Talk:Buddhism

Edit request on 10 October 2012

I think that

"Mahayana is found throughout East Asia and includes the traditions of Pure Land, Zen, Nichiren Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Shingon, Tiantai (Tendai) and Shinnyo-en."

should be replaced with

"Mahayana is found throughout East Asia and includes the traditions of Pure Land, Zen, Nichiren Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism, Shingon, and Tiantai (Tendai)."

because Shinnyo-en is not a big enough sect of Buddhism to be listed as a tradition within Buddhism the same way that the others are. Shinnyo-en declares itself to be a part of the Shingon tradition as well. http://www.shinnyoenusa.net/about/beginning.htm

Etbwikier (talk) 18:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Shinnyo-en may be small, but it is not insignificant considering the number of followers and official recognition from Japan. I think it should be kept in the sentence, and instead "traditions" might be replaced by something else, like "sects" or "schools". ~Amatulić (talk) 21:14, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. If "traditions" is replaced with "sects" than other more sizable sects will have to be added into the sentence. Namely Soka Gakkai, but other sects as well, which are as big or bigger than Shinnyo-en, would have to be included in the sentence. Without Shinnyo-en in the sentence it retains the original meaning without excessive cuts. I agree Shinnyo-en is not insignificant in general but it should be included in a section on sects along with all the others. ~Etbwikier (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

 Not done. Not a reliable source, no argument for removing Shinnyo-en, arguments by Amatulic are good. gwickwire | Leave a message 22:37, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm confused by this comment. My arguments were for removing Shinnyo-en from this sentence. What/who is not a reliable source? ~Etbwikier (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Wah! Oopsie! I wrote the wrong name when I was denying the edit request. Sorry for the confusion!  still cannot accept this edit request, however. The link above is not a reliable source.

Are you talking about this link http://www.shinnyoenusa.net/about/beginning.htm? This is from Shinnyo-en's main website... How can you leave Shinnyo-en in a sentence setting it on the same level as the major traditions of Buddhism if you don't even deem it's website to be reliable?

Not done. I didn't look at the source, but I declined this request because the account making it is not autoconfirmed and should be able to edit the article. -Nathan Johnson (talk) 03:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Is Buddism a Religion or a Philosophy

Buddism is comonly referred to as a religeon, yet a Buddist does not really pray to another thing or being, if anything they pray or meditate to themselves. Therefore, as they have nothing to appease to but themselves how could it be a religeon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LPG32 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

This topic is discussed in the article. - SudoGhost 21:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Since all three quotes in that section seem to say that it is not, why does the lede (which is meant to summarise the article) begin, "Buddhism is a religion indigenous to the Indian subcontinent..."? Could the opening sentences not be, "Buddhism encompasses a variety of traditions, beliefs, and practices largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the Buddha (meaning "the awakened one" in Sanskrit and Pāli). It is indigenous to the Indian subcontinent, the Buddha having lived and taught in the eastern part of which some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE." By shifting one clause into the second sentence, we neatly avoid this question until it can be treated more thoughtfully, and keep the two statements about the Indian subcontinent together. --Nigelj (talk) 22:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Because that section is discussing the alternative view. Scholarly consensus and common usage is that Buddhism is a religion. By narrowing and limiting the definition of what one considers "religion" it can be considered not a religion, but that would be true of of any religion. - SudoGhost 23:09, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Do you have any references for that? I only ask because I don't see it mentioned as such anywhere in the article, although I may have missed it. WP:DUE says that articles should fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. If what you say is so prominent that it defines the very opening of the lede, it should be mentioned somewhere, in context, with refs, in the body of the article. --Nigelj (talk) 23:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I think the article would be better if it did not state categorically that Buddhism is a "religion". The term "religion" is a Western concept. In the East, there traditionally was no separation between religion, philosophy, psychology and science. I would suggest opening with something like: "Buddhism is a collection of traditions, beliefs, and practices largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the Buddha (meaning "the awakened one" in Sanskrit and Pāli). The Buddhist traditions originated on the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent, where the Buddha lived and taught some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE." It makes no sense to me to say that "Buddhism is indigenous to the Indian subcontinent..." That makes as much sense to me as saying "Christianity is indigenous to the Middle East..." Buddhism may have started out in India, but the main centers or practice are elsewhere (Southeast Asia, Tibet, China, and Japan, etc.) - Dorje108 (talk) 00:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree. At the moment the article opens with the two least substantial, least important, things of all. And your suggested wording is much better than mine. --Nigelj (talk) 09:06, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I've compiled a list of sources to support this change:

* User:Dorje108/Buddhism and religion sources ----- Dorje108 (talk) 14:20, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

With regard to SudoGhost's point about limiting the definition of "religion". I don't think we need to concern ourselves in this article with the definition of religion. The problem is that by stating categorically that Buddhism is a religion, we are limiting the definition of Buddhism--trying to fit it into a box that it doesn't quite fit into. ---- 15:13, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Is Buddhism a Religion? - part 2

Buddism is commonly referred to as a religeon, yet a Buddist does not really pray to a thing or being, if anything they pray to, or meditate to themselves.

Nor do they have anything to appease but themselves. Some may argue that a religeon is simply something that contains a sereis of beleifs but I personly would disagree highly on that.

--LPG32 (talk) 12:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Not really sure why we see this question so much. Buddhism is a religion. The important distinction is that a religion requires faith, not that it requires belief in a deity. Until there is universally acclaimed scientific proof for the existence of karma and rebirth Buddhism will remain a religion. Except for some very modern scholarly interpretations, Buddhism depends upon rebirth/karma to establish the 12 interdependant links, which in turn underlie the entire thesis of the four noble truths. Without karma, there is no basis for refuge. Likewise, without the four noble truths, there is no purpose to the three higher trainings. Within traditions such as Zen (Tengu may be better qualified to explain this) the Wisdom tradition (the third of the three higher trainings) is prevalent - and the motivation is that of Mahayana. Without continuity of consciousness (ie, rebirth) the very meaning of Mahayana is uprooted.

I find it hard to imagine what it would feel like to be truly a Buddhist without faith in Karma/Rebirth. How could one begin to derive meaning from Lord Buddha's teachings? Without rebirth there is a personal escape from the consequences of one's actions. Moreover, the easiest way to rid ones-self from Samsara would be to merely take one's own life! This is a very dangerous road to follow. How could one distinguish Buddhism from Nihilism?

There is only one way in which Buddhism is not a religion - and that is that most Buddhists disbelieve in an omnipotent Judge God. Buddhists often believe in omniscience, and certainly many Buddhists believe in Devas - Gods - But the important distinction is that Buddhism identifies Karma with the role of determining one's future (rather than God the Judge) and declares that there is no-one that we can call upon to forgive us for our misdeeds. Instead we must take responsibility for our actions. (20040302 (talk) 10:52, 21 October 2012 (UTC))

Faith is an essential part of the Zen-tradition, at least of Rinzai-Zen: "Great faith, great doubt, great persistence". See * Park, Sung-bae (1983), Buddhist Faith and Sudden Enlightenment, SUNY Press. And prayer also seems to be an essential part of Buddhism; see for example Tibetan Buddhism. Our western understanding of Buddhism has a problem with these "supernatural" elements of Buddhism. See * McMahan, David L. (2008), The Making of Buddhist Modernism, Oxford University Press, ISBN 9780195183276 - as a starter.

So, although I don't believe there is a personal God, I have no problem with calling Buddhism a "religion". Joshua Jonathan (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

FROM Dorje108: No one is denying the Faith plays an important part in Buddhism, or the Buddhism has many aspects of religion. But the following points should be considered.

1. There is not clear consensus on what a religion is. For many people, religion implies belief in a creator god and some kind of creed. For example, here is a statement from the Wikipedia article on religion:

   "A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious, 23% are not religious, and 13% are atheists."

   So where does Buddhism fit into this poll? Are they among the religious or atheists?

2. There are aspects of Buddhism that differentiate it from other religions: the emphasis on logic and analysis, understanding the true nature of reality, a "science of mind", and the belief that eventually one must go beyond all concepts and beliefs.
3. There is no clear consensus among scholars or Buddhists that Buddhism should categorically be considered a religion. How could there be, since there is no consensus on what a religion is? Scholars clearly disagree on this point. For example:
   • Rupert Gethin states: "I am not concerned here to pronounce on a question that is sometimes asked of Buddhism: is it a religion? Obviously it depends on how one defines ‘a religion’. What is certain, however, is that Buddhism does not involve belief in a creator God who has control over human destiny, nor does it seek to define itself by reference to a creed...
   • Damien Keown states: "Problems [...] confront us as soon as we try to define what Buddhism is. Is it a religion? A philosophy? A way of life? A code of ethics? It is not easy to classify Buddhism as any of these things, and it challenges us to rethink some of these categories. What, for example, do we mean by ‘religion’? Most people would say that religion has something to do with belief in God. [...] If belief in God in this sense is the essence of religion, then Buddhism cannot be a religion. [...] Some have suggested that a new category – that of the ‘non-theistic’ religion – is needed to encompass Buddhism. Another possibility is that our original definition is simply too narrow.

I've provided multiple sources that show ambiguity and differences of opinion on this subject: User:Dorje108/Buddhism and religion sources. These sources are not "minority" points of view. They are from mainstream scholars (e.g. Rupert Gethin, Damien Keown) and mainstream Budhdists (e.g. the Dalai Lama, Walpola Rahula). "Buddhism is based on the teachings of the Buddha." This is all that needs to be said. This article does not need to state that Buddhism "is" or "is not" a religion. This is an open question, and the article should reflect this ambiguity.

(Note that I changed the section heading to reflect that this is a continuation of the previous section.) --- Dorje108 (talk) 12:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

FROM Dorje108: What we can accurately state is that Buddhism has been variously described as a religion, a "nontheistic religion", a philosophy, a science of mind, or a way of life. --- Dorje108 (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This may be accurate in some ways, but it is original research, and not the most common view of Buddhism itself, or of scholarship. The most common classification for Buddhism is that it is a religion, or more specifically, a Dharmic religion. Eastern religions are often broad, and if we say Buddhism is all of these things, then that is probably true of Hinduism, Daoism, etc. as well. Tengu800 15:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Tengu800, thanks for your comments. But I'm basing my comments based on many prominent main stream sources that are stating it is either inaccurate, or not entirely accurate to categorize Buddhism as "a religion": User:Dorje108/Buddhism and religion sources How can this be original research if I am citing over a dozen sources? And how many sources do you need before you agree that this is not an "alternative" view. I have yet to see anyone else in this discussion cite a single source. Where are your sources that state Buddhism must be categorized as a religion? Buddhism is commonly "referred to" as a religion, but it is also commonly referred to as a philosophy, a science of mind, a spiritual path, or a way of life. There is a deeper point here, and that is expressed very well in this quote from Thomas Merton:

When we look a little closer however, we find very serious and responsible practitioners of Zen first denying that it is "a religion," then denying that it is a sect or school, and finally denying that it is confined to Buddhism and its "structure." For instance, one of the great Japanese Zen Masters, Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen, said categorically: "Anybody who would regard Zen as a school or sect of Buddhism and call it Zen-shu, Zen school, is a devil." To define Zen in terms of a religous system or structure is in fact to destroy it--or rather to miss it completely... --- Thomas Merton, Zen and the Birds of Appetite, A New Directions Paperbook, p. 3

Barbara O'Brien makes a similar point:[1]

In many ways, the "religion versus philosophy" argument is an artificial one. The neat separation between religion and philosophy we insist on today didn't exist in western civilization until the 18th century or so, and there never was such a separation in eastern civilization. To insist that Buddhism must be one thing and not the other amounts to forcing an ancient product into modern packaging.

In Buddhism, this sort of conceptual packaging is considered to be a barrier to enlightenment. Without realizing it we use prefabricated concepts about ourselves and the world around us to organize and interpret what we learn and experience. One of the functions of Buddhist practice is to sweep away all the artificial filing cabinets in our heads so that we see the world as-it-is.

I'm really surprised that other editors are so set upon that idea the Buddhism must be categorized as a religion. Does this have to do with coming from an academic background, where subjects are supposed to fit into the "Religion department" or the "Philosophy department." I really don't get it. ---- Dorje108 (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Just to add to this I think both arguments are valid, personally I think Buddhism isn't a religion and based on the books I've read I think it's backed up that it isn't. However! Based on the discussion above it's fair to say it's not entirely certain which it is. So based on this argument I don't think the opening sentence should say it's a religion. There should be a a section with essentially this argument in it but nowhere in the article should it say that it is a religion. Does anyone else agree with me here? It's too much of a debate for anywhere in this article to say it's definitely a religion. Sephers (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Without clarifying what books you're referring to, and the context the sentence is written in, that doesn't hold a lot of weight. As the discussion here has shown, context is important, when taken out of context it would seem there are a few sources that back up the "Buddhism is not a religion" claim, but when you take a closer look and take the passages in context, it turns are that this is not the case at all. - SudoGhost 22:52, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi SudoGhost, Just to be clear, I am not stating that "Buddhism is not a religion". What I am pointing out is that many well-respected reliable secondary sources have asserted that it is a matter of opinion as to whether you consider Buddhism is a religion or not. It depends upon your definition of religion. Many dictionary definitions for "religion" define the term as belief in a god. I am well aware that some scholars provide a much broader definition of religion, but you can't expect everyone who reads this article to have the same understanding of the term "religion". Therefore, the term should be clarified as soon as it is introduced (not several paragraphs later, or several sections later). For these reasons, I believe that it is neither necessary or helpful to begin the article by stating "Buddhism is a religion". Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 00:03, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

We've discussed this already, but every single source you claimed said that "Buddhism is not a religion" did not say this. Either the quote was taken out of context, or the passage was referring to something else entirely, such as your Zen example. To conclude that because many dictionary definitions give a certain definition of religion means that this is not a religion based on that criteria is original research, especially when most dictionaries give your specific example as one of several different definitions, not as the sole definition. - SudoGhost 01:24, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi SudoGhost, To try and clarify one more time. I am not claiming that the sources that I've cited say that "Buddhism is not a religion". What multiple sources state very clearly is that "it depends on your definition of religion." And the dictionary definitions support the proposition that there are in fact different definitions for the term religion. It seems to me that to say that "Buddhism is a religion" is equally incorrect as saying "Buddhism is not a religion." To put it another way, which of the following three statements is correct: a) Buddhism is a religion; b) Buddhism is not a religion; c) It depends on your definition of religion. The correct answer is "c". Statements "a" and "b" are both making assertions that are only true roughly half the time. I hope this helps clarify why I think the lead should be changed. I think the present lead is a cause for confusion for many people. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 03:26, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Many sources say that Buddhism is a religion but you haven't provided a single one says it is not, so the three choices you present are not as equal as is being suggested, and such a view would be extremely WP:UNDUE at any rate; we don't give equal voice to a minor opinion just because it exists, and we don't avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic just because you express concern that the term "has negative connotations." Also as a source you provided points out, every religion has multiple reliable sources that say that the given religion "depends on your definition of religion" as to whether it is a religion or not; this is nothing unique to Buddhism and is not cause to change the lede. - SudoGhost 03:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

How about adding a note to the word "religion" in the lead, shortly explaining that it is not "religion" in the "usual sense", but nevertheless has many traits of religion. See [2][3][4][5]. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:54, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The problem with that is that no religion is a religion in a usual sense. If you ask 100 people what religion is you'll get 100 answers; religion has no usual sense. The article has an entire section discussing the subject (and the amount of content in that section seems a bit undue and quote-happy), I think a note would be an unnecessary redundancy. - SudoGhost 17:52, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

"The lead should define the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." (WP:LEDE). The fact that there is an entire section in the article means that there is something to discuss. No one is saying that the lede should say that Buddhism is not a religion, just that it should not begin by stating your opinion in the first four words, when this is clearly at odds with the cited facts in the body of the article. The facts are simply that there is a debate about this in top-level literature, and so Wikipedia should not state just one opinion in its own voice right at the start. There are no article sections discussing whether or not Judaism, Christianity etc are religions. --Nigelj (talk) 19:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Suggested text for the opening has been proposed long ago by Dorje108 above: "Buddhism is a collection of traditions, beliefs, and practices largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the Buddha (meaning "the awakened one" in Sanskrit and Pāli). The Buddhist traditions originated on the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent, where the Buddha lived and taught some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE." What exactly is your problem with this text? --Nigelj (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The fact that the entire section is already WP:UNDUE shoots that logic down considerably. Buddhism is a religion, to avoid this terminology would be a violation of Wikipedia policy. Given that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources describe the subject as a religion, it makes no sense to change the lede, especially when no sources can be presented to support removing the wording. WP:RNPOV clealry says that "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." Suggesting that the word "religion" be avoided is counter to that policy. - SudoGhost 20:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

You skipped the important bit, which says, "NPOV policy means that Wikipedia editors ought to try to write sentences like this: "Certain adherents of this faith (say which) believe X, and also believe that they have always believed X; however, due to the findings (say which) of modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z."" From the range of scholarly references given here, we must admit that there is expert dispute about this point. Beginning the article by pretending that there is not, when there is no need to do so, is unjustified by sources. --Nigelj (talk) 22:25, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments:

• Here is another important point on the NPOV policy: "Rather, to be neutral is to describe debates rather than engage in them. In other words, when discussing a subject, we should report what people have said about it rather than what is so. This is not to say anything philosophically contentious; indeed, philosophers describe debates all the time. Even sophisticated relativists will immediately recognize that "neutrality", in this sense, is perfectly consistent with their philosophy."
• SudoGhost, I appreciate the time and effort you are putting into stewarding this article. It's not an easy job. But I don't follow your logic on this point. It seems to me that the policies on NPOV and WP:UNDUE actually support making the change. The sources that I am citing are some of the most prominent Buddhists and scholars I know of. (E.g. the Dalai Lama and Rupert Gethin.) Surely there must be a reason why they are putting forth such a nuanced interpretation--that they do not make the flat out assertion that you claim to be the "majority" opinion. I believe that the reason why these sources are being so careful is because they are attempting to explain Buddhism to the broadest possible audience, to people who are not Buddhists, but who are interested in what Buddhism has to say. You would give more weight to the academic sources you have cited, but aren't these sources in most cases speaking to a much smaller audience (follow academics or students) who are likely to share their understanding of what is meant by "religion". When you are speaking to an audience of your peers, you don't need to clarify every term, because everyone shares a common understanding of these terms. But when you are speaking to a wider audience that does not share this common understanding, then you need to put things in context. When you say "religion", you need clarify what you mean by religion--otherwise your audience will not understand your intent, and they will be likely to misinterpret what you are saying. I hope this helps clarify why I think this is an important change that should be made.
• Nigelj, I am glad someone else finally weighed in on this. Hooray! :)
• Jonathan, thanks for proving the extra sources. Very interesting. As regards to your suggestion of using a footnote, I think it would be far better to rewrite the lead sentence without mentioning religion. I think the question of religion should be addressed in the lead section, but not in the first sentence. I've indicated my preferred approach in my "suggestion for revised lead." It would be nice to hear some other opinions on this. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

This is the wrong direction for the lead of an article. It seems to be a minority view based on the politics of the term "religion," and being pushed by Wikipedia editors rather than by any serious debate in scholarship. Needless to say, a lead should be short, clear, and concise, giving the essential information about a subject. For this page, that information should definitely include that Buddhism is a religion, which is a classification used by the vast majority of sources. Tengu800 01:09, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

You've made that point several times, but seem to be forgetting what was already discussed. The sources you're claiming support your proposed change do not actually say what you're suggesting they do. Wikipedia does not avoid terminology out of fear that its meaning will be "misinterpreted". You haven't presented a single source that claims that Buddhism is not a religion. If such sources could be found, they are extremely minor viewpoints, and Wikipedia policy does not warrant giving such insignificant viewpoints equal consideration, especially in the lede of an article. Repeating this over and over will not get you the changes your looking for. Nigelj, there are no sources that support such a change, the only ones that do are taken out of context or are discussing something completely different. There is no scholarly dispute about whether Buddhism is not a religion, the only minor "dispute" that exists are the same disputes about every single other religion, and that's per Dorje108's own sources. - SudoGhost 02:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that this discussion is starting to turn into a big circle. We're all discussing the same thing and there's a clear divide between people who think it's a religion and those who don't. It's not fair to say that no one has provided any source that it isn't and if that really isn't enough then simple google "Is buddhism a religion". There is clearly a lot of debate over this and to summarise, Buddhism is a religion but not in the usual sense, believers in buddhism do not believe in a higher power and they don't worship them. If you ask the common man on the street is buddhism like christianity the answer is no. There needs to be a descision made about the opening sentence. Its not right to say it's a religion because it's misleading. Do have a section about how it's heavily debated and state that it can be classed as a religion due to the following reasons stated above and similarly it can be argued that it is not.

Although dictionaries define it as a religion, they do not have a full page all about it, they simply have a few lines to summarise it and so obviously it's impractical to write that it's debated about whether or not its a religion but this is Wikipedia and we have the space to write about this debate. I just don't think that with this much controversy it should be so clearly defined in the opening sentence. Can people please reply to this with an open mind so that we can come to a conclusion. Sephers (talk) 23:25, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Note that just because there are some sources that disagree, does not mean there is any serious debate about the matter among scholars. Again, the use of terms like "usual sense" implies that the Christian notion of religion is the "usual sense," which is not an assumption that should be made for English Wikipedia. English Wikipedia readers are not all westerners who take Christianity as their starting point. English Wikipedia is not necessarily U.S. Wikipedia, in which English articles assume a grounding in western culture. Note that Buddhism and Hinduism share many of the same kinds of beings, and even cosmology. Like Hinduism, Buddhism squarely fits into the rubric of Dharmic religions, which are religions, but religions that are not very similar to Christianity. Tengu800 12:25, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Definitions for religion

This is from a google search, in the order the definitions appeared in google:

First entry:[6]

re·li·gion/riˈlijən/

Noun:

The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Synonyms: faith - belief - creed - denomination

Second entry dictonary.com

re·li·gion

  :: [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Third entry: the wikipedia article - religion

Fourth entry:Webster's dictionary

1.

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2.

a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

It appears the the most common definitions define religion as "belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods." --- 19:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC) Dorje108 (talk) 19:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Response by Joshua Jonathan. That's three dictionary-definitions, and a link to a Wikipedia article. The article gives definitions by various respected western scholars. I find Clifford Geertz interesting:

[A] system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic. Geertz, 1993, "Religion as a cultural system".

Moojan Momen (not in the Wiki-article) gives an apparently dimilar, but slightly less neutral "definition":

Religion, as a human phenomenon, is founded on the basis of what is described as being the experience of the 'holy' or the 'sacred'. Momen, "Understanding religion", 2009, p. 21

Note that this reminds of Rudolf Otto's Das Heilig, who in turn was inspired by William James, who in his turn was inspired by Friedrich Schleiermacher (Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link)). So, I still think that "religion" is about more than gods and supernatural beings, but that the connection with "the sacred" is also a biased western understanding, saveguarding religion from western science.(Sharf 1995-B). Following Geertz, Buddhism could also be called a "religion". Which, by the way, does not preclude the possibility of defining Buddhism as a set of rules & insight, or another definition without connotations to gods and supernatural realities. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion for revised lead

Here's a suggestion for revising the lead, based on the discussions above. (This is obviously not perfect, but it hits the main points.)

"Buddhism is a collection of traditions, beliefs, and practices based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the Buddha (meaning "the awakened one" in Sanskrit and Pāli). The Buddha is recognized by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who presented a system of training in conduct, meditation, and understanding that constitutes a path leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha). The Buddha is believed to have lived and taught on the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE. In modern times, Buddhism has been variously described as a religion, a "nontheistic religion", a philosophy, a science of mind, or a way of life."

Second attempt:

1. Buddhism is a collection of traditions, beliefs, and practices based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is commonly known as the Buddha (meaning "the awakened one" in Sanskrit and Pāli). The Buddha is recognized by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who presented a system of training in conduct, meditation, and understanding that constitutes a path leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha). The Buddha is believed to have lived and taught on the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent some time between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE.

2. According to the Buddhist tradition, the Buddha taught that the cause suffering (dukkha) is ignorance (avidyā) of the true nature of the self and phenomena, and that this ignorance leads to taṇhā (an unquenchable thirst, craving, or desire) to hold onto pleasurable experiences and to be separated from painful or unpleasant experiences. The Buddha also taught that the causes of suffering can be overcome by following a path that eliminates ignorance (avidya) through developing a correct insight into the true nature of the self and phenomena--this insight is based on understanding and seeing the interdependent nature of all things (dependent origination; Sanskrit: pratītyasamutpāda). Thus, according to tradition, it is possible for anyone to completely eliminate suffering and thereby attain the highest happiness, nirvāņa (nirvana).

3. In modern times, Buddhism has been variously described as a religion, a philosophy, a science of mind, or a way of life. While Buddhism is commonly referred to as a religion, modern scholars and Buddhist teachers point out that while Buddhism has key similarities with the other major world religions, it also has key differences. Similarities include the importance of faith and devotion, and the use of prayer and rituals. However, Buddhism differs from the other major religions in that: Buddhism does not involve belief in a creator God who has control over human destiny, nor does it seek to define itself by reference to a creed. The Buddhist tradition emphasizes a path leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha), and the Buddhist teachings suggest that preoccupation with certain beliefs—such as belief in a "creator god", "an eternal soul", or theories about the origin of the universe—in fact hinder our progress along the path rather than helping it. --- Dorje108 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

NOTE: The sources for the points on Buddhism and religion are here: User:Dorje108/Buddhism and religion sources --- Dorje108 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

NOTE2: I've just swapped the order of paragraphs 2 and 3, and added the numbers to help discuss this revision in case we get a discussion going. --- Dorje108 (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - The lede is supposed to reflect what the majority of reliable sources use, and Buddhism is most commonly referred to as a religion. That some people do not believe it fits into their definition of religion is an interesting aside that is appropriate for its own section, but doesn't belong in the lede. - SudoGhost 20:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

  I think, at the very least, that all the work Dorje108 has presented here shows that there is certainly a degree of controversy about the matter in the relevant citable literature. With that in mind, I don't see how, with regard to WP:NPOV, we can begin the article by, in Wikipedia's own voice, coming down unequivocally on one side of such a debate within the first few words. That is completely unsupportable in any matter that can be and has been debated in the academic and other serious literature. On the other hand, I do agree that the main place for presenting the debate is in the body of the article, not the lede. For example, I would suggest that something like Dorje's paragraph 3 above could be worked into the existing section with full references, and then summarised briefly somewhere within the lede. The first clause of the first sentence is not the place, but then neither is a subsection of the last section in the article. I suggest coverage of the debate be expanded, and moved up the article a bit. --Nigelj (talk) 21:11, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment Hi SudhoGhost and Nigelj. Thanks for taking a look at this.

• SudoGhost, can you cite any sources from the past 10 or 20 years to support your position? Keep in mind that 10 or 15 years ago, it was very common to refer to the Dalai Lama as the "god-king" of Tibet. The point is that older sources may be more like to refer to Buddhism as a religion, but the sources that I am looking at, which tend to be from the past 10 or 20 years, are ambivalent on the matter.
• The majority of definitions of religion still assert that the primary definition entails "belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power." (See my comments on this above.) I think this is why some Buddhists have difficulty with the assertion that Buddhism is a religion.
• Nigelj, thanks for your comments. Do you think paragraphs 1 and 2 above are a good start for the article? --- Dorje108 (talk) 22:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Absolutely.[7][8][9][10][11]. As per the criteria of WP:LEDE, Buddhism is defined as a religion in mainstream reliable sources. That some sources question this by giving ever-narrower definitions of what a "religion" does not change this, especially when many of them phrase it as a question in order to stimulate discussion about the importance of certain aspects of Buddhism, not to claim that it is not one. Is it WP:UNDUE to assume that we should give equal consideration to a speculative minority description. There are reliable sources that claim Christianity is not a religion at all, or that is it a cult instead, that does not mean the relevant article's lede should give equal consideration to this viewpoint. - SudoGhost 22:45, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: Thank you SudoGhost. But with the exception of the Encyclopedia Britannica, which actually describes Buddhism as a "religion and philosophy", these sources don't seem to be the most reliable of sources. Aren't we supposed to take into account things like the author and publisher of sources, and opportunity for peer review. Regarding your sources:
  • PBS - I like PBS, but who is the author of this article? Aren't Buddhists like the Dalai Lama, and scholars like Rupert Gethin better sources according to the WP guidelines? (Because they are known experts in their field, and they are published by major publishers.)
  • University of Wyoming website - another anonymously written web article. Same points as above.
  • Columbia University, East Asian Curriculum Project This article contains the following acknowledgement: Acknowledgment: The author of this article is Lise F. Vail. The article is adapted from FOCUS, issue on Asian Religions, fall 1982, published by The Asia Society, 725 Park Avenue, New York, NY 10021. Reprinted by permission. It's a recycled article from 30 years ago.
  • Japanese Temple Buddhism: Worldliness in a Religion of Renunciation (Topics in Contemporary Buddhism) - this is a book by an assistant professor in the Department of Comparative Religion at Western Michigan University. It's a legitimate source, but why give this more weight than the sources that I have cited?

• Because that source reflects scholarly consensus. Even when we go by your arbritary "only sources from the last 10 years of a ~2500 year old subject count" method, it is still overwhelmingly referred to as a religion by most reliable sources. Yes, there are sources that, for various reasons, question the religious label, but the fact that a dictionary defines something in a way that makes an editor question is no basis for rewriting the lede of the article. Buddhists teachers raising the question of "Is Buddhism a religion?" in order to encourage discussion and contemplation on the meaning of certain things is no basis for rewriting the lede of the article. That sources can be quoted saying Buddhism "isn't just a religion" or that it is "nontheistic" is no basis for rewriting the lede of the article. None of the sources presented, when taken into the context of the surrounding work, say that Buddhism is not a religion. - SudoGhost 01:26, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hi SudoGhost, thanks again for your comments. A few more questions:
  • How do you decide what the scholarly consensus is? In my references, I've included Rupert Gethin, Paul Williams, Damien Keown, B. Allan Wallace, and Thomas Merton. Don't these folks count?
  • I think its safe to say that Western "scholarship" on Buddhism is roughly 100 years old. I think most people would agree that much of the earlier scholarship contained misunderstandings of Buddhism. I've asked for more recent sources because I believe the scholarly understanding of Buddhism has improved dramatically over the last 20 or 30 years, since actual Buddhist teachers began teaching in the West, so more recent writing would reflect more the current consensus.
  • You've mentioned twice now that Buddhist teachers are raising these questions "in order to encourage discussion and contemplation on the meaning of certain things." That's clearly a matter of opinion. I think these points are actually fundamental to the whole Buddhist path.
• Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 02:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

• I must have missed the "Paul Williams says Buddhism isn't a religion" part, because I'm not seeing it. More importantly, while it may be true that Western works on Buddhism are around 100 years old, only focusing on modern Western ideas about an Eastern concept is a systemic bias. When you look at the context in which your quotes are taken, it paints a different picture. Take for example what you quoted concerning Thomas Merton on Zen. That does not come anywhere close to supporting a claim that Buddhism is not a religion, but (quoting the book) rather that "to regard Zen as merely and exclusively as Zen Buddhism is to falsify it and, no doubt, to betray the fact that one has no understanding of it whatever." The passage you quoted was saying that "Zen" is not "Zen Buddhism" and that the concept of "Zen" is not merely a religious one, not that Buddhism is not a religion. If there is a source you've presented that says Buddhism is not a religion, then please by all means highlight it because the closest I'm seeing is "it may not be a religion, depending on who you ask and what you're asking", and as the Thomas Merton book you quoted points out, that's nothing unique to Buddhism. - SudoGhost 02:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Hi SudoGhost. A few points:

• I am not denying that Buddhism is a religion, nor am I asserting that it is a religion. I am suggesting that this article will be better served if we formulate an opening sentence that does not categorically state that "Buddhism is a religion." I make this suggestion for the following reasons: 1) Many people associate the term "religion" with some sort of supernatural power. I am not agreeing with this point of view, nor am I trying to define what a religion is. I am simply saying that this is a common perception. Do you at least concede that this is a common perception? 2) Many people view "religion" in general with suspicion and distrust, associating it with superstition, etc., no matter how you define it. Again, this is not my point of view, but it is a common perception. 3) As several scholars have shown, it is perfectly possible to describe Buddhism without defining it as a religion. 4) Therefore, why not formulate an opening sentence that will not confuse, offend, or turn off a large number of people. (Roughly 10,000 people per day are visiting this page; if 20% of those people have a different concept of what religion is than you do, that's a lot of confusion.)
• Regarding Paul Williams - I think he offered a good description of Buddhism without defining it as a religion: " the system of practices, understandings ('beliefs'), experiences, visions, and so on undergone and expressed at any one time and down the ages which derive from, or claim to derive from, a Buddha". He also went on to refer to Buddhism as a religion, but he provided the above description first, and he was careful to explain what he meant by a religion.
• Rupert Gethin and Damian Keown are both quite clear that it depends how you define religion. They both demonstrated that you can describe Buddhism very will without insisting that "Buddhism is a religion."
• Regarding you point on bias: I am being told that the reason we must define Buddhism as a religion is because of "scholarly consensus and common usage." But when I point out that there is no such scholarly consensus, that contemporary scholars have different points of view on the matter, that some really good scholars are clearly stating that it "depends on your definition of religion", then I am accused of bias! I've tried to point out that the whole concept of categorizing beliefs into religion vs. philosophy vs. science is purely a Western hangup. So from my point of view, the bias is when you insist on applying this wholly Western concept to an Eastern belief system. From the Buddhist point of view, the dharma is the truth; it doesn't need a label. So why apply to it a Western label that has negative connotations for many Westerners?

I hope these points are clear. I'll try to respond to Joshua's points tomorrow or the next day. I don't have much time to focus on this during the week. Best regards, Dorje108 (talk) 01:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• The claim that there is no such scholarly consensus isn't reflected by the sources you gave or the sources in circulation. Again, one of the sources you yourself provides answers your own comment. There are sources that can be provided that question the "religion" descriptor of Buddhism, and none of them contest this descriptor wholesale, but rather say "it depends". As one of the sources you provided explains, this is not unique to this religion, each religion has this questioning of what religion is and how their religion fits into that definition. That does not mean it is not a religion, and does not mean the lede needs to be reworded. Yes, you can describe any religion without using that word, but that's what the article proper is for, not the lede sentence, which is supposed to be as concise a descriptor of the article's subject as reasonbly possible. The article proper then expands and explains. It seems the "negative conntations" issue is why you're seeking to remove the "religion" descriptor, but per Wikipedia policy "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." This is especially true considering that none of the sources provided come anywhere close to claiming that "religion" isn't a valid descriptor. - SudoGhost 02:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Comment by Joshua Jonathan Some more [12] [13] [14] How about changing "religion" to "non-theistic religion" and adding a footnote to explain the subtilities of definition? Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:01, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm still not really sure why we are having this debate here. How many readers, really, are going to read the first sentence and then take away from this article that Buddhism believes in and worships an omnipotent judge? I don't see any need to modify the lede. Buddhism is a religion. (20040302 (talk) 08:47, 22 October 2012 (UTC))

I was having a debate with some friends about whether or not Buddhism is a religion, the first thing we did was load up wikipedia and read the first sentence. This is the reason I joined in on this debate and I believe we should be changing the first sentence so it does not say it is a religion but state somewhere that it is heavily debated and in some ways Buddhism could be defined as a religion but not in the usual sense of religion. The first sentence is very important. Sephers (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

It is not "heavily debated"; the overwhelming majority of reliable sources describe Buddhism as a religion. It would be against Wikipedia policy to avoid using this terminology just because some editors either don't feel it fits in with "the usual definition" or because they believe that the word has negative connotations. Not a single reliable source has been presented that makes a claim that Buddhism is not a religion, and would be a very minor viewpoint anyways, such a minor viewpoint is not cause to change the lede sentence of the article. - SudoGhost 23:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

• Interesting quote here from Robert Thurman, Professor of Indo-Tibetan Studies and Chair of the Department of Religion at Columbia University: "Buddhism is thought of as a world religion. But Buddhism is only 1/3 religion."[15]
• Here is another quote from Thurman, Mark Epstein, and Sharon Salzburg: "Buddhism is not meditation. Buddhism is not a theory. Buddhism is not a set of rules, actions or ethics. Buddhism is a process of education of the mind and heart through learning, study, meditation and loving, virtuous action."[16] --- Dorje108 (talk) 00:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

• I don't think that Robert Thurman saying that "Buddhism is more than religion" warrants removing it from the lede. Saying that it is "only 1/3 religion" is saying that it is religion...and then some. Reading the entire thing just reinforces that Thurman was in no way suggesting that Buddhism is not a religion. The second thing you quoted says nothing about the subject of Buddhism being a religion. - SudoGhost 14:35, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Bernard Faure, in "Unmasking Buddhism", has a chapter on the idea that "Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion" (pp.27-34). He sees this as a narrow western interpretation, and argues to use Durkheim's definition of religion (UB p.33): "a system of beliefs and practices relating to the sacred which produces social behaviors and unites all the individuals who adhere to it within the same community". So, that's a clear choice: Buddhism is a religion - if your definition of religion is broader than belief in and worship of a God. I'm pro "Buddhism is a religion". Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:47, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 November 2012

Hi, as far as i have been taught Buddism is not a "Religion" as such since it is not "a system of faith and worship owing any allegiance to a supernatural being." Jörgen Grette (talk) 10:32, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

 Not done - See the discussion above concerning this. - SudoGhost 16:28, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Religion and Philosophy encompassing a variety.....

Why not return to what has stood the test of time for many years (as far as i recall since the last huge discussion on this issue in 2008 or 2009):

"Buddhism (Pali/Sanskrit: बौद्ध धर्म Buddha Dharma) is a religion and philosophy encompassing a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices, largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as the Buddha (Pāli/Sanskrit "the awakened one")."

What some of us (myself included) would like to see is a representation of the fact that Buddhism is not just plain religion (at least not in the sense that english speaking, mostly christian audiences have in mind). It is different from our usual concept of religion (not necessarily the scholarly one as your discussion has proven). And it is more than just religion.

To soften the rather definitive/conclusive nature of the current wording, the revert will:

1. Add "and philosophy". (like in the Encyclopedia Britannica)

2. Remove "indigenous to the indian subcontinent". We do not need the reference here as we already have it in the next sentence (and twice would definitely be too much). By removing this part the following part about the variety of traditions, beliefs, practices moves closer and broadens/softens the definition as well.

3. change "that encompasses" to "encompassing". From my point of view (as a non native speaker) this sound more fitting. Has the same effect as the above: brings the "varieties" closer (makes them an integral part of the definition rather than a supplement)

Andi 3ö (talk) 01:11, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Are there major religious traditions that have no philosophical component? Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, & Islam are all uncontroversially called religions and all include significant philosophical traditions. Why is it necessary to say something different about Buddhism? In the West, Buddhist philosophy gets more attention than Buddhist cultic and cultural practices but I can't imagine a reliable source claiming that philosophy is more important to Buddhism than it is to (say) the Christian tradition. If anything, Western discussions of Buddhism tend to give undue weight to philosophic tradition. To call Buddhism not a religion but 'a religion and a philosophy' is to say that Buddhism is something more- something that Christianity, etc., isn't. What justification for such a claim could we offer? --Spasemunki (talk) 08:48, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Just briefly (got little time for wikipedia right now): You are most probably right about philosophy being a part of all major religions or at least something similar to what we nowadays classify as philosophy. After all, at least in our western, christian context, (secular) philosophy and even all other sciences like astronomy, cosmology, physics, biology etc., not to mention social sciences only began their emancipation from christian beliefs and dogma in fairly modern times (Copernicus/Galllilei, Darwin, only to mention the most prominent "revolutionaries" in that respect). Nevertheless, IMHO this argument is somewhat missing the point of our discussion. The question is not so much: "Is philosophy more important in Buddhism than it is in other religions?", or even "Is Buddhism a religion?" (which it certainly can be called), but: "Does qualifying Buddhism categorically and exclusively as a "religion" (in the lead sentence!) do the topic justice. As i already stated above, and others did more elaborately, the term "religion" evokes a lot of problematic associations which could lead to substantial misconceptions: (symplifying and generalizing a bit) Buddhism has no creator god, no all-powerfull god, no god to pray to, no divine salvation, instead there is a non-personal law of cause and effect, there is no unquestionable dogma, no central dogmatic authority, no active proselytizing, blind faith in scriptures or spiritual authorities is (sometimes more, sometimes less actively) discouraged, personal experience and reason is stressed a lot... I am no expert on religions in general, but i do know what the people i know and speak to think, when they hear the word "religion". This is in many aspects quite significantly different from what Buddhism is about! That pretty much is my point and this is what i'd somehow like to see represented in the wording of the lead.

Adding "philosophy" after "religion" is just one possibility to achieve the goal of softening the rather definitive/conclusive nature of the current wording. Avoiding the term religion would be another alternative. We had that in the lead for quite some time as well: "Buddhism is a family of beliefs and practices...." The term "family" by the way was very important to some editors at that time of the major restructuring/rewrite of the article in 2008/2009 because it represents the fact that Buddhism is immensely diverse (e.g. when compared to the abrahamic religions), so much so, that apparently some scholars pretty much deny the existence of anything resembling a "common core" of Buddhism (pretty huge discussion back then - can read it up in the archive, e.g. here ;)) Andi 3ö (talk) 03:20, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

uups...i just read the archives myself :) the (temporary) consensus of that time did indeed (of course, how could i forget!) contain the word religion: Heres the full first two sentences from December 2008:

::Buddhism is a family of beliefs and practices considered by most to be a religion. Buddhism is based on the teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, commonly known as "The Buddha" (the Awakened One), who lived in the northeastern region of the Indian subcontinent and likely died around 400 BCE.

Also, reading the past discussions reminded me of three things: 1. I was quite satisfied with that solution 2. My satisfaction mainly stemmed from the fact that the disuccions around that subject - which the archives show, regularly pops up again and again and again...- miraculously stopped for a month or two and 3. There are way more important subjects to discuss and a lot more than the very first sentence to improve in this article ;) Andi 3ö (talk) 04:59, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Buddhists in the world

How come the estimates show 350 - 500 million? Our schoolbooks from 2007 tells us there is 550 million. And there is approximately 350 - 660 million Buddhists in China today alone. I remember two years ago Wikipedia estimated that there was 1.6 billion Buddhists in the world. Muslims were approximately 1.2 billion and Christians were 2 billion. What happened? Have a bunch of Christian fanatics from Texas discovered Wikipedia and started editing? The sources are also very biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Puttingfacts (talk • contribs) 10:04, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that verify what you're saying? We can't change the article based on what you vaguely remember from years ago; that would be original research. It doesn't help to say "The sources are also very biased" without explaining what you mean by that. Without elaboration, that comment doesn't help at all; the article can't be improved without knowing what's wrong, if there indeed is something wrong in that regard. How are they biased? What reliable sources can you provide that show that the sources in the article have a demonstrable bias? - SudoGhost 10:42, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the user already indicated they were using a textbook (certainly an acceptable reliable source) published in 2007. The difficulty is that methodologies for deciding who counts as a Buddhist are less straightforward than methods for counting Christians and Muslims. A major sticking point is how China (which is officially Communist, culturally multi-traditional, and includes Buddhism as one of several major traditions) should be counted- a decision on this front alone would change the number by hundreds of millions. In the interest of keeping a long technical discussion out of the opening paragraph of the article, the current estimate of 300-500 million was included as a lower bound. The 'Demographics' section further down in the article discusses this in detail and includes the estimates for China that would push the number over one billion. --Spasemunki (talk) 11:16, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The consensus at WP:RSN seems to e that textbooks are not reliable sources just because they are textbooks, it seems that not all textbooks are created equally, especially when a textbook is at odds with other sources. It's also impossible to determine whether it is a reliable source without knowing what textbook it is. I'm not saying the number is right or wrong, but "I read it in a textbook" isn't cause to change the article without more information. - SudoGhost 15:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

More scholarly perspectives on Buddhism as a religion

I've added two more scholars who have meaningful things to say about the question of Buddhism being a religion. I've included the thoughts of Martin Southwold and Ilkka Pyysiäinen: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilkka_Pyysiäinen.Scifilover386 (talk) 00:47, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dugong5582 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The individual who added these has been blocked as a sockpuppet, but I think the section does need to be discussed. The Is Buddhism a religion? section seems to be nothing more than a WP:QUOTEFARM, and certainly need to be trimmed down and put into Wikipedia prose, as opposed to just a collection of quotes that seem to be pushing the edge of what WP:NFCC allows. - SudoGhost 02:49, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It asks for a discussion on religion as a (western) construction, and the problems of essentialism. Richard King, Orientalism and religion, does have a few remarks on this topic. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The Buddha & His Disciples

The Lord Buddha was born in 623 BC in the sacred area of Lumbini located in the Terai plains of southern Nepal, testified by the inscription on the pillar erected by the Mauryan Emperor Asoka in 249 BC. Lumbini is one of the holiest places of one of the world's great religions, and its remains contain important evidence about the nature of Buddhist pilgrimage centres from as early as the 3rd century BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.187.16.2 (talk) 07:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Religion

Rather than having the first sentence stating Buddhism as a religion, the most accurate and honest thing to do would be to state that its nature as a religion is open ended and the subject of much debate. This is the truest thing to say.

if any faith based system is a religion does that make astrology a religion?

we should try to be as accurate and descriptive of the nature of the situation as possible IMO.

please consider, just a suggestion