Talk:Battle of Tours

Old talk

Fri August 31st, 2007 I am reading Ivan Gobry ‘s book : Charlemagne, fondateur de l’Europe (Edition du Rocher) On page 22, Ivan reports: Cette memorable journee fut celled u Samedi 17 Octobre 733. La date traditionnelle de 732, apprise par tous les ecoliers ne figure que dans la Chronique de Moissac, redigee au IX siecle. Les autres auteurs indique celle de 733. Les historiens arabes celle de l’an 115 de l’hegire qui est l’equivalent de 733. He insiste that Charles could not have enrolled his army a year earlier and that Charles was reported to strategically waited for the “Sarrasins” to waste their power and ambition enjoying their plunder and the women they raped. PierreC9

Ivan is a religious historian, and a sub-par one at that. The Saracens(note) would have easily established motive dominance and prime positioning had Martel followed that time table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.240.4 (talk) 11:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the requirements of the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of November 16, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAN.

Although the article currently has a good number of inline citations, several sections throughout the article are lacking sources, including multiple quotes. Go through the article and add an inline citation for any statement that a reader may question over its verifiability. If you can find sources online, feel free to include those, although book sources are always great, which this article uses a lot of. However, the rest of the article looks fine considering meeting the broad, NPOV, and image requirements. I have listed the many statements that should be sourced, and if sources are added, please do consider renominating the article again.

Need inline citations:

1. "According to one unidentified Arab, "That army went through all places like a desolating storm.""
2. "The Umayyad horsemen then utterly devastated that portion of Gaul, their own histories saying the "faithful pierced through the mountains, trampled over rough and level ground, plundered far into the country of the Franks, and smote all with the sword, insomuch that when Eudo came to battle with them at the River Garonne, he fled.""
3. "As Herman de Carinthia wrote in one of his translations of a history of al-Andalus, Eudes managed a highly successful encircling envelopment which took the attackers totally by surprise — and the result was a chaotic slaughter of the Muslim forces."
4. "According to the Arabian sources the Franks drew up in a large square, with the trees and upward slope to break any cavalry charge."
5. "Most historians through the centuries have believed the Franks were badly outnumbered at the onset of battle by at least 2-1"
6. "But Gibbon believes, as do most pre and modern historians, that Martel had made the best of a bad situation."
7. "The battle was still in flux when Frankish histories claim that a rumor went through the Umayyad army that Frankish scouts threatened the booty that they had taken from Bordeaux."
8. "According to Muslim accounts of the battle, in the midst of the fighting on the second day (Frankish accounts have the battle lasting one day only), scouts from the Franks sent by Charles began to raid the camp and supply train (including slaves and other plunder)."
9. ""All the host fled before the enemy", candidly wrote one Arabic source, "and many died in the flight"."
10. "Gibbon makes the point that he did not move at once against Charles Martel, was surprised by him at Tours as Martel had marched over the mountains avoiding the roads to surprise the Muslim invaders, and thus the wily Martel selected the time and place they would collide:"
11. "According to Creasy, the Muslims' best strategic choice would have been to simply decline battle, depart with their loot, garrisoning the captured towns in southern Gaul, and return when they could force Martel to a battleground more to their liking, one that maximized the huge advantage they had in their mailed and armored horsemen."
12. "Martel believed it was vital to confine the Umayyad forces to Iberia and deny them any foothold in Gaul, a view many historians share."
13. "Santosuosso notes that 'Uqba b. Al-Hajjaj converted about 2,000 Christians he captured over his career."
14. "Western historians beginning with the Mozarabic Chronicle of 754 stressed the macrohistorical impact of the battle, as did the Continuations of Fredegar."
15. "The first camp essentially agrees with Gibbon, and the other argues that the Battle has been massively overstated—turned from a raid in force to an invasion, and from a mere annoyance to the Caliph to a shattering defeat that helped end the Islamic Expansion Era."
16. "However, Creasy has claimed: "The enduring importance of the battle of Tours in the eyes of the Moslems is attested not only by the expressions of 'the deadly battle' and 'the disgraceful overthrow' which their writers constantly employ when referring to it, but also by the fact that no more serious attempts at conquest beyond the Pyrenees were made by the Saracens.""
17. "has argued that the military defeat at Tours was amongst one of the failures that contributed to the decline of the Umayyad caliphate: "Stretching from Morocco to China, the Umayyad caliphate based its expansion and success on the doctrine of jihad--armed struggle to claim the whole earth for God's rule, a struggle that had brought much material success for a century but suddenly ground to a halt followed by the collapse of the ruling Umayyad dynasty in 750 CE. The End of the Jihad State demonstrates for the first time that the cause of this collapse came not just from internal conflict, as has been claimed, but from a number of external and concurrent factors that exceeded the caliphate's capacity to respond. These external factors began with crushing military defeats at Byzantium, Toulouse and Tours, which led to the Great Berber Revolt of 740 in Iberia and Northern Africa.""
18. "Watson adds, "After examining the motives for the Muslim drive north of the Pyrenees, one can attach a macrohistorical significance to the encounter between the Franks and Andalusi Muslims at Tours-Poitiers, especially when one considers the attention paid to the Franks in Arabic literature and the successful expansion of Muslims elsewhere in the medieval period.""
19. "The mozarabic chronicle a Contemporary source which describes the battle in greater detail than any other Latin or Arabic source states that the franks outnumbered the muslims and were better equipped and that agrees with muslim account and common sense. "

Links/page numbers that should be converted to inline citations:

1. "Essentially, many modern Muslim scholars argue that the first Caliphate was a jihadist state which could not withstand an end to its constant expansion. [3]" Convert the link to an inline citation.
2. "The great German military historian Hans Delbruck said of this battle "there was no more important battle in the history of the world." (The Barbarian Invasions, page 441.)"
3. "Louis Gustave and Chalres Strauss in Moslem and Frank; or, Charles Martel and the rescue of Europe said "The victory gained was decisive and final, The torrent of Arab conquest was rolled back and Europe was rescued from the threatened yoke of the Saracens." (page 122)"
4. "Antonio Santosuosso points out in his book Barbarians, Marauders and Infidels: The Ways of Medieval Warfare, on p. 126 "they (the Muslims) called the battle's location, the road between Poitiers and Tours, "the pavement of Martyrs.""
5. "Historian Robert Payne on page 142 in "The History of Islam" said "The more powerful Muslims and the spread of Islam were knocking on Europe’s door. And the spread of Islam was stopped along the road between the towns of Tours and Poitiers, France, with just its head in Europe.""

Again, if you address these issues and check the article against the rest of the GA criteria, consider renominating the article at WP:GAN and let me know and I'll look it over again (so you can avoid the current month+ backlog). If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article's history to reflect this review. Regards, --Nehrams2020 10:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Geography?

Perhaps there should be details as to where the battle took place, in a separate section and not having to scatter landscape information throughout the article? --Sunsetsunrise (talk) 01:35, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

In the "background" section...the first paragraph. It is definitely not objective, but is there a reference for it? the_ed17 18:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That works. =D the_ed17 04:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Repetitions

This article needs some cleaning up. How many times is it necessary to repeat that the Franks held the high ground, that they had no cavalry, that the Umayyad had not scouted the North, etc.? Eulalie Écho (talk) 18:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction

Was reading through the article and noticed that at one point it says that one of Charles biggest advantages was his professional army, then a few paragraphs it states that he had no standing army. This seems a bit contradictory to me, does anyone else think so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.91.9.215 (talk) 07:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. A professional army as opposed, or at least evolution of, to a levy was a Martel devolpment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.56.240.4 (talk) 11:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess both notations professional army and not standing army are off realism. To my opinion, Charles Martel was one among the various feudal lords of the 'French' region, who managed to persuade the rest of the lords that the muslims were an actual threat, so they all joined their armies - consisted of farmers - to opose the muslims under the rule of Charles Martel (grantfather of Charlomagne). Although the historical time was that of dark ages, army officers and generals, were practicing the phalanx (column) style of combat, which they inherited from the Romans who inherited it from the Greeks. The general idea (which is the western style of combat) is not to brake your rank and the whole column to fight as one man. This way, the enemy cannot overwhelm you. The Eastern (Asian) style of combat, depends on the bravery of every single soldier who attacks the enemy based on his courage. Yet couragious, but without any sufficient plan, the muslims were doomed to lose the fight. The reason they expanded so far until then, was because no serious army opposed them till then. So, all Charles Martell had to do, was to train the farmers to keep their lines and stay cool while the muslim horsemen were attacking. Throughout history, the Europeans have lost some battles of course, but in general, everytime they fight against Asians, or Africans, or the American Aztecs etc, they win, because of their combat style. Stated by redflaw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.73.252.106 (talk) 11:20, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

First to Fight?

"Charles's grandson, Charlemagne, became the first Christian ruler to begin what would be called the Reconquista from Europe."

I think Pelayo and his heirs get the honors in that area. Cranston Lamont (talk) 20:30, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Schnorr von Carolsfeld fresco

The illustration at right, used in the text, has been provided with a spurious date in Internet links, which would make it an illustration of this event. I have corrected its caption and repositioned it where it illustrates Christian and European views (in 1822-27) of Saracen invaders, which have colored the traditional historical assessment of the battle of Tours.--Wetman (talk) 23:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

== Vouneuil sur Vienne == (intelligible)

I was there at the site yesterday. To name V s V is not correct. It is also missleading. I drove to V s V and had to find out after searching a lot and asking a french man (imagine, how difficult that is, since I hardly speak french) that the monument is actually north-west of Montgame.

This map is approximatelly correct:

http://www.maplandia.com/france/poitou-charentes/vienne/chatellerault/moussais-la-bataille/

Moussais la Battaile is a small place with 3-4 old hauses, which are ruined, but there are people living. The houses of course are not from the time of the battle. The actual battle was between the monument and th M la B of today. M la B is approximatelly the resting place of Abdul Rahman.

--83.200.42.105 (talk) 22:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Gibbon's Gang

Is it really necessary for Gibbon's to have his opinion 'validated' by saying basically Gibbons (and every historian that ever lived and mattered) said that...? Soxwon (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

• • • The context of this comment is unsourced: 'Modern historians, by contrast, are divided over the battle's importance, and considerable disagreement exists as to whether or not the victory was responsible — as Gibbon and his generation of historians claimed, and which is echoed by many modern historians — for saving Christianity and halting the conquest of Europe by Islam.' Can we get a cite?Foamking (talk) 04:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

(see Postmodernism)

"(see Postmodernism)" starts a paragraph. This needs elaboration or it needs to be removed. patsw (talk) 17:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Relative size of forces

The mozarabic chronicle a Contemporary source which describes the battle in greater detail than any other Latin or Arabic source states that the franks outnumbered the muslims and were better equiped and that agrees with muslim account and common sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaid almasri (talk • contribs) 20:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

• I assume the Mozarabic Chronicle you're referring to is also known as the Chronicle of 754. In that case, could you cite which part of the Chronicle verifies the claim that the number of Frankish forces was larger than the Caliphate's? Otherwise, without a specific citation to a translation of the Chronicle or some secondary source commenting on it, I don't think the previous number of about 30,000 for Frankish forces -- which was cited (albeit incompletely) from to Davis -- should be replaced. Emw2012 (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

"In the blink of an eye, they annihilated the Arabs with the sword. The people of Austrasia, greater in number of soldiers and formidably armed, killed the king, Abd ar-Rahman" - Wolf (trans), Chronicle of 754, p. 145 (Zaid almasri (talk) 22:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC))

you can check all the previous campaigns of the caliphate in that region and you will find that the armies were very small in size so how come they suddenly became that large despite several defeats. Abdul Rahman also left a large portion of the army to garrison the captured cities.(Zaid almasri (talk) 22:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC))

it is also a good idea to notice that the size of the army that crossed from north africa and conquered iberia (in 711) only 21 year before the battle of tours were 7000 men only(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ibn_Ziyad) , so the claims by some sources that the caliphate army were in hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands is completely unrealistic. (Zaid almasri (talk) 22:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaid almasri (talk • contribs) 22:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

While some of the higher-end figures might be a bit farfetched, are you actually suggesting that in over twenty years, the Muslim army in Iberia could not have grown into the tens of thousands? I think that you may want to consider the possibility that new troops from the rest of the then-still-expanding Muslim world may have arrived to help conquer Europe in the name of Islam. And what about Iberian natives who converted to Islam? Are you suggesting that none of them might have joined the Caliphate army?--L1A1 FAL (talk) 21:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Great! Thanks for the citation. Just to make sure, you're using Baxter's Conquerors and Chroniclers of Early Medieval Spain, right? There's a copy available on Google books that looks like it could be what you're citing, but page 145 isn't part of the online preview. And sorry for reverting your earlier edit -- it just spiked my suspicion that a new user changed an important fact and removed a citation. BTW, you can sign your posts by adding four tildes (~~~~) to the end of your posts. Emw2012 (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• Yes it is Baxter's Conquerors and Chroniclers of Early Medieval Spain, also page 145 is part of the online preview(last page of the preview actually),and the origional wikipedia article itself uses the same citation. (Zaid almasri (talk) 17:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC))

safety of the phalanx

There's a great deal of discussion of the army about Martel, and rightfully so. Were the women and children protected by the surrounding troops? Sometimes women get themselves in to the middle of battles, with delusional thought of turning attention away and averting something thought childish game, only to see it was a full on attack?

Hitler quote

Removing a sourced quote from a major 20th century figure regarding the macrohistorical importance of the article subject in a section on 20th century views of its macrohistorical importance is both asinine and vandalism. "Well durr I don't think Hitler counts as a historian durr" is not a valid counterpoint. --NEMT (talk) 02:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC) To expand - the section covers "historical and macrohistorical views" in the context of military and political influence in Europe. Demonstrating how the battle shaped opinions of significant figures in contemporary and modern history should be one of the primary goals here. Dismissing anyone whose primary notability is not as a historian, despite historic significance and a background in the subject matter, is a disservice to anyone looking to gain a comprehensive knowledge of modern historical views of the article subject (i.e.: the reason most would seek out this section of the page). --NEMT (talk) 05:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Arabic historiography

In section 4.2 it says: 'Contemporary Arab and Muslim historians and chroniclers were much more interested in the second Umayyad siege of Constantinople in 718, which ended in a disastrous defeat.' There are no extant histories by 'Arab and Muslim historians' of that date, and even were there there should surely be a citation there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.63.121 (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Number of Ummayad casulties - 375,000

There is a lengthy section on the size of the armies, ranging from x to y, with figures for each side going as high as 80.000. Then, it says "Charles Martel's force lost about 1,500 while the Umayyad force was said to have suffered massive casualties of up to 375,000 men". Besides this number being completely out of proportion to the size of the army, it would mean that each Frank would have to have killed 250 men!!!!! Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

POV?

I think that this article may be having a POV issue. It seems that in the last few months, an Arab/Islamic point of view, especially in regards to the infobox, has been injected into this article, particularly now that the infobox is essentially according to "Islamic sources" with no exception. I think it would be in the article's best interests that some of these recent edits be either verified, or corrected and re-cited.--L1A1 FAL (talk) 21:13, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

• Really? Seems to me like it has a Western/Christian POV. I mean, the whole "In Muslim History" section is from a bloody Western perspective! How ridiculous is that!? Why say you're going to give the Muslim historical view on the battle when all you actually do is say what Westerners/Christians believe the Muslims think? That section needs a rewrite. 70.187.179.139 (talk) 23:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• I agree completely with concerns about the POV issue. The "according to Islamic sources" needs to be integrated with the remaining information or removed entirely. The information given seems to contradict much of the article and needlessly points to a conflicting point of view. Furthermore, many of the claims seem exorbitantly exaggerated (i.e., 400.000 Franks) or simply irrelevant; for instance, how does "withdrawal of the Umayyad army" conflict with "Decisive Frankish victory"?

  I don't see the "In Muslim history" section as particularly problematic at all. Surely, Western arabists and Oriental scholars may freely comment upon the original Muslim sources as well? By analogy, one does not have to be an antique Roman to comment on Roman historians. In fact, it'd be exceedingly discriminatory if only contemporary Muslims are allowed to comment on Islamic sources. 130.226.70.232 (talk) 18:20, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

• This blown-up infobox needs a lot of work. The numerous "according to Islamic sources" tags and all those links to the same book (why in caps?) have to be slimmed down a bit, especially since our primary sources, Merovingian or Umayyad, do not supply half this much in reliable evidence. The sections "Belligerents", "Strength", and "Casualties and losses" are cumbersome bordering on silly. I have already reconciled the first two points mentioned here, and would like to invite others to tag along. Trigaranus (talk) 10:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

• Despite all its edits, some good some not as good, this article is on the one side pumped up in content and on the other oozes Western Christian exaltation. I agree that a Western Christian view is offered as the default view and it is presented as marked or slanted when coming from Muslim or critical sources. The continuous artificial Christian/Muslim divide is also overdone, the fact is that there were many actors with different political interests, not clearly depicted here: Charles' northern Franks and his attack on independent non-Frankish Aquitaine in 731, the Basques, the Arabs, the Berbers and their tensions that ultimately spurred al-Gafhiqi´s expedition north, even the Septimanian Visigoths, strongly opposed to the Franks. On the infobox, I would delete all "according to Muslim sources", which would require, if maintained, "according to Western Christian sources" on the other side, ridiculous. Iñaki LL (talk) 07:49, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The article is clearly biased towards the Franks and the Western source-books not towards the Islamic sources ... (except the few Islamic sources used side by side with the Western sources in the info-box) all the sources used in the article are Western. Despite the fact that there are many Islamic source-books for the battle, non of them were used at all in this article. Moreover, the article uses an offensive language against Muslims (such as using the word "Saracens" instead of the word "Muslims"). While it is more objective for the picture of the info-box to be a picture of the battlefield, you have chosen to be the painting of Charles de Steuben which is a fanciful offensive painting. This painting doesn't give any reliable information about the battle itself. Instead, It gives reliable information about the delusions that governed the minds of many people during the middle ages and after.

Many western source-books (especially the primary ones) used to say that 375,000 Muslims were killed in the battle of Toulouse. Then 375,000 (also the same number!!) were killed in the battle of Tours. 375,000 + 375,000 = 750,000 !!!! --عامرالقمر (talk) 11:56, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

After Muslims had already lost three quarters of a million (according to your source-books)!!!, they got back the year after the battle of Tours and conquered the Province territory in South France. Then, led by Oqba ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Saloli, they conquered the territory of Burgundy (which was included in the kingdom of Charles Martel -the Merovingian Franks-) [the Burundians also were a main part in the Frankish army during the battle of tours]. Then they conquered Piedmont in North Italy, and the Eastern part of Aquitaine. They stayed for about 5 years in these territories before the great revolt occurred in Al-Andalus and North Africa. Charles Martel only appeared after 5 years of the battle of tours, when he tried to utilize that revolt and attack the Umayyads in this critical time. However, his campaign failed in the Septimanian territory.--عامرالقمر (talk) 12:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

• This edit really messed up the article. the sources are originally in Arabic, some written by western educated writers, others by amateur historians. What they have in common is are that they are usually void of any inline citation, this is understandable since they target a semi-educated audience. None of these books have been taken seriously by any academically published work. The same authors published books titled for example People of Israel and the Myth of Belonging to Semitism, if these count as RS then we might as well burn Cambridge and Oxford.--Kathovo talk 18:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

It is amazing how much "detail" has been written about this battle, given the lack of evidence; the article fails to note that even the year of the battle itself is in dispute. As noted, the most complete account we have of the battle that is anything like contemporary is that quoted in full in the article from the Chronicle of 754, and even that was written over two decades later somewhere in Muslim Spain by an unknown Christian writer, presumably a cleric, not an eyewitness. So many bricks, so little straw!Isidorpax (talk) 20:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not sure the article has a POV problem so much as a piecemeal-editing problem. It seems to me fairly obvious that the RS are not going to present a single POV on this and so the article should not attempt to present a consensus but rather to cover the different POVs fairly. Actually I think the article covers a good range of sources but the problem is that they have been added piecemeal by different editors without a consistent attempt to keep the article coherent overall. So now we have different sections of the article quoting different sources for the same facts, leading to what look like contradictions. Someone familiar with the sources (or at least with access to them) needs to take a step back and rework the article to present the different sources consistently throughout. GoldenRing (talk) 13:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Horses need grain?

From the article: "The Umayyad attack was likely so late in the year because many men and horses needed to live off the land as they advanced; thus they had to wait until the area's wheat harvest was ready and then until a reasonable amount of the harvest was threshed (slowly by hand with flails) and stored. The further north, the later the harvest is, and while the men could kill farm livestock for food, horses cannot eat meat and needed grain as food."

Horses don't normally eat grain, but fibrous grasses and hay, hence their rumen. Grain is only fed for fattening such an animal for slaughter.