User talk:Jimbo Wales

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RfA (not again!)

Congratulations, you did a fine job on last night's Colbert Report, Jimmy. I understand from User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_122#ArbCom_Appointments_2012 that you want to start a discussion this month to address a number of problems, including "the ongoing admin-appointment situation... a problem which I think most people agree needs to be solved, but for which our usual processes have proven ineffective for change". From this and past statements, I get the sense that you're not looking for more of the same at RfA with a 10% higher promotion rate, you're looking for something more ... substantial. What I'd like to do is to have a quick RfC at RfA to set up ground rules for a new discussion that takes your constraints into account, that is: if an RfC can produce, say, 5 options for you to choose from, would you be willing to do that? How much time do we have? And, can you give us any sense of what "magnitude" of change you'd be willing to consider acceptable? - Dank (push to talk) 14:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I've just gotten home to London (not actually home yet, on a train) and will go to sleep ASAP. Planning to start writing something substantial tomorrow.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Did you get any advice from Colbert on possible changes or does he still believe that Thomas Edison was an alpaca farmer? AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 03:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Having seen the remarkable efficiency with which the general community operates on RfCs, I would sugest instead that the WMF establish an ad hoc discussion forum with invited participants to make such recommendations as they see fit. If we expect the general community to make three or four specific recommendations, we will end up with 20,000 words for each of 100 different choices <g>. Collect (talk) 00:09, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I missed that episode of the Colbert Report. That had to be something to see! I'll have to look for it in re-broadcast.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:35, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I for one want to say thank you Jimbo for taking an interest in this. Unfortunately I, as well as others agree that you are pretty much the last hope of trying to fix the process. RFA has been broken for a long time, everyone knows it, a lot of us have tried to fix it and the community has thus far been incapable of affecting any change. Even now as Dank left the message starting this discussion there has been an explosion of well meaning and well intentioned comments and discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship. Unfortunately I am pessimistic as to what it will lead too. Its been discussed many times but we never come to anything other than an agreement that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. I am hopeful that the solution you come up with will improve the ever dwindling numbers at RFA. Kumioko (talk) 18:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Good point, K, I'll reply to this over at WT:RFA#RfC. - Dank (push to talk) 18:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Jimmy, I think if anyone can fix this problem at Rfa, it will have be you. Since your famous statement that adminship was "No big deal" it has become just that. I truly hope your proposal is substantial yet easy to implement, and makes sense to a supermajority of the editing community. To me the big three issues are the power to block, the lifetime appointment, and the current relative difficulty of de-admining problem admins, especially ones that "play the edge" by skirting the rules in some cases for years. Most importantly, it must be something that does not get talked into the ground. I hope that you will take back a chunk of your former powers and implement these reforms by fiat. However the well-known statement that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" should be ever in your considerations. My best wishes in cutting the Gordian Knot! Jusdafax 22:02, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I think there are a lot of things Jimmy could do here, and I'm sure he'll choose wisely. I'm more concerned about what the history of RfA says about us than I'm concerned about what Jimmy will do. No free society should ever say "we can't solve our problems, please save us from ourselves". We need to keep working on this before, during and after any intervention by Jimmy. - Dank (push to talk) 22:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
• Considering the spectrum of ailments across Wikipedia, I can't imagine a more stringently therapeutic measure than to solve this by exercising leadership of the founder flag! --My76Strat (talk) 22:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

  If memory serves me, Jimmy said he was going to make a proposal, not a "change". Like any other proposal, it would be looked at and discussed by the community. I'm hopeful, since he has been here longer than the rest of us and is far enough removed (but not too far) to have some unique insights, but I don't think he will actually be flexing any Founder bits here. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions at this stage. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:57, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Match fixing investigations of Norwegian Second Division

I don't know anything about Norwegian Football, nor do I have any interest. Perhaps someone who does can assist.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Text suggestion. The Match fixing investigations of Norwegian Second Division association football league are two ongoing investigations that started in 2012 in Norway and in Sweden. The investigations have resulted in police charges pending against nine individuals. Three players from Follo FK and two players from Asker Fotball are among those charged. Norwegian police arrested a player from Follo FK on July 11, 2012. He was charged with receiving stolen goods (siktet for heleri) and for receiving benefits/money from match fixing. Timeline: Norwegian police arrested a player from Follo FK on July 11, 2012. He was charged with receiving stolen goods (siktet for heleri) and for receiving benefits/money from match fixing.ref>Ny Asker-spiller siktet i kampfiksingssaken </ref> Follo FK's trainer, Hans Erik Eriksen on July 14, 2012 admits to having been involved in "illegal acts, linked to the same environment that is being investigated in the [alleged] match fixing case".[1] One player from Asker Fotball was arrested on October 19, 2012. He was charged with assisting in acts of grov corruption and assisting in grov fraud against a Norwegian bookmaker (Norsk Tipping).[2] The police dismissed the case against the trainer of Follo FK, on October 4, 2012. A Swedish prosecutor (Thomas Forsberg) said on December 3, 2012 that Sweden has an investigation that is seperate of Norway's investigation.[3] In advance of this, Swedish police had arrested two inhabitants of Vaxjo, Sweden. --Captain jack straitand narrow (talk) 08:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Reference

Elizabeth Warren continued

Good news, at least. User:Thelmadatter wrote a blog response on Legal Insurrection that explained Wikipedia, it's rules, its editors, and how changes are made to articles. It's a really good response and it covers all the important points. Praise for Thelmadatter! :3

The only thing I would disagree with is the whole conservative/liberal thing, though I do understand that you kinda have to consider the audience of the site there. I mean, it's been pointed out a lot in discussions here that a Centrist viewpoint for the world as a whole is significantly more to the left than what Centrist is in the United States. And we're trying to represent the world here, not just the US, so Wikipedia seems slightly liberal, which is appropriate.

And...yeesh, I don't even want to comment about the comments section there. Scary. Silverseren^C 06:55, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Comment sections tend to make me wonder how humanity survived this long.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I like your wording - "Comment sections" in general. This one is really bad, but no more so than lots of them. Here at Wikipedia we have our discussions and debates, some of them unfortunately more heated than they should be, and some of them dumber than they should be. But it is still a significant cut above even high quality newspapers and blogs.

I think there are a few reasons for this, but one of them is that wiki software is designed in such a fashion to encourage more genuine participatory community rather than either atomistic interactions (i.e. people who don't know each other randomly bumping into each other in a a vacuum) or competitive interactions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:50, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I respect your disagreement with me on that point, Jimmy... but I think some of you are assuming what is in the comments rather than reading them. There are a few angry ones as many if not more thoughtful ones, especially the ones that came later. I dont usually get involved in political stuff in part because its not most important to me Wikipedia-wise and because I do share many people's frustration over how poorly controversial articles can be handled on Wikipedia. However, a lot of that is because how poorly these topics are handled "in the real world" and Wikipedia is simply reflecting that... perhaps in a more overt manner. This is my first foray into something so visible. I have to note the respect I have been given by both Jimmy and Prof. Jacobson with this. Thelmadatter (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thelmadatter, I didn't realize I was disagreeing with you on anything. :-) My point is just that all comment sections in all sources tend to be very disappointing overall. I don't mean your article, which is quite nice, but the random angry people down below. You're right a few more thoughtful ones there. I wish someone could invent a better commenting system.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:52, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Wikipedia Problems

Please Take care of this page, And This site is in Turkish Wikipedia protest blog.--Aguzer|communication^E-M 16:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

+? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.183.196.12 (talk) 05:08, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Academic peer review committees

At Jimmy Wales#Nupedia and the origins of Wikipedia (version of 22:13, 5 January 2013), there is this quotation.

The idea was to have thousands of volunteers writing articles for an online encyclopedia in all languages. Initially we found ourselves organizing the work in a very top-down, structured, academic, old-fashioned way. It was no fun for the volunteer writers because we had a lot of academic peer review committees who would criticize articles and give feedback. It was like handing in an essay at grad school, and basically intimidating to participate in.

I am interested in seeing archived copies of discussions where "academic peer review committees ... would criticize articles and give feedback".
—Wavelength (talk) 01:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

As a side note, that quote does not appear to be fully accurate. It isn't something I wrote, it's something that a reporter wrote down based on what I said... or... alternately I would say it's a misstatement by me in some details. Anyway to answer your question, perhaps someone can point us to the old Nupedia mailing list archives - I don't personally know where they are now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

No I, We are have a problem !

Please !!...78.183.218.42 (talk) 05:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

You can post this, just don't spam it. Prodego ^talk 05:38, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This really does seem like something that needs to be looked into, if the admins on Turkish Wikipedia are indeed banning anyone that disagrees with them or supports any sort of action against them. And, unfortunately, it's not something the Turkish Wikipedia community can fix, since...well, the admins there would just ban them if they tried. Someone from the Foundation needs to step in here. Silverseren^C 10:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

What Seren said. I have no real way of knowing what's going on over there, but something obviously needs to be done. Who it needs to be done to is what needs to be worked out. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:39, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Wikipedia have too problems, this is Real. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.183.44.37 (talk) 11:04, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Just a cursory glance at this page shows a wide consensus that there is a problem that can and will effectively shut down Turkish Wikipedia. A group of sysops have essentially written a manifesto and hijacked the Wiki. You have not contributed, Jimbo. Please do so. This is important, and needs to be resolved. If it is reposted 100 times, it will not be spam. 174.51.31.120 (talk) 11:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Man, I don't read Turkish, but if Google Translate is to be trusted, there is some awful shit going on over there. I still don't think it's been properly summarized in English, though. I haven't been able to find the aforementioned "manifesto", for example. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

It would seem sensible to me for us to ask the Turkish Wikipedians to come here and comment. Over the years, I have heard similar claims about many languages - claims which, upon deeper investigation, turn out to be not true. (Experienced English language Wikipedians can surely imagine what some banned users might say - claiming that "admins on English Wikipedia are banning anyone that disagrees with them". At the same time, if people I trust (Silver seren) have looked into it and found something to be concerned about, then I think it's worth having a closer look, so I shall do that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:43, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Homeopathy article and the parody of Neutral point of view

I always wanted to ask you how is it possible that controversial articles like homeopathy make neutral point of view looks like parody? What is wrong and how it can be corrected - I have no idea - I have no ....conflict of interest but I did and do have good intentions. For a curious editor, it would take 15 min to understand the problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Homeopathy#Heavily_Biased_article. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Motorola12 (talk • contribs) 00:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

This has been a problem for many years. The basic problem with the homeopathy article is that it attracts extremists from both sides: Practising homeopaths who want to present Hahnemann's Gospel as the truth, and enthusiastic members of the "skeptic" community who don't appear to understand science. It's the latter category that really shocked me when I first went to the article under the expectation that I would have to help taking the pseudoscientific garbage out. I had no idea that there is such a thing as hooligan followers of science, and as they bring 'my' side into disrepute I am more annoyed at them than at the homeopathy supporters.

In this environment it is actually rather hard to give sensible, neutral information about the history and practices of homeopathy. Nobody seems interested in that. Everything is considered under one aspect only: "Does it help 'us' or the 'enemy'?"

The Citizendium article, not unlike homeopathy articles in many established encylcopedias, is a disgrace because it is too openly pro-homeopathy. (At least it was last time I looked.) But our article goes too far in the other direction. Consider the current last two sections of the lead:

"Scientific research has found homeopathic remedies ineffective and their postulated mechanisms of action implausible. Within the medical community homeopathy is considered to be quackery."

The first sentence says everything there is to know. The second sentence adds nothing but insult, and even with weak sourcing that does not seem to remotely meet the high standard of WP:RS/AC. It also flies in the face of surprisingly large numbers of regular doctors worldwide who administer homeopathy in one way or another. (The number differs a lot from country to country, but is quite high in Germany and probably still in the UK.) Most likely they use it as a placebo, but I doubt that they think of themselves as quacks. That is not to say that there is no quackery among homeopaths, quite possibly more than among regular doctors.

Our readers have come to expect from Wikipedia an excessively neutral and dispassionate tone. This article, however, shouts right into the reader's face: If you believe in homeopathy there is no need to read on, as we are going to try to teach you otherwise. A neutrally written article will teach such a reader otherwise, and it will not prevent them from reading by using poorly supported insults.

Disclaimer: I have been mostly inactive for almost a year and didn't look at the homeopathy article or its talk page even longer. But my quick research showed that nothing much seems to have changed. Hans Adler 11:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)