Talk:The Smurfs

The article has:

The cast included some of the greatest voice actors ever:

Can anyone think of a NPOV way to re-write this? --John Lynch 09:22, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I think I can :p just changed the sentence to ...included a number of renowned voice actors -- Ferkelparade 08:49, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Smurf Communism article for deletion :/

The Smurf Communism article has been nominated for deletion, again. [1] The last one, 4 months ago, failed. Please vote to keep this article. --Larsinio 16:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, of course it failed, because for some reason the 19 sockpuppets who voted in the last one, had their votes count--64.12.117.12 14:30, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

--64.12.117.12 14:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Section on Father Abraham ??

I think there should be a section on the popular "Father Abraham and the Smurfs" records that were released in late '79 early '80 ? --Sf 12:01, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Porno popups?

Can someone using IE or another browser that shows unrequested pop-ups check whether any of the external links pop up porno banners, or something? An anon claimed that she saw something like that happening, but I haven't been able to reproduce it.--Eloquence*

Communism?

This article ought to include some treatment of the common allegation that the Smurfs were communists. See [21] for a good example with some evidence. Personally, I don't believe that the Smurfs were intentionally designed by Peyo to be communists, but I do think that he held left-wing values which ended up being expressed in the Smurf world. I read all the original Smurf comics when I was a kid, and I distinctly remember that they explicitly disparaged money and greed. Also, the Smurfs were constantly exhorted to work for the good of the community, and many clearly moralistic plotlines involved one of the Smurfs shirking his duties and disaster resulting. --Redquark 23:31, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• Good point perhaps you'd like to support my planned additions of "fascist propagada controversy" to the GI Joe article, I too have credible sources[22]--64.12.117.12 14:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

license of smurf logo

Are we allowed to use the Smurf logo? Surely it must be trademarked/copyrighted to someone? -- 202.154.105.13 00:28, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Story comments, for consideration and possible inclusion:

-An episode of the cartoon show revealed that Gargamel's hatred for the Smurfs began when he suffered an accident while still a student of magic, and believed a Smurf had caused it. In reality, it was caused by his own older self, who had traveled back in time.

-Smurfette was created by Gargamel, using a magic formula, as one of his traps for the Smurfs; originally, she was ugly and evil, but was later "purified" by Papa Smurf. Sassette was created by the "Kid Smurfs" using the same formula.

-The show created many original characters, including Laconia, a fairy who had lost her voice, and had to communicate by sign language. Obviously, she was introduced to create awareness of deafness among children. -Wilfredo Martinez

Smurf Blue

Smurfs are either blue because of skin pigmentation, blood color, or because they're little tiny Picts (though I can't exactly see them drinking from the skulls of butterflies). If their blood is blue, they can't be using red hemoglobin. Since silver tarnishes bluish, my guess is that their blood is silver-based. This could make them valuable ingredients for Gargamel's magic, or to sell. (This train of thought was inspired by the question "what color does a Smurf turn when you choke it?") --BlueNight

Since silver tarnishes bluish, my guess is that their blood is silver-based.

No, silver and oxygen turn black, copper makes blue blood, see hemocyanin.

what color does a Smurf turn when you choke it

Depriving a Smurf (and its blood) from oxygen will turn it and its blood colorless (white). MH 16:58, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Smurf Emmys

The Smurfs cartoon series one a number of Emmy awards. Would anyone like to help me compile a list of nominations and wins? :) --b. Touch 01:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is a common misperception (perhaps spun by NBC public relations) The Smurfs were nominated multiple times for Emmys, but they never won. - this correction is based on a search of the [Emmys' official online database]. Bwithh 16:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

what about the whole comics universe?

the smurfs universe extends way past just cartoons! there were dozens of bande desinees about smurfs! (see: Franco-Belgian_comics)

Smurf war

About the comment that a war broke out on whether "smurf" should be used as a verb or a noun. As I recall it, from a swedish translation of the comics, the war broke out due to an argument if smurf should be a replacement for the first or second compound of a word, i.e. if a "sledgehammer" should be a "sledgesmurfer" or a "smurfhammer" etc...

The word Smurf

Is the word "Smurf" originally english, dutch or scandinavian? It's found in english, dutch and swedish, but it's unlike french Schtroumpf or german Schlumpf... When I look at old comics, I find that dutch used the word in 1969, and Sweden in 1975, so I begin to think it's a dutch word?

I looked at the Dutch page, and it seems the word "Smurf" originally was Flemish.

As I've added to the page, 'Smurf' is originally the Dutch name for les Schtroumpfs. The first appearance of Smurf is exactly as old as the first appearance of Schtroumpf, as the French magazine Spirou and the Dutch translation Robbedoes appeared simultaneously (and still do, by the way). Flemish and Dutch are basically the same, certainly when written (I'm Flemish). Fram 11:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

anti-seminist and communist

There also have been allegations, correct or not, that the Smurfs were an allegory of capitalism and communism: the Smurfs, with their lack of any form of money, sharing of all goods and services, and their basic egalitarian ideals, are said to represent the ideal communist society, while their hated nemesis Gargamel, who plots to catch them and use them to turn base metals into gold, is said to represent capitalism at its worst.

Along the lines of allegations of the Smurfs being Communist were also claims about hidden anti-semitic propaganda in the show. According to believers of this notion, Gargamel was "dressed" to appear Jewish and his cat, Azrael, portrayed American Government as a puppet in the hands of the Jews. Azrael's name also sounds like "Israel", which adds a connotation.

I have removed these because I believe them to be original research. They can be restored if they are backed up. Saying "claims" and "allegations" doesnt cut it. Need specific names of people, publications and dates, or links to online citations. Stbalbach 01:30, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"smurf" when he should have said "smurf" ???

I'm confused. Is this a typo? Stbalbach 21:49, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it's real. It happened in a Smurf comic book, but I forget which one. Gargamel said something with "smurf" in it, and the reply he got was something like "It's smurf, not smurf, you idiot!". It was supposed to show that only real Smurfs know which "smurf" means what. — JIP | Talk 19:24, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it was Gargamel, but I remember that when Johan and Peewit first met the Smurfs, Peewit tried to communicate, but ended up using the wrong "Smurf" all the time. The language must contain very subtle nuances... =P

"Schtroumpf" is an invented word.

Sorry, I don't quite understand this. The article says that "Schtroumpf" means "salt" and also that it is an invented word. So which is it?--Fito 19:04, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

You haven't understood the secion properly. " "Schtroumpf" is an invented word. According to an interview with Peyo, the word came to him as he asked a friend for salt during lunch and, struggling to find the word that eluded him finally managed to say "passe-moi le schtroumpf" (pass me the salt)". I.e. Peyo lost the word for salt, during a momentarily brain lapse, and just came up with a nonsense word while he was speaking. The real French translation for salt is "(le) sel", thus "passe-moi le sel", I don't know if the section needs rewriting.

Obviously, yes.

Actually you have the story incorrect, "Schtroumpf" means what-ch-ma-call-it, Peyo could not think of the word salt at the time for some reason and said pass him the whatchamacallit, he later used it for the characters he created - the Smurfs.

Please sign your contributions (four "~"). And it is you who are wrong, Schtroumpf does not mean whatchamacallit, it was an expression made up there and then, not a usual word to replcae a word you can't remember. Whatchamacallit is a dictionary word, Schtroumpf is a made up term. The article as it stands now is quite correct in the descritpion of the origin of the term. Fram 20:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Schtroumpf does mean whachmacallit - it is flemish slang for the word whachamacallit. Pvcblue 22:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Pvcblue, sorry, but you haven't got the faintest clue what you are talking about. Please give me one serious source that states that schtroumpf was an existing word (official or slang) for whatchamacallit in whatever language you like before Peyo used it. The article as it stands gives a good reference for the fact that it was an invented word. Fram 14:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Agian YOU are wrong Fram - this is a quote directly from a Hanna and Barbera press kit for the Smurfs that I own - "Peyo's great love for fairy tales inspired and molded the characters. He arrived at the name by accident. One night at dinner he asked his father to pass the salt and pepper, calling them "Schtroumpf", a french colloquialism meaning "watchamacallit". In dutch it was translated to "smurf". --Pvcblue 07:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for providing us with a source for your statements. You were wrong in claiming that it is a flemish colloquialism anyway (your source says it French, which makes at least more sense), and your source is contradicted by every other source I have read, including interviews with Peyo and the recent biography I referenced. It was not his father, but André Franquin, and it was an invented word, not a colloquialism. You can find the story here, here, here, ... The word Schtroumpf is not included in dictionaries [23], and is discussed in Language publications [24] as an invented word that parodies whatchamacallits like "truc" or "chose". Finally, the French Wikitionary [25] clearly says that it is invented by Peyo. Fram 08:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You said to give one source to back up my claim, I did, and you just ingnore the importance of it? The source is HANNA & BARBERA the company that brought the Smurfs to TV Cartoon world!! It is from thier presskit from info Peyo gave them to use for selling the show to different markets! Now if Peyo gave them the info and they are the Hanna and Barbera, this would give them more of a belief factor than anything you say, they did work directly with him, they did interview him and got info from him for the presskit. --Pvcblue 18:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't ignore the importance for it, I wondered what was your source, and I thanked you for providing one. Strangely, it contradicts every other source, even direct interviews with Peyo. As I don't have your source and don't know where it is available, I can't judge it any further, and I don't see in your quote that the info comes from Peyo, just that it comes from a Hanna-Barbera press kit. Want another source? "Les Schtroumpfs 1", textes d'introduction de Thierry Groensteen, edited by Rombaldi and Dupuis in 1986, ISBN 2-8001-1401-0, page 6, again gives the same origin (invented a word when asking Franquin for the salt) in different words. The most accessible and still definite source I can give you, apart from all the others, is the official André Franquin website [26], where he again relates the exact same story, but in his own words (i.e. not all sources are just repeating one another), and where he literally says that Peyo "forged" (i.e. invented) the word Smurf. So we have interviews with the two people involved declaring that it was an invented word, we have articles by linguists saying that it is not included in dictionaries, we have all kinds of sources agreeing that it is invented, and we have one Hanna-Barbera press kit that says something different. That was your source, and it is logical that you assumed it was correct, but it isn't. Fram 19:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Fram - I emailed IMPS and sent them the story I have from the Hanna Barbera PressKit, asking them if this was how it happened and they told me everything was correct except for it was not his dad but his friend and that Schtroumpf is a colloquialism meaning "watchamacallit".- pvcblue

Great. I don't believe a word of it though. Too bad! I have given references that can be verified (check out WP:V), as long as yours are only reported by you, they are not to be used in Wikipedia. Get IMPS to put the story of the origin of the word Schtroumpf on their website, and then you have a good source to be used here as an alternative story to what Peyo himself reported. If you can't get IMPS to put it on the website, get some French linguists over here that can confirm that the word Schtroumpf existed before Peyo used it. Note that the French wikipedia (where most of the contributors probably know French) does not refer to a whatchamacallit or another colloquialism, and actually refers to the Franquin website I have given above. Fram 12:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I am French. For me the word "schtroumpf" doesn't mean anything - even in slang - but the little blue creatures. I am very interested about the origins of the name, because I've always thought it was derived from the german "strumpf" (= sock, and prononced just like "schtroumpf" in French), because of the strange little hats they have. So it looks like it is only a popular etymology !! But my question is : does "strumpf" means anything in Belgium (country in which, apart from French, Dutch and German are spoken)?

Strumpf (or Smurf or Schtroumpf) has absolutely no meaning in Dutch. I don't know enough German to give an answer for that. I don't think Peyo was consciously thinking about schtrumpf when he invented the word or the hat of the Smurfs, but it is impossible to be certain that he didn't unconsciously knew and used the German word of course, even though there is no real indication for it. Fram 20:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

All this smurfy smurfing and no mention of Gargamel's cat?

Poor, poor kitty. Left out of the Wikipedia. Azrael would be rather ticked off to know he/she has been left out! I added the link there to the Smurfs. OK, there's a line on List_of_fictional_cats, but that's it.

Satanic smurfs? How crazy is too crazy for the wiki?

I just happened to surf (or should I say smurf?) on this article while browsing through the wiki, and, well, I have to say that the part about "Satanic rumors" is just plain absurd. I know we're supposed to cover the weirdest viewpoints, but this is really pushing it. A bit like devoting a few paragraphs in the article about the Moon to the question of where it is made out of cheese... -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 20:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

It was a real rumor. My sister was told at CCD that Papa Smurf used pentagrams and played checkers with wizards, ergo he was New Age therefore Satanic. She thought this was nuts and it was never stated by any priest we had. It did exist though.--T. Anthony 16:21, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact that it was a real rumor makes it worthy of mention. It's part of the entire social impact that the Smurfs had. [[User:|Anthopos]] 20:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me if I put my thought on this "Satanic Rumor", and just plain and simple as you read it; "It's Just A Rumor." People will just create anything for news, gossip and stupidity just like this one. How can a cartoon be so Satanic? Are people so gullable to beleive a story like that? I've been a smurf fan since 1981 and yes, I've heard the rumors about the smurfs being satanic here and there around the town where I live and not for one second have I ever believed that story. ~T. Anthony, you stated "My sister was told..." and I leave it at that. Of course she was told, It was just a rumor. ~Anthopos, you stated "It's part of the entire social impact that the Smurfs had." What social impact? The Impact that (and I quote wikipedia on this) "The Smurfs secured their place in North American pop culture in 1980, when the Saturday-morning cartoon, The Smurfs, produced by Hanna-Barbera Productions, finally debuted on NBC from 1981 to 1990. The show became a major success for NBC, spawning spin-off television specials on an almost yearly basis. The Smurfs was nominated multiple times for Daytime Emmy awards, and won Outstanding Children's Entertainment Series in 1982–1983." Whoa! How Satanic is that? And to end what I call and I quote myself; "Somebody had nothing better to say about the Smurfs and decided to start a rumor" get over it. The Smurfs are coming back out in 2008 to start the begining of a trilogy movie. Could that be the Anti-Christ of the Smurfs? Too funny! SmurfOne 07:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Satanic allegations against the Smurfs are well documented. It's part of the "Satanic Panic" phenomenon, which is part of the wider cultural wars in the US. See the "Further Reading" section in Allegations of Satanism in popular culture. -- Stbalbach 12:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Caption

Regarding the caption for the illustration of Papa Smurf and Smurfette:

Papa Smurf Says, "They're All Pink Inside."

Is that for real? It sounds kind of off-color to me. -- Coneslayer 21:55, 2005 July 19 (UTC)

It appeared to be vandalism. I've reverted it. Best, Meelar (talk) 21:57, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

It's back, reverting now. Good fodder for BJAODN, though. Karmafist 18:39, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Smurfette Runs Pub

Smurfette being the only female Smurf would be running a pub I know where mostly men show up, except the good looking female bartender manager.

Smurf Height

Here is written they are 15cm tall. If you see the smurfs walking through Gargamel's house, standing next to Gargamel's feet, being hunted by his cat, standing next to other animals, they look MUCH shorter to me than 15cm. 213.119.9.126 10:34, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Their height was very inconsistent, which is oddly consistent with the kind of fairy tale style they were going for. In tall tales and fairy tales characters become whatever heighth is needed for the story without any explanation. Hence they were described as three apples tall, and when needed they maybe were that tall, but much of the time they were as small as ten centimeters. Although they usually weren't smaller insects. Also a toon's world is not always the same in proportions.--T. Anthony 08:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The only apple that makes sense in measuring smurfs is the crab apple, which is at most (according to the page) 4cm (in the wild), ~1.57", tall, making smurfs ~12cm (~4.7", 3x1.57") tall. -Eep² 15:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Music at Mother Nature's home

From which classical piece is the melody, which is always heard, when the smurfs are at Mother Nature's house? 84.170.138.102 18:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Smurfs Music Video

Visit it at [[27]]. User:Kathywimmer 09:37, November 25 2005 (Pacific)

:That's just nonsense. I'm searching for the original theme at Mother Nature's home.

I found it by myself: The song is from Edvard Grieg - Morning mood 84.170.158.173

Do smurfs advocate safe sex?

It's always been a running joke that smurfs advocate safe sex. (yknow... their caps). Maybe we shld include a tongue-in-cheek section about that.

As long as we're along that line. Anyone has any idea how smurfs reproduce? I mean. There's only 1 female smurf...... baaaaaad cartoon.

The Smurfs actually do advocate safe sex, a crwaing of a Smurf hat shaped condom has been used in a safesex campaign in Belgium. Apart from that, Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia and tnogue-in-cheek sections (and own research and so on) are not such a good idea, so I think it's better to leave it out of it. Fram 12:03, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Really, I read that in a BD once, but I thought that was just a silly joke. 85.226.122.205 23:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

antagonist names

an editor added that "all antagonist names were jewish (such as) gargamel and azrael". a few antagonist names are not jewish as far as i can tell -- nemesis, agatha, clorohydress -- so the insertion is false. i don't know whether gargamel or azrael are, but i've removed the line until there's some evidence of this. Justforasecond 16:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting point. The other antagonists you name (Nemesis, Agatha, Clorohydress) are more recent additions to the story, possibly not even introduced by Peyo. I do also have a (very) vague recollection of one of the Johan and Peewit comics, where someone talks to a dragon Fafnir in characters that I remember as being Hebrew. I don't have the comic here, maybe someone can confirm this? -- Peter 12:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Klu Klux Klan

Regarding this recentlyt added entry:

Internet rumours have started recently, following Peyo's death, that linked the creator to the Ku Klux Klan and revealed several obvious white supremacist images in the Smurfs cartoons. The most obvious is the fact that all Smurfs wear white, semi-pointed caps reminiscent of Klan headwear, and that the leader, Papa Smurf, wears a red cap, just like the Ku Klux Klan leader, the "Grand Wizard". All Smurfs have strictly defined jobs, and they all look the same, which is also reminiscent of Nazi ideologies. All antagonists have Jewish names, most notably Gargamel and his cat Azrael. One episode that is mentioned frequently as having racist undertones features a beetle that bites the Smurfs, thereby turning them black. All black Smurfs are automatically evil and are portrayed as inarticulate (they can only utter one word) and violently insane. The cartoons also often showed the Smurfs dancing around a fire just like certain ritualistic Klan dances, and speeches by Papa Smurf are greeted by extreme euphoria from the other Smurfs, reminiscent of Adolf Hitler's Nazi propaganda speeches.

I'm not sure "Internet rumours" counts for Wikipedia:Verifiability purposes in looking at Original Research abd POV issues. If this is to be included a reliable source is recommended. --Stbalbach 16:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good you removed it. Bare in mind that I only know the cartoon not the comics. However the article on Azrael indicates it is the Angel of death in the Qur'an. I believe one of the bad wizards is named Balthazar which is not Jewish as far as I know. Gargamel seems to be a Medieval French name. The KKK cap is a cone, it does not look like a Phrygian cap. In the cartoon in least the bug turns the Smurfs purple.(but apparently in the comic it did turn them black--T. Anthony 11:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)) Singing or dancing around a fire is a communal activity in much of historical Europe and also linked to various boy scout type groups. And so forth.--T. Anthony 11:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Communism

From the Communism section:

It is now argued by some that Peyo meant to spread communist ideas through smurf cartoons. S.M.U.R.F. is translated by supporters of this theory as "Socialist Men Under Red Father" or "Soviet Men Under Red Father".

Given that they were originally called "Schtroumpfs," not "Smurfs," why is this in the article? tregoweth 02:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I had included your argument in the article, but it has been removed last month (during my holiday) as being POV. I don't see how pointing out the clear logical fallacy in an argument is POV, so if you and most others agree that this is not POV, we can reintroduce it. See comparison for the moment it got removed and the argument used. Fram 08:59, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Are the supporters claiming that Peyo intended SMURF as an acronym, or is that just their name for the Smurf communism theory? The article is a bit unclear on that. tregoweth 16:47, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be some indication in the article that the whole Smurf Communism thing is (rather obviously) intended as a joke? Nobody actually believes that "smurf" stands for "Socialist Men Under Red Father", and it's silly for the article to pretend otherwise. --Moss 19:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Cian Farel

This section is ridiculous and unfounded, I'm removing it from the main article and moving it here. Google gives no hits on this name, excepted for the Wikipedia article --Vanieter 02:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Cian

There is a character that is not widely known, Cian Farrel . He is Irish and he does not have blue skin. There is a song written about him by the poet Colin J. Brady:

                  I knew a man - who wasn't very tall;
                  His name is Cian - and he was awful small.
                  People used to laugh at him because he was bald;
                  I knew a man - who wasn't very tall!

Unfortunatly, this Smurf was never released as he was deemed politically incorrect.

The link to pvcblue site

I had added this first to pvcblue's talk page, but he deleted it without comment, so I put it here for everyones consideration

Pvcblue, this is not about a personal vendetta, you violate Wikipedia: external links (see "links normally to be avoided") by adding a site that is not "a unique resource" (violates point 1: the things you bring are already covered quite thoroughly by the other links in the article), and it is a website you own and maintain (violates point 3): furthermore, your forum had at the last count (i.e. last week) 18 members, which is not really an impressive reason to include it. Furthermore, your collection of PVC Smurfs is incomplete (not even showing an example of every Schleich number), and is thus less complete than e.g. BlueImps or non-listed sites like Sgt. Papas. Unless you can point out what info your site gives that other sites don't give in a better (more complete, more detailed) way, it adds nothing, and thus has no place there, as there are tens of other sites which are equally intersting and informative. We can and should have only the best, and yours isn't (yet) one of them. Fram 05:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

For your information Fram my site has been around since 1997, as for a comment about you remarks, they are not worth it, you are doing this out of spite, if ColbaltTony himself is working on my link to make it better and thinks it can stay where do you get off removing it? You are just a spiteful person - I don't care anymore, I have removed any info I added to the page, do not re-ad it as it comes from my site, and you can have your little page all to yourself, thank you for all the hatefulness you have shown. --Pvcblue 07:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not remark on the longevity of your site, and it is irrelevant. Discussing motives is irrelevant as well. Accusing me of personal attacks (as you did in your last edit summary) is quite serious, and should be substantiated. A criticism of a website and its contents is not a personal attack. Saying that someone does something out of spite is a personal attack though, albeit a minor one. I am not the only one that have removed your link, and I had not removed any of the other info you added, as I don't mind good info to be added. I don't own the page any more or less than you do. I don't think I have shown any hatefullness. I hope you stick around to make good contributions, but that does not mean that you or any of your edits are above criticism, just like mine aren't. Oh, and any info you added can be readded easily, as you have licensed it by adding it here. But anyway, it can be found on other sites as well. Fram 08:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict: this was added while I wrote my response above): + So I see, I remove this unnecessary discourse and you put it back, are you trying to start something? You say you are not but all your actions are aggresive and rude, with undertones of wanting to start something. Leave it be I was till you had to go and repost something that was NEVER posted. You are the aggressor here in every instance, just lay off and go back to your life! --Pvcblue 08:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You removed mypost as well, which is simply not done, so I reverted to the previous version. Apart from that, I don't understand what you mean by "repost something that was NEVER posted", I don't think I am capable of the impossible. Fram 08:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I have every right to remove a post on MY talk page that is intended for me - it is not a matter for everyone - you are harrassing me plain and simple - grow up. Also my response above is to your comment above it - how can it be done while you are writing it? More lies and half truths - leave me be and leave it alone! --Pvcblue 08:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you have the right to remove a post from your talk page, and I have every right to put it then on this article discussion page, where you no longer have the right to remove it. This is not harassment, this is a discussion of what should or shouldn't be in an article. This is exactly what the talk page is intended for. I posted it at your talk page first to try to resolve this between us, instead of here, bt since you clearly did not want to discuss it there, I had no choice but to bring it here. Oh, and you cansee in the history [28] of this page what I mean by edit conflict and what part you reacted to. You reacted to the post with time 07:28, not the one from 08:36. Don't accuse people of "more lies and half truths" for no reason, please. Fram 08:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

PVC Blue site

I looked at the site and didn't see it as link spam site. It seems like a hobbiest site. Can someone provide evidence that it is a spam site? Thanks. -- Stbalbach 12:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It is link spam in the sense that the linker is the owner. WP:SPAM has as the main articles for external link spamming Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines and Wikipedia:External links#Links normally to be avoided, and the latter of those specifies that linking to your own site should be avoided (point 3). Furthermore, the site is indeed a decent hobbyist site, but adds no obvious unique content beyond what the other links already do (as mentioned, the site e.g. doesn't have a complete list of pictures of all PVC Smurfs, something quite a few other Smurf collectors websites do have, e.g. the already linked blueimps). The original text of the link was way more spammy, but that was toned down luckily. Finally, it is very suspicious that after pvcblue himself stopped adding the link, three different newbies (well, two first timers and one second timer) added the link again. No evidence for it, but it looks very much like he (pvcblue) asked his forummembers or so to add the link in his place. Fram 12:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

As you can see here, there are lots of Smurf collector websites on the internet (hooray!), and we can't possibly add all of them, or even all the English language ones. We should only have the best or those that have a very specific and interesting scope, and that is why we have the current collection of links (iwithout pvcblue), with the homepage of the Smurf license holder, one of the largest infosites on PVC Smurfs (blueimps), one of the largest Smurf fora in English (bluecavern, not only for the PVC but also for the cartoons and so on), two specific rather complete sites about the cartoons, the IMDb site (for additional info, e.g. on the movies), and the not so informative but funny name generator. The only link I can see that would be useful is if there was a very good site about the Smurf comics history: otherwise I would prefer not to have more links than the current 7, and replace one of the current if a truly better one comes along. E.g. purely for the PVC Smurfs, Sgt Papas is a worthy candidate, if someone would feel that blueimps is inadequate (I don't), or the huge Osi site, to name just those two. I don't have a Smurf website, but I am a Smurf collector, and pvcblue is yet another good website, not "the excellent site that just has to be added" (TM). Just my two cents... Fram 13:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok agreed there needs to be vetting of sites. I don't know anything about Smurfs, this somehow got on my watchlist. PVCBlue, perhaps they can make a case for their site, instead of edit warring which gets nowhere. --Stbalbach 13:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Stbalback - I didn't start any edit war, Fram did, I innocently put my link on the site as I was interested in the page and adding info to the page. Fram then moved it, I had put it at the top of the list and he moved it to the bottom, Fram then removed it altogtether. I put it back, ColbaltTony who is a admin here helped me work on in it and found the link just fine. Then Fram went looking for any excuse to remove it - he goes on and on about how my site is inadequate in "his" opinion, yet it is because of my site that the owner of blueimps started making her site look so much better - as I have helped nearly all the smurfers out there who did have sites in the past to make them more graphically appealing. Finally someone else besides me saw this happening and started putting the link back when Fram would remove it. Fram tho would just not leave it alone, it was like they wanted to start something, then Fram posted a comment to my Talk page, which I did not want to get into a huge heated debate like this here with them so I ignored it and deleted it, and they posted it here, so now here you are, even after I tried to avoid ALL this crap. It seems to me Fram lives to stir up drama. If this person Fram has nothing better to do than remove links to sites with valid info, (I have a part of my site that has been down for a bit as I am working on it, that part has major information and media info on it but the updates are taking a while), and stalk the person whose link it is they need to grow up and get a life. I asked them to leave me be, but no they continue to harrass me into this, this is a insane situtation. --Pvcblue 16:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The start of this reply by pvcblue is correct. After that, well, ... First of all, I posted once to your talk page, you deleted it, and then I left it alone. This has to be the shortest example of "stalking" ever. What we have here is a disagreement, and as we both have the right to our opinion and to a discussion, this is not stalking. But lets look at the edit history, and see how far your story deviates from reality. First, you added your link to the top of the list and with some non-neutral language, so I put it at the bottom and made it more neutral. So far, this is what pvcblue describes. What next? "Fram then removed it altogether"? No, pvcblue put it back with his text at the top, with the remark "change your own not others". This was the start of the edit war. "ColbaltTony ... found the link just fine"? No, Cobaltbluetony (his actual user name) made the next edit [29], agreeing with my change and reverting yours. You then let it at the bottom of the list, but had to reset your original text again [30], which CobaltBlueTony again had to undo [31]. Then, after you twice reverted it, you finally seemed to agree [32]. But no, in the next edit, you just had to make your link much much longer [33]. After that, I came in again, not to remove it, but just to make it shorter [34]. You simply reverted it again without comment [35], and then shortened it very minimally [36]. Then, the next day, I did indeed remove it, with reasons, as I then had had the time to see if your link was good enough [37]. You just put it back without comment [38], after which user 195.92.168.167 was the second one to delete it [39]. You just put it back, without comments [40]. Cobaltbluetony then agreed that at least it was too long [41], but you for some reason removed his wikilink [42], which was reverted again by CobaltblueTony [43]. Then it was deleted again by 195.92.67.74 [44].

We are at this point a week after the first entry and my first comment, and I have deleted the link once. Quite an edit war I have had... Anyway, while the other editors take the time to explain why they make edits to your link or just delete it, you only put it back without a comment [45]. So yet another user (81.78.154.155) steps in and deletes your link, again explaining why [46], at which time first and only time contributor 58.170.1.153 steps in and puts it back without comment [47]. This is when I come in again and remove it, calling it finally linkspam (how to call it otherwise?). [48]. This is my second removal, after you constantly ignored all other users and all reasons given for the deletion. You then put it back, finally with a comment, but sadly it is a rather incivil and personal one [49]. Then 195.92.168.167 deletes it again [50], and two times contributor 60.229.173.157 adds it again without commentg [51]. 195.92.168.167 deletes again, 60.229.173.157 adds again, then pvcblue adds it yet again so it is now listed twice [52], one of them is then removed by stbalbach. 195.92.168.170 deletes it again, one time contributor Tigereyes1 adds it again [53], 195.92.168.170 deletes it again, another one time contributor Smurfy22 adds it yet again [54], after which I did my third deletion [55]. Three time contributor 71.125.241.83 adds it again [56], and 195.92.168.167 tries to find a compromise [57]. The End.

So, I have deleted the article three times after earlier tries to get some collaboration of pvcblue on making it a decent link failed, and after I researched the site and found it not good enough to warrant inclusion, and furthermore a violation of WP:SPAM. Pvcblue never responded to any of the edit summaries except by making a personal attack, he refused to discuss it on his talk page, and now portrays the case in quite a false light, again making personal attacks (which he has done on other places on this talk page as well), and not responding to the comments given (it is irrelevant if you helped other people setting up their site or not, that has no bearing on the value of your site). I have tried to keep this discussion impersonal and to the point, but you are making it hard to do so. Fram 20:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protection request

Since there seems to be consensus from everyone that the PVCBlue site should not be listed, yet multiple different anon IP's keep adding it back (either from the PVCBlue user or members of his site), I have put in a request to semi-protect the article. -- Stbalbach 21:12, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict Of Interest And Without Impartiality / Fram

To start, I am a member of 5 Smurf forums (excluding one of them that had nothing to do with this) - 1) Mushroom Village, 2) Blue Buddies 3) Blue Cavern/Blue Imps, & 4) PVC Blue and it seems that Fram (An editor at Wikipedia) does not edit the External Links accordingly to spam rules, and should not be editing since for him it is a conflict of interest and he hasn’t any impartiality. I have been following this discussion maybe a week after where this discussion took place and it seems to me this is all about competition, while one is allowed to have their website added , even tho it is with the intention to sell by the owner, which is against Wiki rules, - the other one most likely would like the same privileges as well, but fairly speaking here, Fram uses the word spam to edit any other website off the External Links while the websites he’s an Administrator/Member of (Blue Cavern/Kittys Cavern/Blue Imps) falls into the same category of “Spam” as the others who would like their website there as well. While all these websites DO have great information about “The Smurfs” and none are different from one another, all have the same intention that leads to other websites by the owner with intention to sell. Why is this being allowed? Has anyone checked out these websites to validate what is spam or not? I also have noticed that after an anonymous user by the name of Alex9891 has removed all 3 sites Fram continues to place the ones he is an Administrator/Member of as noted here: “04:54, August 31, 2006 Fram (Talk | contribs) (It's not because someone from the pvcblue camp vandalizes some links that those should be removed as well: readded the external links section like it was before the last actions)” This is also considered vandalism and conflict of interest and without use of impartiality. DevilSmurf 02:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions. I am no member or admin of Kitty's Cavern or Blue Imps, I am a moderator at BlueCavern only. I use the same username there, so that is hardly a surprise. I have explained above how I do edit the EL section following spam rules, and why pvcblue did not follow those (see WP:EL and the discussion above). Blue Imps does not sell Smurfs, nor does pvcblue (and the selling of Smurfs is one argument i did not use against his site). Mushroomvillage does, that is why it has been excluded before, but the subsection included in the links is an informative one and so it is included. I don't like mushroomvillage, but I don't remove the link. Bluecavern does not sell Smurfs, but one of the owners of the site also has an online Smurf shop, Kitty's Cavern, which again is not included in the EL. But the intention of the site (and of Blue Imps) is not to sell Smurfs or to lead people to the Smurf shop, the intention is to give the best info there is. Everyone can have a link to his or her site or shop on the sites, which would be stupid if your only aim was to get people to your shop.

The most important aspect though is that I have discussed why the sites that are now included give more or better info than the ones not included (especially pvcblue). BlueImps is a much more complete and informative site concerning Smurf collectibles (pvcblue has pictures of most, not all PVC figurines, and nothing more of info on them: Blueimps gives extra info on all of them). BlueCavern is a much larger forum (ten times the members), and hence can serve an interested collector better.

The discussion should be about what kind of links we need. Do we need a forum? If not, remove it from the list (after discussion!). If ww do need one, take the largest one (in English). Similarly, do we want or need a PVC collector site? If we do, take the most complete and informative one in English, which would probably be BlueImps or Sgt Papa's. Either way, pvcblue is redundant and adds no extra information beyond these sites, and thus violates WP:EL.

Finally, reverting an incorrect removal while giving a reason is not vandalism, and you shouldn't use that term so lightly. Fram 05:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

hi! I'm new at this but I have to agree with Fram's reponses, since he is following logic and Wikipedia rules properly. maybe pvcblue doesn't like the rules, but they seem very clear to me and this is all very immature. I also have a personal smurf website. the only website dedicated to Fake smurfs, I own almost 5,000 plus fakes that I have collected tirelessly over the past few years, yet I do not feel that hobby sites should be listed here as like Fram said, there are very few hobby sites that have definite information and serious value, to the history of the smurfs. it appears more like ego to me. and its wasting alot of people's times. Sites that I agree with is Blue Imps and Sgt Papa's and Blue Cavern and also some European sites that have great information and a large Kataloged value that documents smurfs in detail that are used as a resource tool for collectors.Mennoblue 22:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

---

In response to Mennoblue - you are anything but impartial nor new to this, you may be new to Wiki, but you have been on the forums for smurfs for a few years now. You are also a long standing member and moderator at BlueCavern forums with Fram, and as such you also do not have any impartiality in this matter Pvcblue 07:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Ebolaworld!

They had a lawsuit against Ebolaworld didnt they? --Johnston49er 02:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)