User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Porn

This

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Masturbation_Techniques_-_tolling_of_the_bells_%28animated%29.gif

has just been featured on the Popbitch messageboard. A commentor among that pretty unshockable community has said "now I know it's the all-encompassing encyclopaedia but bloody hell. Is that necessary?" I couldn't agree more. Is this an encyclopedia or a porn site? 86.134.119.16 (talk) 10:40, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This really should be speedy deleted. Vincent Liu (something to say?) 10:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Whether this file and alike should be deleted or not, should be discussed in Wikimedia Commons, not in Wikipedia. Because honestly Jimbo has no power to remove them from the public eyes until a policy to delete any non-historic and unused file is passed in Commons. Before that we're totally powerless to deal with these files due to the opposition from our community. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 11:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be a lot of deletion requests on flowers..., beside the fact that some of the images might be used in future articles would be missing if such a policy passed. I'm not really favoring this image (animations should be video files, for bandwidth and resolution sake), but i also don't know why it shouldn't exist. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 11:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

With 1 more amendment: can be easily produced again or done better. The tolling bells is one of the shining examples of such kind of unused file. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 11:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This has previously been nominated for deletion and kept by the unanimous vote of some of the most respected contributors of Commons. The uploader of that particular image has contributed many valuable images to Commons. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I wish I hadn't clicked on that ...! It looks like one man with an inordinate (and rather undeserved IMHO) amount of pride in his genitalia is using Commons as his private porn stash for gifs and photos of his beloved meat and two veg. Since when did Commons become a repository of 'how to masturbate' gifs? How is that encyclopedic? 86.134.119.16 (talk) 17:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Funny how the same names keep coming up over there when we discuss how problematic Commons is. We have the globally banned sex crimes felon (Beta M), the Beta M cheerleading squad (mattbuck, stefan4), Cirt (of anti-Scientology and anti-Santorum fame), and...Fae (the proverbial "no introduction needed"). Has serious thought been given to the proposal floated a few times to simply disperse whatever material is salvageable to the local wikis to host and simply dissolving Commons itself? Tarc (talk) 13:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tarc on this one. Most of the controversial sexual images on Commons are not being used in any Wikipedia articles, so they drag down the reputation of Wikipedia without providing any serious benefit to the encyclopedia project. Images like the tolling bells animation would be acceptable if there were an 18+ category image filter, but this proposal has been blocked by the lack of consensus.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:19, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

How are discussions at User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Personal_Image_Filter going? JN466 17:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The last time I looked, a couple of days ago, it was full of editors who either oppose any notion of a filter for Wikipedia or who have missed the point that Jimbo's proposal is for a simple filter based on a blacklist of Commons categories. So it appears to be being filibustered by unfocussed waffle, and in the case of some contributors I suspect that's an intentional derailing. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 00:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, unfocused waffle only. Like a working image filter someone happened to mention there. Which is absolutely a distraction, because the whole point of our new Wikipediocracy government is to tell us what images we're allowed to see and which not, which sources we can use and what we can't, which editors will be blackballed in a McCarthyistic campaign and which won't. We should just destroy Commons, ban all the good contributors, why not? The sooner that everyone on Earth has a visceral understanding that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is censorship, to conceal amid a seemingly comprehensive raft of user-contributed "facts" the minor defect that major swathes of information have been taken out according to somebody's political agenda, or somebody's bogus "ethics" about why we can't tell the truth about practically any topic, the sooner it is looked on with universal contempt as an example of the invariable progression of communism to totalitarianism, the sooner those who seriously love knowing the full truth about everything can try to build something new. Probably, completely from scratch, though I would have hoped for better. Wnt (talk) 04:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it's just me, but I think I detected a note of sarcasm in that post... Robofish (talk) 12:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds not like sarcasm to me. It has much more truth in it as exaggeration. The development from a more or less communism alike system to a totalistic, centralized, commercial driven system is more then obvious. At least if i write down the recent top down attempted and imposed changes, draw a line below them and write down a conclusion, then it is hard to construct a very different interpretation. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 12:54, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

The minute you use "communist" or "totalistic" to describe a proposal that is contrary to your ideology, you just sound like a Wikipolitician than a contributor to me. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

It's just the usual amount of exaggeration and worst case picking, as i read it every time at this discussion page. ;-) --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 13:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

What bollocks, Wnt. Nobody is telling you which images you can and can't see. Are Google or Flickr telling you which images you can and can't see? Nope. (Hint: they're filtered.) JN466 12:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

PS: The "working image filter" you mention is distinctly non-working. --JN466 12:38, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthony. So, is this initiative going anywhere, or has it been abandoned? JN466 12:34, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I still haven't been back for a look, mate, so I really couldn't say. Sorry. Some of the discussion there I didn't understand and what I could understand seemed to be off-topic. Jimbo specified a category blacklist-based, project-specific filter. I've proposed an image blacklist-based project-specific filter at Controversial content/Brainstorming, rather than Jimbo's discussion because it doesn't fit his specifications. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is a compendium of all human knowledge, and that includes masturbation techniques. Count Iblis (talk) 02:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

That is an uncommon definition of the word encyclopedia, and one which bears little resemblance to actual examples of encyclopedias. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Completely outside the image itself, Wikipedia is an uncommon example of encyclopedias, and bears little resemblance to other actual encyclopedias. We should probably be accustomed to that. Darryl from Mars (talk) 04:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Are we really that different? If i leave out the facts that our entries are written by volunteers and that it utilizes the advantages of digital media, then there isn't much of a difference. Maybe you can enlighten me why it should be so different- --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 08:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you just haven't been reading these encyclopaedias. ;) WilyD 08:53, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is a compendium of all human knowledge, and that includes the rules of 10 pin bowling and how to start a fire with two sticks. If those are encyclopedias, that information is included, right? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Probably yes. WilyD 06:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Much as the encyclopedias of sexual practices don't include the rules of bowling, the bowling encyclopedias don't include information on sexual practices. An encyclopedia is not a compendium of all human knowledge, it is generally a collection of related material on specific topics or themes (as the links above demonstrate) or an overview of many topics, usually written by experts and edited by professional editors who choose which topics to include and which to leave out. The simple fact of the matter is that Wikipedia is unlike most other encyclopedias and is probably the least representative example of an encyclopedia. Whether or not masturbation techniques belong in WP is a valid question, but redefining a commonly understood word is not the way to convince people. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

But Wikipedia is not limited to specific subject areas, so it should naturally contain whatever is in any other decent encyclopedia. Also, it would be good to have in electronic form what is in paper sources. If in a few decades time we are able create an artificial brain, you could then connect it to Wikipedia and it would have pretty much all of the knowledge about the world as we have, including our sexual practices. Then consider what would happen if we leave out certain topics. The AI would read all of Wikipedia and then it would know that there are certain things it still doesn't know everything about that he can figure out, should be common knowledge to humans. So, it would then ask questions about that. Then if these missing topics were primarily about sexual matter, then so would the questions the AI would ask :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Just be so good and tell people in the next fundraiser that we offer their kids this, as well as all of that. JN466 12:44, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

This is an "OMG think of the children" argument. What is more relevant is that images like these are not being used in Wikipedia articles, and are available without an image filter.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:02, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

I tend to think of it as a "Don't mislead people in your fundraiser" argument. The next fundraiser should not contain any testimonials implying that Wikipedia is a child-safe resource thar's wonderful to use for kids of all ages. JN466 23:10, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not promise to be a child-safe (or adult-safe) resource in line with WP:NOTCENSORED. However, Wikipedia does try to ensure that the use of sexual images in articles is minimal, meritable and article specific. Commons is another country, they do things differently there. I'm not sure that the regular debates over this issue can ever be resolved without hosting Wikipedia's images on-wiki.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:46, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I am talking about fundraiser materials, not the small print in the disclaimer. I gave examples of these testimonials before. Here are a few from the 2011 fundraiser again:

• We are a family that live in the interior of Brazil in a very poor state. We have opened a learning center and work with local children from nearby villages. Wikipedia is INVALUABLE for this work. The knowledge available to them on Wikipedia is a thread of contact with the 'outside world' and empowers them!
• Wikipedia helps me teach my children about the world in a safe, clean and trustworthy manner. Free from bias, banter, commercial interests and risky content. I know I can count on Wikipedia to give well documented answers on almost ever subject imaginable. It truly has become one of the most intriguing successes of the internet!
• What I'm trying to say is that Wikipedia has provided children with a supplemented education outside of the formal school system with the freedom to learn what they find interesting. Wikipedia is helping to create a better future across the globe.
• Wikipedia has been a wonderful recourse for my children and me to learn new terms, knowledge, and culture background as an immigrant family. It is a safe and trustworthy website for children to do their research. I especially moved by the spirits of all the volunteers around the world to make this happen.
• Thanks to websites like 'Wikipedia', children of all ages can continue their endeavor in learning. Kudos Wikipedia on creating a human interface that allows us all to teach and be taught! The future is NOW!

All I am saying is, be honest. Say in the next fundraiser, "We will teach your children about masturbation. We have faithful volunteers who will go into their bathroom, masturbate, and take a video of it with their digital camera, so that your children can see what masturbation looks like, and how it is done." JN466 12:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

• There is not one reason why some sex-ed material on Wikipedia makes it any less useful for operating a learning center in Brazil. The operators of the center have many choices: (a) ignore the porn, it's nothing the kids won't see anyway; (b) install censorware, which if they care, is an issue for any computer that has free access to the internet; (c) supervise the kids intently. They say Wikipedia is useful and I say you don't know better than they do that they're wrong.
• There is not one reason why "porn" on Wikipedia reduces its usefulness for an adult looking for material he can use to teach his children.
• Undoubtedly some of these offerings allow children to gain "supplemental education". I think that for them to learn that censorship is stupid and there's no reason to be afraid of pictures does create a better future across the globe.
• As for the person calling Wikipedia a safe site, well, we both know that there have indeed been quite a few pedophiles here who have been open about their affiliations, and that is presumably only a tiny minority, so that's one who might want to think more carefully. A few explicit photos might have helped him to do that. Wnt (talk) 13:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

All I am saying is, tell people in the fundraiser. Tell them what sex-ed material there is. Tell them plainly, without censorship, that it is Wikimedia volunteers going into the bathroom, having a wank, and uploading a digital camera video of it. Don't make noises that make it sound like Wikipedia is Reader's Digest. Inform people and let them vote with their wallets. JN466 14:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Saying Wikipedia can't have a fundraiser without talking about wanking is like saying they can't have one without talking about the Rorschach test, German postage stamps, Islam in medieval Christian artworks, Agatha Christie plots ... yeah, guess what, they're all desperately offensive to somebody. Sorry, there's no room on the plane for every crackpot who wants to invite himself to the convention. Wnt (talk) 17:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Ah, Agatha Christie plots. I was pretty much the only one to oppose deletion of spoiler warnings (though at least one person has supported me after the fact). But never did I suspect that the same excuses for deleting spoiler warnings would be used to fill Wikipedia with bad amateur porn. I guess keeping spoiler warnings was more important than I thought.

And as for the specific example of the fundraiser, there's a difference between not mentioning everything and not mentioning things that are directly contrary to your own statements. If you're going to state that Wikipedia is especially useful to educate children, the existence of child-unfriendly material directly contradicts what most people will interpret those statements to mean, even if it's true on some literal level because adults can use it to teach their children about sex. Deceit consists of more than literal falsehoods; true but misleading statements are still deceit. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:55, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia and Commons are now miles apart over this issue. If Commons keeps stonewalling over the issue of an image filter, it is not the fault of the encyclopedia project, where there is a consensus that sexual images should have article related merit and not give unnecessary offence.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

In defense of Commons, their scope isn't bound by usage-in-wiki but rather as a repository of freely-licensed material in general. For all the problems I've had with Mbz1 over the years, she's quite a beautiful photographer, and I'm pretty sure a lot of her work isn't used in any articles. Tarc (talk) 13:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Every Commons file is accessible in Wikipedia, and has its own page in Wikipedia. If you search Wikipedia for media on masturbation, the result looks like this: [1]. Among the results is this Wikipedia page: [2]. In addition, there are thousands of links to Commons in Wikipedia, including one on the masturbation page. JN466 14:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Besides, even Wikipedia includes hardcore porn videos in mainspace and lacks 2257 compliance statements for its sexually explicit media. --JN466 14:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

There are different notions of "safe". You can say that something is "not safe" if there is harm done in a scientifically verifiable way. One can also say that something is "not safe" if it violates certain norms without those violations necessarily being proven to cause harm. The sexual content issue falls mostly in the second category, it is not that different from Wikipedia not being safe for Muslims who don't want to see pictures of women who do not cover their faces. Count Iblis (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh please...Reductio ad Hitlerum. DeCausa (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

My argument above based on a real safety issue vs. safety being synonymous with whether or not cerain norms are adhered to, is not "Reductio ad Hitlerum". You may object to the example in the last line after the comma and call that "Reductio ad Hitlerum", but my argument still stands without that part. Count Iblis (talk) 15:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

You may object to the example in the last line after the comma and call that "Reductio ad Hitlerum" . I do & I did. The "Oh please" was for both that and your belief that it is about adherence merely to "certain norms". DeCausa (talk) 15:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

That is not true, Jayen. Anything on Mediawiki:Bad image list is filtered from all but specific pages, including from search results. If you are truly concerned about this, why are you asking about the media you object to here instead of Mediawiki talk:Bad image list? It has served as the project's porn filter since early 2006. It's only insufficient because people would rather try to stir up mass media controversies by complaining about uploads on prominent pages such as here and off-wiki than asking that objectionable uploads be added to the list. Npmay (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Because that isn't the purpose of the bad image list. It is meant for images that are constantly used for vandalism without having any other real method to stop the vandalism. It is not meant to be a list for any maybe objectionable image. -- ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 20:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the difference between vandalism and interminable high profile concern trolling here and via news media organization linking to the most objectionable of such images? Npmay (talk) 20:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be a precautionary reaction without a true reason after the definition of the list. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 07:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid you're quite mistaken, Npmay. To give a (NSFW) example, one of the first images on Mediawiki:Bad image list is File:A dilated male anus.jpg. This file appears in Wikipedia searches: [3], [4] (NSFW). And, to all intents and purposes, the file has its own page in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_dilated_male_anus.jpg (NSFW). --JN466 20:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Great. Sorry. I guess someone should file a bug that new search results don't use display hooks like old search results did. Npmay (talk) 20:38, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Question

Dear Jimbo,

An admin in the Az.wiki has asked me not to use English in the discussions in Az.wiki. I can not write in Azerbaijani, that's why I use English in the discussions. (I also provide a translation by Google Translate.)

He has also asked me not to refer to the rules and policies of the English Wikipedia.

He has mentioned that those who do not obey these two rules are going to be blocked !!!

I need to know your idea about these two issues. Regards, In fact 04:50, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you tell me more about why you are talking in English on the Azeri wikipedia about the rules of English Wikipedia? It is hard for me to form an opinion without more information.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok. There are two different issues:

1- I can speak in Azeri, but I can not write in Azeri language. That's why I use English in my discussions. ( I only use it in my discussions, and not in the articles )

I very much like to contribute in that wiki and I can even create articles like az:Fars körfəzinin Ərəb ölkələri or az:Bandari musiqi with the help of Google Translate.

Am I allowed to use English in my discussions in Az.wiki?

BTW, I have used English in my discussions in other projects, but no one told me anything like that !

2- Can I refer to the rules of the English Wikipedia in Az.wiki ? For instance, in this revision an admin has reverted me. You know I had moved the disambig template to the bottom of the page, but it was reverted !!! ( Not to mention that they do not have a local rule for it ) In fact 07:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Well; the rules of English Wikipedia don't apply to other language projects. They apply only here. And I would imagine that a basic requirement of contributing to Azeri Wiki is being able to communicate in Azeri (we expect a basic level of English here, for example). I'd also be wary of Google Translate; although it is a decent enough tool for "quick" translations, it is not really good enough for, say, decent article content. At least in my experience. --Errant ^(chat!) 08:35, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

It looks to me as if User:In talk has been pestering them on a POV naming issue - I have no strong opinion about the content dispute, as I have no idea what the correct answer is to the most common name in Azeri Wikipedia, but I can say that being a bit more polite than saying things like "I have been waiting for a week, and I was expecting a response!" would be a good idea. In any event, to answer your specific questions, I think it can be ok to speak in English if that is the only language you share in common with people at a particular language wiki (I have done it many times myself, of course), and it can be ok to discuss English language Wikipedia's rules and traditions elsewhere. But both need to be done with great deference and respect if you expect people to listen. NPOV is non-negotiable across all projects, but that doesn't mean that every little detail of the rules here apply elsewhere! And berating people about complex naming choices in a language you can't even read is almost never a good use of your valuable time. Why on earth do you even care?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Just a small correction in your words; I can speak and read Azeri, but I can not write it. In fact 08:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Why is a website not linked to Wikipedia allowed to call itself the 'Wikipedia Review'?

A simple enough question. As it says at the bottom of this and every page, "Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc". If the 'Review' was actually doing anything useful, I could see the benefit of ignoring the infringement, but given its content, the implication that it is anything 'official' is misleading at best. If people want to run a forum for whining about being incapable of complying with policy, for endless gripes about imaginary 'cabals', and for other nonsense, that is their choice - but they should be honest about who they are, or at least about who they aren't. AndyTheGrump 13:15, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

I have no comment on the copyright issue as I am not a lawyer, but I would just like to note that for all intents and purposes the Wikipedia Review is an abandoned website, with just a few last gasps of occasional discussions happening these days. Most of the forums have been defaced with colorful epithets directed at yours truly by a banned user named in another topic above, with no active moderators to clean up. So, one of the Wikipedia's proverbial thorn-in-the-side is for all intents and purposed vanquished, though the Wikipediocracy still soldiers on bravely, if obscurely. Tarc (talk) 13:44, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

• I believe that USC Title 17 §107 allows for Fair Use exemptions, and says: "...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright". Other subsections allow for different other Fair Use exceptions to exclusive use of copyrighted material. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:04, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The term "Wikipedia" is actually trademarked, as opposed to copyrighted. As I understand it, it's permissible for someone to call their site Wikipedia Review, as long as they make it clear that they are not affiliated with Wikipedia or Wikimedia itself, which I think it is pretty common knowledge they are not. After all, someone can have a fan page—or a hate page—about the New York Yankees, and the team couldn't try to stop them from using the word "Yankees," although it could try to stop them from using things like the team logos. In any event, Tarc is correct that for better or worse, Wikipedia Review is basically moribund at this point. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
    • There have been some appalling successes of censorship by claims of trademark dilution, e.g. regarding the "U-Hell Web Site", but from skimming this it sounds like overall the courts have started to wise up. Oh, also see [5], e.g. http://www.ebaysucks.com . Wnt (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Ah, a silly mistake on my part Brad, and one I should know better than to have committed. I stand corrected. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 19:08, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

(Standard disclaimer: the following is not legal nor professional advice.) A name that describes what the establishment does can include trademarks. For example, a "General Motors auto parts supplier" , or "Canon camera repair shop" can use those names; otherwise, the store would be unable to describe its business. As Newyorkbrad said, the establishment has to make its independence from the trademark owner clear. isaacl (talk) 16:52, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

help with red tape

Further information: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 112 § help with red tape

Please help with red tae and bureaucracy. I posted and several people replied but you did not and neither did any administrators. The discussion is in archive 112 which is the most recent of your talk page.

To summarize, five years or so ago I edited on medical topics but then answered a question that a reader posed about a politician. Political supporters then banned me with the fabricated excuse of being a sockpuppet and not being a doctor. I then posted my medical diploma but they just laughed and became sadistic.

A few days ago, I posted on this page and several people suggested IAR and just violate the rules and start a new account. I am afraid that they will use that as an excuse for another ban. Besides, sneaking is unethical Therefore, I ask for your ok to start an account or a pardon with the condition that my summary is accurate. Two administrators giving the ok is almost as good. Please do not ask me to go through bureaucratic hoops. Thank you. 8.18.145.160 (talk) 23:54, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Strange way of editing

Dear Mr. Wales I have recently registered an account after editing without an account for sometime. I have though found the way Wikiepidia is edited formally to be very odd. I am basing this on this discussion.

While I was not have been correct in my original claim of suspicious editing (I will be more careful next time). I find it very strange that good faith editing of a page to maintaining the quality of a page can be treated in such a way.

I have simply placed the page Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics on my watch list and have made frequent edits to the page removing and modifying content, adding in my own content and re-writing content.

I have been accused of "Revert Warring" by removing content which I considered to be of little or no relevance, dubious noteworthiness, little or no encyclopaedic value or was generally not in keeping with the maintenance of a high quality article. I have engaged in lots of discussion on this article as well over the content.

I would like to know if this is what you genuinely think revert warring policies were designed to combat and weather there is a danger that this kind of good faith editing could be driven away by this interpretation of revert warring. Sport and politics (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Comments from AndyTheGrump

• "removing content which I considered..." Did anyone else agree with your opinions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • It doesn't really matter, that is besides the point. If your question refers to the multiple discussions which occurred on the article talk page please view the discussions on the talk page. I am now asking for the opinion of User:Jimbo Wales. Sport and politics (talk) 01:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Sorry, are you saying that it doesn't matter whether whether anyone else agrees with your opinions over what is "of little or no relevance, dubious noteworthiness, little or no encyclopaedic value...", you are still entitled to ignore long-standing policies when it suits you? And yes, I can see that you are asking for Jimbo's opinion. Do you intend to continue to ignore the opinions already given at Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance#Cla68 (talk) Ownership and unfounded clims and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Independnt review required potential suspicious editing, where multiple contributors have tried to explain policy to you. If you do, I can't see why Jimbo's opinion should be so important to you. And come to that, I can't see why Jimbo could even be expected to respond... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
      • Jimbo has an open door policy and its up to him as to if he chooses to respond and its not up to any other user to make that decision for him. It is also not right for any user to say effectively it is wrong to post here as you have implied by saying "come to that, I can't see why Jimbo could even be expected to respond". Reading the talk page of that article in question will show extensive discussions. I now await the response of user: Jimbo Wales on what is an issue which has in my opinion potentially serious implications for good faith editing of articles on Wikipedia. It is though up to him what he decides to do and is for no of us to try and make those decisions for him Sport and politics (talk) 11:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
        • You have expressed your opinions repeatedly. Others have expressed theirs, and are as entitled to comment here as you are. Meanwhile, while waiting for a response, I suggest you read Wikipedia:Appeals to Jimbo. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for removal of adminship

• Wikipedia:Requests for removal of adminship

Hi. I was reading your quote here, and thinking about the various comments you have made concerning adminship over the years. And was wondering what you think of this proposal. - jc37 01:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

WikiFame

Sup Jimbo? I wondered if you wanted a WikiFame, Wikipedia's hall of fame. I think I've already thought out the inaugural class:

• Jimbo Wales (Founder of Wikipedia)
• Larry Sanger (Co-Founder of Wikipedia)
• Ward Cunningham (Inventor of the Wiki)
• Jayemd (Inventor of the WikiFame)
• StrikeEagle (Retired Wikipedian)

So, what do you think? --Jayemd (talk) 03:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• What, no Andrew Schlafly? Joefromrandb (talk) 04:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The verifiable King of Wikipedia is so often forgotten, I notice. Uncle G (talk) 09:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and one more inductee:

• Andrew Schlafly (King Of Wikipedia) (LOL!) --Jayemd (talk) 11:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Is it really right to include yourself? Sport and politics (talk) 11:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Well I invented WikiFame, right? So it would make perfect sense to induct the inventor of WikiFame into the inaugural class.
• I think the creator should have the honour bestowed upon them independently of them-self. Sport and politics (talk) 11:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• Ok! But before I'm inducted, I gotta ask you one question: Would you really want me in the WikiFame? Jayemd (talk) 12:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Listing just Jimbo as founder and no mention of Larry Sanger might have looked innocent. Listing Jimbo and Larry both as co-founders, sure. But listing one as founder and the other as co-founder...? 46.31.205.66 (talk) 12:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• I like it, I mean the Co-Founder. It's good dialectics and it made me laugh, Ajnem (talk) 13:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
  • What about Essjay?·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty sure that Essjay isn't another co-founder. ☺ You'll find that xe is mentioned at Wikipedia:History of Wikipedian processes and people#Notable contributors and has been since 2010. (No, Jayemd, you didn't invent this.) Uncle G (talk) 23:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Late apologies and question

Hi Jimbo. I owe you two apologies. One for posting what was described as having “a chilling effect on discussion” to me later, and one for not having acknowledged and thanked you for the answer you gave me in spite of my terrible blunder some weeks ago. I really am sorry about it. This said, did you have a particular person in mind “at the German chapter [who] may be able to provide some feedback”? If not, I'm going to inform Geoff Brigham and let him handle the problem, if you have no objections. And just out of curiosity, had you read my last post on the thread? In any case, please accept my apologies. Thank you, Ajnem (talk) 14:06, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Why?

Ok, I'll try again- I dont see how things have changed in the 1 1/2 to 2 years since I stopped regularly editing. Those same editors continue to be the same ones I see on Jimbo's page, AN/I and elsewhere for incivility and outrageous behaviour. I dont appreciate my original question being lumped in with another thread and closed out by someone other than Jimbo. It is a legitimate question to wonder why the same people get criticized but nothing happens to them. ps- unless you are Jimbo, since this is his page, please dont close out my thread. If HE doesnt want it here, he more than is capable of saying so, and I will name-drop Tarc and anyone else who is rude to me and to anyone else. I do believe I have the right to mention anyone's name I want. Winston Churchill and Eleanor Roosevelt. There I just name dropped some more.97.88.87.68 (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I would assume it's because the community thinks they're more useful than they are trouble. I don't usually agree with that way of thinking myself, but this has not been a useful method of trying to change it in the past. My second assumption is that this attempt will likely be deleted and/or archived soon. --Onorem♠Dil 19:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

• Many troublemakers leave some do not: I know it is frustrating to see civil, helpful editors struggle against obstruction for years, then get burnout and leave, while the other editors move on to other victims. I was even considering "running for admin" on the platform that I would block trolls, based on a careful analysis of baiting actions and wp:TAGTEAM edits. However, several admins have noted being charged with "admin abuse" for trying to fight various troublemakers. Meanwhile, please understand that many troublesome editors have left Wikipedia, and some have even ranted, in a last ditch effort to insult *everyone*, so their final edits were rev-del'd to censor the obnoxious edit-summary texts. The only hope I see is to raise awareness at wp:ANI; and if they are accepted there, then consider using wp:CLEANSTART to select a new username (under admin guidance), where the troublesome users will not know which usernames to wp:Wikihound any longer. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)