Talk:White pride: Difference between revisions

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Page organisation

This needs a re-work and re-organisation.

A lot of the content in the "introduction" (I'm not sure of the proper name) section doesn't really belong there. There are a lot of quotes and opinions on "white pride", more of a dicussion (whether NPOV or not), which would belong under appropriate sub-headings, not the introduction. What should be there is perhaps a contextualisation of "white pride", and most of the stuff already there can be put under different subheadings.

Something like: -Definition (the first sentence, already there), relate to similar slogans -Relate "Pride" to "Separatism" and "Supremacy" (make it known they are not the same, but rather increasingly extreme ideologies)

-When the slogan was first coined (no content on this) -Where, and in what context (no content on this) -How it is used today (already in paragraphs 3 & 4, but needs to be summarised and signposted that this is the MODERN interpretation and usage)

-Brief summary of the controversy surrounding it, e.g. "The slogan "White Pride" has attracted international controversy due to its strong ties with {and maybe origins with if that is true} "white supremacy"[link to article]."

Origins: -stuff about where it originated, expansion on introduction, links for further reading (such as "white supremacy" or "Klu Klux Klan")

Modern Usage: -this section can be built from existing paragraphs in the article

Criticism: -HERE IS WHERE ALL THE QUOTES AND OPINIONS BELONG -Should be formatted as a list of criticisms of white pride, and (if any) responses by advocators of white pride, making sure to never generalise an opinion but cite who said it, when and where. Contradicting or different responses by different advocators would also be cool if there are any

Any other sections

See Also: -White guilt -Other "pride" movements [Black pride, etc.] -White supremacy -Racial seperatism -Etc.

Footnotes, Bibliography

27.99.3.4 (talk) 05:17, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

For wikipedia, ALL prides (Blak, asian, gay..) are positive and desirable prides, except white pride that is fascist and neo-Nazi.  ??????? I'm white pride. Who is the racist who has written this article. Maybe a jew???

Unsourced additions

Wikipedia articles are intended to summarize what independent reliable sources say about a subject. If you have material to add, it must cite reliable sources or it will be removed. - SummerPhD (talk) 22:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The original text in the definition for white pride is completely inaccurate and biased. Although there is a facet to the term or slogan that is connected with hate speech and or white nationalist skin head gangs/organizations this aspect belongs in the controversy section.my only goal is to present a proper presentation which mirrors the definitions of black pride and Asian pride. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Commonsenceforanuncommonage (talk • contribs) 08:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The fact is, "White Pride" is used primarily by a bunch of bigots as stated in the first sentence of the article. This is well established by many, many WP:RS. As a certifiable way-over-privileged "white guy", I wish to not be associated with this sh*t. The WP:WEIGHT is correct and the article should retain its criticism of "White Pride" Jim1138 (talk) 08:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Your opinions and Salon.com are not reliable sources. Have a look at the Black pride article and the vastly different tone there. It lists users of the phrase such as Black Panther Party without calling them racists (and they are). This is article is dripping with liberal, progressive, anti-white bias. Not even close to WP:NPOV Matty1487 (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Your opinion about salon.com is not a reliable source. Your stating they're not NPOV does not make them POV. Get consensus on a talk page before deleting sourced information. Ratemonth (talk) 22:56, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

revised defination presented for public approval, if you have an issue please edit

White pride, is a slogan most frequently used by peoples of European decent to express affirmation of dignity, honor, and respect in their cultural heritage and community.^[1] It is also used to express a connection to ones European roots and ancestry, a concept many whites feel is often unecessarily misconstrued and absent in modern western societies.^[2] The concept has gained a lot of ground in recent years for many reasons, mainly being an increased awareness of the need to maintain and preserve a multitude of culture and ethnic distinctions that make whites like other races and national groups unique. Other more controversial reasons being an overall feeling by many whites, that their individuality is being glossed over by inadvertent or intentional overzealousness in attempt at equalizing western society after European expansion, colonisation, enslavement, and discrimination against other "non white" groups and peoples.^{[citation needed]} -controversy- The term "White Pride" can easily be misconstrued as a "rascist" or discriminatory term as it has been adopted and perverted by many hate or fascist groups. While most individuals only wish to convey a quality of justified self respect, some groups have used the term in an attempt to convey a message of hate or superiority. These groups however are a minority and are often affiliated with "street" or prison gangs, who participate in violence, bigotry and narcotic trafficking, all of which could be defined as the polar opposite of the qualities and actions the majority of individuals are attempting to express. Some White pride advocates claim that there is a cultural double standard in which only certain ethnic groups are permitted to openly express pride in their heritage, and that white pride is not inherently racist, being roughly analogous to racial positions such as Asian pride, black pride, or non-racial forms such as gay pride.[4][5] Carol M. Swain and Russell Nieli state that the white pride movement is a relatively new phenomenon in the United States, arguing that over the course of the 1990s, "a new white pride, white protest, and white consciousness movement has developed in America". They identify three contributing factors: an immigrant influx during the 1980s and 1990s, resentment over affirmative action policies, and the growth of the Internet as a tool for the expression and mobilization of grievances.[6] A white pride T-shirt Sociologists Betty A. Dobratz and Stephanie L Shanks-Meile state that "White Power! White Pride!" is "a much-used chant of white separatist movement supporters".[7] According to Joseph T. Roy of the Southern Poverty Law Center, white supremacists often circulate material on the Internet and elsewhere that "portrays the groups not as haters, but as simple white pride civic groups concerned with social ills".[8] The slogan "White Pride, World Wide" appears in the logo of Stormfront, a website owned and operated by Don Black, who was formerly a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.[9] The North Georgia White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan describe themselves as "a patriotic, White Christian revival movement dedicated to preserving the maintenance of White Pride and the rights of the White Race".[10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Commonsenceforanuncommonage (talk • contribs) 08:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Is this a proposed edit? Would you please cite sources here? I added a number of [Citation needed] and a false equivalence. It need many more. Jim1138 (talk) 09:02, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Three problems with this proposed addition/change:

1) Some of the material is an edit to what is there. I do not intend to dig through it to figure out what is being changed and why. Your job is to explain that, especially given the next two problems.

2) You cite the American Journal of Human Genetics to describe the common usage of "white pride". The article does not use the phrase. It does not support the material you wish to add.

3) You cite American Renaissance for what "many whites feel". White supremacist groups do not speak for "many" whites. They are not a reliable source for statements other than non-controversial matters of self-report (i.e. "American Renaissance is published by..."). - SummerPhD (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Jim1138 edited Commonsenceforanuncommonage's talk page entry? Even if just a "citation needed", it's not a good idea, I don't care who he is.Tgm1024 (talk) 14:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Plurality of "whiteness"

I have only recently become aware of this "white pride" movement. It appears that there may be branches of this movement that include specific white cultures, such as Irish-American, etc. and it may be helpful to readers if further information was added about those branches of the movement, or if it was clarified whether there were "official" branches of the movement. We do a disservice to white people in referring to them as if they were all of one history and mindset.

I believe that there needs to be counter-argument for the criticism portion of this page as well, to more thoroughly explain the motivation behind the movement. In reading the article it seems to say, effectively, "This organization is founded by Nazis and KKK members, and even if they think otherwise, this is just meant to give whites privileges." Personally, I have Spanish and Cherokee heritage as well as Celtic ancestry, and I look white. I am proud of my white Celtic ancestors, as I am proud of my Spanish ancestry (who were not dark-skinned). This article does not present the whole picture. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.58.218.152 (talk) 03:21, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

If there is specific material you feel should be added, you will need to cite independent reliable sources for the material. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying you are proud of being white itself, not just Celtic and Spanish, who happen to also be white, or what? As I don't think it qualifies as "white pride" if the pride is in individual white ethnicities, not in "being white" per se. So I don't know if that qualifies as "white pride" in the sense discussed in this article. mike4ty4 (talk) 04:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Why don't we set white pride as a neo-nazi slogan and as a cultural concept aside?

Hello everyone.

Seems like all the buzz around this article originates from two meanings of "white pride" being confused.

One white pride is a concept which IS similar to any other pride, ethnic or not.

Another is the supremacist slogan.

Why don't we distinguish those? Maybe it would be better to make two separate articles.

TL;DR summary: This article presents an unbalanced point of view through its lack of a clear definition(s) or description(s) of white pride anywhere in the article, its presented selection of users of the phrase, and its citation of the Southern Poverty Law Centre without mentioning that their labels are often considered controversial.

This article is uninformative and doesn't present a neutral point of view.

There is no explanation of what white pride is, why the phrase used, or any in-depth history of the phrase and its use. Almost no activist groups, political parties, magazines, websites etc. which use the phrase have been mentioned.

In fact, the ONLY subsection of this article is "Criticism" - and. Does this seem like an objective article to you?

Let's compare this article with the article for black pride, shall we? In the article for black pride, no criticism has been included; either in a dedicated section or anywhere in the article. On the contrary, a quote has been included to laud it as "a rock in the face of expressions of white supremacy". In the beginning of the article, it states that "black pride is a movement encouraging people to take pride in being black" and that "the slogan has been used in the United States by African Americans to celebrate heritage and personal pride". The author(s) of the article have tried to create a very positive feel to the term by linking it with civil rights campaigners "speaking out against the United States' segregated society and lobbied for better treatment of all races" - this despite the fact that the phrase was used by Malcolm X, who was openly hateful of white people and openly, very publicly called for mass violence against them. Yet I don't see any of this reflected in the black pride article, about its association with militant anti-White violence.

In the white pride article, however, the author have drawn up a collection of "socially unaccepted" groups with whom to link the phrase and a list of criticisms - some of which are in th main body of the article. The KKK are listed here, and a few quotes claiming that users of the phrase are "white supremacists". But none of the political parties, magazines, activist groups, individuals, websites etc. which use the phrase have been mentioned in the article. Never in the article is any description of the phrase even made. I mean it. I have looked through the article and have not found a definition or definitions given for "white pride". In the entire article. Why didn't you use the suggestion of the other post in this talk page to open the article with "White pride, is a slogan most frequently used by peoples of European decent to express affirmation of dignity, honor, and respect in their cultural heritage and community.[1] It is also used to express a connection to ones European roots and ancestry, a concept many whites feel is often unecessarily misconstrued and absent in modern western societies.[2]". As soon as I opene the black pride article, I'm given a clear definition of the term. "Black pride is a movement encouraging people to take pride in being black." It elaborates to claim that "The slogan has been used in the United States by African Americans to celebrate heritage and personal pride." Yet when I open the white pride article, I don't get a definition(s). I just get a group of people whom the article claims uses the phrase. No definition or description.

This article is a joke, a complete joke. It's an absolute anti-White propaganda piece. Just as the black ride article is designed to legitimise that term, so this article is designed to stigmatise and to illegitimise the phrase "white pride" by presenting an imbalanced article through a variety of techniques, and ultimately to help suppress people from expressing white pride. Whether by design or not, this article is massively unbalanced in its presentation and point of view. And that violates Wikipedia guidelines.

I suggest that a definition or definitions be included at the beginning of the article, that criticism of the phrase be confined to the Criticism section unless it has some other purpose in the article, and that a larger collection of people and groups making use of the phrase be included.

Again, as posters have recognised, THIS ARTICLE IS MASSIVELY BIASED AGAINST THE USE OF THE PHRASE "WHITE PRIDE" and needs to be chsnged.

We need to create a clear, detailed, objective article about white pride, and this article isn't one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.230.117 (talk) 22:05, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I might have put this in the wrong place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.230.117 (talk) 22:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

The article is based on the most reliable sources we can find on the subject. Arguing in all caps about a conspiracy against the term is not helpful. jps (talk) 12:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2016

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at White pride. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

I have a complain about the current status about the pride branches. Gay pride: stand against homofobia and being proud in being homosexual. Black pride: About pride in being black. Asian pride: about pride in being asian. And the last one White pride: used by racist and neo nazis used to show their racism seriously wiki? how can it be racist to be proud in being white but not in being black? i want to see a change in this or else i am willing to go far with this. 90.231.230.107 (talk) 20:04, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

This is making it's rounds on social media, and though Social Media shouldn't be the authority on how wiki articles should be structured, I can certainly see the benefit in changing the wordings here, as previously stated, it is a heavily biased introduction. --152.228.136.72 (talk) 20:38, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up about this being canvassed on social media, for any content to be added reliable third-party published sources are needed. Personal opinions are no more than original research, which can't be included on Wikipedia, and due weight has to be given to published expert views. . dave souza, talk 21:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2016

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at White pride. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

This needs changed - being proud of being white is not racist.......unless black pride is considered racist as well. If the both aren't considered the same then that would be racist. 184.57.4.93 (talk) 23:01, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Pretty ridiculous that white pride is a bad thing on Wikipedia.

We invented the car, the radio, the airplane, and the computer, and went to the moon among many other accomplishments. Ylevental (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

1. ^ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/.  Missing or empty |title= (help); External link in |website= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)
2. ^ http://www.amren.com/news/2010/04/feds_rule_white_1/.  Missing or empty |title= (help); External link in |website= (help); Missing or empty |url= (help)