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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 76.67.82.230 (talk) at 01:54, 19 March 2020 (→‎Reaction). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Traits Section

I'm not entirely comfortable with the sentence: "Some otherkin (such as elves) claim they are allergic to Iron (and other examples of modern technology), whilst other Otherkin (such as dragons) claim that having no allergies is a sign of being an Otherkin."

It's the "such as elves" and "such as dragons" parts that bother me, specifically. That phrasing seems highly reflective of an otherkin POV (non-otherkin would not consider these individuals either elves or dragons), though I don't know of a better one that isn't far more cumbersome. I'm also mindful of the Paranormal RfA's finding that "Psychic" or "clairvoyant" and similar terms are cultural artifacts, not people or things which necessarily exist. A psychic may not have psychic abilities, nor does use of the term imply that such abilities exist. link It seems likely to me that similar reasoning would apply in this context, but that phrasing still bothers me. Perhaps because one is a mainstream cultural artifact and one is a cultural artifact of a much smaller group. --Jarandhel (talk) 15:27, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Replace with elfkin/elvenkin and dragonkin? — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oooh, good call! --Jarandhel (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recent publication

For those interested out there, it'd be worth looking into this article and adding information from it: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1525/nr.2012.15.3.65?uid=3739392&uid=2&uid=3737720&uid=4&sid=21100703680671 The abstract is a poor description of the article; it's actually quite decent an exploration. Librarywild (talk) 08:51, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre subculture

The reference to 'one of the world's most bizarre subcultures' at the end of the article resolves to a marketing textbook with no page reference. Is this good enough? Should this be removed as unreferenced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.109.145 (talk) 14:31, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's an opinion at the very least, and one that violates NPOV. Whether the source is valid or not, it shouldn't be there as is. --Tathar (talk) 21:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the Reaction section and phrased as "... has been called...", I believe that's neutral enough. The book was published by Taylor & Francis. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 21:34, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

About the furry fandom navbox

I recently requested that the furry fandom navbox include this article and one other, both of which have substantial relationships to the Furry fandom article and furries in general. Since a lot of furries identify as their anthropomorphic animal forms (per the Gerbasi survey and article, Furries from A to Z) and are therefore similar to otherkin in the same way that therians are, the relationship between these groups is hard to dispute. However, I noticed that User:Jeraphine Gryphon removed the navbox template, claiming that otherkin had nothing to do with the navbox. I'd like to discuss the reversion, because I don't agree that reverting it was best for the article. --Tathar (talk) 21:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my explanation went here: Talk:Species_dysphoria#Furry_fandom_navbox.3F. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 21:27, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for linking that. Perhaps the issue would be better resolved by addressing the other links instead? Even if otherkin and species dysphoria don't have a strong relationship to several of the links in the navbox, they're in a different section of the navbox anyway, they have a relationship to some other articles within that section despite its miscellaneous nature, they also have a relationship to a few other articles in the navbox, and they have a relationship to the article that the navbox is centrally focused on. Plus, there's the alternative of making the navbox collapsed by default. I remember from WP:NAVBOX that navbox links should be bidirectional; that is, if an article is linked to in a navbox, that article should also transclude the navbox. I'm going to go through WP:NAVBOX to see how well the navbox is following the guidelines though, since I can see other links in the navbox that are only tangentially related, such as Parahuman. --Tathar (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it just occurred to me that there's no category linking this article to the Furry fandom article, and categories tend to have looser guidelines regarding article relationships. My only question is, should the otherkin category be added as a subcategory of the furry category, the other way around, or should they both be part of some other category? --Tathar (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Skepticism?

"WikiProject Skepticism is a WikiProject dedicated to creating, improving, and monitoring articles which make claims related to science and philosophy." Does this article make such claims? I'm not so sure this article fits within the WikiProject it was recently added to. --Tathar (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the article may have been mistakenly added to the WikiProject due to an editor's mistaken belief that the WikiProject covers all articles about topics that people may be skeptical about, rather than the stated purpose of the WikiProject. I'd like to hear back from Dimadick about his reason for making the edit. --Tathar (talk) 12:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed their claims about health problems from coming in contact with iron. Dimadick (talk) 09:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Full disclosure: I identify as dragonkin. I do not make any relevant claims other than that I identify primarily as a dragon.) The article indicates that only some otherkin make that claim, and that there is disagreement whether such an allergy would have anything to do with an otherkin identity. Is that enough to place the entire group within the WikiProject? --Tathar (talk) 00:22, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By comparison, most articles on the New Age movement have been specifically included, even though not all proponents make wild claims. As with all Wikiprojects, the purpose is "To improve and clean up those articles which need help.", not to write polemics against the subject matter.Dimadick (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I was just concerned that the article's inclusion would result in those unfamiliar with the subject misunderstanding what claims are and aren't being made, and then editing the article based on their misconceptions and unintentionally reducing the article's overall quality. If that's not going to be an issue, then I'll take back my concerns about the article's inclusion. I still have concerns about the article's categorization in the WikiProject's list of topics however, since its current categorization requires the article to be about a subject that is religious in nature (nevermind the other issues with calling something a cult) and the article's subject simply isn't of a religious nature. At most, it is of a spiritual nature among those who identify as non-human on a spiritual level, but that basically amounts to "I have an X soul" or some similar identity claim. (Contrast this with the Kayan people (Burma) and the non-human ancestry claims that form the basis of their religion.) --Tathar (talk) 16:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, unsourced contributions and biased misconceptions would violate the NPOV policy and have to be removed anyway. As for the list of articles of this WikiProject, until a recent merger it focused on pseudoscience. The merger widened its scope to various typical subjects for skeptic publications, such as the paranormal and alternative medicine. Religious content is included but is not the sole focuse. Out of curiosity, has this subculture been influenced by traditional narratives of wolf-ancestors like Asena? Dimadick (talk) 07:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, such an influence is highly unlikely. Few, if any, otherkin make claims to non-human ancestry, and any such claims would be met with skepticism from within the community. Also, there's a strong sentiment across otherkin subcommunities that people should rely solely on their own observations and feelings to determine whether the otherkin label applies to them, and what species or form they best identify as. This advice is meant to discourage people from being overly deferential and letting others tell them what to identify as. Because of this, I would infer that the indoctrination involved in the Asena narratives would necessarily be rejected as a basis for self-identification as otherkin, but it does not exclude someone from claiming an otherkin identity either. Though, that doesn't mean that otherkin can't point to such mythologies as evidence that the pertinent question of an individual's species identity versus species membership is not a new question. --Tathar (talk) 17:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As for the merger, I didn't know about that, since I'm only recently hearing about this project for the first time. Could you explain the entirety of the new scope? From first impressions, the name makes it sound that any topic with skeptics (rational or otherwise) would be included in the WikiProject, but from viewing the topics already included, that does not appear to be the intent of the project. (As an aside, would it be helpful if I broke down the core otherkin claim into its subclaims? Maybe that could help categorize it better.) --Tathar (talk) 17:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request for deletion.

Page needs to redirect to one or more of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic_disorders#Delusions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

People who believe they are elves are, pretty obviously, psychotic, whether or not they are otherwise more or less harmless or capable of holding down a day job. The content of their delusions is no more worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia than any other madman's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.61.164.169 (talk) 09:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The page has a fair number of sources, so it seems unlikely that an AFD would be successful. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Intro quote

The last line of the introduction has a quotation mark after it. Is it part of the same quote as the preceding sentence? If so, we should move the reference after the full quote. If not, then we need to source it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Should we link to AnotherWiki.org in the external links section? I'm not so sure right now. Especially because it contains pages like this (detailed negative personal info about otherwise non-notable people, it's like linking to Encyclopedia Dramatica). — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 10:55, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It is an important resource to the community, that contains various information about its history. The information contained in that particular article is for safety. Shiro Ulv (talk) 10:56, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

When you talk like this, you talk with an agenda instead of following Wikipedia's rules. This link doesn't meet stanard WP:EL rules. DreamGuy (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline

I don't think we can add http://orion.kitsunet.net/time.pdf at this time if the malware thing isn't sorted out. (Don't go there if you don't have an anti-virus program.) — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 11:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There is no malware on the site, as it is a PDF file. Overzealous anti-virus programs such as Avast! can false flag URLs and files, as is occurring here. A discussion to add this link has already occurred, with the general opinion being that it is relevant. Shiro Ulv (talk) 11:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mythical Creatures?

Is that necessarily the case? I thought some people identified as tigers and wolves, which are not mythical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:A901:C500:D1BC:340D:D38:F26A (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

They sure aren't for cartoon characters. DreamGuy (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That was my understanding as well. This article would be well served to point out if Otherkin includes the hardcore furries who believe themselves to be part/fully non-human animals or if that is a distinct group. Wisnoskij (talk) 21:53, 18 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
People who identify (partly) with known, real-world animals (occasionally even plants or other forms of Earth life) are called "therians" and mentioned in therianthropy (as well as in this article). Otherkin don't identify (in part) with really existing animals (beings), although I think they describe their condition as "species dysphoria", too. A common term for both I've encountered is simply "Kin". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:32, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Notability

Come on, get real. Notability to be mentioned has everything to do with Wikipedia. Not all sources are equal on all articles, and this is a bizarre argument. You might as well put that on ALL articles because you argue it has a supposedly reliable source and notability doesn't count. DreamGuy (talk) 20:41, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@DreamGuy: I really don't understand what you're talking about. Wikipedia:Notability applies to article topics, not article content/specific sentences. I honestly can't figure out what your argument is for removing the mentions of fictional/cartoon characters. And what do you mean by "supposedly reliable"? How are those sources not reliable? — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't understand, you probably shouldn't be editing. WP:UNDUE is a good one if you need a summary page. This article is not for your POV or FRINGE views. Just because somebody somewhere says something you like doesn't mean it rules out majority opinion. This is not your personal soapbox. An opinion for cartoon characters does not overrule the notable statement by countless others.DreamGuy (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@DreamGuy: What "notable statement"? You continue to mix up notability and undue weight, don't blame me for getting confused by what you're trying to do here. Maybe you're the one with the POV if you're offended by the fact that fictionkin are a subgroup of otherkin. That's not my problem. Reliable sources say that it is so it stays in the article. 'Undue weight' is not relevant, it's not like we've dedicated even one full paragraph to discussing fictionkin, maybe that would be undue. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 09:29, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:
I personally don't see a problem with JG's addition; the sources appear to be valid. And DreamGuy, you really should try to be more civil with your comments. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 00:45, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. And by the way, the article has been like that for a long time until just recently when the mentions of fistional identities were removed. I can't see a valid reason for their removal. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism December 2015

Someone redirected it to the Borderline Personality Disorder page. I reverted it.2605:A601:533:E901:59D2:2A8C:8828:17E7 (talk) 05:28, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

can we please delete or redirect this article?

I am just curious why this article exists in the first place. This isn't a normal trait, this is most certainly a mental disorder. Why hasn't it been deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.254.1.229 (talk) 04:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What's the actual reason you want this deleted? If you hate otherkin then go on and complain about it on your tumblr, Wikipedia isn't the place for editors with an agenda. If "this isn't a normal trait, this is most certainly a mental disorder" is your actual reason for deleting this article then I invite you to check out our articles in Category:Mental and behavioural disorders and Category:Abnormal psychology. This article exists because the topic is notable and the content is verifiable, that's all we require here. We don't censor topics based on personal biases. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 09:28, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WP:IDONTLIKEIT. clpo13(talk) 09:41, 23 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the article should be deleted, but it should treat the topic as a symptom of mental illness. One problem with this may be that sufferers generally do not seek out the help they need (like Moregellons sufferers) and so there might not be much psychiatric literature about it. But that could be looked in to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.201.91 (talk • contribs)
It should exist because the otherkin subculture exists and is well-documented, however unfortunate it may be. Lukacris (talk) 00:08, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

History and context

Doreen Virtue wrote about a similar phenomena, her idea was that people whose souls were from other dimensions are living on earth and she's been publishing books about it since the mid 90s, such as in the book "The Lightworkers Way". Also this link, but it's recent http://www.angeltherapy.com/blog/incarnated-angels-and-starpeople

I don't know how much this influenced Otherkin subculture but its a very similar concept — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.183.129.207 (talk) 17:22, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article about starseeds, we would need a reliable source to connect those two things, otherwise it's original research. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 17:58, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the old days we just called these people freaks and weirdos

I know it's part of your ideology now that if people think they are this and that, like a 50 year old man thinking he's a 6 year old girl, then he must be. These kinds of articles denigrate from Wikipedia's credibility as a reliable source of information. It's anything goes on this website. Most, if not all the other webpages on the subject of the Otherkin overwhelmingly agree that these people are just stupid freaks and weirdos and should not be afforded any respect. I think there needs to be an international hashtag movement to get Wikipedia to improve on its standards and to stop treating these complete nuts as a legitimate minority group. #GetYourActTogetherWikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.79.144 (talk) 21:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Who exactly are you talking to? Wikipedia is edited by volunteers, this article has been written and edited by a ton of different people. You're more than welcome to join in and make it better if you imagine that you can. But honestly, you probably need to read our content policies first. This is an encyclopedia, we don't call anyone 'freaks' or 'complete nuts' in Wikipedia's voice. Your opinions might be more welcome on Tumblr. This talk page is for discussing how specifically to improve this article, not for general rants about the topic or about Wikipedia. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Let's unpack that barrage of hateful, dehumanising prejudice used to fashion a carefully crafted narrative that appeals to the "transgender predator" moral panic and tries to capitalise on the right-wing histrionics surrounding that queer cryptid, which makes Bigfoot almost appear like solid, established science. First, note that in mainstream discussions, the prototypical transgender person is always male-assigned, their female-assigned counterpart passed over in near-total silence, and this example is no different. Second, the choice of an adult person as example, since transgender children cannot be easily demonised as dangerous deviants and perpetrators of heinous crimes (only as victims of a sinister "transgender lobby"). Third, the assumption that transgender people are deluded, hence seriously mentally ill, believing themselves to be what they are patently obviously not – instead of feeling detached from and (usually) uncomfortable to some (often major, not infrequently crippling) extent with their assigned gender (which can easily lead to psychological troubles and consequences as harsh as suicidal tendencies if left untreated), while (typically) harbouring a profound longing and desire to live and to be perceived as their "chosen" or identity gender. Fourth, the implied assumption that mentally ill – and by extension, via the preceding assumption, transgender – people inherently pose a grave danger to society (instead of, as is the case in the real world, being far more likely to be victims than offenders of serious criminal acts). Fifth, the conflation of mental illness in the form of delusion, pedophilia, child sexual abuse, transgender and otherkin in order to portray unconventional, minority, rare or stigmatised identity perceptions as somehow completely unacceptable and in need of ruthless pushback. Sixth, the choice of the epitome of "creepiness", an older adult man (of never explicated sexual orientation), at the age when they are considered the "creepiest", about 50, too old to be likely judged attractive, but too young to be likely judged frail and harmless. Seventh, the choice of a little girl as the man's "target persona" to imply that he would specifically endanger the most vulnerable (at least to sexual abuse) members of society (apart from, you know, the disabled or mentally ill) – and also those most likely to be judged "cute" and appeal to our protective instincts, an appeal to emotion if I ever saw one –, children at the age of about 6, by seeking out their company – presumably to prey on them sexually. Of course, in reality that makes no sense, because a man who believed he was a little girl would presumably behave like one, which might look utterly goofy, eccentric or weird to outsiders (another way to portray transgender as wrong and shameful, by having the putative transgender person come across as absolutely ridiculous – an older woman behaving in a boyish way, for example, not to mention other possible constellations, would be percieved much more positively), but not pose a grave danger at all, considering that little-girl behaviour does not involve preying on other children, luring them into dark corners and sexually abusing them, as is clearly implied here! Note further the implied assumption that typical sexual abusers are creepy, weird strangers ("Slavering Beasts"), while the actual fact is that they are rarely strangers but usually family members or other acquaintances who have gained the victim's trust already. (Not to mention that I've never heard of a transgender person who intended to "transition to child", as it were, or live as a child; transgender is about changing your gender only, not your age, considering that the desire to change to a younger age medically or surgically is an absolutely mainstream preoccupation in our society, and feeling like a child inside, childlike behaviour in adults, and longing one could be a child again is not exactly rare, either.) The amount of hateful, stupid and wrong is breath-taking here, and makes one wonder which side rightfully deserves to be called "mentally ill", "freak" or "weirdo". As usual, bigoted right-wing fanatics construct an actually delusional mirror world by inverting the roles of perpetrator and victim – "freaks" and "weirdos" are almost invariably on the receiving end of abuse (of all kinds), not those who dish it out. Instead of questioning the alleged sinister "gay agenda", it is necessary to put the right-wing agenda under the lens, namely the preservation of the ability to bully, hurt and torture all those who do not fit into the narrow worldview of hateful zealots in denial of their own giant privilege. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a forum. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 06:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You know, every time someone makes this page redirect to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic_disorders#Delusions that person IS improving Wikipedia, just as you suggest--and then you call the change "vandalism" and revert it. This kind of thing is why Wikipedia has lost so much credibility in the past several years. And let's not even get started on the number of pages that are "protected" from similar improvements, where IP bans are handed out for trying. "The encyclopedia anyone can edit," indeed. "Anyone" who's PC and doesn't hurt anyone's feewings with the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:400:8001:6EC0:CC50:6D44:6398:3734 (talk) 03:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whatsamatter, brave hater behind the anonymous mask— hoits you? --Thnidu (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have to accept otherkin identities to acknowledge there are real communities based on nonhuman identities, that they first surfaced in the neopagan movement in the 1970's, that they have an online presence, and so on. I mean these are just the facts. That's what Wikipedia is supposed to be about, verifiable facts not opinions. To the other point, the DSM-V does not consider otherkinism as even a mental illness let alone "psychotic". For it to be an illness it has to result in "distress" and "trouble functioning in one or more major life areas". I really wonder if someone is an expert on "psychotic disorders" why they missed what every beginning Psych student knows concerning the DSM and its authority within psychology. Otherkin is simply a belief and a set of practices organized about a belief, just like many people believe in a god who died on a cross, but that doesn't prevent them from functioning in the world. (I am not claiming that otherkin is a religion, just that it contains certain beliefs/practices and is structured in many ways like a religion with exoteric elements (the literal beliefs and practices) serving performatively as gateways to esoteric truths [in this case overcoming of the strict/false division between human/animal or human/nature which as Agamben recognized "passes through the human"; i.e. divides the human against herself]. Now, you're free to have whatever opinion you want on otherkin, but it has no bearing on the facts or the reason this page should or should not exist. Sure, if there was a community of "50-year old men who think they are 6 years old", not just isolated instances but a large community that intersects many other notable communities, that had over years evolved consistent structures and practices, there would no doubt be a page on that too. But that community doesn't exist. This one does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.216.158.9 (talk) 04:22, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go this far here: This page should be very careful to not lend credibility to the non-spiritual claims of otherkins, although it should document the existence of the belief and the overall subculture. There is no objective merit in the beliefs- the "otherkin identity" is, like any identity claim, defined in the subjective. These people are not descended from animals and many of the "kin" are entirely fictitious creatures. If there is any good psychological scholarship on the subject, it should be prominent in the article. I am not suggesting that the article be aggressive or mean-spirited for its own sake. Lukacris (talk) 01:49, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Fringe

This article needs to be deleted according to NPOV Fringe as it stands as a skub that could lead people down the wrong pyschological path if followed. Wikipedia is an ever expanding encyclopedia that aids in the documentation of many things in the world, a little known internet subculture is not one of those things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.255.49.47 (talk) 06:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Xenogender

@Jeraphine Gryphon: JFYI, the association I see between otherkin and nonbinary gender is provided by the conceptual bridge of Xenogender and the fact that there is, indeed, a substantial overlap between otherkin (and therians) and people with unconventional gender identities (gender variance, transgender); however, I do understand that this connection is not blindingly obvious, and Xenogender is a very obscure concept that's, to my knowledge, even not well-known in the transgender community. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:57, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

All of nonbinary.org, including Xenogender, is now just a front for an ad site, http://www.freeresultsguide.com/. --Thnidu (talk) 19:40, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I know about the substantial overlap but that's only because I spend too much time on that blue hell site. Other than that the connection is not obvious, and I think we both know that it's damaging to make frivolous connections between otherkinnery and transgenderism, because that's what transphobes do, because both concepts are equally ridiculous to them. I think it's better to avoid this here. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 05:59, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While I don't disagree with your conclusion, I don't think trying to cater to the hangups of transphobes is a good reason for anything, though. Wikipedia is about documenting stuff that exists out there and is written about by RS, not what bigots think is or isn't respectable (that's an allusion to "respectability politics" tactics).
Don't forget there are still loads of 'phobes out there who believe that people with non-mainstream gender and sexual identities and preferences, even "regular" gays and lesbians (maybe even asexuals? haha), are mentally ill, dangerous "perverts", full stop, and didn't exist in the "good old days", while "normal" cishet men are civilised and principally unable to do nasty things such as rape (hence the common refusal to believe concrete rape accusations while simultaneously believing that rape is commonplace, but it is always committed by the marginalised, dehumanised Other, the "Slavering Beast"), so there's no way to win this game.
The concept of "species dysphoria", which was consciously modelled after gender dysphoria, provides a link between Kin and transgenderism already. Personally, I find the experiences of Kin unfamiliar and therefore odd, myself, but there are lots of conditions out there that I'll always have trouble with empathising just because I don't have them; there's no good reason to reject what you have never experienced as impossible or ridiculous out of hand, and it is utterly narrow-minded to do so. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of animals at all

I honestly don't really want to burn my hands on this article, in particular because I have not read any of the literature. However, I was under the impression that otherkin primarily refers to animals rather than fictional beings. Right now, the article says nothing about dogs, cats, etc, or even animals in general. The description section (the first section in the article) starts off with "otherkin largely identify as mythical creatures" and the rest of the article has a similar focus. This makes the later phrase "animal-human relationship pioneers" particularly confusing, as it is the first time "animal" is suggested in the article. ~Mable (chat) 12:32, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably mostly because normal animals are covered by the term therianthropy. Foxkin and so on usually call themselves therian. So the wider term 'otherkin' is used for the everything else. Sources that generalize this topic use the term otherkin since it covers everything (including therians). This article might be a little disjointed but it's controversial so every statement needs to be sourced. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 14:49, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As a wiki, WikiFur is not a RS, of course, but I find their article on the topic quite informative and plausible sounding, and it also addresses the distinction between otherkin and therians here. So (as already basically stated in our article as well) otherkin (growing out of an elf-centred community) and therians are historically distinct communities, and while the general rule is that otherkin identify with beings that are not known to exist or have existed in physical reality but are products of the human imagination, while therian identify with real living beings (usually animals, though plant-kin are not entirely unheard of), exceptions seem to exist, where people who identify with real animals identify as otherkin and people who identify with, say, dragons, as therian. Therefore, using otherkin as an umbrella term is strictly speaking incorrect. In fact, there is no umbrella term (at least no widely accepted one); these are merely similar but unrelated subcultures in origin, though they have begun to associate or ally to some extent due to shared interests and concerns. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:31, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's an uncomfortable category thing here. The term "Otherkin" first surfaced within the elves groups to expand the category beyond elves to include other mythic and yes, fictional types (elves and dragons, but also orcs, hobbits, etc.) Now it has come to mean any non-multiple, non-human identity which includes therians, fictionkin and starseeds (and to those against fictionkin, again please realize this was there from the earliest days with Tolkien elves, orcs and hobbits, in fact it was Tolkien who greatly (and unwittingly) influenced the hippie movement with the unauthorized paperback version of LOTR in 1964 because he was the first to re-introduce animistic concepts, to give the sense that every rock, tree and star was alive, this had not been seen in popular culture since pre-Christian times... Also, the Church of All Worlds, with their Green Egg magazine providing the first forum for elves' groups, was in fact founded upon the intersection between fiction and religion, based on a fictional religion described by Heinlein. Anyway, digressions aside, there has always been this uncomfortable distinction, some use "otherkin" to refer to all singular-identity nonhuman groups where others prefer the original definition restricted to the mythic type. There's less of the latter type these days so my own inclination would be to be inclusive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.216.158.9 (talk) 04:37, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

There is significant room for improvement on neutrality of the article. The recent deletion petititon goes into... excessive detail, but worth skimming.

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Otherkin_(2nd_nomination)

99.232.216.129 (talk) 20:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tagbomb

Is there any point to the current tagbombing? I would propose we get rid of all the cleanup tags unless some reason to keep them is offered. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:54, 3 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed some of the tags, which are either overlapping or not applicable (anymore). Per WP:TAGBOMBING. There are some sources quoted which are not reliable, but other sources are reliable. Subject's notability can be established by searching on Google Scholar, and has also reached consensus twice in the above discussions. Anyone who added the notability tag, please warn him/her for disruptive editing. I do not have any knowledge on the subject, so i cannot determine whether there are any factual inaccuracies, or whether some opinions have been left out, but as a rule of thumb, any tag should be accompanied by an explanation per Wikipedia policy.--Farang Rak Tham (talk) 08:46, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reaction

§ Reaction says

Outside viewers may have varying opinions about people who identify as otherkin, ranging from considering them animal-human relationship pioneers, to psychologically dysfunctional. Reactions often range from disbelief to aggressive antagonism, especially online.

Not all reactions are so polar. Some of us are interactionally agnostic, accepting a person's right to think of themself as otherkin, not disputing it with them. Whether we believe it ourselves, disbelieve it, or consider it possible (though perhaps unlikely), our reactions are civil and not challenging or argumentative. I have nothing to cite for this, nor do I intend to look for it, so I'm not putting it on the page. --Thnidu (talk) 19:49, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then why are you putting it here? Lukacris (talk) 23:22, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic flamebait

Come on, the 'Reaction' section makes no mention whatsoever of the real reaction of the majority of people to this. To whit, 'It's absurd and silly nonsense'.

Mental Illness Attention Seekers.

Hello Everyone, It's F*king reality here.

I just wanted to say that this article is kind and it actually legitimizes "Otherkin" as if it's a real thing. There should be an emphasis in this article that "Otherkin" is no more real than imaginary friends. The idea that "OtherKin" is being treated with any legitimacy whatsoever just shows people care more about being politically correct rather than facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrSuperEditor123 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Limbs Please

Some otherkin (of various kin) report having phantom limbs, which I, as a wolfkin, have in fact experienced myself. May they get a mention, big or small? Here, I'll provide my own description of it:

"Some otherkin of certain mammalian or reptilian species experience a Supernumerary phantom limb similar to their kintype's biological appearance. These have ranged from dragon wings and horns to ears and tails, latter being more common."

How's that sound? I put a link in and everything too! I need some cocoa, not coffee. [Dragonia Lover] (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That could be included, but it would need a citation to a reliable source. We can't go by personal experience. That's original research. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:03, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well... Despite the area of tumblr containing many resources, I don't think it would be wise to cite it. I'll try my best to use a reliable resource for citing. (This is the same user btw, I'm just not logged in on my iPad.) 65.175.240.110 (talk) 15:51, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
found it! Hopefully this works, right? http://otherkin.wikia.com/wiki/Astral_Limbs I mean, sure, It's a wikia and the article itself is very short, but it is very well summed up and seems proper! What do you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.240.110 (talk) 16:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Open wikis are not reliable sources (even Wikipedia is not a reliable source); they can be edited by anyone who can say anything. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:05, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I did find a reliable source...but it's on tumblr; and also written from an otherkin's POV. The only part that doesn't contain an otherkin's POV is the first paragraph, which contains a lot of info! Here's the link to the post, if you do need it. http://thetadelta.tumblr.com/post/103818059509/excuse-me-but-can-you-can-please-explain-astral — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonia Lover (talk • contribs) 16:57, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some random person writing a blog post is also not a reliable source. Please see WP:RS for more information. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:28, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Welp. That's the best resource I could find. Well, if you look all over the web, you'll be bound to find something citable. I can't do that as of now because of a tight schedule. If you can find something, use it. As for me, I gotta work on a draft "article" (something that isn't actually gonna be used on wikipedia but will be styled like one). Cya. I need some cocoa, not coffee. [Dragonia Lover] (talk) 18:39, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Template removal

I've removed the multiple issues template from this article.

The named issues may still exist, but as there has been no discussion in 18 months around what the perceived issues actually are, it's hard to judge the validity of the templates.

I've no beef with the templates being reinstated - provided discussion takes place around what they say needs doing. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Genetics vs. ancestry.

According to the lead, some believe that their identity is genetic, while others believe it derives from ancestry. Is there a difference?--Klausok (talk) 10:39, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article suggests that there's a metaphysical element to the identity. This could be ancestral but not genetic - such as a spirit being transferred or associated with a family. That's my understanding of the text, anyway. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:44, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why does everyone refuse to accept edits made in earnest?

Both I and several of my friends from the otherkin community have tried in vain to update this article to better reflect our community. Our edits, despite being sourced, have usually been reversed within a few hours. In all honesty I believe our personal experience as being part of the community should be sufficient evidence that what we say is true, but I know that's not a good way to run a site like this. I do have to question, though, why citing the Otherkin Timeline and similar writings by the community itself is not good enough in the case of most edits, but citing a book on/by/for vampires (a book that is not a more reliable source, purely by virtue of it's authors, than the blog posts you seem to abhor) has stood uncontested, assumedly for years.

The article, as it stands right now, is a gross misrepresentation of modern otherkin, and it's frequently brought up in community discussions that we should edit it to better reflect us. That, however, is almost impossible as most edits are immediately contested by people who don't know better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.49.45.203 (talk) 10:40, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which book you are referring to, but WP:OTHERSTUFF probably covers it. And lay off the personal attacks with statements such as "people who don't know better", or you'll never make ground here. Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:23, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what the content dispute is about (I haven't really looked into it), but I can point out that this Wikipedia article isn't the place to correct misconceptions. It's a summary of what reliable sources have said about the topic. If you want to write about your own experiences, Wikia might be a better outlet. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As an otherkin who has never been "animalistic", I fail to see what you're trying to get at. Could this IP user explain this in more understandable English? I need some cocoa, not coffee. [Dragonia Lover] (talk) 17:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested edit for someone who knows how. I don't.

The opening section, cites Joseph P. Laycock, without saying who he is. I googled him, and he is an assistant professor of religious studies at Texas State University. The article should mention this fact. Here's his TSU website page: faculty.txstate.edu/profile/1922193 2604:6000:1411:6B9:AC01:FB39:EC5E:2FD4 (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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