 (talk • contribs) 10:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I've put the words in the 10 commandments section. Jainsworth16 (talk) 10:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring

If edit warring starts up again, for whatever reason, please do not hesitate to raise at Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. Bible enthusiasts could benefit from seeking advice from the community at WikiProject Bible, before behaving in a way that may be interpreted as using Wikipedia for evangelizing. Please take careful note of Primary, secondary and tertiary sources (the Bible is most often considered a primary source) and Religion. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:08, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

These reversions were never a matter of "edit warring." Consensus had already been reached on the talk page under "Fundamental tenet missing from first paragraph." This is a matter of Vandalism; revert only when necessary; please determine gravity before posting invalid opposition. WP:ROWN WP:WAR WP:VAND Ghostprotocol888 (talk) 06:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems Ghostprotocol is right back to edit warring after the expiry of their block. Also citing a lot of policies at random doesn't exactly improve your case. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Ghostprotocol, I can't see a solid consensus above for the edits you have been edit warring over. Have a look at Dispute resolution and consider a process such as Requests for comment to make a proposal here and establish a credible consensus first. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

"Solid" is not a modifier of "consensus" using valid Wikipedia policy; there is obviously consensus for The New Commandment when it is in the actual article. WP:CON I agree with Ghostprotocol888. Vandalism occurred, not Edit Warring. "Revert only when necessary; please determine gravity before posting invalid opposition."Promontorylink (talk) 05:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

It's in the article because you put it in after. It was an edit war. I would like to discuss the changes you have made. The New Commandment in John 13:34-35 does not refer to the Shema but only the second one. Only the synoptic gospels put these two together. So it would be incorrect to use the words "New Commandment" to refer to quotes from the synoptic gospels which list both.Jainsworth16 (talk) 10:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Jainsworth16, first there is a colon to the John quote in the new commandment article. Second, Christ does not "generalised" that information; Christ is alive in the present, and in the past tense. You have to determine gravity, singularity, and tense; in Christianity, Jesus is God. When He says "I" He is speaking as God. You're interpretation is skewed with error. Why are you only wanting to use the synoptic Gospels? In the bible sources you cite, the information is listed under The Great Commandment, singular not plural. Pointing out a word you may have missed, "unto" in The New Commandment article. That word changes the meaning of "like." I have seen many different versions of the bible. In some of them, the word "equal" is used to relate the two principles instead of "like." Promontorylink (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Christ genralised in the first century, therefore we use past tense. I want to use the synoptic gospels for this sentence because they all group the two commandmends together 1 love God, 2 love neighbours, in the same story. John doesn't have this story, I think its slightly misleading to suggest all the gospels have this story. John 13:45-35 is also a good text but is a different story so I think its unnecesarry to use it here. Jainsworth16 (talk) 19:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The easiest way to determine the two principles being one commandment is that both of those principles were already commandments, in Jewish Law. So they are not new, but the combo of them both together was new.-Maybe check this for accuracy. Addressing your desire to use only synoptic gospels, the information you have presented is, according to the new commandment article, given two days prior to the new commandment before the last supper.Promontorylink (talk) 19:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree Jainsworth. It seems like excluding John's Gospel would be more misleading, one-sided, and incomplete. Before you undid my edit, both stories were represented via Promontorylink (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you in principle. But, quoting even one gospel would be enough to make the point being made. If you want to include the gospel of John, you would have to explain that it doesn't have the exact same wording as the other gospels as it leaves out the first commandment and focuses on the second. It is the same principle yes, but the sentence would get too messy and lose its thrust.Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Jainsworth here. There is an additional question regarding how reliable the language of existing versions of the Gospels are as sources, given the number of times that we know of that changes in the texts have been made, and other issues. All in all, I have to agree that going into detail would require substantially longer material, and that the coverage would get rather seriously messy. John Carter (talk) 00:11, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'll clarify it for you concisely. Don't you worry about it being messy.Promontorylink (talk) 00:56, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Achieving Neutrality

POV To raise issues with specific articles, see the NPOV noticeboard. Please do not override the consensus of the Christianity page by making reversions invalidly. "World" and "Science" are the location of the reliable third-party sources used in the citation for this section edit.Promontorylink (talk) 03:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to engage me here. FWIW I am not a new editor to this article, and I have been following the Talk page for some time.

"World" and "Science" are the location of the reliable third-party sources used in the citation for this section edit.

Science is not a literal location. Could you clarify what you mean by this? I do not believe your most recent edits belong on Wikipedia, but I would like to understand your position better.

Marie Paradox (talk) 04:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, reliable third-party sources are usually written however they are and the example given in WP is a newspaper article WP:THIRDPARTY. World and Science are categories of News. Their location is not "Opinion." So, the sources are located in the "World" and "Science" of News Categories. I do care as to why you don't believe my most recent edits belong on Wikipedia, but belief is a form of truth which does not adhere to WP:VERIFY. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I am still not sure I follow. The most recent edit you reverted had a citation (in accordance with WP:VERIFY), but you eliminated this in your edit anyway. Why?

Also, please note that you reverted the page three times within a 24-hour period. This is a violation of the Three Revert Rule except under exceptional circumstances, which are listed on the appropriate page. Does your revert qualify as an exception?

Marie Paradox (talk) 05:25, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

This is really simple to determine. If you view the article history page, you will see that I did not make a reversion. I undid your revision which was a reversion. Please do not submit paradoxical information to the Christianity page;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:35, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

According to the page, "Undoing other editors—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert" (emphasis mine).

Anyway, saying, "The Son of God commands," is reflective of a non-neutral point of view; it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Because the wording as it currently stands is rather obviously problematic and you have not engaged my points, I am reverting your edit. I was mistaken in what I said before: You have not yet violated 3RR, but you will do so, if you revert the page again. I hope that you will instead think about what you are doing and seek consensus with your fellow editors before making more edits.

Marie Paradox (talk) 05:46, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Oh right, I made a mistake, whoops. "The Son of God commands," is an in-text attribution form inline citation. As already mentioned, To raise issues with specific articles regarding POV, see the NPOV noticeboard. Consensus was made. You are the one edit warring by making invalid reversions. Even one invalid reversion is edit warring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Promontorylink (talk • contribs) 05:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Do you really want me to report you? Couldn't we do as the page you have linked to suggests and try to reach a mutually satisfying solution here?

As I have said, I have followed this Talk page for some time, and I have not seen anything resembling consensus for the edits you continue to make. (The only person who seemed to be in favor of it was Ghostprotocol888. Is that you?)

Marie Paradox (talk) 06:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Please learn the rules of Wikipedia before editing.Promontorylink (talk) 06:08, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

you don't detect some irony in that comment? Nasnema  Chat  06:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I did think it was Ghostprotocol888 too. Is there any way of checking? Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

The timing (Promontorylink made their first edit the day after Ghostprotocol was blocked) and edit pattern are very suspicious. I think an SPI might be worthwhile, off to file one now. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

SPI filed. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

He was a sockpuppet Jainsworth16 (talk) 15:28, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

STOP EDIT WARRING CHRISTIANITY PAGE

Response#1-"imo" is irrelevant. Your opinion is a form of truth and does not meet WP:VERIFY requirements. Sources must be cited. POV To raise issues with specific articles regarding POV, see the NPOV noticeboard. 5 WP:BLP Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. Contentious material about living persons (or recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. 7 Jainsworth16's sources are not third party; Albert Barnes (thoelogian) is a secondary source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Barnes_(theologian). WP:THIRDPARTY Every article on Wikipedia must be based upon verifiable statements from multiple third-party reliable sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. 9 WP:BLP The rule is that I'm supposed to revert your reversion. Custom dictates that, "in most cases, the first thing to try is an edit to the article, and sometimes making such an edit will resolve a dispute," not an invalid reversion. 11 WP:CON Please learn to read before editing on Wikipedia.Promontorylink (talk) 07:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

In my view Promontorylink (talk · contribs) is trying to mount a WP:SOAPBOX and should stop editing this page. Nasnema  Chat  07:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

First, "your view" is a form of truth and does not meet WP:VERIFY requirements. Second, "your view" is opinion, #2 in WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Please refer to Response#1, sent. 5-11. The information I add is properly sourced. There was a very minor error in Jainsworth16's edition. All I did was correct it. And now am dealing with a buncha edit warriors.Promontorylink (talk) 08:19, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Invoking WP:BLP on Jesus is extremely pointy. Such behaviour does seem to suggest that Promontorylink is not capable of maintaining a neutral viewpoint when editing this article. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Promontorylink, I don't want to be offensive but can't you see that your version conatins less information and is poory articulated. Don't you want to see this article improve? It seems like the only thing you want to do is quote John 13:34-35. Is that your only goal? Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:09, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

There is currently an Error, the Commandments Section, in the Article

According to all valid sourcing, Christ generalizes all of the law into one underlying principle.

According to the Gospels, Jesus requires you to love God completely and to love your neighbor as yourself. Generally, two of the Gospels have these principles separated and in the other two combined, but that doesn't matter because of their Logos, which is supported by reliable third-party sources:

"There are divine laws which govern and maintain us - the science of perfect God, perfect man."-1 If you are loving God completely, when you love your neighbor as yourself you are also loving God completely. You cannot love God completely and love your neighbor as yourself without relating your neighbor and yourself to God, because you are already completely loving God. And when you are loving God completely you are loving; so you are loving as yourself completely.

It is impossible, in Natural terms, to be doing something 100% to one thing, using 100% as 1, and simultaneously exist doing that same act to another thing, let's say for perfection 100% or 1, unless those two "things" are equal. So, in mathematical terms, if x=1 and y=1, y = x.

Equally, Jesus commands us to love God completely as to love your neighbor as yourself. Now, knowing that Jesus is a Neighbor-2 and understanding the logical connection of when you are loving God completely then you are loving so you are loving as yourself completely, you will know that Jesus is indirectly saying that He is God and to Love him completely as yourself.

Additionally, The Commandment that Jesus made is that He is God, without saying it because He is supposed to be called God the Son by others us humanity, simply God.

"Christ Jesus transformed the Mosaic law by understanding God as Love."-3 "And [the Lord] passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness”, Exodus 34:6" "This true light is the light of the Christ that Jesus exemplified, the spiritual illumination revealing God as all-powerful Love and each of us as the expression of this Love."-3

Jesus' Commandment is one New Commandment from God, singular. Please do not waste, yours and my time further.

1http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Exploring+healing+prayer/6424493/story.html 2http://atheism.about.com/od/bibledictionaryonline/p/NeighborBible.htm 3http://axcessnews.com/index.php/articles/show/id/22464 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.96.77.100 (talk) 23:28, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Why don't you have yourself unblocked first? Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:51, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Scripture

Jainsworth16, thank you for all the recent work you have done to keep "Christianity" a quality Wikipedia article. I welcome most of the changes you have made to the "Scripture" section. I just have two issues with them. First, I think it is problematic to say that the traditional Christian view is that the Scriptures "literally 'God-breathed'", as this is not the case unless Christians have traditionally believed that God expelled the Bible from his lungs. I understand that this was a good faith edit: I believe that what you meant was that the wording in 2 Timothy literally translates to "God-breathed". If you want to in some way work the phrase "God-breathed" back into the section, I will not be contentious about it, so long as the meaning is clear.

My other problem is that while it is certainly the view of (many) modern fundamentalist/evangelical Christians that God inspired the Scriptures but not word-for-word, I do not see what makes this a traditional view. It was not all that long ago that Christians believed that the Bible was given by word-for-word inspiration (and that the dialect of Greek it was written in was a Holy Ghost language, as opposed to being the common dialect of its time).

Marie Paradox (talk) 04:50, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments of appreciation Marie. Agree with you completely on the first point, I'll fix it. On the second point I think we need to discuss further what the appropriate wording should be. This is what the book I referenced says on the traditional view p21:

"The third view of inspiration held by historic Christianity, is that God worked through the personalities of the biblical writers in such a way that, without suspending their personal styles of expression or freedom, what they produced was literally "God-breathed" (2 Tim. 3:16; Greek: theopneustos). The emphasis of the 2 Timothy text is that scripture itself, not the writers only, was inspired ("All Scripture is inspired by God," NASB). If it were only the writers themselves who were inspired, then one might argue that their writings were contaminated by the interaction of the message with their own primitive and idiosyncratic conceptions. The teaching in 2 Timothy 3:16, however, is that God guided the scriptural authors in such a way that their writings bear the impress of divine "inspiration." Based on such verses as 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21, the traditional Christian view is that the Bible communicates objective, propositional truth. Unlike the neoorthodox position, which conceives Scripture as becoming the Word of God when it acquires personal existential significance, the traditional position is that Scripture is and always will remain truth, whether or not we read and appropriate it personally. Jainsworth16 (talk) 16:20, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the first point, the wording of your most recent edit looks great. As for the second point, if my memory serves correctly, this is, for certain values of traditional, wrong. However, you have given a citation, which is more than I have at the moment, so until I can come up with more I will rescind my objection. Thank you for once again working to improve the entry. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 20:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean to cite that reference as a knock down argument, but more to help discussion on an alternate wording. I'm not that desperate to use the word "traditional" to describe that view, if you feel strongly about it. I would be happy to use your words: "a view of many modern fundamentalist evangelical Christians is..." But, I do think it would be helpful if we give an indication of which view is dominant and maybe the word "traditional" would help convey that. Jainsworth16 (talk) 22:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate the spirit of compromise; the problem is that the citation does not support my wording. How would you feel about retaining the word "traditional" and omitting the phrase "without suspending their particular style or freedom"? I would have no disagreements with the text that would result. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 04:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I would be happy with that too. It also makes the sentence more direct and to the point. I will remove that now. Jainsworth16 (talk) 22:45, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Lede

A passage in the lede says: "The saving work of Christ on the cross is often referred to as the Gospel message, or good news."

1. The Gospel message is not that Jesus died on the cross, but that he was resurrected. The gospel is that the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jacob is the one true God of all, and that all people (ie. Gentiles), not just Jews, can know Him and receive his grace and salvation.
2. The "saving work" (of Christ) seems to need a link to salvation, but even this is bit crude, as this is a purely Christian definition. Whatever it links to, the "saving work" needs linkage and explanation.

-Stevertigo (t | c) 09:12, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that wording could be improved/expanded. On point 1: The gospel is, that the death, burial and reserection of Jesus means that all people who have faith in him have eternal life. No? On point 2: Maybe it should have a link, but I thought a "purely Christian definition" is exactly what we want here. Also there is a salvation section further down in the article so we should keep the details for the main article. Jainsworth16 (talk) 12:13, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Most Christian theologians would argue that the Gospel is much broader than just a "get out of hell free card."ReformedArsenal (talk) 12:33, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

So what can we change in that sentence to make it more informative but still keep it short? Jainsworth16 (talk) 13:25, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Well for starters, we can change "The saving work of Christ on the cross" because the cross is only part of the story. How about the saving work of Jesus' ministry? The Gospel itself is what Jesus actually preached, and the death and resurrection only validated the Gospel. -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Reminds me of William Lane Craig, I think he makes this point. I agree that the resurrection does validate the gospel. But I think the death does something more than just validate. "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Heb 9:22. "for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many." Matt 26:28 Jainsworth16 (talk) 08:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

That's fine. All I mean though was that when we say "The Gospel" we mean Jesus' mission - his ministry - which primarily means his message of God's love, which included all peoples, not just Jews as was before, but Gentiles. I agree we do regard the crucifixion with symbolism. But the crucifixion is not the whole Gospel. Regards,-Stevertigo (t | c) 23:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I think we're in agreement, we just need to find the correct wording. How can we summarise the gospel in a sentence or two? Jainsworth16 (talk) 00:58, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

FWIW various summaries of the gospel as given by N. T. Wright can be found here: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2008/09/04/gospel-definitions-nt-wright/. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 02:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Nice. (NT Wright, from the above link)

"First, with roots in Isaiah, it mean the news of YHWH’s long-awaited victory over evil and rescue of his people. Second, it was used in the Roman world of the accession, or birthday, of the emperor. Since for Jesus and Paul the announcement of God’s inbreaking kingdom was both the fulfillment of prophecy and a challenge to the world’s present rulers, ‘gospel’ became an important shorthand for both the message of Jesus himself, and the apostolic message about him. Paul saw this message as itself the vehicle of God’s saving power (Romans 1:16, 1 Thessalonians 2:13)."

Underline mine.

N.T. Wright also offers up a concise definition:

"I could try taking a Pauline angle. When Paul talks about “the gospel,” he means “the good news that the crucified and risen Jesus is the Messiah of Israel and therefore the Lord of the world.” Now, that’s about as brief as you can do it."

Though very concise, the problem with this is that it doesn't quite get to the Good News: that Jesus' kingship means faith, peace, and justice throughout the whole world. It wouldn't happen overnight, and its still not completely fulfilled, but thats the promise of the Gospel. -Stevertigo (t | c)

I tinkered with the lede a bit:

"Jesus' ministry and resurrection after death on the cross are often referred to as the Gospel message, or good news. In short, the Gospel means news of God's eternal victory over evil, and the promise of salvation and eternal life for all people in faith."

I think this works well. The only issue is the usage of "in faith" instead of the natural "of faith." If we say "of faith" that gets into sticky territory of 'who gets saved' etc. and I want to avoid that somehow. It may be that an explanatory footnote is warranted. I come from a universalist perspective, which tends to dislike talk of special conditions (such as proper theology) on salvation and eternal life. The universalist perspective is that there is plenty of room in Heaven, even for atheists. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 00:17, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

PS: Ive made a number of changes, and the passage now states:

"Jesus' ministry and resurrection after death on the cross are often referred to as the Gospel message, or good news. In short, the Gospel means news of God the Father's eternal victory over evil[5], and the promise of salvation and eternal life for all people through faith and divine grace."

I think this way properly expresses the Universalism aspect of Christianity, and by referencing both faith and grace, covers all bases. Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 05:02, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Good job sorting out the wording here. I was away for the bank holiday weekend so it was difficult for me to join in. Can I suggest some minor changes?

"Jesus' ministry, including his sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection are often referred to as the Gospel message, or good news. In short, the Gospel denotes God's victory over evil[5], and the promise of salvation and eternal life for all people by divine grace through faith." Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:21, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Good suggestions. Dont know about the word "denotes" though. I'll add your suggestions to the text. BTW, by adding "by divine grace through faith" would seem to suggest a kind of conditionalism on salvation (conditional on faith). Doing so would give undue weight to faith as a salvatory paradigm, which would be incorrect given the idea that God's grace and man's faith are sort of independent of each other (cf. Five solas) Regards, -Stevertigo (t | c) 07:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we should find a synonym for "denotes". Actually I wanted to quote Ephesians 2:8."For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith". I don't think it gives undue weight to faith. Without God's grace, faith in Him would be pointless. Without human faith, grace cannot be recieved. But, I don't think we should use too much Bible language. How about "by divine grace and human faith" Jainsworth16 (talk) 08:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

We should remove the phrase "after death on the cross" It's repeated and unnecessary. Instead of "means", can we use "In short, the Gospel IS news of God..." Jainsworth16 (talk) 09:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I am about to make your your proposed edit along with removing some italic emphasis to conform to the manual of style. I am also about to remove a phrase added in good faith (heh) -- namely, "faith and". While I understand that Soli Fide is an important part of many a Christian's worldview, we need to be careful about presenting it as normative Christianity, when the majority of Christians do not have it as part of their creeds and, more importantly, a significant number of qualified authorities would say that Paul never taught salvation by faith. (For example, a number of New Perspective scholars argue that the phrase traditionally translated "faith in Christ" should be rendered "faithfulness of Christ".)

I also question the inclusion of the phrase "for all people". While phrases like this do appear in the epistles, its use here obscures the fact that theologians have spilled a lot of ink over what they mean. However, I will wait for clarification before changing this. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 16:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Marie, the for all people is necessary. Christianity is a universal religion, as opposed to an ethnic religion. One of the Gospel's cornerstones is that Jesus came to save not just Jews but Gentiles as well. It is through Jesus that the God of Abraham becomes known to all peoples everywhere. The target audience for the Gospel is everyone. -Stevertigo (t | c) 21:51, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Jainsworth, I wrote it in a way which is theologically inclusive, rather than exclusive. You say "Without human faith, grace cannot be recieved" - which may in fact not be true - it may be that God's grace exists for people even when they have no "faith." So its written in a general way, to include both the faith of people and the grace of God. We can define later how these interrelate and so forth, but for the lede its important to touch upon the relevant concepts without too much detail. -Stevertigo (t | c) 21:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Marie, I actually think we do need to include "faith" in there, until today I was 100% sure this was the normative position after the reformation. Also, I agree with Stevertigo, we need to include all people. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:26, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Stevertigo, I agree with the meaning of your wording for "faith" and "grace" phrase, I just want the sentence to sound nice. Jainsworth16 (talk) 23:26, 10 May 2012 (UTC)