User talk:Jimbo Wales

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WMF involvement with Gibraltarpedia

Jimmy, Roger Bamkin has posted a partial timeline of his involvement in Gibraltarpedia. In it, he states "11th July - Gov. of Gib and WMF sign MOU. WMUK and me/John are not involved or consulted.(I was surprised by this)". Are you aware of the nature of that MOU (memorandum of understanding) or who negotiated it? I believe that WMUK have been negotiating an MOU with the government of Gibraltar for some months now - has anyone from the WMF seen it or been consulted? It seems like it would be useful to have a properly vetted MOU that can serve as a model for future projects (i.e., Tangerpedia, Chepstowpedia).

On 12 July 2012, WMF staffer Tilman Bayer posted an item on the WMF blog entitled "Volunteer’s efforts win Gibraltar the right to be the first Wikipedia ‘city’". The item was authored by "Steve Virgin, Wikimedia UK". Steve Virgin is a former Trustee of WMUK but did not get re-elected at the WMUK AGM some moths earlier. Whether or not the byline misleads people into thinking that Virgin represents the WMUK, it is clear that this byline gives the impression to readers that WMUK is involved in the project. In reality, this was a for-profit project between the Tourism Ministry of Gibraltar and two individuals who had been involved in Monmouthpedia, promoted by the "PR wizard" of Monmouthpedia. According to Roger Bamkin's "declarations of interest" related to Gibraltarpedia on the WMUK site, "Roger has a business relationship with John Cummings and Steve Virgin". "Knowing what we know now, do you think it was appropriate for this to have appeared on the WMF blog? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WMUK have not been negotiating an MOU with the Government of Gibraltar at any time, nor have we yet seen the text of the one WMF signed with them. (WMUK Trustee) Johnbod (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are references to an MOU between WMUK and Gibraltarpedia - I assumed that this meant the government of Gibraltar. Thanks for the correction, Johnbod. So who were you negotiating an MOU with regarding Gibraltarpedia? Has this MOU been completed? Is it available to the public or to WMUK members? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:46, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe we were talking about one between WMUK or Gibraltarpedia either; certainly not in recent months. It isn't enough of an entity to be a "legal person" I'd imagine. We have not negotiated about or signed any agreement with anybody about anything to do with Gibraltar, other than sending some standard how-to-edit leaflets. Johnbod (talk) 01:07, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am extremely puzzled by your response, Johnbod. I've just taken a look at the minutes of the 8 September 2012 WMUK board meeting (at which you were present). Roger Bamkin spoke to the board for 25 minutes on Gibraltarpedia "and explained how he would like to sign a Memorandum of Understanding with Wikimedia UK".

DECISION: There was support in principle to sign an MoU with Gibraltarpedia, so that we can provide non-financial support for the project via the office (such as provision of standard outreach leaflets) but it was noted that more work was needed on the draft MoU.
ACTION: 6.10 MP, DT, RB, SB to work through the outstanding issues with the Gibraltarpedia MoU.

Before the meeting, Roger Bamkin posted "I've created an updated copy of an MOU that Chris abnd I discussed. I'd like to get this approved in principle at the board meeting". Is the MOU that Roger refers to having posted available to the public or members of WMUK? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed they do say that. Sorry, I'll have to look into this & get back to you. I'd just say now that those timings are an advance hoped-for timetable, not a record, & I doubt Roger actually spoke on Gibraltarpedia for that long. Johnbod (talk) 15:57, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod, have you had a chance to look into this yet? Also, what is the status of the Monmouth MOU? Is there a version of this available to the public or to members of WMUK? i think it would be helpful to know what these agreements contain and who the parties are, if you hope to reduce speculation about these projects. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:57, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, is this Gibraltar - WMF MOU secret? As the project is having quite an impact here, can we discover what it says? I have made a proposal at WP:VPR#Pre-approval of collaborations that, for joint projects between Wikipedia and commercial organizations like the Gibraltar Ministry of Tourism, some sort of pre-authorisation is desirable before we get committed. Your view would be welcome. JohnCD (talk) 23:31, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I have not seen and had nothing to do with the negotiations of this MOU, I'm unable to comment on specifics. I can offer my own opinions on the general principles, and no one will be surprised by my views. I think chapter boards have a primary duty of loyalty to the charity, and that anything that even hints in any small way at a conflict of interest by a board member of a chapter should be dealt with in an extremely careful and proper way. I know that the WMF and WMUK are talking about the ramifications of this situation and expect and urge that all parties be extremely transparent about what happened here so that we, as a movement, can learn from it.

Paid advocacy is a scourge against which we must all be vigilant. For us in the editing community, one thing I think we should be examining very carefuly is how and why we had such an absurd number of Gibraltar-related DYKs. There's no editorial justification for it and so whatever process allowed it to happen is a broken process. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your comments could equally well apply to the question of how and why we had such an absurd number of University of Michigan basketball related DYKs. There almost certainly wasn't any money changing hands there (although I'm sure the team and brand itself involves very large amounts of money), but the number of DYKs involved is way, way higher than the Gibraltar ones. Ten times more? Even more than that?

How many of the articles about Gibraltar do you imagine were on subjects that were not notable? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DYK has long been subject to having a strong skew to particular subjects, it is a direct consequence of this being a crowd sourced project where people choose their topics. I'm tempted to suggest some sort of throttle on it such that very active DYK writers are limited to a set number of DYK nominations per month. FAC only allows FA writers to have one live nomination at a time. As DYK needs far more nominations perhaps we could say that any editor who has written half a dozen DYKs is subsequently limited to writing one "first pick" DYK every week, and similarly with second, third, fourth picks and so forth. Then the DYK team would aim to use all the "first picks" and top up with others as needed. Of course this wouldn't affect Gibraltar as I believe their DYKs were written by many people including newbies, but then the Gibraltar themed DYKs seemed a more diverse bunch to me than some of our previous trending topics at DYK. Ϣere SpielChequers 21:50, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out that it is a high priority for the WMF blog team to keep the Wikimedia blog open and inviting to the entire movement. (To this end, earlier this year we moved the bulk of the blog's scheduling and drafting process into the public, on Meta, to facilitate participation.) My colleague Matthew Roth and I routinely publish guest posts by chapters or other volunteers. If anyone reading this knows of projects or activities by Wikimedians which may be of interest to the blog's audience, and wants to contribute such a post, feel free to contact us!

While we try to ensure that these guest posts are in scope, and we support guest authors in copyediting and formatting issues etc. (such as the technicalities of including translations in the Gibraltarpedia post), we approach these guest posts with a general attitude of trust and do not demand to vet or endorse the described activities, or that the authors provide us with evidence for every statement to enable fact-checking. As usual with guest blog posts, the signing author is responsible for opinions and statements expressed in them. Regards, Tbayer (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A conversation with User:Corporate Minion regarding Paid advocacy is a scourge against which we must all be vigilant

Was this statement made this broadly intentionally?

"Paid advocacy is a scourge against which we must all be vigilant."

I am not asking to be snarky. I believe I have made substantive and positive contributions as a paid advocate, but am still gauging how welcome I actually am here. I am open to leaving if I am really that unwanted. Corporate 22:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't checked your contributions, but given your openness about what you do, I can't see that there would be a consensus objecting to your presence. By the way, are you aware of Wikipedia:COI_certification? JN466 00:24, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see my firm listed as a desired participant, but I previously decided to pass.

A look at my user page shows some works I have contributed to with a COI that I am proud of, but it is not within my authority to make a promise implied by COI+ to be neutral in every case and/or to exceptional standards.

In my opinion, it is our greatest misconception that we think PR COI only has to do with individuals who have the authority to put Wikipedia's objectives above their own, when in fact a PR person merely represents the corporate bureaucracy they support and has very little decision-making authority.

I would even go as far as saying that - in some cases - I will be in a position to provide content I know is bias on behalf of an organization who has ignored my consult. (most PR agencies - our advice is ignored all the time) However, if I follow the Bright Line, we will get feedback from an editor and improve it without doing any harm to Wikipedia and while providing good content that is valuable. Corporate 03:59, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No you won't. You can't. Not only that, but you can't even understand why you can't.

I get the "I am proud of [it]" part. Of course you are! Everyone wants to be proud of themselves! It's only natural, and healthy. That's why you can't understand that you can't "without doing any harm to Wikipedia... provid[e] good content that is valuable [to my client]."

I'm not proud of you, though. I'd like to be; I'd like to be proud of all my fellow-editors here at Wikipedia. But, you know, to some extent this has to be earned. I mean: "I will... provide content I know is bias[ed] on behalf of an organization...". I can't be proud of that, no.

And it's not just a matter of providing biased content. It's that your own mind is skewed by the position you are in.

I mean, I see that one of your clients is Honeywell Aerospace, for instance. I'm not interested in working on that article, but if I was, in the course of my research I'm sure statements like this would make my ears prick up: "Honeywell has long been regarded by many as a leading symbol of corporate immorality and irresponsibility... unwilling to take responsibility for clearing cluster bombs that remained in Vietnam after the war was over... attempted to open a testing range for weapons (including antitank shells with depleted uranium) on land in South Dakota sacred to the Sioux... bribery scandal involving two Navy officers..." yadda yadda yadda. (To be honest, without a lot more research I can't figure out the relationships between Honeywell Aerospace, Honeywell Defense Systems, Alliant TechSystems, AlliedSignal (of prolonged-dumping-of-Kepone-into-the-James-River fame), and various other players (by the time I finish this, they'll probably have spun off their KillTech division to merge with OmniCorrupt to form United DeathStar or something - it's hard to keep up), so maybe some of the above doesn't apply to Honeywell Aerospace specifically. But then again, who knows what else their busy busy fingers are into!)

I mean to me, as a Wikipedia editor my inclination is to ask questions like: is this true? Is it sourced? Is it important? Is it fair to point this out? What's the real deal here? And so on. But if I was a corrupt flack, my questions would be different! Right? Probably like: if I leave this out, will anybody notice? If it's already there, can I get away with removing it? If not, how can I best weasel-word it to take away the sting? Where can I get a blizzard of cites for my side of the story? How do I best deal with recalcitrant editor X... flattery? Push the NPOV-NPOV-NPOV-let's be fair-every-story-has-two-sides button over and over? Wear him down? Recruit him? Get some of my Wikibuddies on his case? Or what? And so on. (And of course you will! It's your job! Chicken dinners don't buy themselves, you know!)

See the difference? Different questions! Over here... Wikipedia editor. Over there... corrupt flack. Different!

(And if you're not asking questions like that, then you suck at your job, are betraying your clients, and need to be in a different business, you know.)

However... in your case, you've noted "...greatest misconception [is] that we think PR COI only has to do with individuals who have the authority to put Wikipedia's objectives above their own, when in fact a PR person merely represents the corporate bureaucracy they support and has very little decision-making authority." Assuming that by "individuals" and "a PR person" and so forth you mean "me" (which I think is a fair assumption) then you really are in a tough position. I don't know, maybe there's some sorrow behind that passage, or resentment, or uncertainty, or quiet desperation. Or maybe not; I shouldn't presume, I guess.

It's complicated. Life's complicated. Moral choices are hard! And I get that. I've done plenty of ~~Ministry of Peace~~ Defense Department work myself (they've got the money!) and I know how how to sell myself on that ("Better US than the REDS!") and so on.

But some things one doesn't do. Messing with the Wikipedia is one of them, in my book. So yeah I do it take kind of to heart, yes.

But I don't blame you, really. If it's not you it really will just be someone else. So I don't have the heart to answer your question "I am really that unwanted" in the affirmative. Better you than Greg Kohs I guess! It's not you, it's structural. Money will always find its level, you're just the conduit of that. If anyone's to blame it's Jimmy Wales (Hi Jimmy, sorry!) or whomever else is responsible for setting up the structure -- or non-structure -- such that there's really no mechanism available or even possible (I fear) to prevent you and you kind from despoiling the Wikipedia in this manner. I'm not even mad about it; I understand the utopian drive in people and honor it to some extent although these things don't usually end well. It's just sad, more than anything, really. A lot of work has gone into the Wikipedia and I'm fond of it.

I'm sorry about the crack about the chicken dinners. Maybe it's braces for the kids, or your mom's cancer meds, or just sufficient income to attract a suitable partner to make a family with, or something. Christ knows I haven't walked your path so I'm not fit to judge you, really.

But from the crooked timber of mankind no straight thing was ever made, Kant said, and I suppose he was probably right. Herostratus (talk) 07:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is not fair to portray me as financially motivated. This is a problem in corporate America - people should care about their work, not just their paycheck. We should be driven by a sense of mission, passion and interest in what we do, not a greedy and selfish need to have expensive things. Lets keep in mind I turn down better-paying traditional PR work to do this, and that much of my paycheck is squared away for charity anyway.

Even my permission-based approach is not perfect. There is no aspect of Wikipedia that is not open to criticism and no editor (COI or not) that can achieve the impossible objective of neutrality, but we are all flawed as humans and thus so is Wikipedia. Nobody is without bias or motive, but we still create imperfect content that is beneficial to the reader.

However, I would have closed my doors long ago, if it weren't for the Bright Line. As someone working on behalf of an organization, I cannot put myself in the position of being their gatekeeper to Wikipedia. Where Wikipedia often blames individuals, I only see someone who folded to tremendous corporate pressures to get results. Where we see individuals who are spammers, I see ROI calculation that shows spamming Wikipedia and letting other editors clean it up is effective.

We have everything backwards. We make targets out of COIs that disclose and use them as punching bags, then allow droves of non-disclosed spammers, censors and spin doctors run free while we clean up their mess. Companies that could offer tremendous value by getting involved in Wikipedia and/or have extremely bias pages are fearful of the repercussions. They feel it is better to leave their Wikipedia page clearly bias and factually inaccurate than expose themselves to criticism for getting involved. Meanwhile, I have seen astroturfing sockpuppets welcomed with open arms.

It feels like Wikipedia prefers astroturfing and if that preference is indeed true, than I have no role here. I would prefer we change things to make corporate participation that is helpful more attractive, while making disruptive editing less appealing. Corporate 13:45, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You say "It is not fair to portray me as financially motivated"... this is confusing. You are listed as a COI editor. Are you not receiving financial compensation from your clients? Did you not receive any compensation from (say) Honeywell Aerospace? If not, then why is that article (and others) listed on your userpage as those to which you have "contributed heavily with a conflict of interest". If it's not financial, what is your COI with regards to these various companies??? Is it that you are related to major stockholders? Have they promised to say novenas for you? Find mates for your siblings? Or what?

I sure as hell hope the deal is not "yeah, they pay me, but it doesn't affect my editing". First of all, if you believe that, you are mistaken. You're probably not even lying, and I'm not accusing you lying (although you might be, and I hope that you are). I'm accusing you of deceiving yourself, which is much much worse. It's worse for you for obvious reasons -- that's no way to live -- but it's worse for us because we can't even have a conversation with you. It's like talking to someone who is not even wrong, except as regards ethics rather than science. All we can do is talk past each other.

If you're independently wealthy or reject material possessions and have taken a vow of poverty], only engage in paid corporate PR for amusement, and pass all your earnings on to charity, that'd be interesting. I'm willing to concede that certain exceptions might be made for paid reputation-management editors who pass 100% of their net earnings to charity. If this describes you, please let us know soonest.

However, I don't think that's it. If I recall earlier conversations correctly, your deal is supposedly something along the lines of "yeah I get paid and need the dough, but entirely independently of this I also believe that my clients, by happy coincidence, are wonderful and benign entities. And my mad skills are so awesomely in demand that I can turn down clients by the score, and do if I don't believe in their mission". That's a fair summary, is it not?

If that's the deal, then... well, let me present a couple of made-up quotes:

"Yes I took a suitcase of unmarked bills from MegaCorp and by coincidence I voted in Congress to free them from taxes forever, but I actually believe this is good public policy and would have done this anyway, so what's the problem?
Yes the plaintiff gave me $100,000 and by coincidence I ruled in his favor, but I actually believe he had a winning case and would have ruled in his favor anyway, so what's the problem?

If you see why those quotes indicate a possibly problematical situation, we can possibly talk fruitfully. I'm not really set up to run an entire Ethics 101 course here, but maybe something useful could happen. If you're scratching your head and going "so what is the problem?" then we probably don't have a lot of useful things to say to each other, is all.

Finally, if you deal is "yeah I get paid, but my most important goal is developing a balanced article -- and not just for tactical reasons, but because the Wikipedia comes first and if that devolves to less than my client's maximum benefit, well so be it."

Well, first of all, that's just loathsome -- flat-out crooked. Hey, I might need a PR man someday. If I'm paying him to get my picture in the Times, I don't want him to be thinking "well, Herostratus's picture doesn't really belong in the Times and its presence would degrade that newspaper, so I'll just take his money and pretend to try to get his picture in the paper, or deliberately do a half-assed job". That's a complete violation of the ethics of your profession (or hobby, or whatever it is for you.) So if that's your deal, why would we want to have anything do with you? We don't want editors with bad character, that seldom ends well.

Second of all, even that's predicated on your being in the elite I-have-so-much-work-I-can-freely-piss-off-clients league. Even if that's the case (color me skeptical, but whatever) most of your brethren aren't so happily situated, so your case has limited bearing on the general matter.

As for your other arguments, yeah we've heard all that. If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns and yadda yadda yadda. Maybe you're right. Who knows? I don't think you're right and I'm not ready to out and-out overtly and formally surrender the Wikipedia to commercial interests.

I dunno, man. What do you want? There's nobody here, and no power here, that can make you go away. There's little governance, and it's a wiki, and anyone can write whatever they want for whatever reason they want (there are a few exceptions, but paid reputation-management editing isn't one of them). Do you want everyone to approve of you? Is that it? Well plenty of people approve of you! I don't, but so what? You're never going to please everyone in this life, right? Just please whatever God you hold dear and do what you think best.

You write "It feels like Wikipedia prefers astroturfing and if that preference is indeed true, than I have no role here". Please, stop. Come on. It doesn't feel that way to me -- have you not seen the many many scores of comments on various fora accepting, and often valorizing, paid reputation-management here? For my part I am not going to approve of you, no. Sorry to be harsh but we are encyclopediast here and not middle school girls. I mean for most of us, we go to work to get paid, and that's plenty, and we don't expect a friggen medal too for processing our stack of claims forms or selling our quota of tires or whatever the hell we do. If the pay alone is not enough for you, I'm not sure what I can tell you. Herostratus (talk) 05:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hero, you are unnecessarily confrontational. Why would you say that we are unable to have a discussion? Have I done something to make you think I am so unreasonable? Even as you say you disapprove of astroturfing, you prove that by participating in the discussion openly and honestly, I expose myself to excessive criticism and become a punching bag for editors that just don't like it. No matter how compelling you make the argument for operating discreetly, I will volunteer to be your punching bag instead.

I thought Jimbo had previously said paid advocates can be a good thing for Wikipedia if we do it right, however if he meant the more sweeping statement above, that is a compelling argument to retire, if any paid advocate operating in the open is a time-bomb waiting for a reputation-damaging event. There may not be a paid editing policy, but he has enough influence over the media to unilaterally humiliate editors who operate in a manner he disapproves. Corporate 23:33, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the amount of discussion of GibraltarpediA on this talk page, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:GLAM/GibraltarpediA may be of interest. Fram (talk) 09:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've written an essay on the issue of Gibraltarpedia's supposed ability to produce commercial benefits for Gibraltar; see User:Prioryman/Gibraltarpedia, monetisation and myths. Prioryman (talk) 22:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Corporate minion. If a company knows that a page on them is factually inaccurate then there are legitimate ways to fix that. First do a talkpage request "x is wrong/outdated here is a reliable source reporting y", if no-one looks at the page in a reasonable time then escalate to OTRS. As for you, of course you are welcome here, just please do what I try to do and avoid editing topics where you have a COI or doubt you can write neutrally. Ϣere SpielChequers 12:21, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, Jimbo? Come on

You should know our rules better than anyone, at least in a broad sense. And you should certainly know how original research works. Can you please explain what this and this are? I don't care if you heard it directly from the horse's mouth, which you apparently did, it's OR regardless. Seriously, if you were anyone else, this probably would have been at ANI already. Silverseren^C 20:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are wrong about the rules of Wikipedia. Everyone who thinks it is better to have an error in Wikipedia rather than correct information is always wrong at all times. There is nothing more important than getting it right. I'm glad that we're finally rid of the "verifiability, not truth" nonsense - but it's going to take a while before people really fully grasp what that means.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I know that life will end on 21 December 2012. Articles claiming that this is a fringe tehory are "wrong" and hding this is an error? We should get it right! After all, even though it may be verifiable that mainstream sources don't believe this, it is the truth that it will happen. Will you please change all relevant articles? What you are claiming here is the justification for every POV warrior, fringe advocate, and PR company. Everyone claims to present the truth. We don't accept that at face value, not from you, not from me, not from anyone else. Fram (talk) 12:04, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a very compelling argument. We can and must use thoughtful editorial judgment. A random bonkers claim like "life will end on 21 December 2012" is something that thoughtful and trustworthy editors will consider and dismiss as... well, random and bonkers. If you have a serious reason for thinking that I am lying (or randomly bonkers in some way, or... what?) or that she is lying (or randomly bonkers in some way, or... what?) then let's have a thoughtful discussion. Perhaps there is a very standard and widely accepted method for transliteration from Arabic to English, and her preferred version violates the rules in some obvious way, and is therefore unlikely to become standard. (That's false, by the way, but it is at least the sort of objection that we might thoughtfully consider.) But simply chanting the long-discredited mantra that we must continue in error when we know something to be wrong, due to some rules of Wikipedia, is wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But you were not defending this instance, you were making very categorical and broad statements. Any reason why your broad statements suddenly only apply to your actions, but not to other situations? Fram (talk) 12:12, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by the categorical and broad statements. I don't really know what you are asking me, exactly, but I wrote more at the talk page of the Will.i.am article and perhaps that will be helpful? I think that we absolutely do (must, really) have a thoughtful community of trusted editors who make editorial judgment calls up to and including in some cases acknowledging that reliable sources have something wrong. That's not an invitation to crackpots or cranks. We are not transcription monkeys, merely writing down what the sources say - we are editors. We use our editorial judgment all the time, and when we get to an interesting edge case, we discuss the details. Let's pick a different widely respected editor, because it's not about me. There are many editors who might be contacted by the subject of an article with a correction, and there are better and worse ways of dealing with it. One of the bad ways of dealing with it would be to say "I don't care how you spell your name unless you blog about it." Or "I don't care if it hurts your mother's feeling, a random blog says that's your name." A good way of dealing with it is to adjust the article and have a thoughtful discussion to see if there are any reasonable objections. So far, for both of these changes, there have been none.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is one now at Talk:will.i.am. Fram (talk) 13:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and please don't claim that I am inserting "falsehoods into biographies.", that is a personal attack and a WP:BLP violation.[1] I am reporting what reliable sources state, you are replacing it with unverifiable comments. That the name in the sources is a "falsehood" is your belief, not an established fact. Something that is disputed or in doubt is not necessarily a falsehood. Please be more considerate in your edit summaries. Fram (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's a falsehood. Please do not insert it again. There is nothing inconsiderate about my saying so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not the first time that your opinion trumps policies or even basic civility. Fram (talk) 13:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What if you had misunderstood the conversation or made a mistake? Then you are overriding what the sources say with something other wikipedians can't check, we have to take it on faith that it is true and that you have not made a mistake. Why not perhaps change it on the spot and then ask him to send a quick email to X ask some form of validation for a permanent record? Say it is required to make sure the change sticks. It gives everyone else piece of mind, and ensures that no mistakes were made; it also gives the individuals who notice mistakes a way to correct them in the future when you aren't around. Something like the spelling of a name should be fine from a primary source from the individual. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:45, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We are indeed, and we do indeed. Contradictory sources are a fact of life, especially for older subjects, obviously we weigh a number of issues and decide which reliable source to go with. If I'm questioned, I'm happy to explain my reasoning. That being said, it's best to have a reliable source available to the public to point to, and those of us who do not rub elbows with the elite cannot count on having CNBC write up what someone told us and we're just repeating.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an invitation to cranks and crackpots, but that is the way it will be perceived by cranks and crackpots. They may even quote you, saying original research is fine if they know it to be true; they saw a flying anti-gravity machine, or homoeopathy worked, or they saw reptoids in charge of the government. Undermining WP:V gives these POV pushers a greater ability to push unverifiable nonsense they believe to be true into articles. Ideally, in most articles, people will not add information they know to be false. If people add information they know to be false but the source says it, then they are an idiot. The problem is with being sure it is the exceptional case. If people who are the subject of articles have corrections, they should have a process to submit it in some way so that there is a verifiable albeit primary source which can be used (something like this may exist already through OTRS or similar). If I met a notable physicist and changed his article according to what he told me, I would expect it to be reverted even though it's true, because no one else has any way of knowing whether I actually met the individual or whether I misheard, or he misspoke or a bit of both (related Eyewitness identification). IRWolfie- (talk) 14:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you're joking, Silver. This is the Roth question all over again. Yopienso (talk) 21:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and, as with the Roth question, we need something to reference. Referencing that "this person told me so" is not a reliable source. Have the person put the information on their personal website or something, then we have a source we can reference. Silverseren^C 21:38, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, Silver? Come on. Before posting on Jimbo's page, you should have run a simple Google search of "Tawakkol Karman." Yopienso (talk) 21:57, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These edits by Jimbo seem reasonable to me. If we have a policy that a living person isn't a reliable source as to the spelling of his or her own name, then either that policy needs to be changed, or that policy needs to be overridden by WP:IAR in situations like these. To take a contrary position, by interpreting a policy such as WP:OR in an extreme fashion, is the sort of thing that leads outsiders to think that sometimes Wikipedia is ridiculous.

To be sure, the living person's word might not be an irrebuttable source as to the spelling of her or her name. If someone marshaled evidence that the vast majority of the written sources use a different spelling, we would certainly need to discuss the situation. Howver, I don't see that either you or anyone else has located any such evidence.

I don't agree that if any other editor than Jimbo were involved, this matter would be at ANI. I think that if any other editor than Jimmy were involved, either this issue would be discussed calmly on the relevant talkpages, or no one would bring it up at all. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The issue isn't that the living person isn't a reliable source, of course they're a reliable source, however, per WP:V, we need something to physically reference, so the living person needs to make the information available in some form or fashion on the internet or in a printed, published work that we can then reference. "He said, she said" information is not a reference and never will be a reference, no matter how reliable the "he" and "she" are. Silverseren^C 21:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I initially wrote the same thing as Brad, but in much less polite terms. My original comment was lost in a slew of edit conflicts, which is fortunate; that's one less diff that will show up in the eventual ArbCom case against me. :P So I'll just say: SilverSeren, it would probably be worthwhile to rethink your approach to minor content disputes. There are actually other options besides a) go to AN/I or b) condescendingly dress down an experienced editor. For example, secret option c) entails using the article talkpage... MastCell ^Talk 21:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, you go to someone's talk page to discuss something like this. And I wasn't meaning to be condescending, just extremely disappointed, because Jimbo should know better. Silverseren^C 21:53, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)News report less than 3 hours ago. Yopienso (talk) 21:44, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) ~~Silver seren, you are degenerating into self-parody.~~ Silver seren, while your point might have merit in other contexts, I think it would be taking things too far to implement it in this instance. Imagine yourself, or any other good-faith editor, in Jimbo's position. "You know, Jimmy, the title of the Wikipedia article about me spells my name wrong." "I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to take your word for it." "What the ... ? " Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The proper response to such a question would be, "Alright, all you have to do is explain the proper version of your name on your website or blog and let me know, then I can go ahead and change it." And, presumably, both of the people had internet access right then too (because who doesn't these days?) and could have added the info to their website or blog and then Jimbo could have changed it right then as well, referencing that website or blog. Silverseren^C 21:51, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, if I'm told some information directly by an article subject, my posting of it should be accepted...I think not. Are there any other editors whose testimony about directly obtained information from the subject constitutes WP:RS, or is it reserved only for Jimbo? If there are others, who are they and how did they get that status? DeCausa (talk) 21:58, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Silverseren^C 22:02, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We're talking about the person's name, not some denial of a controversial incident. See also further discussion on the article talkpage. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:09, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the significance. It's a very simple point. Is Jimbo the only editor whose word on what a subject says is a reliable source, or are there others in your view? DeCausa (talk) 22:13, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're on national TV with the subject at the time, DeCausa, we'll give you a pass. I think any editor who reveals their real name and is known as a reliable source would also be considered one. You and SilverSeren and Resolute are providing examples of the descent of Wikipedia into nonsense. Yopienso (talk) 22:18, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then show me where Jimbo used this national TV show as a reference for the change. Otherwise, it is a direct failure of WP:V. Silverseren^C 22:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, there has to be some common sense and common respect here or we have lost our humanity and become wiki-lawyering cyberbots. Do you have to see them on TV to believe Jimbo when he says, "I met her at Clinton Global Initiative in New York. I have moved the article to her preferred spelling"? You want policy to trump common sense. If we follow that to its end, WP will relegate itself to a prim and lonely little corner in Absurdland.

But, wait! We do have a policy for that--it's called the Fifth Pillar:

Wikipedia does not have firm rules.

Rules in Wikipedia are not carved in stone, as their wording and interpretation are likely to change over time. The principles and spirit of Wikipedia's rules matter more than their literal wording, and sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making an exception to a rule. Be bold (but not reckless) in updating articles and do not worry about making mistakes. Prior versions of pages are saved, so any mistakes can be corrected.

Jimbo got it exactly right. Yopienso (talk) 22:40, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo himself has talked about multiple times before how we shouldn't be making changes before sources write about them, that we are supposed to reflect the news as it is reported and not make the news ourselves, that there is no problem in waiting for a news source to actually be published before making a change, because there is no deadline. Things don't need to be immediate. Silverseren^C 22:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could something like this not be done through OTRS then? The subject themselves may be a RS, but the editor is not, so I'm going to have to agree with SilverSeren here. There isn't another editor on this project who could get away with "because I was told different" to justify such a change. Reso lute 22:03, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're on national TV with the subject at the time, SilverSeren, we'll give you a pass.

Please see my post above of 21:57 that I should have put at the bottom. Too many edits since then to move it now. Yopienso (talk) 22:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The news article Yopienso linked up above is actually pretty hilarious and also sad. The author, John Carney, clearly gets how Wikipedia works and what our rules are and thank goodness someone in the press has finally figured that out. And he discusses our rules on sourcing and everything and states that Jimbo should probably have his two changes reverted, but then also acknowledges, in self sarcasm, that by writing this article, he's providing a secondary source to use for the changes, even though, in my opinion, he doesn't sound like he wants to. Silverseren^C 22:42, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

JW, you WP:JERK! WP:POINT! Chrisrus (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of Will.i.am, I do not see where the article (pre-Jimbo's edit) had a source for the "Jr." in the man's birth name, so what Jimbo did was basically to remove an unsourced fact in a BLP. Generally that is viewed as a good thing. The fact that he did it because Will.i.am told him that was the case does not turn a good thing into a bad thing. If Will.i.am had told Jimbo that at the age of five he wrote seven novels, and Jimbo put that in the article, we would be having a different discussion. For a much closer call, if the article originally did not have the "Jr." and Jimbo put it in because that is what Will.i.am told him, without finding a written source... well, I'm not sure. That might not be so good. But that's not what happened. As for Tawakkol Karman, in skimming quickly through the refs, I spotted at least two sources for that spelling (including the New York Times), and other sources for several other spellings. I actually did not see a source for Tawakel, which is where the article had been, but assuming there was such a source, what Jimbo did was replace one sourced fact with another, conflicting, sourced fact (from a high-quality source, the New York Times), and he did so because the subject told him which one of the sourced facts was correct. That seems okay too. Neutron (talk) 23:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And the removal of Will.I.am's middle name from the article? A middle name which, if you do a search, is used in a ton of news articles? Silverseren^C 23:11, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 1

Need essays to explain WP:IAR and common sense: This is a good example of the need to write essays that explain wp:IAR and how an expert (or the person) can alert someone to a fact, and then the sources can be quickly be re-analyzed to see that the fact fits within the overall article. She said the preferred spelling of her name is "Tawakkol Karman" which Google gives 378,000 hits, versus "Tawakel Karman" which Google gives just 90,000 hits, so then look within the wp:RS reliable sources to confirm the major usage. There is also the matter of wp:Civility when speaking with a notable person, and trying to quibble over something like the spelling of their name, and so that prompts the use of editorial judgment, as to whether to debate such a trivial issue. Of course, these cases must be balanced to beware someone punking Wikipedia, but such events would be very rare. We had related problems with "Hurricane Katrina" where people not from the eastern area kept rejecting the notion that waves were 20–30 feet (6.1–9.1 m) high in Mississippi or Alabama, because the French Quarter, Garden District, and downtown New Orleans did not even flood, and few people in their lives have seen continual waves at the shore over 20 feet (6.1 m) high, pushing 5–9 miles (8.0–14.5 km) inland. It seemed impossible. Meanwhile, all the media hype was imagining "Katrina came to New Orleans and parked", whereas the reality was that Hurricane Katrina travelled up the entire U.S. state of Mississippi, flooding coastal areas through 3-storey levels, but never going closer to New Orleans. It took a long time before some people would even believe the documented sources, because they considered everyone else wrong, even though that disregarded common sense. They did not really understand what a major hurricane does, and that downtown New Orleans was not in the heart of the hurricane zone, unlike with Hurricane Isaac or others. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:16, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We've been commenting on the Tawakkol Karman talk page, which is normally where these discussions are carried out. In the article, the most used transliterations of her name have been cited at the very beginning of the article for some time now, including the one now used (see the anglicized as section). It should be noted that the article was created before she had won the Nobel Peace Price and at a time when writers used different forms of her name transliterated to a greater extent than they do now. A year after the award, it much easier to see that this is in fact the common name found in most sources. Furthermore, she has been using this version in her signed editorials, which also appears in a list at the bottom of the article. It only a matter of when her spelling was changed. Crtew (talk) 00:30, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See, you guys keep focusing on the Karman edit while ignoring the Will.i.am edit. Is that because Karman is an easier explanation, while there is little to no explanation for the Will.i.am one? It's quite interesting to watch. I mean I would think sources like this would be fairly decisive:

"the 37-year-old -- real name William James Adams -- told a student audience." - News.com.au

"At the JPL event, the artist, born William James Adams Jr., also announced..." - Billboard

"When it comes to making hit records, few are as consistent as William James Adams Jr., or Will.I.Am." - NPR

"William James Adams Jr., better known as Will.i.am of the popular music group Black Eyed Peas, was named Intel's new director of creative innovation" - PC World

How exactly do you explain this one away? Silverseren^C 00:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's the same Roth/Karman question: the actual subject of a BLP told a real live WP editor who is known by his real name to him and to us that there was a minor error in the BLP. It would be rude (and silly) of Jimbo to say, "Sorry, you'll have to have your birth certificate published and then I might change it." His edit summary was:

Revision as of 16:14, 24 September 2012 (edit) (undo)

Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs)

(He told me just now that this is his name - not "Jr" and no middle name. Will explain further on talk when I get time in a few hours.)

The Fifth Pillar is the basis for this leeway. Now please give Jimbo a chance to explain when he has a minute. Yopienso (talk) 00:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except, unlike the Roth situation that was about a book character, it seems quite unlikely that Will.i.am doesn't have a middle name. And since his father is named William Adams Sr, the Jr. would make sense in his name. It might be the sort of situation where he doesn't want that to be associated with his name, but unfortunately, like the Toure situation, that's not how a biography works. We have to mention it at least once in the article. Silverseren^C 01:06, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The best thing to do is to comply with the request of the subject of the BLP. If later investigation turns up conclusive evidence that the subject was wrong or suppressing the truth, the article can be fixed. (The beauty of wiki! No?) Meanwhile, no substantial harm has been done, and a courtesy has been extended to the subject.

You don't say what your basis is for thinking "it seems quite unlikely that Will.i.am doesn't have a middle name." My husband doesn't, even though every one of his five brothers and five sisters do.

You don't say how you know will.i.am's father's full name. The article says the two never met. My father was a junior, but since his father died when Dad was a toddler, he never used the Jr. Official documents do not include it.

Or maybe you just know a whole lot about will.i.am's personal life. I don't. Yopienso (talk) 01:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And that's why, at the very least, we should have a published statement by Will.i.am in order to make the change, at minimum. At this point, the change wasn't made based on anything other than what one heard. Silverseren^C 02:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IGNOREALLRULES: Use common sense to improve the encyclopedia. Accuracy trumps a mindless doctrinaire approach. Carrite (talk) 01:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy is a very imprecise term. We've had to deal with a lot of different situations where, if we just believed what the subject said, we would be actually making the articles inaccurate. Blind rote faith in BLP subjects is not the way to go. Silverseren^C 02:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, accuracy is a very precise term, as is precision. Anyway, I'd like to point out that this is absurd. You are essentially demanding that 1.) a public figure put out a press release to satisfy Wikipedia's content policies so that we may fix something that is not true, and 2.) we demand this in all cases, including their name. Anyway, the people have spoken, and they are very gently trying to tell you that you're completely and totally wrong. You can continue to argue the point, but why? Even if you're not willing to bow to the collective wisdom of others, how about just picking your battles?--Tznkai (talk) 02:48, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Accuracy is imprecise in this context. And I am not asking them to put out a press release, all they have to do is make a statement on their website, their blog, their facebook, or their twitter. Anywhere where we can actually cite them and provide a link as a reference, per the policy requirements of WP:V. And there are several people in this discussion that agree with me, that Wikipedia needs to have proper referencing, because without it, everything is just original research. Silverseren^C 02:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see no difference in principle between what Jimbo did, and say some kid adding what he heard the drummer from his favorite band say about his middle name in conversation at a meet n greet. Now, there is, perhaps, a difference between an emo kid and Jimbo, but that means that we are allowing matter to remain based on the credibility of the contributor, and I find that rather dicey.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think its dicey. Do you think he might be lying? If you don't, what's the problem? He's the founder, can we cut him a little slack? (Also, don't know about the middle name, but FWIW "Junior" is not part of a name but just used to differentiate people, in the same way that "II" is not actually part of Queen Elizabeth's name. Often people drop the "Jr." when their father dies (since differentiation is no longer needed) or for any other reason. So as far as that part goes, personal preference would tend to rule, unless his father also is famous and/or has an article and the Wikipedia needs some method of differentiation.). Herostratus (talk) 03:44, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except that who the editor is is irrelevant. Are you going to accuse other editors of lying if they made such a change? The point is that the same standards have to be held for everyone and, no, he gets no less slack than anyone else. Furthermore, what about the middle name? Silverseren^C 03:50, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think Jimbo would lie about such a thing. My point is that we don't want to rely on editor credibility because that is not transparent to the reader.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:58, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, Jimbo doesn't have to lie. He could always just be wrong or the other person could be lying for some reason. You know, like, maybe will.i.am doesn't like being called Junior or something so he bullshits about how it isn't part of his legal name when it is part of his legal name. We really shouldn't ever accept an "I heard it from the man himself, therefore it is the truth" argument no matter who makes it or why. Ignore all rules doesn't mean we should just let random anecdotes from a brief conversation, to which we are not privy, determine content. What if some famous person wants to punk Wikipedia and tells Jimbo about some "error" in his or her bio that is actually not an error at all, just to see if he or she can get Jimbo to change it to something false?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this line of thought works very well. I have spoken to literally hundreds of reporters and I don't recall even one ever asking to see my legal documents to confirm my middle name. You can tell them anything about little details like that, and they just write it down. It makes little sense that he would just randomly pick yesterday to lie to me about it. Of course, maybe he wants to "punk" Wikipedia. Maybe lots of implausible things, like maybe he's secretly Silver seren and has been editing Wikipedia for a long time, just waiting to spring this on me. But I think we can all agree that this is all highly unlikely. His story made sense, it is consistent with his biography, and he's not know for being someone who "punks" others. He expressed genuine admiration for Wikipedia and called himself a "geek" when I met him. He was excited to learn about Wikimania and today someone from his staff emailed me to inquire about when it will be held. (I doubt if he can come to Hong Kong, but if he does, I'll try to get him to give a speech about his middle name!) The evidence points strongly enough to suit me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"can we cut him a little slack?" Better question: should we? Why should there be different rules for God and for mere mortal editors? Reso lute 05:35, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are many editors whom I would personally trust in a similar situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may, that is your prerogative, but there is no reason for anyone else to, without being able to verify, who they are and what they know and do. So, if the Wiki wants to turn some editors into reporters fine, but that means they are known to the public, and the public can decide whether to trust them. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:15, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is now a moot point; WP actually worked as designed this time!

Wrt Karman, an editor (in this case, Jimbo) ignored all rules, was courteous, and boldly made a change. Verification by multiple RSs are now in hand. Jimbo's correction stands.

Wrt will.i.am, Jimbo did the same. We do not at present have sourcing for the change, and--Abracadabra Wikipedia Sesame!--the "correction" has been reverted, awaiting decisive documentation. Yopienso (talk) 03:45, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia worked, yes, I never had any doubts that it would. But the point of this section discussion is that the Will.i.am change was highly improper and it shouldn't happen again. Silverseren^C 03:50, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It could have waited a few hours for Jimbo to set a good example by getting a source (or having one manufactured) and source material.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:02, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I beg your pardon, Ms. Karman and Mr. Williams. Please wait a few hours while we manufacture a source for your claims that you know your own names." Yopienso (talk) 04:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I beg your pardon, Ms. Karman and Mr. Williams, could you make a tweet or a facebook post that I can use as a reference for the change?" It's not like we're asking people to move the Earth here. Silverseren^C 04:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If they objected, he could have blamed it on us little people, who toil and spin while Jimbo hobnobs with Madeline Albright.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See also Ipse dixit.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 05:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason why a [note 1] cannot be added to the will.i.am article referencing the source(s) and the Jimbo talk page comment explaining the discrepancy. This is the service wiki readers' need: 'this is what this source writes and this is what that source says.' In that way, it's at least clear, whose word we have taken, and why, and from what source. Without a note, the reader is left with 'but I read somewhere that his name is ____ this says ____, what do they base that on?' Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That can be done, but I would suggest, that as there is an ongoing conversation at the article talk, to discuss that there.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is basically what I suggested here at the end of my comment: "Perhaps the article can be somewhat rewritten to incorporate his claims/complaint (genre "X is his name in reliable sources (cite 1, cite 2), but will.i.am states that his name actually is Y (cite ?)")." Fram (talk) 14:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Be bold. The reader is better off with all the truth. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, don't be bold. The article is fully protected. Get consensus first, then the change can be made. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's think about this for a sec. Why would somebody need a verified source? Hmmm, very interesting. Here's the way I see it. Guy puts a fancy verified tag on a source 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside. Ya figure you put that little verified source under your pillow at night, the Verified Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right? The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. They know all they got ya to insert a verified piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it verified, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your reader's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about taking Jimbo's word for it. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Doris Speed: an actress who lied about her age for years, until her birth certificate was unearthed (see Age fabrication for more examples). Not claiming that something similar is happening here, but just that such things happen, and that believing a celebrity about some personal detail is not always the best course of action. He may be telling the truth, or he may be wantin to remove something he doesn't like from his article. We don't know, but blindly believing him is not the neutral position we are supposed to take. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fram (talk • contribs) 15:05, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Then go and get his birth certificate, and if it says something else, submit it to OTRS, or get the New York Times to publish it. Until then take his word for it, and that of dozens of sources agreeing with him. Otherwise you're just being insufferably rude, and for no good reason. What skin is it off your nose? What do you know about his family? Nothing. How is it your place to tell the man what his name is? To any normal person, it's sheer arrogance. JN466 16:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a valid edit for Jimbo Wales, but it does not disprove "verifiability, not truth". Reason --- we know User:Jimbo Wales is Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia. But if some "User:Will.i.am" shows up tomorrow, do we know who he is? Do we have any standard way to certify who he is? If I posted the edit to that same article that I was sitting with him, would you believe me? So the general rule is and remains that we should get the subject in such an instance to post to his web site and say what his name is to clarify things, and then we should cite that reliable source indirectly. The exception here is that Jimbo is a reliable source even though he's on a Wikipedia account. I would further add that if the edit is allowed to stand, then we should cite his diff as a formal reference - because otherwise, how does the next naive editor know that's not an unsourced error? Wnt (talk) 22:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo! Common sense arises from the dead. Exactly, Wnt. The Fifth Pillar ("Ignore all rules") allows for reasonable exceptions. Yopienso (talk) 22:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wnt is correct. It's a simple matter of sourcing, all we have to do is cite the source(s). It not even an IAR, all that need to be done is decide which source to follow based on weight, and explain the discrepancy in the sources. Is Jimmy Wales a reliable source for this information? If he is, he is cited. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:40, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You do not need to cite Jimbo at all. There are so many sources saying that Will.i.am was born "William Adams", far more than say he was born "William James Adams Jr." – even with Wikipedia's ability to propagate entirely false information worldwide. This sort of thing happens all the time: a subset of sources get something right, another subset gets it wrong. Sometimes the number of sources that are wrong is greater than those which get it right, because the poorly researched sources simply copied. JN466 14:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No. First, If there is a mistake in the sourcsing, it's often better to mention the mistake and correct it, especially in such a brief manner as this would take. Then it is set, until some better source comes along, and no one has to be confused about it or where the information came from. Second, as far as I can tell, no other source exists that says 'no this, this is wrong.' So, there are not other sources.Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I seriously don't have time to read the above, but in conversations with OTRS members, it has been made clear that they will fix factually incorrect non-controversial information if the identity of the subject should be confirmed. In this case, the identity of the subject was clearly confirmed to Jimbo and he fixed it. We really need a policy for how to not be assholes to the subjects of BLP's when they show us how uncontroversial information on their page is wrong. Ryan Vesey 22:55, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, so, this is an OFFICE and/or IAR issue then?--MONGO 23:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For general users, it is WP:IAR: Whenever there seems to be no policy phrase which supports updating an article to match reality, then any user should feel free to wp:IAR ignore rules and question a person's middle name or note "Hurricane Katrina hit Mississippi and Alabama with waves 20–30 feet (6–9 m) deep". In the case of Katrina, then finally the sources noted how, in all 3 coastal counties of Mississippi, each emergency command center flooded at 30 feet (9 metres) above sea level. So, the water does not say, "Knock, Knock, I'm at the doorstep 9 metres deep, let me flood the interior", but instead, waves drove the water beyond the mere 30-foot (9 m) level to flood the interior of those command centers. Later, the official hurricane-security procedures were changed to raise emergency centers to higher than 30 feet (9 m) in coastal areas. Perhaps people near New Orleans watched water slowly rise to 7 feet deep (2 m), and just could not believe 100 miles (160 km) east, an entire sea of water came rushing ashore up to 30 feet deep (9 m) with waves pushing higher. But sources can confirm the issues raised during an wp:IAR update. Any user, not just Jimbo, can change an article to reflect the real situation, and sort through the sources to support the conclusion. -Wikid77 (talk) 03:32, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like the sort of point I'd want to see sourced - even someone standing in the midst of that hurricane might not know for sure if the water flowing into the command center is truly an ocean wave, or (for example) a wave of brackish water that built up in some oxbow or basin 25 feet above sea level that was then whipped up by hurricane winds. Wnt (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source as complex FEMA engineering document: The U.S. FEMA documents, from November 2005, report the flooding and storm surge in the area, and do also emphasize the impact of "high winds":

FEMA: Hurricane Katrina Flood Recovery (Mississippi): notes "combination of a storm surge of up to 30 feet [9.1 m], wave action, and high winds resulted in destruction of buildings".
FEMA ms_overview.pdf - map of flooding in coastal Mississippi ("ms") [view with magnification 50%].

The map of flooding has purple contour lines of storm surge (1-foot increments), as 20-foot, 21-foot, to 25 feet (8 m), plus the 2-foot tide at the time, and noted wave action as another 2 feet higher, plus the effect of the nonstop winds. When the water is that deep, for 6 miles (9.7 km), then not much more sourcing is needed to explain the flooding. However, that is likely another issue for disbelief, that the water was that deep for miles and miles (each square on the map is 2 × 2 miles [3 × 3 km]). -Wikid77 (talk) 04:24, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you have sources, so I see no problem. I should add that I think it's best to stick with the precise language of the sources - i.e. to say "surge inundation", since that's what the map legend says. (the article on storm surge seems to distinguish between "storm tide" and "wave run-up") If you have a source that a command center was flooded, you say that; obviously you couldn't assume it was flooded just because that area on the preliminary map is shaded yellow, for example.

I believe there's nothing wrong with out and out contradictions in articles if that's what your sources have given you - if one source says the storm surge went up 25 feet, and another says something at 30 was flooded, then you print them both and wait to hear more about whether it was wave run-up or ground subsidence or a poorly thought out pumping strategy that explains it. Wnt (talk) 18:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Strong source for the long version unearthed

On Talk:will.i.am#Strong source for his long name, I have unearthed a rather strong source for the claim that the long name is the actual name on his birth certificate. The article clearly is not simply based on our Wikipedia article, and has a rather detailed description of his name and how he and his mom reacted to this. It may be a fabrication or a mistake, but it seems doubtful to me. Fram (talk) 08:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Now we are getting somewhere.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the more this gets discussed the more apparent it becomes that will.i.am only meant "wrong" in the sense that he doesn't want people to know certain facts about him, even though they are widely reported in the media. A tweet from the beginning of the year was just shown at the talk page where he also claims that Wikipedia got his aliases wrong, but the only one he denies from what I can tell is Zuper Blahq, which is obviously him from listening to one of the songs and it has been widely reported just like his name. I am thinking Wikipedia got all the names and nick names right, but will.i.am just doesn't want his article to include this information. On the name it may be that, given the fact he never knew his father, will.i.am just doesn't particularly like to be associated with his full name.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now we are getting somewhere indeed, but in the meantime your remark in the edit summary and your reply here that "It's a falsehood. Please do not insert it again. There is nothing inconsiderate about my saying so." are standing. Perhaps "verifiability, not truth", and WP:AGF aren't things that should be adhered to, and you shouldn't be so quick to assume that what you know or have been told is necessarily the truth and anything that disagrees with this is a falsehood. Perhaps next time try to edit without making such accusations. Fram (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except that it was a falsehood you were re-inserting.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know that your knowledge is superior to that of actual reliable sources, and that you are infallible. I once said here that you were a benevolent dictator, but I have to admit that I was wrong then; you clearly are the God-king instead. It was futile to try to have a rational, adult discussion with you, since no matter what was presented as evidence, it would still be "a falsehood", since you obviously know better. Please put this into policy somewhere, perhaps as a new pillar, so that we mere mortals don't err again in contradicting you and doubting your Word. I'll go and flagellate myself now. Fram (talk) 13:50, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, if you know or hear about wrong content, do not promote original research by changing that and stating:"I know" or "I heard"... Instead, try to look what reliable sources are stating. In one case, you would have quickly found something supporting a move, you could have used that as rationale in the edit summary. In the second case, you would have seen that it would be not that sure... and you could have asked for discussion at the talk page. If you would have followed that, this big discussion about your behaviour would not exist. Please, do it like that next time.--Müdigkeit (talk) 12:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will do in the future precisely what I am doing in this case. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR, insulting editors, edit warring, jumping to incorrect conclusions, and leaving it up to others to do the actual work of searching for the best sources and building a compromise solution? Why would you try to edit less confrontational, more constructive, more policy-compliant and more reality-based in the future when you can continue to create a mess instead? But it's hardly your fault, I note that learning experience is still a redlink. Fram (talk) 13:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ANI...

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Müdigkeit (talk) 14:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why does it make me feel better that even Jimbo has to put up with this stuff.LOL! Facepalm! SMACK! I guess he is just like us....no one is ever going to see anyone as perfect and AN/I just a battleground these days.--Amadscientist (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What you know vs. who you know

Jimmy, the only problem I see with your approach to this is that it seems like you're implying that someone like Philip Roth should have just gone to a wiki-conference somewhere and explained the situation to you or another "high-power Wikipedian". The rules for BLP subjects who don't go to wikimeetups are insanely complicated, but those who do get to go around them. Is that really the rule you want to stand behind? Do you realize that this fits perfectly into the "it's all about making Jimmy look good so he can buy the castle" theory? Please surprise me: I really would feel much better about the time and effort I gave if you would surprise me on this issue. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 21:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Buy a castle? What the hell are you talking about?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:47, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Man...and I thought I was getting attacked today.....Chin up Jimbo. Its all we can do. _{Well you can do more but....} I seriously cannot believe the way people act when you actually took the time to respond. I have a freaking headache now. Done for the day. I feel very discouraged with all this conflict and arguing. The fun is really deflating from the site. People...pick up a trout or a pillow. I am taking a long break from this place. I suggest everyone getting upset do the same.--Amadscientist (talk) 13:57, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I wanted to make a POINT, based on Jimbo's logic, I could change the article on Iggy Pop to say that his full name is 'Iggleston Popsworth IV', citing that 'I'm sat with Iggy, he told me' - and that would be acceptable? Nonsense. Giant Snowman 14:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That point would completely ignore my entire argument and everything that I've said about this issue. I've been around here for a long time, and I'm rather known for not being, well, bonkers. You may not agree with what I have to say but anytime you find you think that I'm speaking "nonsense" (rather than just being mistaken in some thoughtful way), you'd best check your premises... you've probably misunderstood me.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with personal anecdotes being used to support changes to articles is that we can't conceivably check the veracity of the source. I don't think any editor should be put in the position of having to trust that an editor is right. Plenty of smart and capable people get things wrong and being able to double-check insures that we don't make the wrong decisions on content.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:18, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo, don't get me wrong - I trust you. I believe that the edits you've made are 100% accurate. The issue here is verifiability - how does the world at large know you're making a genuine edit? I also wasn't saying your edit/comments were nonsense - I was saying the idea that any editor making that kind of edit was nonsense. Imagine if an IP had done the exact same as you! Giant Snowman 16:24, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think Jimbo is bonkers. I do feel that his very public action undercuts the hard work that many of us do to turn articles from unsourced muck into usable resources. There were other routes. I wish that he would at least recognize that this is an issue.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One could get the impression that Jimbo added "X is a whore who fucked 50 horses" and "B killed 25 people and ate their balls"... then I could understand the outrage. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 16:34, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose that at a purely theoretical level I understand the concern being expressed here, but only on a purely theoretical and artificial level. I doubt very much that we are going to start accepting genuinely problematic original research or unsourced information on the basis that "... But Jimmy Wales once changed two BLP subjects' names to what they said they were!!!" The level of concern and attention being drawn to these two edits by Jimbo is disproportionate. Any significant concerns about the substance of the edits (and I think even these are overblown, but at least they are worth talking about) are being addressed on the two article talkpages. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:58, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One obvious concern is that he seems to be saying these things are wrong, when it does not appear they are actually wrong and he is exhibiting a double standard in making these changes with the simple "trust me, it's true" explanation. Anyone else making that kind of edit would get a tongue-lashing and not have anyone defending them because it is just common sense that we should not accept personal anecdotes as reliable sources.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted on the article talkpage, in the case of Tawakkol Karman, we are dealing with the English transliteration of a name from the original Arabic. There is notoriously no single "right" or "wrong" version of the English name, and in that context, the subject's preference between reasonable versions of the transliteration deserves substantial deference, especially where it is found in a large number of sources.

The case of Will.i.am seems to be slightly more complicated, but the talkpage appears to be addressing it. Given the specifics of what he Will.i.am said to Jimbo, Jimbo's deleting the disputed part of the name until consensus is worked through on the talkpage seems consistent with the BLP policy. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except he is the one who created the dispute in the first place by putting forward a personal anecdote as a source against dozens of documented reliable sources that said the exact opposite in a way that would get any other editor in a whole mess of trouble with little defense offered for said editor.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nor do I. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 18:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Would either of you be willing to be more specific about where your disagreement lies?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon my candor which follows: Specifically, I meant to reject the totality of your assertions; ~~in concert with your manner, perceived motive, and deed.~~ I do not doubt your sincerity. I simply believe you are sincerely wrong. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 21:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Perceived motives"? I believe the people in charge of this project, who receive the most benefit from it, should exemplify the behavior they expect of those volunteering here, who receive little benefit from it. Should you find something unsavory or flawed about that view then that is certainly disquieting.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:05, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did strike my regards as they relate to my own perception. They were misplaced and I apologize for that. I agree with your sentiments above; and similarly expect exemplary leadership. I just don't see where Mr. Wales ever exceeded those bounds. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 01:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh good grief. "Buying a castle for the God-King" is a bit of a meme, Jimmy... I assumed (apparently incorrectly) that you were familiar with it. The point was that "normal people" have to navigate a labyrinth of ridiculously complicated rules to get their biographies (or the articles for their companies, etc.) corrected, unless they have a drink with you or someone else with "Wikipedia juice" (please don't tell me you don't know what Google juice is). Otherwise I completely agree with Newyorkbrad. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:42, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Primary sources

It seems to me that a big part of the problem here is the discordant, non-consistent way in which we deal with primary sources on Wikipedia. As well as how WP:AGF applies to the addition of content, as opposed to just how we should treat each other in discussions.

I have tried for literally years to get a discussion started on getting a policy/guideline page started concerning how we deal with primary sources. What is noted at WP:OR is just not clear enough, and is focused primarily upon interpretation/extrapolation/synthesis.

For one example, we've been running into issues concerning categories over the question of whether to categorise people based upon what they say about themselves. For example, per WP:EGRS, we currently categorise a person by whatever ethnicity they say they are. But this had led to some odd situations (and that not even getting into the recent Mass. contentions concerning Elizabeth Warren and ethnicity). Note that there is currently an RfC concerning this general topic.

We have a common practice here that we WP:AGF of our editors.

For example, if an editor states at AN/I that they have spoken to a particular school's administrators concerning a recent vandalism situation, we trust that that is factual unless/until proven otherwise.

Can we trust all editors in the same way concerning content? I so want to say "yes". But (as someone involved with the comics WikiProject), we've repeatedly run into editors claiming to get information from a comics creator, or even from those claiming to be the comics creator in question. Which are often (usually) false assertions, though on occasion determined to not be false.

That said, I don't think any of us would suggest that User:Jimbo Wales is not who he says he is.

So it comes down to a.) whether we believe his assertions that he spoke to the actual people in question and b.) whether we believe that the info provided was accurate ("true"). (WP:COI may also possibly come into play here.) But also, c.) whether we should allow additions to the encyclopedia based upon mere assertions.

The "potential truth" of a source (primary or otherwise), has always relied upon the strength of whether it can be corroborated. We have the same issue when the source of an article is from a book which is not online (or worse) no longer in print. How much do we trust each editor that such are true?

In my experience, we tend to follow a sort of WP:DUCK test to determine such things.

But as I note, we really should have a clear policy on this which isn't merely "assumed", or where what little is spoken of is spread out over several policies/guidelines.

Anyway, in the meantime, let's just WP:IAR, and allow the content, and (if wanted) have a follow up discussion concerning the information - though if it is considered BLP violation (another policy page) then per arbcom special rules, it should be immediately removed pending further discussion/sourcing/etc. - jc37 21:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We generally expect some sort of documentation that someone could conceivably check, even if it isn't easy to check or only possible for a select few to check. A conversation between two people that is not in some way documented should never be allowed as a source in itself. I certainly think it can be a way to start a content discussion, but it is not the way to end such a discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:21, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For everything added to an article? Actually, no we don't. We accept a lot on "good faith" and sources are typically only ever discussed on contested info.

That said, I think it would be fair to say that the info in question has been contested.

Which bring us to the other question of do we accept the assertion of an editor? On this point there have been many arguements already, but it's pretty clear to me that this is just not something well covered in policy, else people wouldn't be talking about popularity contests, and "who you know", etc.

In my experience, JW has been a proponent of the idea that "we are all Wikipedians here" when it comes to editing content. So as such, he shouldn't be given any special rules, neither through freedom or restriction in editing. Which means we should try to figure out how any other user should be treated in a similar situation. (Regardless of how any of us may presume how such an editor "would" be treated.)

In other words, let's stop with the idle complaining, and work towards a solution? - jc37 23:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My comment was actually pretty clear and not saying what you suggest. We expect some sort of documentation that someone could conceivably check. Basically, we expect editors to actually claim there is a documented source rather than just taking it on their word. Only in cases where something is self-evident does that not apply.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's ridiculous to act as if The Founder/public face of Wikipedia is any other editor. We could make up some bureaucratic nonsense about if an editor is self-declared (i.e. outed) and has X edits or is on the WMF board ... or we can apply common sense. Nobody Ent 01:46, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True, that is ridiculous. It would also be rather ridiculous to presume that any person, no matter their position, is incapable of making mistakes and therefore should always be presumed correct. We can assume good faith that Jimbo made the change believing it to be correct because he was told it was correct by the subject. It does not mean we should be expected to also assume it is correct without anyone needing to provide the means to verify it as correct.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:24, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) jc37, you've made a lot of good points in starting this thread. I'd like to extend an hypothesis regarding the point labeled c.). I believe there is a required distinction. There is a huge difference between adding uncited content and removing content said to be reliably sourced. I believe they should be measured by different bars. People speak of Jimbo's edit as if he added some unsourced content, though he did not. He removed a contentious inclusion; rightfully. Adding contentious content does require verifiability in reliable sources; removing content requires a thoughtful edit summary. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 03:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We have all sorts of reliable sources contradicting what Jimbo said so that is not even remotely the situation. At the same time we have no reliable sources to support what Jimbo says. The essence of academic inquiry is being able to review the evidence. Documents, no matter how difficult to access, are inherently open to review. Undocumented conversations are impossible to review so we shouldn't ever accept them as evidence. Anecdotal evidence is never acceptable. I am astounded that I even have to explain one of the most basic fundamentals of academic research.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:22, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Academic sources cite personal correspondence as sources all the time. Viriditas (talk) 05:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) I'm not addressing what Jimbo said, I'm addressing his edit. Show me a source that says you must not refer to will.i.am as William Adams. Show me a source that says his name is not William Adams. It is apparent to me that you can not be wrong for saying "William Adams, professionally known as will.i.am is ..." Especially when that form of his name is used in the preponderance of reliable sources. I showed you the tweet from will.i.am and you responded with an unequivocal assertion that he was being disingenuous; specifically citing the claim that his nick names were "#wrong" (I think "#wrong" hints at "numberwrong"). Because the article calls him "Will 1X" though I've seen many wp:rs render this as "WilloneX"[2], or "Will One X".[3] Surely you can see that 1X would equal #wrong if in fact OneX turns out to be #right! The article begins his musical career after high school with Atban Klann; omitting the important precursors of "Tribal Nation" and "Grassroots". You may want to do a bit less explaining on how research is done, and a bit more research; before dismissing this man's integrity. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 06:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of many academic sources that rely on undocumented conversations as evidence. Maybe, they use it to supplement other pieces of evidence, but not as the sole basis for a claim and certainly not when that claim conflicts with other available evidence.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 07:44, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually quite common.[4] Viriditas (talk) 08:58, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Personal correspondence" can refer to letters and other forms of documented communications. An OTRS ticket, for instance, is similar to a personal correspondence, but it is also documented so someone can check to make sure it says what it is purported to say.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 13:54, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I use the terms correspondence and communication synonymously, whereas academics do not. To clarify for the formal literalists who insist on artificial boundaries, I am referring to personal communication as a source, which includes unpublished interviews, discussions, telephone calls, meetings, unarchived e-mails, etc. These are used as primary sources in the literature.[5] Viriditas (talk) 23:55, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except even these things often refer to documented conversations, as in, things a person would be capable of checking. I imagine we would find that if a communication is not documented in some way, whether privately or publicly, it is not used to support an exceptional claim as is being done here. What we would most likely find is that such sources are used to supplement stronger sources or claims that can otherwise be readily tested.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, in the literature, the term "personal communication" is differentiated from "personal correspondence" by its undocumented nature, so it is not documented more than noting the parties present, the date and time, and the location. Further, it is assumed that it is not controversial for Jimbo Wales to document the correct name of a person, considering there is no known dispute in the relevant literature. In other words, the fact that Wikipedia editors object to such a correction tells us that there is a problem with our editors, not with using primary sources. Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, by "documented" I mean that there is a hard copy in existence. It is apparent that both "personal communication" and "personal correspondence" can refer to material that exists on a hard copy and that does not address how such sources are typically used in academic work. As to your claim about it being "assumed that it is not controversial" you are mistaken to suggest there is no known dispute. That we have conflicting usage and conflicting reports about which usage is accurate implies a dispute. In the case of will.i.am, his own words seem to conflict.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at the sources that use the two terms and look at the research guides documenting their use, you'll find that "personal communication" generally refers to undocumented sources (aside from name, date, location) while "personal correspondence" specifically refers to a hard copy. I did not know this prior to this discussion, as I thought both terms referred to the same thing. As for conflicting usage, that's something I've come across in every article I've ever worked on (I'm dealing with it at this very moment on The Magpie (Monet)) and does not say anything about a dispute nor does it imply one, so I really must disagree with you on that point. A dispute is notable only when we have a source detailing it explicitly. Conflicting usage, on the other hand, is very common, often due to a variety of factors, none of which may imply a dispute. Viriditas (talk) 04:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Updating articles re Oxford study

(tangent to earlier thread "#Jagged 85 and Wikipedia accuracy").

Now, with a focus on correcting problems noted in the Oxford study (and Baltimore Sun article), there are 4 main articles which were questioned: "Anselm of Canterbury", "William of Ockham", "Thomas Acquinas", and "John Duns Scotus". The articles were criticized, variously, as "being a mess" or "still containing (subtle) vandalism" or having some "incoherent" passages. Of course, as live articles, other editors might already be fixing these issues at any time, but typical improvements to articles tend to be minor. My first concern is to improve readability of text for the general public, because errors can slip into articles at any point, within minutes of "rewriting to perfection" so the article should be readable for the remainder which has not been hacked. Also, if the text remains too obtuse, then editors might not realize when additional arcane wording was a hack edit to warp the text. A tactic to spot conceptual vandalism is to repeat concepts, in a redundant manner, so when any later text repetitions contradict earlier text, then vandalism might be the cause of the mismatch contradictions. Also, too many tangents about other people could lure a hack edit, so avoiding incidental talk about later people might be a good method to reduce confusion. So, list most cultural influences as a separate section, then if someone adds nonsense or off-topic connections, it might be easier to spot. Now, specifically, for each article:

"Anselm of Canterbury" - I removed the debated phrase about Islamic philosopher Avicenna (Ibn Sina) having written the proof years earlier, which was a controversial and off-topic tangent to Anselm.
"William of Ockham" - The article revision of 25 September 2012 seems too terse, and perhaps pedantic in tone, and so general readers might be unable to read and recall Ockham's viewpoints. Again, many formal obtuse phrases should be expanded, to be accompanied with simplified explanations.
"Thomas Aquinas" - Because he was perhaps the most famous of these, there should be many simple sources to back the text.
"John Duns Scotus" - Any problems in that article ("patchy and uneven") were noted as "not detected" during earlier studies for accuracy, but the September revisions have been fixed for punctuation and italics for titles. For comparison, the Plato.Stanford.edu article is linked: On Plato: "Duns Scotus".

That is the initial status so far. —— Regarding possible vandalism, perhaps some could be called "scholastic vandalism" making debatable claims which many readers would not realize, but those articles are open to IP-address users, so anyone could hack the text, especially someone with wp:POINT intentions to ruin articles. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:36/04:09, revised 00:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many other articles need italic book titles: Lest anyone think those philosophy-related articles have unique problems, I should note that many major articles have some simple punctuation problems, or need italics for book titles. Recently, major article "Jennifer Lopez" needed over 50 punctuation changes, after a spree of updates had added numerous awkward phrases. In fact, I would advocate "WikiProject Revise Top 1,000 Articles monthy" because, while many thousands of minor articles need "85 changes" for punctuation and rewording, the Top 1000 articles viewed (each month) are continually changed to have some awkward wording. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:03, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See my points below. I thought 'crowdsourcing' was supposed to resolve problems with 'scholastic' vandalism? 109.145.123.62 (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One the errors in the four articles cited above

On the four articles above and what is wrong with them.

Anselm of Canterbury. Somebody has corrected the anachronistic claim about Avicenna. There remain other errors. For example, the original EB1911 article read "This demonstration is the substance of the Monologion and Proslogion. In the first of these the proof rests on the ordinary grounds of realism". The term 'the first of these' correctly refers to Monologion. This was mangled in the Wikipedia article to "Anselm wrote many proofs within Monologion and Proslogion. In the first proof, Anselm relies on the ordinary grounds of realism". In the Wikipedia hack, 'the first of these' now refers to the first of the 'many proofs'. This is incorrect. There is actually a further error introduced by that Wikipedia revision, but I will let the Wikipedia editors here pick that one up.
John Duns Scotus - Buckner's critique was written early in August 2012. Apparently he grew so frustrated with the state of the Scotus article that attempted to correct it himself. The original version at the end of July is here, the version after revision is here. The corrections were about his life and influence. Note that the 'thought' sections (wrongly titled 'Metaphysics') are still (rightly) flagged as needing attention. However his identity was spotted and he was blocked [6] on 13 August, with an explanation that any of his edits may be reverted. The justification by the blocking editor was that other editors would make the corrections. However, the errors had been in there so long that this seems unlikely. (The errors in the Anselm article are all there bar one, but that was only removed because Buckner pointed it out via the Baltimore Sun).
William of Ockham - this is still a complete mess. This is not (just) because of the style. It goes much deeper than that. One example: "In logic, Ockham wrote down in words the formulae that would later be called De Morgan's Laws, and he pondered ternary logic, that is, a logical system with three truth values; a concept that would be taken up again in the mathematical logic of the 19th and 20th centuries." This is another anachronism, i.e. having a writer be an 'earlier' discoverer of some fact discovered or claim made much later. Where is the secondary citation for the 'De Morgan's law' claim? And where is the 'ternary logic' claim sourced? The De Morgan one is plausible. The ternary logic one is bizarre. The 'theory of knowledge' section is completely wrong. It is entirely false (or a severely mangled version of an accurate account).
Aquinas - I do not know much about Aquinas, so I would not presume to comment on or correct that article.

109.145.123.62 (talk) 08:06, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it OK to call other editors "arsehole" or "dishonest idiot"?

Is it OK to call someone an "arsehole"[7] or a "dishonest idiot"?[8] Apparently, some admins[9] think it's OK. Is there anything that you can do to restore some sanity to the situation? MF has already been before ArbCom and they failed to do anything about it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really, I don't see why you are bringing this here, Quest. Maybe you don't think the administrators of Wikipedia are capable of dealing with this alone? -- Avanu (talk) 00:46, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I won't be commenting here, but I would like people to please take a look at the entire situation, rather than just the diffs posted by AQFK. Ryan Vesey 00:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Me, neither, assuming that it is not the usual ganging-up issue. And if it is then you should at least provide Jimbo with the background. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Avanu: Obviously, the admins are incapable of dealing with this problem. How can you even ask such a question? The last I counted, MF had been blocked some 13 times and still MF always returns to his old ways. And as I pointed out in my post, MF has been before ArbCom and even ArbCom proved to be incapable of doing anything. Since the admins won't do anything and ArbCom won't do anything, perhaps Jimbo can bring some sanity to the situation? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:10, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is Jimbo somehow above ArbCom? Perhaps I have missed something. - Sitush (talk) 01:12, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't change the subject, especially with a strawman. Thanks. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:16, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand your comment at all. I rarely do when people mention "strawman", despite looking it up. You appear to imply that ArbCom have been unable to handle and that Malleus's block record (which, rightly or wrongly, was long even before the ArbCom case) somehow speaks for itself. And you appeal to Jimbo - who is just a regular contributor - to bring sense to the proceedings. Where is the strawman? Why not ask me to bring some sense to it? Or Joe Bloggs? John Doe? Etc. Either Jimbo is a regular editor with admin status or he has some sort of superset of privileges. I don't particularly care which, but it would be good to know for future reference. - Sitush (talk) 01:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo is a person, not an object to put into arbitrary pigeonholes.Nobody Ent 02:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He is the only user that flies the Founder flag; which I believe does make him a level unique. 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 05:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to answer that, it is not ok, of course. Can you provide a link to the arbcom case?--Müdigkeit (talk) 01:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quest, I think the admins can deal with this, but I think they need some better organization on their boards. While the 'easy stuff' gets handled quickly and efficiently, the more complicated stuff gets pulled off track far too easily. They need to have admin 'classes' where they get a bit of instruction in conflict resolution, keeping things civil, on track, and focused on one issue at a time. Malleus got told "fuck you" by an admin, and was being rather coy in how he presented the issue, which led to a delay in anyone giving a shit. Meanwhile he made a minor incivil comment back and got immediately blocked for it. I don't think the block was the will of the admin corps as a whole, but the lack of willingness on the part of admins to enforce their own policies against themselves makes one wonder if we need more training for them, a more anonymous complaint system, or maybe a non-empowered admin review board for admin misdeeds. In any case, laying all of this at the feet of Malleus Fatorum is unlikely to fix the broader issues. -- Avanu (talk) 01:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Müdigkeit: MF routinely makes personal attacks and no one does anything about it. A small sampling of the evidence presented in that case included:

See WP:ARBCIV if you don't believe me. Trust me, I couldn't make up this stuff if I tried. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:48, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, recall that back in User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 113#Incivility, it was deemed acceptable for AndytheGrump to say "fuck of and die you disgusting little heap of shit. Sociopathic scum like you..." to Meowy because the latter held a distasteful point of view on a particular matter. So, yes, sometimes it is apparently quite ok to say such things. Tarc (talk) 02:17, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Who says that it was 'deemed acceptable'? Nobody. Everyone (including me) has stated that it was inappropriate. I shouldn't have done it. Everyone says I shouldn't have done it. There is no point in trying to make it out as some sort of precedent establishing the limits of 'acceptability' because (a) it wasn't acceptable, and (b) Wikipedia isn't ruled by precedent. If it had been, I'd probably have been blocked on the spot. Maybe I should have been - but the fact that I wasn't doesn't establish some sort of 'ruling' in regard to what we can say about whom. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

True, but incomplete. Read the case -- throughout Wikipedia numerous examples of unsanctioned incivility were found. Singling out an individual for systematic problems isn't helpful. See also User:Nobody_Ent/Notes_on_civility Nobody Ent 02:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Nobody Ent: Blaming someone else's poor behavior is not an excuse for one's own poor behavior. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So Quest, what is the answer? I'd love for people to act more professionally, but our administrators aren't consistently enforcing it. Our policies are STRICTLY opposed to incivility, but the arbiters of policy are often prejudicial in how they enforce it (which is itself a violation of civil conduct). So how do we write a fair and consistent rule that can be applied in an almost programmatic way when Civility is such an amorphous thing? -- Avanu (talk) 02:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is simple! Make a proposal: Anyone violating WP:NPA or WP:HA more than 2 times, must get blocked for at least 2 days, after the 4th incident the minimum is a month, after the 5th the minimum is a year, and the 6th one will result in an infinite siteban.--Müdigkeit (talk) 03:08, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you folks get these arbitrary exponentials from? What's the point? Why can't you propose a simple pay-for-play like in Demolition Man? Wnt (talk) 03:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of exponential punishment either. I think a consistent simple punishment for it would be more fair and less about excluding people, and more about simply making the point that it is a bad action. If it gets to the point that a person is getting in trouble a lot for incivility, we could simply have a unique punishment for that behavior. -- Avanu (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Avanu: If I had the answer, I wouldn't be asking for someone else for the answer, now would I? But certainly, we can all agree that the worst offenders need to be addressed, right? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No we cannot agree on the worst offenders. We have to agree on everybody and anybody, always. Since that's not gonna happen, screw it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 05:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AQFK, What you've done here is disruptive. You've apparently come to the wrong venue, stirring up drama. Before taking up your complaint, I have to ask myself, "is the complaining editor part of the problem?". Unfortunately you are. Please drop it because I'd rather not block you tonight. MF will be dealt with in turn. His mistakes do not excuse yours. Jehochman ^Talk 04:29, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK... Why don't we all just calm down, have A nice cup of tea/coffee and a sit down and come back to this in a couple of hours or so? Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 04:34, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Jehochman: Really? Bringing one of the most disruptive problems to one of the most prominent Wikipedia editor's is disruptive? Really??? Drawing attention to an existing problem is the fault of the person reporting the problem? If I recall correctly, reaching out to Jimbo is not forum shopping. I've seen banned editors (which I am NOT) allowed to talk to Jimbo. But if you're saying that legitimate editors are not allowed to even talk to Jimbo, then bring it on. Please remember, that this hurts you more than me. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:40, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see suggestions that there are circumstances not found in this thread that shed necessary light. I'll assume that's a fact and further assume it justifies Jehochman's block threat above. (although I already know that nothing justifies idle threats) I've been neck deep in this same quagmire, absorbed his unsolicited character assessments, and measured the strength of his allies. Mostly I've resolved to stay out of this topic area, but I will share a measure of solace with you; and hope that it helps. When I refer to this editor as MF, I don't intend that to mean Malleus Fatuorum; but rather something entirely different. I also substitute my meaning for every comment where another editor has referred to him as MF; and generally even they make more sense read that way. Then I move on and think of all the energy I've saved. Try it yourself, just in case. Cheers - 76Strat ^String da _Broke da (talk) 05:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - posting "Block him Jimbo! Block him!" threads here whilst not putting the incident in context is effectively disruptive, or at the very least deceitful. I'm sure Jimbo is capable of reading the whole thread at WP:AN. Black Kite (talk) 08:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Black Kite, it comes down to nothing but ..... Jimbo will undoubtedly agree that anything less than super civility is unacceptable, but given that there a lot of inappropriately or objectionably mean, inconsiderate, contemptible, obnoxious, intrusive, or rude people on wikipedia, WP:ASSHOLE might apply. I see nothing blockable about what Malleus said, barely worth a warning, and in my experience, such heavy handed treatment towards him will only antagonize him further and waste time. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:44, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

AQFK,

It is a severe violation of WP:Civility to quote somebody out of context. In this case, the administrator who wrote 2 inflammatory and insulting emails to Malleus apologized publicly, rather quickly. Yet you failed to mention that Malleus was targeted with personal attacks. Please stop this one-sided misrepresentation immediately. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have been hovering around Wikipedia for the last couple of days, being tempted to return. However, nothing changes here does it? Mindless idiots, who would make most 95-year-old Italian grannies look broadminded, are still being promoted to admin status and causing problems to those seriously writing the project. And the rest of you see that, and complain about it continually, but nothing changes – is it ever going to? I just cannot fathom why these narrow minded little prigs are so admired and welcomed here. I think I shall stay where I don't have to have contact with such people. Giano | talk 10:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What? Recently elected admins are so much better. Before they used to arbitrarily delete BLP material (positive or negative, referenced or not). With that problem "resolved" they've moved on to other area of Wikipedia. And aggressive Randy-ism still sits perfectly fine with admins, especially with those elected this year. [10]. At least Jagged 85 was banned after messing up with the sacrosanct video game articles (after a six-year career of messing up with the history of science ones). Tijfo098 (talk) 13:02, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bringing a thread like this here, out of context and intended only as an invitation to bring a slashdot kind of crowd to the topic, is indeed disruptive. Jehochman is correct. AQFK's interest is abundantly clear here, no matter how much wikilawyering they do, no matter how much gushing of OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY'RE DOING THIS TO MY ENCYCLOPEDIA: this is trolling. There is no "right" to bring up something on Jimbo's page, nor can any such non-existing right be curtailed, of course. But there is a moral wrong here, and AQFK is busy demonstrating it. Shit-stirring is the proper term. Jimbo, my apologies for this potty talk. Drmies (talk) 20:18, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
One more thing: perhaps the initiator of this thread could show their good faith by putting "db-user" on the sandbox full of diffs from which they've plucked the Malleus diffs cited above (note that they don't improve with age, though some of them are genuinely vintage). They probably have one for me as well. Drmies (talk) 20:20, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Idea for a new Wiki...(such as Wikipedia, WikiBooks)

I have a new idea for a wiki, but I don't know where to put it. I don't want to reveal it yet. It's completely new, I've checked.--Lucky102 (talk) 16:12, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent Please weigh-in at The Beatles poll ... before it is too late

Please. There is a railroading in action. Help wikipedia fight this scary tide of judges and polls instead of consensus to establish common practice. This mediation was fixed from the start and now a biased poll is tricking people into voting for a mistake. Everyone knows its The Beatles. Please help us stem this movement before its too late and this wave of style guide obsessed editors will spread this like a rash across all of wikipedia. Please take the time to vote here Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles, and help us stop this most disturbing trend of using polls and judges to determine consensus. I thank you. 64.38.197.210 (talk) 00:08, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent Please ignore this ridiculous effort at canvassing... before it is too late... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:15, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Obvious sockpuppetry, or what? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am allowed to edit while logged-out. 64.38.197.210 (talk) 00:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot canvass at Jimbo's page, you should know that Andy. This is a real problem so show some respect. 64.38.197.210 (talk) 00:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]