User talk:Jimbo Wales

Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end.
Start a new talk topic.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251: 24 hours

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Archives

Index

–index–

This manual archive index may be out of date.
Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by when more than 2 sections are present.

(Manual archive list)

Congratulations

Closing this discussion; if you want to discuss the award further, take it to some other page. Wifione ^Message 05:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Participants seem to agree on a close of this topic on this page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Congratulations on receiving the Knowledge Award and a cash prize of $1 million! [1] Everymorning talk to me 01:43, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow! Yes well done @Jimbo Wales:! Very well deserved :)--5 albert square (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats! =D - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:55, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nice Job! Hopefully it makes up for all the toxic users on your talk page ;) Winner 42 Talk to me! 02:38, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo! - Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:47, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is cool. It may even have made it into Wikipedia,[2] congratulations.—John Cline (talk) 05:14, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Very cool - congrats! ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 05:45, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. It's pretty amazing. It's actually split with Sir Tim Berners-Lee so not $1 million to me but still it's impressive.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Congrats on this. Taking the emotion of the moment, I thought I'll suggest that perhaps you could institute some kind of an award (non-monetary) or recognition for editors from your desk or the Foundation's. Would motivate them too, similar to how we feel good when you get the award. Barnstars are wonderful - and great recognition. But a formal series of recognitions from your/Foundation's side could put some additional verve into our editor lot (or perhaps such a thing already exists and I am not aware of it; or maybe it's not a practical idea, but just had it in my mind for some time, so thought I'll suggest). Congrats again. Wifione ^Message 14:54, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What a cordiality and friendly speech from someone who has been told "not to come back" (by Jimbo Wales himself), not long time ago! I admire your ability to forgive, User:Wifione. Btw, you don't work for Mr. Chaudhuri anymore? I mean, you don't manipulate those articles since it was exposed in your editor review and in other places ... --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 09:35, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Truly amazing to see you honored equally with the great TB-L. Congratulations. To which NGO(s) will you donate the loot? Coming as it does with the imprimatur of a repellant regime, infamous for human rights violations such as slave labor, repression of free speech, judicial discrimination against women, criminalization of rape victims and Muslim women who marry non-Muslims, and judicial penalties that include the execution of homosexuals, pot dealers, and apostates, will you be looking for organizations that combat these human rights abuses? Writegeist (talk) 07:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As an Emirati, and a student at the American University of Sharjah, I am disappointed that Mr Wales did not take the opportunity to speak out against the abuses that Writegeist writes about and which is documented here on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Mr Wales, you had an opportunity to speak out for the people in my country who have experienced true freedom elsewhere (I studied in the United States) and who suffer under a regime that does not value true human rights. The regime splurges billions of dollars on promoting a false image of life in the Emirates to a western audience; you had an opportunity Mr Wales to speak out for all Emiratis, and also those non-nationals who are forced into slave labour and have no rights. I am at risk by posting this very message. This is not how it should be Mr Wales. Instead, it appears you were bought for $500,000. You sold us out Mr Wales. 194.170.173.249 (talk) 12:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IP249, thank you for your courageous post. As this talk page is heavily watchlisted and as, for the time being at least, the co-founder seems to be at a loss for words on this topic (though not on that of so-called "Cultural Marxism"), perhaps some of the watchers will chip in and name human rights organizations for the co-founder to consider as beneficiaries of a gesture of largesse that would be in keeping with his vociferous advocacy of "moral ambitiousness". Writegeist (talk) 19:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All awards are political. And the more money they carry, the more political they are. What did/will the sheikh want in return? Wikipedia just hit the new low. 83.208.89.162 (talk) 22:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Jimbo Wales: Had you been in your home town the day before you received your $500,000 payment in Dubai, you could have joined the Day of Anger protest outside the UAE embassy to add your voice to those raised against the UAE's egregious human rights violations.

And only yesterday the Emirates Centre for Human Rights tweeted: "The silence of the international community despite the deteriorating conditions of PoC's [Prisoners of Conscience] in the UAE is shameful. Action must be taken."

Do you think the UK office of the ECHR would be a good starting point for you?

My suggestion FWIW is Human Rights Watch. Their online donations page invites tax-deductible gifts to help HRW "investigate and expose human rights abuses, hold human rights abusers accountable for their crimes, and pressure governments, policy-makers, and the international community to take action against abuse"—precisely, I'm sure, the activities you'd want to support with your UAE payment.

For your—and your page watchers'—interest here is HRW's 2013 World Report on the UAE: [3]. And here are their latest (2014) reports on specific UAE human rights abuses: [4], [5], [6], [7]. I hope this helps. Or do you already have a particular beneficiary in mind? Writegeist (talk) 23:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I find this extremely worrying. (And now there's a comment, below, about a genealogy project, on which he "[doesn't] have a strong view"). I would agree about HRW, on whom this encyclopaedia relies extensively. zzz (talk) 10:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it is worrying.

Today is Human Rights Day. What perfect (and ironic) timing. The co-founder has $500,000 burning a hole in his conscience because he took it from a regime that's notorious for human rights abuse. What better day than Human Rights Day for the co-founder to give the tainted loot to Human Rights Watch, thus actually doing something worthwhile with the money, in a meaningful gesture of protest about human rights abuses by the UAE and other vile regimes worldwide—a truly grand gesture that would show some real "moral ambitiousness" and earn some real respect. What say you, Jimbo Wales? Or are you silent because you're waiting for advice from the PR people? Writegeist (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Common guys, I'm sure Mr. Wales has accepted the award with one purpose and one purpose only: He's going to donate all of it, to the very last penny to the WMF to be used for spreading a free knowledge, which I'm sure would help to improve human rights around the world. You're going to donate the money to the WMF, aren't you, Mr. Wales? Think about it. If you're to donate the money, you would kill two birds with one stone: First, you stop the critics who're saying that you dishonored yourself by accepting the award from an oppressive regime, and second your donation would help the WMF to stop begging for donations a few days earlier.59.78.160.247 (talk) 02:02, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I live in hope, but somehow, sadly I don't think that will happen. I hope I'm proved wrong though.--5 albert square (talk) 02:13, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I rarely speak on posts like these, but I am severely disappointed that Jimmy accepted this award without and an immediate, strong, public condemnation of the human rights practices of the UAE. One million is little to pay to gain the publicity generated by being able to attract famous figures for an awards ceremony. The United Arab Emirates have at least 250,000 people working in conditions that amount to slavery. Not slavery thrown around in a Godwin manner, actual slavery. Jimbo: return the award, make a public renunciation of the human rights practices of the UAE, and distribute the money to a worthy charity or other cause. If you keep the money, you are directly benefitting from modern day slavery and from the deaths of many, many people. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevin Gorman - out of interest, when were you last in the UAE? Pedro : Chat 21:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I tend not to go to places whose regimes I strongly disagree with. I don't particularly think you need to go to a country to be familiar with its underbelly - in fact, I rather suspect spending a week at a resort in Dubai would be less informative than the thousands of pages of reading I've done about governance in the Emirates, or the hundred or so pages of academic writing I've done about it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Every penny of the money will be used to combat human rights abuses worldwide with a specific focus on the Middle East and with a specific focus on freedom of speech / access to knowledge issues. Of course.

The specifics of exactly what the best approach is to doing that are not clear to me yet - I had no advance warning of this prize and so did not have any kind of plan in place. While of course I love the Wikimedia Foundation and continue to donate a huge chunk of my time and energy supporting the work of the Foundation, it is not an organization specifically focussed on human rights issues nor specifically focussed on the Middle East, and so I think wouldn't have nearly the impact that I can have in other ways.

The first thing that I did upon returning to London was hire a human rights lawyer full-time to work for me for the next month on these issues. That may turn into a longer term thing, or it may not. As I say, I'm only at the beginning of figuring out the optimal strategic approach.

I have always been extremely outspoken on these issues and will continue to do so. I am thankful for some of the suggestions given in this thread (and less thankful for the nasty false assumptions and snide attitude from some). In particular, I plan to contact and meet with "the UK office of Emirates Centre for Human Rights," an organization that I had never heard of before just now. I'll be happy to get leads on other interesting organizations as well.

Finally, I wanted to specifically call out Mr. Writegeist for obnoxiousness. "are you silent because you are waiting for advice from PR people?" That's a completely uninformed nasty remark that bears no resemblance to the facts, and indicates such a total lack of knowledge of me and my character that I think you should really regret making it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Writegeist posted his first comment 2 days ago, and you responded to a number of other comments between then and now. You do have a history of (seemingly) waiting for the archive bot rather than responding to uncomfortable questions.

Next time, maybe just say something along the lines of "I hear you, I agree, but I need another day or two to think. Worth a try. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:58, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your gracious and positive response, Jimbo. I imagine that it must be frustrating for you when various people insist that you jump through their hoops, lickety split. Anything that you can do with this money to advance the cause of free expression and human rights in the Middle East will be a good thing. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:56, 12 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for responding, Jimbo. I can't particularly criticize accepting money from the Emirates and putting it to good use, given that most of my cardiologists work out of a clinic named after Sheikh Zayed. A million put towards fighting human rights abuses won't fix the world but can certainly do good. One possible use I may suggest for a small fraction of it: working on initiatives to improve Wikipedia's coverage of human rights abuses. It's an area we're rather weak in given our systemic biases, and given Wikipedia's prominence in pretty much all search engines, better coverage could result in a significantly more informed public. (I don't mean hiring paid editors, but productive content generating initiatives focused on human rights issues could do a lot of good with 50 or 60k.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:56, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Any word on what Berners-Lee is doing with his half of the dough? Neutron (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Jimbo Wales: "I have always been extremely outspoken on these issues." Please point me to instances of your extreme outspokenness on the issue at hand: human rights abuses by the UAE. Going by DuckDuckGo hits (not necessarily the best indicator), you have spoken about universal accessibility to knowledge as a human right, and also about the undesirability of "censoring links to legally published news articles and Wikipedia entries" because "history is a human right," etc. By contrast the history of your extreme outspokenness on human rights abuses by the regime that gave you $500,000 eludes DuckDuckGo. If you or one of your page watchers uses Google, I trust any relevant links will be added to this thread.

In reply to the question in my previous comments you said it showed a lack of knowledge of your character. If you want I can give a thoughtful response with specific examples of your known behaviour (behaviour helps us know character). My personal preference is to sidestep the matter of your character and focus on the larger issue.

Do you, in fact, unequivocally deplore and condemn the human rights abuses by the United Arab Emirates, from whose government you have accepted a payment of $500,000? Writegeist (talk) 03:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You should go read WP:DICK. You are very unlikely to find specific cases of me speaking about the situation in Kyrgystan, Belarus, or any of a very large number of states who violate the right of freedom of speech and other human rights. I am not a one-man Amnesty International. I have always been outspoken on these issues and you should find it very easy to find out my position and to find specific examples of me speaking out against censorship in particular, which is the main issue that I find the world eager to hear my views on. (I could speak out against, for example, female genital mutilation - but no reporter has ever asked me about that issue and unless I had a specific reason to devote my life to it I don't think I could be very effective. And there are, of course, dozens of specific issues that I must leave to others.)

Of course I unequivocally deplore and condemn human rights abuses in every place in the world, including the United Arab Emirates.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many people aren't so concerned that their highfalutin human rights are being violated when they face the more immediate risks of starvation, lack of clean drinking water, disease, sexual violence and/or war. Lots of things to worry about and where to begin? If you donated the $500,000 to support polio eradication or clean drinking water in the third world, I wouldn't fault you. Once basic needs are met, people have more opportunity to participate in civic life and demand their human rights. There's no need to aggravate the person who gave you the award by showing him up. Jehochman ^Talk 22:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are definite problems in the Gulf states that can be addressed, such as issues surrounding exploitation of labor. If he doesn't want to give it to the Coretheapple Penguin Relief Fund or keep it, he can give it to an organization fighting labor abuses there involving South Asian workers, for instance. Plenty of good causes, if he is so inclined and wants to specifically deal with the Gulf. Coretheapple (talk) 22:49, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy, did you do any research into the UK office of Emirates Centre for Human Rights yet? It's generally good to do some googling before setting up a meeting. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 11:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I only heard about the organization's existence 48 hours ago. I have neither googled them nor contacted them. As you should know by now, I'm a very deliberate and thorough person and so I will be very careful to do my due diligence before working with anyone. As I have said, I now have someone on my personal staff working full-time on these issues and we will be investigating slowly and carefully - to have maximum effectiveness - who to work with and what to do. Up above Cullen wisely wrote: "I imagine that it must be frustrating for you when various people insist that you jump through their hoops, lickety split". Of course it is frustrating (though more disappointing than frustrating) but not so frustrating that it will cause me to change my ways and react in some silly knee jerk fashion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FFS Jimmy, all you would have needed to do was to read the Wikipedia articles to know that accepting this award would be complicated, to say the least. As far as what I should know about you being careful, thorough, and doing due diligence... good gravy man, do you recall our interactions and correspondence in the past? It's all water under the bridge between you and me as far as I'm concerned, but it's your tendency to jump before looking that's getting you into trouble here, and the consequences in this case are a bit more important than whether or not Wikiversity overcomes a problem. Please, please just say no next time you're offered a reward like this. When someone in your position says "no!" loudly, firmly, and with an explanation why, it could actually make a difference. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It does not seem the least bit complicated to me, and I've made exactly the right choice. Now there is going to be $500,000 fighting against human rights abuses that would have sat in their pockets. Excellent. I'm sure you want it to be difficult and scandalous but of course it isn't in the least.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not the least bit complicated? Aside from slave labour and murderous oppression, this regime relies heavily on tourism, in other words on maintaining a certain respectable image. I honestly fail to see how it could be any more complicated. SBJ is correct: saying "no" could have actually made a difference. 500k means nothing: I am sure that they were absolutely delighted [8]. zzz (talk) 12:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but let's be fair to the guy (I mean, he only founded the goddamn website we're using and all that). I've already gone through the mechanics of refusing and pointed out that if he had turned it down it would have been a silent gesture, which he could have turned into a noisy gesture by issuing a statement. But it seems to me that such a route would have had drawbacks too. Whereas taking the money and carefully using it for a proper purpose, such as specific NGOs dealing with labor abuses in the Gulf states, would do serious good. I disagree with you. Half a million is a lot of money for the kinds of programs that would benefit people persecuted in the Gulf states. Now if he uses it to buy a yacht, as I would do in such a situation, it's a different story entirely. Coretheapple (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support a whip-round (in principle), to pay for a yacht for the founder of this website. But half a million would only buy a very small yacht. And, I have zero faith in the vast majority of NGOs. zzz (talk) 00:05, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations to founder of the great free-acess website! --Ochilov (talk) 18:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes indeed. If there are no strings attached to the award, I don't understand the problem. Yes he could have thrown the money back in their faces and issued a press release. But it's a million bucks. It can do some good. I am no fan of that regime but I would take that money in a minute if it was offered to me, and rest assured that I would bank it and not give it away. By the way, had he decided to refuse the money they would simply have given it to somebody else. Then, to make a fuss, he'd have had to issue a statement saying "they offered me the money and I refused it," which would have been attacked as grandstanding. So let's be fair, people. Coretheapple (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to understand that there are people who always attack what I do no matter what I do. SB Johnny is one of them. There's no possibility of winning so I just have to laugh off the nonsense and do the right thing regardless of the carping.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's unfair... am I the enemy of the week or something? I defend you when it's fairly obvious to me that you're trying to do the right thing, though generally not on your talk page. I think you're trying to do the right thing here too, but apparently you're too far into defensive mode to catch my drift.

Hiring an assistant or intern with a background in ethics and international politics would be a good way to spend some of the money, because when you get pulled in for a photo op like this you do damage that's hard to undo. I know you mean well, Jimmy, but you've been snookered twice now by authoritarian regimes. Since researching that sort of thing isn't your specialty, perhaps you'd be willing to hire some help on that front. The volunteers of Wikipedia would feel better, no doubt, and would be a big win for you, us, and the world at large. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings to new user Ochilov, and how lovely that in the space of less than a week you and the co-founder have become friends (according to your user page).

@Jimbo Wales: Having asked for evidence of extreme outspokenness on human rights abuse by a financial benefactor, namely the government of the United Arab Emirates, it's interesting and revealing to receive a response prefaced with "Go read WP:DICK". Particularly when it's from someone who wrote "...if an essay on 'Don't be a dick' is being used by people in a dickish way, something has gone wrong." If someone would care to write WP:ASSHOLE (yay! Gender neutral!) I'll bear it in mind as a suggestion for appropriate recipients in future.

Be that as it may, you nevertheless confirm the findings I noted in my comments: your past public utterances on human rights have indeed addressed general principles of free speech and access to information, but not human rights abuses in the Middle East in general or the United Arab Emirates in particular. I commend the clear statement you have now made in unequivocal condemnation of the UAE's human rights record, and note that you will devote at least some of the money they gave you to the cause of combatting their violations and abuses. Your clarification comes as very welcome news, not least in light of past connection to the Kazakh dictatorship, described by Human Rights Watch as implementing "a growing crackdown" on free speech, which came under scrutiny by the media [9] at the time.

SB Johnny makes an excellent point about the ECHR. But even if you decide the questions raised by the Torygraph and others—about religio-political connections and ultimate objectives—render the organization ineligible for your financial support, the people there may be able to provide information that helps to educate you more deeply about the UAE's human rights abuses. Thank you for an interesting and productive discussion. ~~Herewith bowing out of this thread :)~~ Writegeist (talk) 00:57, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Past connection to the Kazakh dictatorship" - total and utter and complete bullshit. I have no past connection of any kind to the Kazakh dictatorship.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:13, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm going to announce right now is unknown to anybody except a few people who looked at my slides before I put them up. I'm announcing today an annual award – probably annual, if I remember next year – and, ah, the title of the award is 'Global Wikipedian of the Year'. [applause] Given by me personally and my opinion, and later of course like everything that started out 'me personally and my opinion' will find a process in the future to have this be community organised. And this year, the winner is Rauan of Kazakh Wikipedia. So Rauan, if you can come down. Maybe it's too hard to come down – maybe he'll just stay there! So – I've been following the story of Kazakh Wikipedia, er, since, er Ting went to Kazakhstan, and he came back and he reported on something amazing that was happening there. And I started to get in touch with them, and I also I've been getting in touch with the government there. I've been talking to the Prime Minister there. [ …] I'm going in December and I'm going to give the award in the presence of the Prime Minister to Rauan, pending scheduling. Prime ministers are always hard to nail down, but they've agreed to the meeting, er, and I think that if we think about the things that they're doing, think about the things that I've talked about, I think that if we really try hard on this, instead of having sad puppies and sad kittens, we'll have happy puppies and kittens.

2011 Wikimani closing ceremony. John lilburne (talk) 13:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for posting that, but I'm not sure what the point is. I have met with, and will in the future meet with, leaders and bureaucrats and politicians from many countries with terrible records on human rights, in order to encourage, educate, and pressure them to change. I trust that your transcription is correct and so I must correct one error in what I said. I have never spoken to the Prime Minister there, but I was in communication with the Prime Minister's office. (In the next little bit, I got it right when I say "they've agreed to the meeting" - meaning his office.) That meeting never happened because, ultimately, when I met with a representative of his in Davos, a discussion of the necessary conditions for the meeting would have made it impossible for them to agree. I was ultimately told that if I want to come and visit Ruaun (which I still plan to do) they would allow the visa, but would not allow for any press coverage, etc.

People love to pull this bonkers Telegraph story up because of the wild insinuation that I in some way compromised my principles (perhaps by taking money? perhaps by Tony Blair doing things that I wouldn't, and... I know him... so... whatever) in the case of Kazakhstan. But the simple truth is that I have had no "connection" with the Kazakh dictatorship except one of lobbying them for change.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:02, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh the point is, and perhaps I'm being a bit picky here, that "I have no past connection of any kind to the Kazakh dictatorship" is not quite the same as "I have never spoken to the Prime Minister there". John lilburne (talk) 07:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's being picky. Those are two different statements. Both are true. The original poster was trying to insinuate that I have had some kind of improper dealings or connection to them, which is frankly ridiculous. I haven't ever and I never will. What I have done, and which I will continue to do, is seek to use my influence as best I can to encourage positive change. That's sometimes going to mean meeting with people to tell them what I think.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I always find it kind of weird that people think they have some sort of moral right to tell other people how to spend their money. NE Ent 10:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Calling a documented fact "bullshit" doesn't fool anyone except the foolish. As to the issue you raise of impropriety in dealing/connecting with the Kazakh dictatorship—e.g. paying a Kazakh government worker to copy state-controlled "encyclopedic" information to Wikipedia—I note you take the position that such actions are not improper; that you take them as someone who seeks to use his influence to encourage positive change; and that you tell people what you think. By the way have you, as a self-declared free speech activist (vide Twitter) whose dealings and connection with the Kazakhstan government are entirely proper, made any specific public statements telling people what you think about Kazakhstan's dictatorial control of information, suppression of free speech, and violation of dissidents' human rights? Writegeist (talk) 19:44, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Credit where it's due. (Christian Science Monitor reporter Dan Murphy responded elsewhere with: "The following facts had been established before he wrote the above: That Wikibilim is funded largely by the Kazakh government's sovereign wealth fund, that it says "paid editing" is conducted at the Kazakh Wikipedia with this money, that at least 40,000 of the Kazakh Wikipedia's articles were lifted directly from the government's own Kazakh National Encyclopedia, and that the government's National Academy of Sciences has been conducting "content and quality review" of the Kazakh Wikipedia's contents. He also doesn't seem to understand the idea that involvement with such governments, even when made with the best of intentions, can be in turn used by those governments to polish their own images.") Have you made any similar statement about Kazakhstan outside of Wikipedia? Writegeist (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I know little about this, but one of these days you ought to go on the board of a nonprofit, a type of organization that by definition begs people for money, and see what happens when the Government of Crumbumistan offers you $1 million. I think you'll find that it's tempting to say the least. If you're worried about paid editing perhaps you should join me in urging Jimbo to end it. Coretheapple (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Message from M.al-A.UAE

This was posted on my talk page, since I was the admin who semi-protected this one. I'm just passing it along; I skimmed it to make sure it wasn't obviously abusive, but beyond that I offer no opinion.

Dear Mr. Wales,
I am a graduate of the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at United Arab Emirates University in Al Ain, and have a BA in Mass Communications (i.e. journalism). Your acceptance of the $500,000 in Dubai is the subject of discussion among Emiratis who are not in agreeance with the current state of affairs in the UAE as it relates to human rights and freedom of speech.
The Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Knowledge Award which came with the $500,000 prize is named after Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, the "ruler" of Dubai and Vice President of the UAE. From the positions he holds in the UAE, he is partly responsible for the current state of human rights in my country. I see that posters above are bringing to your attention the abysmal human rights record in this country. They, and you, are likely well versed in the state of labor rights in the UAE. They have not, however, brought up the situation in the UAE on freedom of speech, and therefore the ability of those in the UAE to freely disseminate knowledge, and this goes to the core in showing how absurd the award is.
Mr. Wales, please consider the following cases:

In 2012, the Konrad Adenauer Foundation was forced to close its office in Abu Dhabi. Their mission is the promotion of “promotion of freedom and liberty, peace, and justice”. The National Democratic Institute for International Affairs also had its Dubai office closed by the authorities. No legitimate reason was given for the closure. See: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/06/world/meast/uae-organizations/

In 2012, Assistant Professor of Communication Matt J. Duffy had his contract at Zayed University cancelled and he was deported from the country. Mr. Duffy helped to found a campus chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists and attempted to teach students journalistic ethics and standards. Mr. Duffy wrote about this at http://mattjduffy.com/2012/08/ive-been-kicked-out-of-the-united-arab-emirates/. Mr. Duffy also offers reasons for the termination of his employment and deportation at http://mattjduffy.com/2012/08/top-18-things-that-may-have-gotten-me-booted-from-the-uae/.

In 2014, Yasin Kakande was fired from The National and deported from the country for writing the autobiographical book The Ambitious Struggle: An African Journalist's Journey of Hope and Identity in a Land of Migrants (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ambitious-Struggle-Journalists-Identity-Migrants/dp/189035743X/ref=la_B00GU54WOO_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418300730&sr=1-1). Mr. Wales, please take the time to read this book, which is banned in the UAE (http://www.migrant-rights.org/research/uae-censors-author-of-book-criticizing-migrant-race-issues/).

There is another case you may not be familiar with. The UAE 94 is a group of 94 lawyers, judges, human rights activists and others, who have spoken out in favour of democracy in my country. The dissidents are members of Al Islah, a non-violent political group, and do have an affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood. I do not agree with the politics of this group, I am myself an atheist (a capital offense in my country). However, I do agree with their non-violent stance, and I do believe in their rights to call for democracy in this country. This group has been subjected to arbitrary detention, torture and trials which have been deemed to be unfair by the international community (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/19106). On March 17, Osama Najjar was arrested (http://twitmail.com/email/533078805/901/533078805) because he spoke out on Twitter (https://twitter.com/O_Hussain_) about these abuses. One week prior to your visit to the UAE, Osama was imprisoned for 3 years and fined 500,000 dirhams for speaking out. (http://en.rsf.org/emirats-arabes-unis-online-activist-gets-three-years-02-12-2014,47327.html)
There is no freedom in the UAE Mr. Wales.
I appreciate greatly that you have committed yourself to ensuring that the $500,000 which was awarded to you in the name of Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum will go toward advancing human rights in the Arab world. I also appreciate that you have committed part of your cause to include open data access, but sincerely Mr. Wales, what good is pushing for open data in this region, when the region is not open in terms of freedom of the press and human rights. There are many groups which are fighting for basic human rights in the UAE and some of them, as noted above, do have some links to some unsavoury groups. My suggestion to you Mr. Wales is to make contact with Mr. Duffy and Mr. Kakande and ask for their advice and guidance.
I do have one simple request for you Mr. Wales. When you donate the $500,000 please do so openly by putting out press releases on these donations. There is no stronger message that you can send to the regime in my country, and others in Arab world, than publicly declaring that you stand with the people who do not enjoy basic human rights. This will send a strong message to governments that they can not place a price on human rights and for the silence of the West.
We, the people, of the United Arab Emirates, thank you Mr. Wales for your commitment to helping us gain basic human rights and we trust the organisations you will donate the $500,000 to will put the money to good use.
Thank you for your time. M.al-A.UAE (talk) 04:19, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:15, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I don't think I said anything about open data in this context, and I completely agree with you that it is a much less pressing issue than freedom of speech. I can assure you that everything I do in this regard will be as public and noisy as I can make it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"After criticism, Jimmy Wales pledges $500k prize to charity" (headline)

"I can assure you that everything I do in this regard will be as public and noisy as I can make it." J. Wales, 14 December

Bravo. Someone has already made a start on that for you:

"Wikipedia cofounder Jimmy Wales has pledged that the half a million dollars he was awarded earlier this month by the United Arab Emirates will go to charity. The move comes on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves . . . " etc. [10] Writegeist (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've written to them to correct the core error in the story - the false claim that this was done in response to pressure from Wikipedians. I started the process from the moment I was told about the prize, including hiring someone full-time to work on the question of how to best accomplish my goals.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The report's claim that your pledge came "on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves" is not a "core error" as you claim—it's a core fact. Proof is self-evident in the content of the Congratulations thread on this page.

As an aide memoire: your receipt of the money was reported (I think) on December 7. On December 8 you commented here, "It's pretty amazing. It's actually shared with Sir Tim Berners-Lee so not $1 million to me but still it's impressive." Pressure for comment about donating the money began with my post on December 8. Pressure on you continued on December 9 when an Emirati commented on your failure to speak out against UAE human rights abuses and said it appeared the regime had bought you for $500,000. There was further pressure from myself and another user on the same date, and pressure continued on December 10. It was not until December 11 that you finally responded, and the response was your pledge. Do you have a different reading of the timeline? Writegeist (talk) 12:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To arrive at your conclusion, you must rely on the silly assumption that nothing can occur without it being reported on this page. Deli nk (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Precisely. To be 100% clear: I started my consideration of what to do with the money from the moment I learned of it and before the prize was even announced I was already talking to the human rights lawyer about what the options would be. When I got back to London I hired her full-time. None of that had anything to do with any pressure from anyone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I find the inability of some to AGF of your actions and the things you say to be one of the most discouraging things about Wikipedia.--MONGO 17:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with MONGO above.

Also, as a bit of a plug for in-house matters, although technically it might well be very difficult to do, I wonder if maybe some of the money might be given to the foundation for the purposes of maybe paying for putting some valuable and useful PD sources, like local history journals and reference sources which over time fall into the PD, on the web or on commons or whatever. Considering that every year more sources become PD, and the era that is now gradually becoming PD is among the greatest periods of production of literature of all time, there is a lot of valuable and potentially useful information that could be made more broadly available. So, maybe, as an example, a donation to the Missouri History Museum to pay for putting images of PD works on Commons and/or the broader net might be one option. Or, maybe, a donation to the Columbus, Ohio, public library, which so far as I can tell has the broadest collection of local history journals in the US. Just an idea, anyway. John Carter (talk) 17:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Deli NL and MONGO above, and generally with John Carter. The digitization of PD material does seem like something WP could help pay for (btw -selfpromotion - see my unpaid work at Commons:Category:Postcard collections of the Presbyterian Historical Society)

Nevertheless, the suggestions for where Jimbo might spend his money seem to be quite far from the MidEast issues that it seems he wants to address. I too like suggesting to other people where they might spend their money, but usually avoid it because it never seems to work! To get some help in that matter you might more effectively ask for contributions from the chapters (e.g. WikiDC or WikiNYC), and I guess there are other places to make suggestions directly with the foundation. Perhaps there should be a central place for requests for big projects, such as PD digitization. I've always wanted to suggest that WP help fund the recording of PD music, but refrained because it is such a big potential project, and frankly I haven't expected many people to agree with me (but who knows?). Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fact: The cofounder made his pledge after criticism here. The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.

Fact: The pledge came "on the heels of intense pressure from Wikipedians themselves." The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.

Fact: "Wales made his intentions for the prize money public after pressure from Wikipedians who expressed dismay that Wales, famous for his public exhortations against autocratic governments, appeared to have taken money from one that is notorious for its human rights abuses." The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.

Fact: "Following the [award ceremony], Wikipedians took to Wales's user page on the online encyclopedia to criticize him for seemingly failing to issue an "immediate, strong, public condemnation of human rights practices in the UAE." The article's assertion is demonstrably accurate.

Following Wales's email, an addendum to the article notes that he says he "privately planned to use the UAE money to further human rights causes before receiving any criticism from Wikipedians."

The DD's comments section is now graced by Jonathan Hochman dismissing as "trolls" the Wikipedians whose criticisms and pressure drew the pledge from the cofounder in response. This is of course Wikipedia user Jehochman, an administrator here who dismisses human rights such as freedom of speech as "highfalutin", i.e. pretentious: "Many people aren't so concerned that their highfalutin human rights are being violated when they face the more immediate risks of starvation, lack of clean drinking water, disease, sexual violence and/or war." Writegeist (talk) 18:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Irrespective of what came before, your comments certainly resemble trolling now. —David Levy 19:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just because one event followed another one does not mean the first caused the second. The headline makes an arguably technically correct statement about the sequence of events (assuming you interpret it to literally mean that the announcement of the pledge came after the criticism), but strongly implies that the second event was caused by the first, which is wildly misleading. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 19:17, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You missed:

Fact: Some people are so busy assuming that Jimbo is evil that they lose sight of the obvious, that accusing Jimbo of lying about having someone already identified and in post before the award was even announced is ridiculous, tendentious and unworthy, just like most of what is written about Jimbo by people who obsessively use the term co-founder. Guy (Help!) 19:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@ Levy: No. The comments set the record straight. @ Guy: (1) Use of "cofounder" ditto. (2) " . . . accusing Jimbo of lying about having someone already identified and in post before the award was even announced . . . " is a sentence that does not make sense to me. Are you accusing me of accusing the cofounder of lying? Writegeist (talk) 19:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think we can safely take the Daily Dot off the reliable sources list. Seems like it's a mouthpiece for idiots. Congrats on the prize. And no, a single malcontent or two is not pressure. Personally, after that article, I'd use the money to buy the Daily Dot and then use the magazine to promote human rights and start by firing a few reporters. My new Daily Dot would start off with an article about Pakistan's latest tragedy involving education, not how UAE's awards for improving the world are wrong. --DHeyward (talk) 02:03, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Or as it's now called..the daily dump I am not going to be forgiven for that comment am i... Lor^{Ho ho ho} 02:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)\[reply]

I just think it would be the most awesome press release to say "With this award, I have bought the "Daily Dot" with the intent to use it to highlight Human Rights abuses. In the next few months as we transition to Human Rights coverage, there may be personnel changes necessary to provide the most objective views and excellence in journalism that such an endeavor requires." Then see what a Daily Dump really really looks like. In fact, future employment could be measured by the Hersey stripe in the underpants of employees. "But I'm a bomb thrower, not a Human Rights reporter!?! I just know the catchphrases, I'm not actually a 'Reporter without Borders', I never leave the San Francisco city limits." Heck, if he didn't fire anybody and just required registration and activation in 'Reporters without Borders,' he'd achieve the same effect. No reporter complains about a UAE assignment. But Pakistan, not so much. It is an incredibly hypocritical article and giving that reporter the opportunity to cover Taliban human rights violations would speak volumes of the idiotic piece in the Daily Dot. --DHeyward (talk) 04:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I know he won't acknowledge this POV, but I hope he gets a chuckle about possibly being able to send the Daily Dot reporter to cover Human Rights abuses from ISIL or Peshawar province in Pakistan. My guess is that the reporter and Wrongtard aren't excited about reporting those real human rights abuses. They'd rather criticize from a country that won't threaten your life over online posting. The real heroes are those people that they are afraid to interview because it's dangerous. No one covering the Pakistan massacre is criticising a progressive movement in UAE because it isn't yet London or San Francisco. Only the western Barcolounger journalists would see the UAE's recognition as negative. Cultural and generational changes are slow. This is like criticising the Bill of Rights because slavery existed. Dipshiats. --DHeyward (talk) 04:47, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy Wales got criticized for something Wikipedia related. Huh. It must be a Wednesday. Or Thursday or ... although it goes against my many mostly private wiki-principles -- nobody likes a suck-up -- in response to some of the above: Jimbo, Congratulations! It's your award, spend it on whatever you want. NE Ent 02:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I know Jimbo does't restrain comments here even by negative editors, but this section seems to be just turning into (or has already turned into long back) a personal, pointy I-got-you-down discussion that has all elements of trolling. It won't be surprising if there's an RfC on this by the same editor. I believe it is enough said on this topic already, and repetitive comments by just one editor are quite disruptive, if not anything else. Time to actually hat this discussion off. Wifione ^Message 02:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I concur. Townlake (talk) 04:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Don't close other people's discussions, especially not on someone else's talk page. It seems to have petered out and there may be nothing left to say, but please leave that up to the participants. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:52, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Participants agreed to close afaics, so please don't reopen "other people's discussions, especially not on someone else's talk page," especially as there seems to be an agreement among participants to close. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you bored?

Here's a big topic that needs to be written: Hispanics and Latinos in California. Carrite (talk) 19:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say, I can understand why it'd be daunting to take on something like that. Writing a decent article on a high-importance topic can be a very drawn-out process, as I've found out. Something like that would be perfect for a multi-editor collaboration, or else it would take one individual months or years to tackle it... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've seen a few reference books relating to ethnic groups in general and ethnic groups in the US in particular which might be useful in this regard. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A stub? Amazing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We do have a good article on Californios, though. I wish I could understand what "Hispanics and Latinos" are, but that's another story. RGloucester — ☎ 22:33, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Core. Yeah, I was shocked when I found the piece to drop in a reading link. Carrite (talk) 00:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I see that RGloucester has a point. Isn't Californio duplicative? Coretheapple (talk) 01:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To a point, but it only offers in-depth coverage of the topic until the annexation, and says virtually nothing about California today. Furthermore, it does not address the many other sources of the Hispanic population from across South and Central America. bd2412 T 01:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Californio" only refers to the original peninsular and mestizo Spanish population that was present in California prior to the annexation of California by the United States, and their descendants. Yes, it does need more information on the present status of those people. They do make-up an important component of the Californian population. However, if one is talking about present day immigrants to California, that's quite a different topic. The idea of an article on "Hispanics and Latinos" in California is problematic for a variety of reasons, as it would involve conflating the Californios with these newcomers. RGloucester — ☎ 01:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wow -- writing that article would be a huge (but fascinating) job. Here's one that's even better developed: Hispanics and Latinos in Texas. Antandrus (talk) 02:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Hispanics" and "Latinos" are synonyms, as far as I'm aware. I think that Hispanos is the preferred term in the US but it looks like they have it as Latinos on Es-WP, for what it is worth. Carrite (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

THIS is sort of interesting. I hear Hispano on Univision etc. when I drop in briefly to work on my horrible Spanish... Carrite (talk) 03:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies, and thanks to Carrite for bringing this to our attention. I'm interested in this area and I'll try to pitch in. Carrite, feel free to remind me of such neglected articles directly (as I think you did once, with that Chualar crash, unless I'm confusing you with another editor). Coretheapple (talk) 16:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One thing Wikipedia is missing is a suggestion box for new work. Articles for Creation is a backlogged catastrophe that should be immediately abolished and Today's Article for Improvement has more or less misfired... There needs to be some kind of a "Work Needed" area that people can visit when they are bored or where we can send newcomers who need something to do that involves tilling up new soil rather than running the harrow over the same sandy dust for the 15th time... Anyway, my two cents. Carrite (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plenty are listed at Wikipedia:Community portal. WilyD 17:09, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And, potentially, even more in the various pages Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, even if the only ones I've really gotten to yet are many of the religion based encyclopedias. John Carter (talk) 18:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Requested articles, Category:Stubs, Category:Wikipedia_maintenance_categories_sorted_by_month... and we still have the relatively easy Category:Articles to be expanded and Category:Articles that need to be wikified, despite the deletion of their primary templates.. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 11:20, 20 December 2014 (UTC).

I have doubts about the usefulness of making any special effort to reify these arbitrary classifications of people. As discussed at Hispanic–Latino naming dispute, Latino is a term of recent origin and arbitrary coverage. The article suggests it is a social "ethnicity" rather than a "race"; if so, well, don't hippies and Juggalos and hackers rate the same concern, having shared language and culture? Yet it's usually treated like a race, to the exclusion of obvious rival classification schemes like Aztecs and Mayas, or at least Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. There is a political disease in the U.S. of collecting this narrow and vague data by census, then having short-sighted and scheming politicians look at their precincts and divide all their policies into short term sops to "whites" and "blacks" and "Latinos" according to stereotype top issues for the three - thereby arbitrarily racializing politics, and substituting these racial stereotypes for the real needs of individual constituents. Now Wikipedia is no better than its sources and many sources speak of Hispanics and Latinos, but given a choice, I'd like to hope that editors would focus on articles that delve deeply and broadly into the heritage of all Californians rather than dividing them into these arbitrary categories. Wnt (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Without getting into a debate about the nature of race or ethnicity, Hispanos in common American use refers to Spanish-language-speaking people from whatever country (not just Spain) and their descendants. It is a term of self-identification and it is a classification of people recognized by the American government and it is a category of people studied academically. Now, are the titles of the articles mentioned by Antandrus and me right? ~~Nah, I'm hinting pretty strongly that it should be Hispanics in California etc. or some such with the current name and Latinos in California as redirects.~~ But should the article exist? Yeah, obviously. Carrite (talk) 18:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'll take that last part back based on this from the lead of the "Naming Dispute" WP piece cited above: "Hispanic thus includes persons from Spain and Spanish-speaking Latin Americans but excludes Brazilians while Latino excludes persons from Spain but includes Spanish-speaking Latin Americans and Brazilians." I believe that is accurate. Carrite (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wnt has a point, but I am referring to a specific set of articles (the ones dealing Mexican-American migrant workers come to mind) that definitely belong in Wikipedia and need work. This is not exclude articles on other distinct ethnic groups in California. Armenians and Portuguese come to mind, assuming there is sufficient material to support articles on them. Coretheapple (talk) 19:54, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seasonal Greets!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2015 !!!

Hello Jimbo Wales, May you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you a heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New year 2015.
Happy editing,
The Herald : here I am 14:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to user talk pages with a friendly message.

Wikipedia needs to be ready for North Korea

I recognize that there is still some uncertainty about whether the Sony Pictures Entertainment hack was really motivated by desire to censor The Interview (2014 film) [title pending renaming]. But if it is true, then the hackers, emboldened by unprecedented victory, could soon be attacking sites like Wikipedia that distribute inconvenient facts. I think that surrender should not be an option for us, even if we had to resort to vandalism in order to distribute information about things like the "kwalliso".

What this means is that WMF needs to take comprehensive action to ensure that there is absolutely as little "confidential" information in any of its computer systems as possible. That includes in the resources for Arbitrators, employees, developers... anybody. There shouldn't be any old financial information from donors lying around waiting to be stolen. Any libel bait that has been treated as too secret for admins to look at (such as pedophile allegations) ought to be printed out on paper and stored in a safe in the WMF office, then cryptographically overwritten. Even e-mail contact addresses might be proxied out to some highly secure external site, so that the hackers can't figure out who is who if (when) they break in and want to threaten the people they don't like.

Meanwhile, we ought to think about our policies. WP:Outing already mentions "opposition research" rather than mere disclosure of an editor's identity as a standard, but we need to make sure it works like that. Even if a North Korean upload makes it clear that someone has a string of sockpuppets (by publishing all the checkuser data on the site at once), we should not allow ourselves to be drawn into internal battles to purge people like that from office while we are attacked from the outside, but should be ready at least to declare a blanket amnesty allowing anyone in such a position to put his house in order peacefully. We should be ready in extremis to revoke all passwords and re-register every account, starting with those with disclosed and committed identities that can be verified, then using them to prepare interview questions for others on IRC that could only be answered by the longtime users (no amount of cramming could prepare a NK hacker to explain how an administrator decided on a case about a particular user last year).

We should also have some notion how to fight back. The most obvious way, by documenting the regime's crimes against humanity, we should be doing anyway. But given that no one in North Korea will see a Wikipedia page unless their government desires it, maybe we should be ready to cut off the access of their privileged few to the site at our end if we need to retaliate for something. Or perhaps we could penalize a hacking attack by overtly advertising efforts of groups that North Korea dislikes in the main site banner. We should not leave NK hackers with the impression that there is nothing to lose by taking a shot at us. Wnt (talk) 18:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Calm and Carry On. Nothing much has changed. Security measures are pretty much ineffective when humans are involved in the system, because spear phishing is usually the easiest way to break into any system. If you want to keep something confidential, don't put it online, don't email it, and most definitely, don't share it with ArbCom, WMF or anybody else. Jehochman ^Talk 18:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's what some people have been telling various Sony employees, but you should give a guy tips about how to avoid being raped before it happens, not use them to blame him for it afterward. I bet there's something that WMF can still do now to reduce the amount of information at risk of being stolen, even though the people it concerns no longer can do anything about it. Wnt (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We are just a neutral encyclopedia project. We have not produced a comedy about assassinating their leader. We have better things to do than to prepare for a threat that does not exist. Everyking (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You really think they only object to that one thing in all the world? Wnt (talk) 19:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We are hardly the only information source on the Internet that paints an unflattering picture of North Korea. I don't think there's any call for panic here. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:33, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia resembles North Korea and its practices a lot, of course not in the same dimensions, but still. Wikipedians censor all criticism, and most are afraid to question authorities, and if somebody does, he's getting attacked like it happened here.183.222.99.247 (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are certain resemblances, because Wikipedia is a fundamentally communist enterprise. As such, like North Korea, we accumulate control over extensive public resources in the hands of a few who can become prone to ideological or baser sorts of corruption. And because it is online we are prone to a sort of cyberbullying - which combines spying, overwrought concerns about the details of what that spying uncovers, and fear to oppose those behind the bullying. That said, we have several major bulwarks to defend us: we don't own any concentration camps, we have already licensed the world to reuse and rework our content as they wish, and we have many people who know better than to kowtow to censorship. That is not to say that Wikipedia will not eventually be corrupted beyond repair, but the process is slow, and we have some control over how quickly it progresses, and we can be ready to replace it with something better that includes all its useful content when the end finally comes. If we grow old we all know how that feels. But if there are reasons to criticize Wikipedia, the fact that its founder has allowed us a way to have a wide-ranging and quite critical discussion of the people who gave him $500,000 which he has graciously donated charity... that's about the last spot I'd pick to start digging. Wnt (talk) 23:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikimania Pyongyang here we come! bd2412 T 00:01, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Propaganda: "Wales has graciously donated $500,000 to charity."[11] Fact: Not one penny of the $500,000 has been donated to charity,^{[citation needed]} graciously or otherwise. Wales says he will use it to start his own foundation "dedicated to furthering human rights." Writegeist (talk) 16:15, 19 December 2014 (UTC) (Adding) Following these comments administrators Jehochman and Wifione paid me a visit to let me know I would be blocked if I made any further corrections to errors of fact on this page or questioned the preferred narratives. (Administrators characterizing documented corrections as "personal attacks" and "incivility" when neither is present sends a clear message.) Therefore I ask others who have not yet been strong-armed by this delightful duo to be vigilant and diligent in this and other threads here while I go into hiding : ) Writegeist (talk) 20:42, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So Wales is going to start his own foundation? It certainly looks this way. Otherwise why would he hire a human rights lawyer full-time to work for him for the next month to research organizations to donate his award to? Why not to look it up on Wikipedia? Mr. Wales, could you please be more specific: are you going to donate the money to an existing foundation or you're going to start your own? 187.111.3.166 (talk) 17:08, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Correction taken, but I like human rights too. :) It's easy to criticize the UAE, yes, but I think Arab Spring has lowered my expectations from that part of the world. In the 1990s I was convinced that human rights flowed from natural law and were self-evident, and in concept I continue to believe this; but I have gradually been forced to admit that it is not so easily self-evident as I would think, and that the vital characteristics of Western culture owe much in particular to Christianity. Not every culture is founded around exhortations of universal love and the leadership of one willing to face execution under censorship law to atone for others' wrongdoings. We have to look at the facts on the ground and realize that as bad as things are, fomenting revolution in UAE could easily result in an even worse situation^[12] - in which case, what exactly would be the purpose for Jimbo to spit on their money and throw it in their face? We should be happy enough that UAE is honoring Wikipedia instead of banning it, which would be all too feasible even in a secular NATO country like Turkey where Erdogan comes up with something new to complain about every month. If Jimbo takes this as a sign that they may be open to hear other ways of doing things, and uses the money to help offer some useful suggestions, then this is progress. To lead people toward human rights is universally beneficial, whether it is to make a revolution better in its effect, or to encourage a Juan Carlos type of voluntary transition, or merely to make the emir think twice before he orders people to pick up the stones. Wnt (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Jehochman generally. I guess the only thing that I would add is that Wikipedia needs to be alert to not link to sites carrying, as primary sources, emails and other hacked personal information. I don't know what our policies are on that, but I think we have a moral obligation to refrain. Coretheapple (talk) 16:37, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:EL greatly constrains links to illegally distributed copyrighted material. The letters from Sony have been much broader - too broad, according to news organizations, with whom I agree. Though we don't like to clear copyright violations, we should not hold back the underlying information itself (e.g. the number of non-white non-women earning the highest salaries) as published by reliable sources. It is reasonable to say it shouldn't have become known, but now that it is... it's our role to cover it fairly. Wnt (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Edit 2014

Just thought that I'd bring this nice and inspiring video produced by Victor to your attention. --Pine^✉ 20:01, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I dislike this video. "Maudlin" gets close, with a measure of "crass," given that it happens to be donation season... Carrite (talk) 04:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think its a fine idea but I think the video focuses too much on articles focusing on controversial events of the past year. Comes across more as a year-in-review rather than the development of a reference. As for the timing, Id rather see a video like this for fundraising purposes than current banner which as been argued as misleading and focuses only on giving the Foundation money rather than recruiting editors. Most people donate because they believe they are supporting Wikipedia (which is true, but indirectly) a resource that is valuable to them personally. Thelmadatter (talk) 19:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it would be a very good idea if we could, somehow, incorporate into the fundraising banner something to recruit additional editors as well. Particularly useful might be some sort of link or group of links to specialized user groups, like groups relating to developing student editors or classroom editing, retired users, editors who are experts in their fields, like academics, and others. Some sort of attempt to promote contributions with perhaps links to pages relating to developing underrepresented minorities, like women and smaller ethnic groups, would be useful as well. John Carter (talk) 20:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a video of software engineers drinking lattes in a San Francisco Starbucks and the viewers can see their cups becoming empty and them looking all sad while a cello plays plaintively in the background? As one of them starts to wipe away a tear, a stark cut to a graphic over: "For Only Five Dollars You Can Buy a WMF Programmer a Coffee." It could be called Our Final Video to make sure that people watch it... Carrite (talk) 05:07, 20 December 2014 (UTC) Joke fixed. Carrite (talk) 05:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So that rather familiar music is by Andy R. Jordan, not this guy? How sweet. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:33, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sarcasm only goes so far, Tim, before it fails to illuminate and just sounds snarky. "Starbucks" no longer signifies "urban hip" but rather more mainstream slightly hip and middle class. I live in a town so small that it has only two Starbucks. Hip San Franciscans have a much wider variety of hip coffees to choose from. As long as the WMF is headquartered in San Francisco, its employees will inevitably be immersed in the San Francisco lifestyle. Think of it as the Corvallis lifestyle writ grander. So what? Criticizing the software output is just fine. Blame the bosses. Trashing the workers? Less so. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:35, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That was pretty nicely written snark, Jim, sorry you didn't like it. Maybe we should start a new thread about whether WMF using scare tactics, shock email headers, and false intimations about the state of the bank balance in the name of donation maximization is appropriate behavior for the SF office. There's a discussion perking on the Wikimedia-l list (December archive HERE) — "Our final email" was the actual header used on a spam piece to former donors, I understand. So you'll forgive me for being dyspepsic over melodramatic propaganda videos just this week... Carrite (talk) 05:44, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is a very big difference between "our final email" meaning we aren't pestering you any more this year, and "our final email" meaning we are padlocking the doors and have laid off all our employees. Today, I visited a very important vendor I've done business with for 30 years. They close forever December 31, leaving several dozen people without jobs. I don't think that anyone smart fears a Wikimedia shutdown. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright concerns with Wikibooks' suicide instruction manual

Mr Wales, the part of Wikibooks that details suicide methods contains a lot of material of dubious origin. Much of the material appears to have been pasted from Nathan Larson's SuicideWiki by User:Leucosticte. SuicideWiki appears to have been compiled from a variety of sources, including but not limited to Usenet postings. Even if that wiki had a Wikipedia-compatible license, the original authors would need to be properly identified and credited. Since SuicideWiki no longer exists, it is difficult to know if the phrase "Cold water extraction (CWE) is a well-known technique that is used to extract opiates from pharmaceutical drugs that contain a combination of opiates" occured first here in 2011 or on SuicideWiki, but it didn't appear on Wikibooks until 2014. This page implies that another wiki may also be a source of some of this suicide information. With only a few active admins on Wikibooks, perhaps you can round up a few volunteers to look into this situation? Thanks. Nasal Ant Horn (talk) 21:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like Wikibooks has discussed this article at length ( [13] ). I don't think a Wikibooks contributor should have to defend himself here; nor should we assume that he didn't write a post on Usenet or a different Wiki (or text that those sources plagiarized, etc.) Since this is your fourth edit you may not be familiar, but this seems a bit like "WP:Forum shopping" here. I'd say it is best to bring it up on Wikibooks and leave it to the Wikibooks regulars to work through it. Copyright infringement from abandoned text that was publicly released would be improper, but it isn't an immediate threat and so it can be fixed by routine editing if need be. I don't believe for a moment that discussing methods used has to lead to increased rates of death; for example, reading briefly through that Toxicology section it occurs to me that those interested in suicide intervention might use "Nembutal" as a way to get searchers at risk to come to their hopefully beneficial website. Wnt (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no mention of copyright in that discussion. To be frank, I don't think that the tiny Wikibooks community has the desire or skills to deal with copyright questions. Wikipedia has a lot more expertise in that area. Nasal Ant Horn (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, User:Leucosticte won't be commenting here, since he has been bl;ocked by the ARBCOM for other reasons. Nasal Ant Horn (talk) 00:45, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, Wikibooks (not to mention Wikiversity) does not have the administrative structure to deal with this person, and frankly the matter should be referred to WMF legal. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 01:05, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Credit where credit is due

I'd like to make a public statement of appreciation for the work that User:LiAnna (Wiki Ed) and her colleagues at Wiki Ed have been doing. If you look at Wikipedia:Education noticeboard#Update from Wiki Ed, 16 December, you can see a model of being genuinely responsive to concerns from the editor community. Given how there have been so many incidents about some staff at WMF not always hearing editors' feedback, this is a refreshing case of doing it "right". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Tryptofish! The feedback is appreciated. --LiAnna (Wiki Ed) (talk) 00:20, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The arbcom

There are 3006 very active Wikipedians.

2013: A total of 1039 ballots were cast (including duplicates) and 923 votes were determined to be valid

2014: "A total of 643 ballots were cast (including duplicates) and 593 votes were determined to be valid."

593 votes is 19.72% of the total number of very active Wikipedians, leave alone not very active ones.

In any democratic community an election with such votes count would have been declared illegitimate. What about Wikipedia? 202.65.212.101 (talk) 00:23, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@202.65.212.101:, there was no quorum requirement for the election, and suffrage requirements were very low. If you have any specific suggestions for improving participation next year, we'd love to hear about it at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2014/Feedback. — xaosflux ^Talk 00:36, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's worthwhile to question the legitimacy of an ArbCom that is so utterly unrepresentative of the community. In this context it is easier to understand why, year after year, despite an ever-changing cast of characters, the ArbCom continues to demonstrate contempt towards the community it is supposed to serve. I think we would do well to explore other structures and mechanisms that could be more reflective of our ethos of openness and inclusiveness. Everyking (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:The Committee is insider wiki-politics; it takes a fair amount of time investment to vote wisely. A reasonable interpretation is that many editors are content enough with the general function of the site not to feel compelled to get involved.NE Ent 02:54, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect exactly the opposite is the case: the low participation indicates that many editors are not content, and are disenfranchised. I know I am, which is why I did not participate. Viriditas (talk) 03:32, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Both of those things may be true for different people. I chalk it up to poor advertising of the election, combined with dramatically less coverage of Arbcom in the Signpost. Cases this year have been generally more mundane as well, with one or two exceptions. All these things lead to apathy. Carrite (talk) 11:38, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but NE Ent's explanation rings demonstrably false in my eyes, as it appeals directly to the fallacy of the squeaky wheel. In any case, I don't consider myself apathetic, just tired of the facade of managed oligarchy that is Wikipedia. It seems like, at least to me, there's a cult of "the wrong decision is the right decision", and I have simply stopped recognizing the legitimacy of its administrative role and function. Viriditas (talk) 23:51, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The advertisement of this election was shitty. We shall do better next year, quote me. (Congrats to the new Arbcom and thanks for your effort to those of you who were not elected, by the way). Carrite (talk) 04:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Carrite: We are trying to capture any ideas now so they can be incorporated for the next election. Your ideas are welcome at WP:ACE2014/F, even if you don't have a solution please leave a note about what you think the problem was.— xaosflux ^Talk 04:22, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It should have been on Central Notification, for starters. A dismissable banner headline to all users wouldn't be totally off the wall. Carrite (talk) 04:28, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Carrite: I am pretty certain it was notified through the watchlist banner (as that's how I found the link to vote). Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As a moderately active editor for over five years, I spent a fair amount of time studying the candidates for the second time this year. I developed my own personal ranking of the candidates, and eight of my preferred nine candidates were elected. The one who made it without my vote was very close to my personal threshold. Last year's results were similar, in my experience. My perception is that Wikipedia voters are more diligent on average than voters for city council races in the U.S., where a pretty or handsome face, innocuous surname, and well-designed campaign sign yields election night victory. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:16, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it would matter how it is advertised; the system itself is fundamentally flawed, and users seem to be realising that over time - and that's without prompting either. I'm not convinced a sufficient number of people here are "content", really. Feedback is always sought through various means about the system or the election process or particular cases, but nothing meaningful is done with it (and sometimes it is not even acknowledged) so lessons are rarely learned - and sometimes, even the feedback process is also marked with unnecessary bureaucracy. And for that matter, if feedback is genuinely so valuable, surely the feedback given at one venue can be noted without requiring the original user providing the feedback to repeat it at yet another venue. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:51, 20 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas
	Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and your family xx 5 albert square (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Limit for (sourcered) gossip ?

Hello Sir! First though, I hope my previous "analogue picture suggestion" hasn't given You the inconveniences You feared. If so, I'm indeed sorry. To the matter, which I feel possibly could be of some help in general. Wikipedia isn't a news agency, nor a tabloid. Hence, if possible, would I like to hear Your opinion about well sourcered indeed, but still gossip ? To be concrete, do You think contradicting statements from different bosses and spokespersons for Microsoft about the upcoming sales strategy of Windows 10 is of any encyklopedical value ? Merry Chistmas, in any case. Boeing720 (talk) 10:14, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Followup to your earlier action.

Did you intend to follow up on Cultural Marxism, or was that a one-and-done action? Hipocrite (talk) 15:38, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]