Talk:Pyrenean Mountain Dog

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2020 and 15 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Akandrews (article contribs).

Major POV Problems

One comes away from this article thinking they have read a loving tribute to GPs written by and for those that admire them. That's not a good sign. Wikipedia articles should present objective facts, rather than extol this breed for its elegance or any other virtue some might ascribe to it. This misguided agenda has found its way onto this discussion page as well. Wikipedia is not a public forum. Discussion pages are meant specifically/exclusively to address issues with articles. That this breed of dog might be someone's favorite is completely irrelevant where writing/revising an objective encyclopedia article is concerned. If some of you would like to strike up a conversation about your personal experiences with dogs, please do it elsewhere. Mdleonar (talk) 16:20, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

It appears that most of the content of the "Description" section was improperly borrowed from some breeder's guide, as that is what it reads (and is improperly formatted) like. In fact, a Google search turns up these pages: AKC.org, PyrNet.org, pet-expo.com, StarMountPyrs.com, most of appear to be extracts from A publication of the Great Pyrenees Club of America, rev. 1992. Complete outright removal might be called for. — Loadmaster (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I have never seen an "objective" description of a dog breed anywhere. If you get to know a dog well enough to write about the breed, you've already fallen in love with the dog. To quote Dale Carnegie's book "How To Win Friends and Influence People," a dog's job is to love his or her owner. Providing facts such as size, history of the breed, etc., is fine but readers also want to know the behavior and temperament of a breed. For example, every breed is described as "intelligent." Well, there are different types of intelligence! Golden retrievers can be trained to do tricks that no Great Pyrenees would have interest in, but my Great Pyrenees has better social intelligence than a Golden retriever. And if I say that Great Pyrenees are one of the best companion animals, it's true, although there are different types of companions. For a backcountry skier a Great Pyrenees is the best choice of companion animal because if you're buried in an avalanche your Great Pyrenees will dig you out and save your life. For a little old lady who doesn't get out much a toy poodle might be a better choice.--TDKehoe (talk) 19:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Then appropriate descriptions would be that "the GP is able to pick up on social cues..." and that "it is a suitable companion for a xyz BECAUSE...", not the existing description which reminds me of Bella describing Edward. Also, the temperament section suggests that every GP is male. The Gait section is a bit too flowery and the Temperament section contains very little information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.116.44.98 (talk) 06:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Have attempted to improve quality of article by removing a lot of the information which reads as if it has been copied verbatim from a dog breeder's website. Resolved as much useable info as I could into a number of paragraphs explaining dog's physical appearance. Ditched everything else, a bit slash and burn, but much of what was there was a very technical description of how these dogs should be judged in competitions, and was completely unsuitable for a wiki article. Article could now do with someone with some knowledge of the breed's history, temperament and current workplace uses taking a look to see if there's something they can add. Lordofmarzipan (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Agree! Nice work :) 121.214.48.59 (talk) 06:27, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Not too bad at all. Thank you. Only issue I have is with the statement on here "someone with some knowledge of the breed's history, temperament and current workplace uses taking a look to see if there's something they can add" as knowing a great deal about the breed, etc, and being able to reference it are two different things. One reason I have not made major edits is that the common reference material is often incorrect but going off of years of experience is prohibited. I made some minor deletions but will do some digging through various publications to find sources for further changes (if any are needed) BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 21:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

@Lordofmarzipan @BigWhiteFireDog I have some issues with the History section. I am adding a comment under a new talk section for History. But for this section, regarding temperament, it is difficult to describe temperament in ANY breed, due to the extreme variation amongst individuals in instinct, and in the nurture of those instinctual drives. A prime example is the discussion on this page of the suitability of GP for urban or suburban life. As a breed, they are not particularly well suited to small lots with no livestock to protect. However, many GP, and today, perhaps even most, are living happily in exactly those circumstances. Mbuell72 (talk) 19:38, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

What kind of training is needed for a Great Pyrenees

My cousin has a two-year-old Great Pyrenees  female named Nanny and I am going to help train her but can you train a great pier knees just like any other obedience training particularly good canine citizen test training. Do I just do the same training? LittleAndy12345 (talk) 16:29, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but Wikipedia talk is not the place for that question. you can go to my profile and using the left-hand column, email me and I will help you. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 18:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Category: Rare dog breed

Where I come from these are not at all common. Of course, in certain counties of Wyoming (in sheep or cattle country) that might be entirely different. I don't know if there is any professional or editorial consensus on how rare is "rare." Reasonable minds could differ. That being said, being over inclusive in categories is no great sin. Conversely, being under inclusive is, IMO. So I would err on the side of inclusion, rather than exclusion. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:53, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I know I'm in a fairly rural area in the South and they are pretty popular (I have two), but I doubt they are common in urban areas because of the size issue of a big dog in a tiny house/apartment. I also don't know about other countries, except France. So I'd lean toward keeping the category unless we can prove they aren't rare. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:07, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

According to the American Kennel Club the breed currently ranks 67th for registrations. Of course, that does not speak to world-wide "rarity", and I also know that these rankings change over time. Breeds fall in and out of favor; popularity ebbs and flows like the tide. Great Pyrenees AKC. In part the size of the breeeding population could be a factor. See Rare breed (agriculture). 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Part of the issue is that there is no standard for being classified as "Rare" nor is there a valid way to know popularity as AKC registrations and dog show participation are falling. In the US west, they are now more likely to be working dogs and we are seeing more Pyr-Turkish LGD crosses for sale and in rescue so does that count also?BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

History

I will have to research this, but I am moderately confident that the History section is mistaken on at least two points. And, misleading or romanticized in general. In other words, it is more like a "fan" article than a rational statement of verified fact. In particular, the reference to GP being introduced to Australia at a farm in Hamilton is, I believe, entirely mistaken. I think someone confused two breeds of dogs when writing this. Regardless, both that assertion - and the assertion that Lafayette brought an example of the dogs to the US in the 1800's - are undocumented.

Additionally, I believe the whole history section to be highly romanticized. Although I do have to say this is very typical of "breed histories" you can find today, online, at least. I would edit, but at this point in time, I lack sufficient knowledge to do so. That may change. As I am hoping for some discussion from other editors of this or other dog sections, I will explain myself further.

Start at the beginning of the History section. Quote: The Great Pyrenees is a very old breed that has been used for hundreds of years by shepherds. End quote. I find this assertion essentially inaccurate, as "breeds" of dogs were unknown before the 1800's. Dogs were varieties of types, kept for function, not appearance. I believe my point is validated in the 6th paragraph. Quote: "In the mid-19th century, the breed was not homogenized. . ."

At least one of the references used (#12) is to another website (greatpyrenees.com), which website then uses primary references to establish it's claims. The references should be primary in this case. Much of the history here appears to be, lifted from that website. On the other hand, that other website, uses another primary reference from the early 1800's, that more clearly establishes a Pyrenean type of shepherd's dog that very much describes a dog similar to the GP we know today (from the "This and That" page on that site).

Worth noting is that the provenance of the anecdote referring to the 1675 adoption of a GP by the Dauphin is not clear. Where did this story come from? Was it the 18th century writings of M. Byasson, or was it from somewhere else?

Regardless, what we know is that the Great Pyrenees breed of dogs is descended from the shepherd's dogs that were used in the Pyrenean mountains. These types of dogs were selected and known for their livestock guardian abilities.

As things stand, I find the history section for the Great Pyrenees at dogtime.com to be more rational, and more "encyclopedia-like". Mbuell72 (talk) 21:09, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea where most of it came from, but the thing about Lafayette is in my copy of the AKC Dog Book. Mine is older, so I don't know if it's in the newer editions, but I could cite the Pyrenees chapter in the book if needed. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 22:46, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Name change

Who unilaterally changed the name of this page and deleted all the prior talk discussions on the subject? By who's authority was this change made? While the name Great Pyrenees is "Western Centric", by far (as in many, many times the number) the majority of the Great Pyrenees on the entire world live in the US and Canada. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 16:47, 24 June 2020 (UTC)