User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Civilization Jihad (patiently read please!)

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This relatively poorly written article about a notable subject was deleted multiple times, weirdly enough, as a violation of WP:G11 and at times as a contravention of WP:G10 and none of the times was it allowed a proper AFD discussion, albeit poorly written articles don't necessarily need deletions. Then it was userfied by Someguy1221 with the hopes of improvement.
Thereafter even that user-space draft was also nominated for deletion within 2-3 hours of userfication (same editors who CSDed it, AFDed it commented there)! This much fervor towards deleting the draft struck me as a tad odd to say the least. Moving on, it was dismissively labelled as a "garbage", "conspiracy theory POV", "crackpot theories" by some editor (obviously these labels were left unsourced at the MFD discussion. The irony is even if it were sourced it would only redound to the vindication of its notability). Whatever the raised issues were they were either nonexistent or fully surmountable. Wikipedia has no deadline.
Not to mention, the creator of the article was vilified at the MFD (later blocked with the accusations of sock-puppetry), I was labelled as an "Islamophobe" merely for arguing in favor of that draft. Amazingly enough for me, the reviewing admin (Spartaz) at the MFD was almost readily convinced that this article does not even merit a page in the user-space (which in turn deprived the creator, or any other interested editor, of the chance to rectify the issues) even though the threshold for keeping is much lower in userspace. Now there is no trace of Civilization Jihad on wikipedia.
"Civilization Jihad" is a very notable subject in the United States (be it a phenomenon or an umbrella term for something), it is not a fictitious construct as some have tried to frame it at the MFD discussion. There is no shortage of sources, verifiability is not a problem at all, only language was but it ought not to have served as grounds for deletion, let alone speedy deletion.

I have initiated a DRV seeking to review the speedy deletion of Civilization Jihad. More or less, the same group of editors are endorsing the deletion even now. There primary argument against the article, to me, seems to be (1) "unsubstantiated conspiracy theory" doesn't deserve a page (2) it is somehow promotional and the consensus (who knows when that was established?) is against the subject's inclusion. This local consensus is not acceptable.
This is diametrically antithetical to what Wikipedia stands for, intrepid enunciation of verifiable information regardless of who is getting offended. Now they think the DRV isn't a valid one. What about Ignore all rules and need to use common sense?! Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 08:20, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I can't say I've come across this topic before but when I look at the sources listed at the top of this section, it's abundantly clear that this is something that is being promoted by Islamophobes and whackjobs. That instantly rings warning bells, as does your assertion that it's a "very notable subject in the United States." Wikipedia is not a venue for promoting the latest memes from the fever swamp of America's far right fringe. Prioryman (talk) 09:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

There are 4 endorsements from users not involved in prior discussions so I think your argument about the validity of the DRV lacks merit. After this fails to get you your way, what's next? Should I steel myself for an ANI or will we be jumping directly to an RFC or RFAR in your unceasing effort to keep this content anywhere on wikipedia. Frankly, the only users advocating for this text are you are and the currently blocked GroundRisk. Perhaps everyone else is involved in a conspiracy? Or is it maybe, just maybe, that this text really doesn't belong here. Spartaz ^Humbug! 11:24, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

After DRV you mean? Nothing. I will be going my way and you yours. Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 11:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Well since the DRV still has almost a week to run and you are already here trying to get higher authority to overturn the community process because you don't like the way its going, Ican't see that you can honestly blame me for wondering where next you will be taking this crusade... Spartaz ^Humbug! 11:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen this article, but putting all lawyering aside, the first thing we need is a simple description of the concept. Looking through that long AfD I found that "Civilization Jihad" was attributed by a partisan source [1] to Mohamed Akram of the Muslim Brotherhood, and that another partisan source [2] described Robert Spencer (author) as calling the same thing "Stealth Jihad". The gist of the idea is that Muslims will increase in numbers, take over an area, and impose sharia law. Looking at an item like Kosovo Protestant Evangelical Church, I can see how you can say that's kind of true and kind of not true - not really a fringe claim, even if it is in fringe sources, but then again, it is hard to picture that people of any culture (even atheists), upon getting political power in an area, won't end up trampling former customs.

The question is, is there a way to define the idea precisely enough to make it a proper article topic, or whether it should be left to more generic articles like Criticism of Islam or more specific articles like those about Kosovo or the people mentioned above. And so far, I just don't see a case for pulling out this term that one guy uses and another term that another guy uses but which a third guy says is the same, and saying that's a way to organize Wikipedia. I understand your frustration, I really do, but I think you're trying to get to a valid goal by the wrong route, and you also need to use the kinds of sources you've encountered very carefully, recognizing their highly partisan nature. Wnt (talk) 15:08, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Except, that's not the real problem. The real problem is the incredible amount of time and energy this one user is wasting and what Wikipedia can do to prevent it from happening again and again. He asks us for our patience, but what do we get in return? IDHT and repetitive copy and pastes. No, I'm sorry, but this needs to stop. Viriditas (talk) 00:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I am sick and tired of people abusing Wikipedia rules about content to claim that editorial decisions are not permitted. In this case, it's claiming that the theory can't be excluded as a crackpot theory on the grounds that "obviously these labels were left unsourced at the MFD discussion". You don't need to source an editorial decision in the same sense that you need to source article content. If you wanted to write an article describing it as a crackpot theory, then you would need a source for that claim, but if you wanted to delete it on the grounds that it's a crackpot theory, you would not. Indeed, you might end up concluding that it is a crackpot theory precisely because there are no reliable sources for it. Ken Arromdee (talk) 16:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

You have gone through every single source available on the subject, I presume? Anyway I have withdrawn the nomination and I fear I will have to face retribution just because I've said what I thought. Some are trying to get me banned. You know what, I am tired of watching people bend the relatively straight-forward rules of Wikipedia to achieve whatever they want to in the name of "consensus". Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 16:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

What? Ban? Shut me up?

Viriditas, you're trying to seek retribution against me by attempting to enforce a topic ban? What is this? I said nothing out of my limits. I have not even edited that article much, because I knew something like this would follow. I withdrew the nomination, now you want to seek a ban against me for once saying the subject is consequential as the geocentric model? What is this? [3][4] Are you trying to shut me up this way? Is this overt censorship? Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Is this overt censorship? No it is Wikipedia operating the way it usually does, exercising its rights to decide what article content is acceptable, and who is permitted to edit. It isn't 'censorship' because only governments have the power to engage in censorship. Wikipedia, as a privately-run institution, permits editing by those willing to abide by the rules, but is obliged to do so for no one. If you don't comply with the rules, you don't get to edit. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:40, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

"it is Wikipedia operating the way it usually does" - I don't know much but does Wikipedia ban editors simply for inadvertently putting forth an unfavorable view against a cherished subject of one community? Don't get me wrong I am fully open to an Arbitration Committee review, or Jimbo blocking me (I have high regards for his judicious attitude)..but I am just outright amazed by the rationale given. Is that suitable rationale for a Topic ban? If we ban everybody who contributes to criticisms against a religious community, then we are inherently fostering bias insofar as we are reducing the number of people who would like to introduce some relevant but contentious content in that article. You say wikipedia should not be expected to follow its own set of policies, why?
Having said all that, I believe I am one of "those willing to abide by the rules". Which rule says that I cannot nominate a speedy-deleted article, which I earlier thought was an inappropriate deletion, for review? Yes, that's all I did in that case. And then I withdrew as soon as I realized my review request didn't pass the WP:DRVPURPOSE criterion. I am not a political activist nor do I have an agenda. I simply misconstrued the process. If I am labelled as an Islamophobe simply because I favored a poorly written article about a right-wing theory and banned for this then, I believe, it will be disingenuous not to call it censorship. I am sorry I don't think Wikipedia stands for this. Mr T^{(Talk?) (New thread?)} 06:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any discussion seeking to have you banned, or even topic banned. Based on my knowledge of your standing, everything is in order and at most you have worn some editors patience thin by rebutting the counsel given when it would have been more prudent to acknowledge areas where you had previously been mistaken; like the requirements outlined at WP:DRVPURPOSE, as you have done, or WP:FORUMSHOP, which you are yet to do. You should familiarize yourself with the purpose and application of discretionary sanctions because this is likely the area where you are at greatest risk, and you should do an honest self evaluation to determine if you have a conflict of interest in any area where you may be editing. It's next to impossible to be neutral regarding a topic where your own views are inculcated into your person. Let this thread archive, take what you can from it to better yourself, and move forward and away from the unpleasantness of your recent endeavors. Good luck to you and happy editing. My76Strat (talk) 07:45, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Library

Hey jimbo, do you think wikipeia has reached the point where it can replace libraries in terms of factual knowledge? Pass a Method talk 21:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Obviously, I can't speak for Jimbo, but I don't know anyone knowledgeable about Wikipedia who thinks that Wikipedia can replace libraries, or who would want it to. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:03, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia killed Britannica although nobody wanted to kill Britannica or did they? Wikipedia is replacing libraries as we speak, but not in terms of factual knowledge. If one really cares about the knowledge, one should still go to libraries, except more and more students are getting their factual "knowledge" from Wikipedia.76.126.142.59 (talk) 22:51, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

It was Encarta, and the internet generally that "killed" Britannica (which of course is still there). See the 2004 interview with its Editor in Chief, which doesn't even mention Wikipedia. Johnbod (talk) 03:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

And Encarta too. Britannica is still there, except I meant "Britannica no more: Wikipedia wins ". This is a rather sad victory. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 01:26, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and, as such is a tertiary source, while libraries have all types of sources. Wikipedia could not replace those types of sources, and should not aim to. An encyclopedia summarizes a topic, it does not give the sort of depth of coverage that the primary and secondary sources do, and should never aim to. An encyclopedia will always, to some degree, reflect the particular biases of those who edit it. Also, the quality of most wikipedia articles is very low. Ignoring pop culture, and stubs of villages, hamlets and motorways etc there are perhaps 300,000 or so articles of worthwhile merit on wikipedia; that's far short of being comprehensive in breadth. Wikipedia, and any encyclopedia, is useful for a first glance at a topic, to get some basic familiarity. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:45, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

In the future this may happen, but it may not be Wikipedia but other internet sites that will replace libraries. Also, books will change into electronic versions that are then not restricted to have the linear structure that is defined by the pages of the book. E.g. suppose you want to learn about electromagnetism, then today you would study from a textbook and usually you would have start reading from page 1 even if you are already familiar with 50% of the topic. In practice only people who have mastered the topic at university level are capable of using a text like the one by Jackson as a reference book to quickly look up something without having to spend many hours of study. Then if instead of the book you could read an explanation of what you want to know in terms of more fundamental concepts which you can get explained too if you want that, down to the most fundamental concepts. This would save a lot of studying time for most people. Wikipedia with its wikilinks actually could in principle work like this, but in practice you won't get far if you are a lay person who wants to know the details of, say, quantum field theory. Count Iblis (talk) 12:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

(Christian) clergy titles in article names

I know how much you care about naming conventions for people in general given the number of times you edited a number of these policies/guidelines so I decided to point out yet another title related problem to you.

Since 2006 titles such as King, Queen, Sheik, Sultan, Dr. and boatloads of other titles are unwelcome in article names. Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis such as with Mother Teresa. We have one divergence from this general rule with Christian clergy more notably titles such as Pope, Cardinal, Patriarch and possibly also Saint in article names.

This anomaly in the currently used guideline was added on 04:23, 20 April 2003 without consensus and remained without much discussion. There was some village pump discussion on 00:28, 17 October 2003‎ until issue was mostly forgotten until 2005 as far as I can tell.

When objections are raised people are quick to claim of a previous consensus for this naming convention of which there is no evidence of such a discussion taking place much less an established consensus. This argument isn't a new thing and was pointed out countless times even all the way back on 02:04, 6 October 2006 when one user attempted to semi-force the idea.

This double standard originally applied to Western (Christian) clergy but then was expanded to include Eastern (Christian) clergy for perhaps obvious reasons. So at this point this issue undermines the entire naming convention as because of this exception to Christian clergy other religions and even royalty may want to have their fancy titles back in article names.

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 22:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that these relatively limited exceptions "undermine the entire naming convention"? I don't see an actual problem here. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:12, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Sure. It is fairly easy (also as per WP:NPOV) we either need to promote religious statuses on all other religious leaders and monarchs or else we are giving special treatment to the King and Pope of the Vatican as well as the representative of the legal corporate person the Holy See. C.G.P. Grey on YouTube explains the Pope, Vatican City with fascinating detail.

Queen Elizabeth II whom is not only the head of state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as well as of the Commonwealth Realm but also the supreme leader of the Anglican Church as handed to her by God (per British tradition) making her a religious figure just like the Pope. This religious role is underplayed but it is nevertheless there. Mind that this is hardly unique to Europe as if you look at the Democratic People's Republic of Korea the former head of state had many titles such as 천출위인 (Great Man, Who Descended From Heaven) as well as 천출명장 (Glorious General, Who Descended From Heaven) of which none are put in the article's title. Practically every Caliphate including many Arab & Ottoman Sultans were also heads of state until the title was abolished in 1924. These individuals do not get to keep such a title on their article name. I could list many other examples but the list would quickly clutter this talk page. Furthermore, why shouldn't every other CEO representing a legal corporate person get a fancy title in their article name? After all arguably CEOs of the largest corporations matter far more (in terms of Notability) than the Pope given their influence on global economy.

The reason I mentioned the examples is to demonstrate just how complicated these titles can be. If we are going to give such a massive exception to a group of people, we must do so with good reason of which I can see none here in good faith. Feel free to point any out because nothing is more unwiki than double standards especially if they are arbitrary to begin with.

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 23:18, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The relevant notability guideline is WP:Naming conventions (clergy). You mention developments in 2003 and 2006, which are "ancient history" in Wikipedia terms. There is extensive recent discussion of your point on the talk page of that notability guideline; motivated, I assume, by the recent resignation of a pope. Personally, I like you would prefer "Benedict XVI" as an article title to Pope Benedict XVI, but the consensus in that discussion is clear, and is against your point.

I would submit that this is not a "massive exception", as it involves just several hundred clearly defined articles. You can speculate all you want about efforts to incorporate North Korean titles or corporate titles into article names. I see no evidence whatsoever of that happening, or of this issue spilling over into other broader areas of article naming. Why we have Queen Victoria but Elizabeth II, I do not know, but I am also not interested in rocking that boat. I suggest that you read the talk page of the guideline, and abide by the consensus, even though you disagree with it. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The fact that we do have a Queen Victoria while having Elizabeth II shows that there is a naming convention inconsistency beyond what is being talked about and a larger discussion and rewrite should occur (though Victoria is often referred by the full title in pop culture every-day-speak whereas Liz 2 was not... most likely the origin of the inconsistency). And I'm disturbed by the fact that Christian clergy is given different guidelines on naming. Consensus or not there is no reason anyone should just "abide by the consensus" and not question it, though I'm sure Cullen328 is only saying to not vandalize; surely Cullen328 is not implying that people have no right to question the consensus, bring up good points, and sway people to see perhaps a new way is possible and better. Surely we can agree that naming convention guidelines for ALL religious leaders should be consistent and that a separate guideline for one religion is not the best way? A general guideline done by a large community consensus would be best, instead of a localized consensus by those who have a vested interest already in Christian leadership. How would the community feel if wikiproject for Judaism decided that Rabbi (or Rebbe) would precede all rabbi's articles? If your answer is that of course rabbi's should not have such naming then obviously neither should Christian clergy.97.85.242.177 (talk) 04:52, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course, I am not implying that consensus can never change, and I hope that I made clear that I would personally support such a change. Rather, I am correcting the impression created that there was no consensus, and that the issue had not been debated recently. It was debated recently, and quite a few editors offered their opinions. Personally, I oppose discussing these sorts of issues over and over again, without time for reflection and study of consequences. If it is shown that there is a spillover effect on North Korean articles or corporate CEO articles or articles of any other type, then I would be less opposed to revisiting the issue immediately. Consistency is a good thing in general, but it is not an absolute requirement, and exceptions to general rules are often made, as in this case. Accepting consensus even when one disagrees personally is an important trait of a really useful editor here.

As for comparing articles about rabbis to articles about popes, I have a unique personal perspective. I was born and raised Catholic, later converted to Judaism, and have written a biography of a rabbi, Joseph Asher. I know enough about the two religions to understand that that Judaism has no central authority while Roman Catholicism is hierarchical, and that popes pretty much abandon their birth names, while rabbis do not. The comparison you made is, in my view, not valid for those reasons. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:10, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Just as a thought, can I suggest that perhaps Queen Victoria was adopted because Victoria has multiple meanings and that was a more elegant way to disambiguate the title than Victoria (Queen)? —sroc (talk) 11:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Cullen328, please see- Chief Rabbi. Also there have been in the past 50 years at least one Rebbe in Brooklyn who had been declared the Messiah (his death obviously disqualified him, though like another 2000 yrs ago there are some followers who hold on, and one day they too may be excommunicated from the Jewish community for heresy and become a separate religion). Though yes, rabbis are religious/law TEACHERS analogous to lawyers and judges and are still laymen (similar to elder in Presbyterian or deacon, it is not actually a religious leadership title analogous to priest, bishop, cardinal, minister, etc. Rabbis is comparable with Imam in the Muslim religion. The Kohen are the Priests of the Jewish religion, and still have a significant religious role in prayer in the synagogue even though their duties at the Temple are unable to be fulfilled since the Temple does not exist. Point in all this anyways is that- Christianity is getting "special" treatment; though I guess the idea is now that it gets special treatment because many of its branches are episcopal... well most non-Christian religions do not have a hierarchy.97.85.242.177 (talk) 12:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

All this technical detail is great but Christianity is just another religion as far as Wikipedia content is concerned. If we give a special status to Christianity we are either undermining other religions or we are essentially encouraging other religions to seek a special status as well which promotes them to a special status over Kings/Queens/Presidents/Prime Ministers/etc which is not the kind of message we want to give. Consider Akihito, the Japanese Emperor. He has no fancy titles around his article name. This is with good reason. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 14:55, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

My point exactly we are giving a special privilege to Christian clergy for the sake of it. You are pointing to a disambiguation problem which can be dealt with on a case by case basis. Currently we have article names with the "Pope" title in them even if there is no disambiguation conflict. Currently Benedict XVI redirects to Pope Benedict XVI and as far as I know in history there has been only one Benedict XVI so putting a "Pope" in front of "Benedict XVI" is pointless.

Should Queen Victoria be renamed to something else? My instinct would be a "yes" but Victoria is among the most notable figures in British & World history (Victorian era is named after her after all). Most popes aren't notable beyond the walls of the Vatican globally. I'd suggest a rename of Queen Victoria to Victoria of the United Kingdom (with Queen Victoria redirecting of course) to eliminate the "Queen" in the article name but as I said I am hesitating due to the overwhelming notability of Victoria. As mentioned before the only reason why we even entertain the thought of putting a title in front of Victoria is because of a need for disambiguation and looking at the move request for it I can tell this issue is very complicated.

Among all British Monarchs how many others have a title in their article name? Among Popes how many are there without the "Pope" title? All?! Can a few popes have the same exception Victoria has? Sure, if and only if the following conditions are met

• There is a need for disambiguation
• The person is notable enough in history for WP:COMMONNAME to apply. (not my preference but it is the consensus)

Otherwise normal disambiguation guidelines would apply.

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 13:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Anne, Queen of Great Britain, Charles, Prince of Wales, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, Stephen, King of England, John, King of England, Leopold, Prince of Hohenzollern ... John lilburne (talk) 22:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Note: The use of titles is not exclusively Christian on Wikipedia (vide 14th Dalai Lama, etc.) and most of the above is not actually important. "Rabbi" historically was an honorific which did not have specific requirements, thus is not relevant here. Degrees earned are also generally not used in article titles. Queen Victoria was never widely known as "Victoria" other than after her ascendancy to the throne (she was Princess Alexandrina) thus the "Queen" is specifically applicable to her name as queen. Thus - usage appears to be if the name associated with the title is not the given name of the person, then the title is also used with the name as a practical result. And this does appear to be how Wikipedia generally uses the titles (other than "Saint" which is so infrequently a problem with editors that it is fairly moot). I think this covers everything above. Collect (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

There has not been a single monarch known by their name without their title. Under normal circumstances we do not put titles in article names. There needs to be a reason why we would want to make such an exception for Popes and not others. You are not even attempting to provide any reason why Popes should be treated any differently than anyone else.

Again what you mentioned is a disambiguation problem. Would anyone not realize Benedict XVI as former Pope? Is there another Benedict XVI? As for the specific issue you pointed out, it seems like all articles on Dalai Lama lineage have a numbered Dalai Lama representation (nth Dalai Lama). I do not know enough on Dalai Lama as to why is this but that is a smaller problem with only 14 articles. The problem here is that the name itself isn't used at all, if this is the common way to refer to a Dalai Lama then it may be fine. Popes have actual names aside from their titles and in such a case the title should be unwelcome per common practice for articles on all people. Since we are talking about common names and Victorian era, David Livingstone was an icon in it and is more popularly known as "Dr. Livingstone" (redirects) which even lead to the popular quotation "Dr. Livingstone, I presume?". Despite this the title isn't in the article name. This is the example discussed in the guideline.

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 17:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

So much fun to poke holes in "absolute" statements -- try "Louis Quatorze" - we do not call him "King Louis XIV" as a rule either in real life or on Wikipedia. Now try finding actual "rules". --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Collect (talk • contribs) 06:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Point is his article name does not have the title "King" as we avoid titles in names as much as possible, then we consider if there is a more common name. "Louis Quatorze" isn't mentioned once in article content so I cannot see the terms relevance. I also do not believe that it is that important because your example's article name is Louis XIV of France which follows the guideline I am proposing to apply to Popes just like how it applies to everyone else. After all there is no disambiguation problem. There exists only one "Louis XIV" in history. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 12:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The claim made above was There has not been a single monarch known by their name without their title which I disproved. Period. As stated. And I showed that titles are used for people who are specifically not Christian. As claimed. I could have chosen "Louis I" by the way, but was being nice enough to use an article name which is a redirect for people who are excessively literate. Thus this entire section of this talk page seeks to solve something which is not a problem on Wikipedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Titles are used for every Pope which breaks convention used for everyone else. We do not use titles for other royalty or religious leaders practically all the time including your example. If you look at Louis I none of the Louis I's have a title in their article name including Louis the Pious as it isn't King Louis. Current Pope should have an article name such as Francis of the Vatican rather than Pope Francis, just look at Francis only the Pope has a title in the article name. This is the problem. Popes are no more special than any other individual. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 16:13, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

@A Certain White Cat, you raised this at Talk:Pope Francis, and were told that this had been just been discussed and consensus was against you. You then raised it at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy) and were told that it had just been discussed there too and consensus was against you. And now here. Don't you get that you are only raising points which have already been discussed at length and in detail a few weeks ago, you've raised nothing new and consensus is against you. DeCausa (talk) 19:21, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not satisfied with the responses I got so far. I have made reasonable arguments and have not seen a single good counter-arguments so far. Why do we need to apply a special status to Popes different from everyone else? The consensus you mention fails to satisfy such a simple question. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 21:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem with the consensus that have been reached in the past, even recently, are that they are localized to those who have a working relationship with the subject, and is not a community-wide consensus reflecting a consistent policy across more than just popes. Popes, or the Christian episcopal naming convention as a whole, should not have their own guideline made up by the sub-community of Christianity. My point about rabbis was that if the Jewish editor community came up with their own guideline regarding naming conventions there would be hell to pay (but I guess it would be gehenna to pay, since hell is not a Jewish concept nor found in the Tanakh/Old Testament). If the Jewish community would see a backlash against trying to come up with their own naming convention, then so too should the Christian community be blocked from having their own special terms simply based on "consensus". Consistency needs to override consensus sometimes.97.85.242.177 (talk) 02:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Not every decision requires wide ranging discussions involving hundreds of editors. So far the only real argument against the current naming conventions is IDONTLIKEIT. Reading White Cat's arguments, all I am seeing are false dilemma fallacies, statements that are assumed to be true simply because White Cat Says So, and finally a Run To Jimbo. But in my view - as someone who has no involvement with either religious or royal biographies, the current conventions uphold COMMONNAME rather than undermine it. I almost never hear of a pope named without the title "Pope", and likewise, it is very common for Elizabeth II, for instance, to be noted without the word "Queen". The article titles are appropriate, IMNSHO. Resolute 03:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Really?

• ("Elizabeth II" -"Queen Elizabeth II") 7,190,000 results vs ("Queen Elizabeth II") 29,300,000 results. 29,300,000 / (7,190,000 + 29,300,000) = 0.8029597149904083 ~ 80.3% of references to "Elizabeth II" has "Queen" in front of it.
• ("Benedict XVI" -"Pope Benedict XVI") 11,000,000 results vs "Pope Benedict XVI" 30,500,000 results. 30,500,000 / (11,000,000 + 30,500,000) = 0.7349397590361446 ~ 73.49% of references to "Benedict XVI" had "Pope" in front.

Math suggests people are more likely to attach "Queen" in front of Elizabeth II than "Pope" in front of Benedict XVI. Having titles such as King/Queen/Princess/President/Dr./(Prime) Minister/General/etc. in front of names for people is common practice as such people are more commonly associated with their job title. Here on Wikipedia we per guidelines, policy and practice based on community-wide consensus we do not normally put job related titles in article names on people. WP:COMMONNAME is intended to give articles a name that people are commonly known for which may either be a nickname or may exclude middle/other names which is why its Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton) or Lady Gaga (not: Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta). There are only a few exceptions to this general rule such as Queen Victoria as previously mentioned. With Popes it is always an exception which is bizarre. Why are Popes to be always treated differently?

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 11:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

@IP97.85: "not a community-wide consensus reflecting a consistent policy across more than just popes". In fact the consensus was reached at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy) and closed on 10 April 2013. It's difficult to see a more appropriate place to reach a community wide consensus on this. @A Certain White Cat: you say you are "not satisfied" with the consensus. Whilst consensus can change, you seem not to understand a pretty basic aspect of WP:CONSENSUS. DeCausa (talk) 11:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

There is site-wide consensus against titles in article names. A general exception to this consensus requires a site-wide consensus. The discussion you linked suffers from Consensus-building pitfalls and errors hence it isn't much of a consensus and more of a series of potentially canvassed drive-by oppose votes. The WP:SNOW comments on the linked page support this assessment as people were more interested in ending the vote rather than engage in discussion. I do not feel most of the oppose vote comments by people do not have much of a substance. People even opposed renaming Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) → Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Christian clergy) establishing the actual scope of the guideline but clearly Christianity is given an exception over other regions as we are to assume its the default religion. There is a very serious bias there. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 12:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's just kinda too bad, now isn't it? The consensus of a discussion didn't go your way, you don't have the right to just ignore it because you don't like thw hows and the whys of people's opinions. We went through this same junk last year with the Muhammad image censorship debate; consensus was crystal-clear, but some editors ignored that anyways and keeps hammering away. Tarc (talk) 13:02, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Really? I think a simple question such as "Why do article names on Popes have a special exception on Wikipedia to existing consensus/guidelines/policies?" should have a simple self evdient answer. If the consensusstraw poll you mentioned is full of "no need for change" votes it is pretty weak to begin with devoid of reasoning hence not much of a consensus. Comments with more substance also does not hold as demonstrated above. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 13:14, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, really. Perhaps the reason is that this is the en.wikipedia, i.e. English, for the Western world where Christianity is still the prevailing religion. I see nothing wrong with recognizing that the title of "Pope..." is inherently tied to the person who currently holds the position. Tarc (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This isn't western world-pedia either. Wikipedia is written with a WP:NPOV which doesn't seem to interest you much. For that reason and others we do not put titles in article names for everyone else - Presidents, Kings, Queens, Ministers, etc. included. There needs to be a good reason why Popes are given a broad exception to the guidelines. If I understand correctly your reasoning is that because this is English Wikipedia, Christianity should be the default religion and be granted all sorts of exceptions? I do not want to misinterpret which is why I am asking. If that is the case can we please establish it in a policy? -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 14:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Page view stats crashing on some, but not all, articles

See: "wp:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_110#Sudden drop in pageviews" and

see: "wp:Village_pump_(technical)#Relinking Google for SSL https". -Wikid77 16:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Mr Wales. I have noticed recently that a number of important articles have suffered a precipitous decline (two thirds to three quarters) in page views over the last month. E.g., Schizophrenia, Cancer and Depression. (I just checked the stats of seven medical articles, and these three were exhibiting this peculiar pattern.) I've asked at the Village Pump Misc. and Tech. but got no explanation. I've just left the question on a tech. staff member's talk page, but I was wondering if you might have any idea what's behind this. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:47, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Pageviews drop 75% with Google https secure-server links: For the articles "Schizophrenia" and "Cancer" with Google links by "https:" prefix, the pageviews can be expected to drop by 75% in April 2013, as with articles "Gone with the Wind (film)" and "Parabola". There have been prior extensive discussions (here+wp:PUMPTECH) about the drops, which began near the end of March, but coincided with Good Friday to Easter drops in readership, which clouded the impacts at the time. I tried to rename "Parabola" temporarily to "Parabola (mathematics)" (which Google newly linked by "http:" prefix), but an admin went bonkers and renamed it back, proving that a double-rename within 2 days does not clear the "https" link, but thwarting any further attempts to fix the "https:" links. For example, if "Schizophrenia" were renamed as "Schizophrenia (medical)" then it would likely supplant the current Google "https:" link to "Schizophrenia" (after a few weeks), and perhaps the overall pageviews would increase back to typical prior levels. Another issue, complicating the pageview counts is the potential for an accounting error as severely under-counting the https-protocol pageviews (by 80% too few?). That's the status so far. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:11, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I didn't understand much of that. Are 66%-75% fewer people visiting those articles, or is it just an accounting thing? Are you saying that Parabola exists on both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabola and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parabola; Google now links its readers to https version, but we're only counting readers of http version? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:32, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

See answer below. -Wikid77 15:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

You should speak to User:West.andrew.g. He's the expert on pageviews around here. Pass a Method talk 13:37, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

I've asked. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:18, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hard to know where to post in this busy thread. I do indeed consume the raw data and store it locally to support the WP:5000 and my anti-damage research (you may also find my Signpost article interesting). Rather than stirring up discussion here (where few/none of the technical players are watching), there is an analytics mailing list that would put you in touch with those knowledgeable about how the raw data is generated. I highly suspect this is a technical issue in the HTTPS counting operation, rendering this discussion of Google gamesmanship/hacking unnecessary. Thanks, West.andrew.g (talk) 06:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

• Current discussions indicate fewer readers view those pages so fix Google links: The data tends to indicate that 66%-75% fewer people have visited those articles with Google https-links, because the related developers think https Internet requests are properly logged (after recent software changes) as not an accounting error of undercounting pageviews. Hence, my fear is the https-links are actually detering user pageviews, perhaps due to https security certificate warnings in some browser, which might scare readers to say "no" when asked to continue viewing page. Meanwhile, Bing.com does not have "https" (only "http:") links for those pages. If allowed, I would rename pages and wait a few days/weeks for Google to favor http-protocol titles:
  • Rename "Parabola" back to typical "Parabola (mathematics)" and wait a week.
  • Rename "Cancer" over redirect "Cancer (disease)" and wait a week.
  • Rename "Gone with the Wind (film)" to new "Gone with the Wind (films)" (plural).
  • Rename "Schizophrenia" to new "Schizophrenia (medical)" as non-http link.
  • Rename "List of best-selling books" to new "List of best-seller books" and rename back weeks later.
• As long as the renames leave the original title, as a redirect, then all prior links, or navboxes, will continue to connect the pages. However, the new page titles will be listed by Google as normal http-protocol, rather than SSL secure-server, https-protocol links. And, within a few weeks, the new titles will rank higher (above the renames) in Google Search. The problem is that, for many people voicing opinions, these renames might seem like "playing Chess" to solve a problem (aka "my brain hurts"), but we need to solve this problem, even if mind-numbing, before it continues to deter pageviews for another whole month. -Wikid77 15:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Why would a rename make Google index the http link instead of the https link? And why on earth should we consider it a good thing to have Google link to the http link instead of the https link? --Conti|✉ 15:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Renaming pages is a move in Google-Chess to reindex pages: The action of renaming a Wikipedia page, in the past, has caused Google to index the new title by a normal "http:" protocol link, while the prior name becomes a redirect, still linked by https secure-server link. After a few days, the new title is likely to be listed on the typical search-results page, while the old redirect drops lower. However, there is no "make Google" to do anything, because this whole process is somewhat of a "Google-Chess" game, where the opponent is free to react with other moves, and we would perhaps counter with other new actions. When Google links to a page by "https" prefix, then some browsers warn the user to allow a security certificate mismatch, perhaps asking several times before the pageview would occur, and so some users are likely to say "no" and the https-link page title does not get viewed by their browsers. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    • This is surely a stupid question, but... why would a professionally maintained site like Wikipedia be generating security certificate mismatch errors anyway? (I know it happens on other such sites, I just don't understand it.) Wnt (talk) 19:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Some browsers ask about the security certificate, before each website visited. -Wikid77 16:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• • • This all seems a bit tragic. If my small sample of medical articles is anything to go by, and these results are real not a counting mistake, Google linking to an article via https reduces our page views to, I don't know, 2007 levels? Is there someone at the Foundation who's in a position to give authoritative answers to these questions? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Yes, and xe gave an answer several weeks ago on the Technical Village Pump. If you want such things, the archives of the Pump are the place to look, not Jimbo Wales' user talk page. Here, you only get garbled re-tellings with randomly boldfaced sentences. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 12:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

That link is all questions and no answers. The only explanation there is a correction of previously double-counted https traffic. But the pattern is a sudden drop of between two thirds and three quarters - more in some cases - not a 50% drop. Perhaps there's nothing to worry about here, but we don't yet know that. I asked at User talk:Eloquence and User:West.andrew.g. Should I be asking someone else? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:17, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Why doesn't the WMF provide this information?

The page view statistics are not provided as part of Wikipedia or even as a service on the often unreliable toolserver but from a third-party site. I assume that the owner of this site is not compensated for this service and is under no obligation to continue providing it. I'm sure this question has been asked many times before, but why does the WMF not provide these statistics themselves? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, and why don't editors get paid, either? It almost seems like the WMF exploits voluntary work! I know it's all fun finding yet another argument why the WMF is the devil incarnate, but if people voluntarily provide stats like that, it's kind of hard to fault the WMF for letting them do that. --Conti|✉ 23:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Provided they're reliable. If the Foundation could provide more accurate/detailed figures, I wish they would. I'd like to know what percentage of readers spend less than 1 minute and more that 5 minutes on the page for one thing. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
    • I've been asking for years why the WMF doesn't support stats. They are, after all, a key measure of how much readership Wikipedia's getting and it really wouldn't be hard to do. However, apparently fluff like Wikipedia:Notifications has a higher priority. C'est la vie. Prioryman (talk) 07:02, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Conti, I'm not trying to find fault with the WMF, I'm simply asking why they don't do this themselves. It doesn't make sense to me that we are relying on a third-party site to provide something that is obviously valuable to some users of WP. Valuable enough that a link to the site is included on the history page of every article. It seems simple enough for the WMF to provide this service using their servers (and perhaps enhancing it with data that third parties would not be able to access, like showing which countries page viewers are coming from). Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:36, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
• Read the about page on that site. The is hosted here - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 07:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, raw data, but not analytics. The latter is done by the privately-hosted stats.grok.se toolserver. It's the latter that the WMF needs to take on. Prioryman (talk) 07:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I'd provide a long explanation of why it's impossible, absent a gross invasion of the privacy of millions of people, to tell whether people read a WWW page on their browser screens for 1 minute or for 5 minutes, but there's an encyclopaedia around here that already explains (albeit somewhat inexpertly) Hypertext Transfer Protocol, the client-server model, pull technology, stateless protocols, representational state transfer, and indeed web analytics and Internet privacy. Uncle G (talk) 12:55, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

You can't give us the executive summary? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:51, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The executive summary is that it can be done, and already is in enterprise-level analytics products, without any "invasion of privacy". It's simply a matter of recording the interval between sequential page views from a particular combination of IP address and user agent. If my IP and user agent accesses Talk:Jimbo Wales at 08:15 and then goes on to access WP:AN/I at 08:20, it can be inferred that I've just spent five minutes reading Jimbo's user talk page. Prioryman (talk) 07:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a prime example of the WMF spending time, money and effort on zero gain projects like WikiLove or the New discussion crap and not focusing enough or at all on projects that do have value like fixing the RFA process, improvements to the new pages patroller tool or things like the page view stats. Even some of the bots should IMO could or should be done by the foundation. There was a banner recently asking about how to spend money. There is an idea, maintain the toolserver and do some of these tasks that are important instead of wasting time and effort on Zero sum gain projects that no one cares about, wants or doesn't add value to the project. Kumioko (talk) 14:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I care about pretty much everything the technical team is doing. Notifications is useful (though the implementation is clumsey and a bit tone deaf); their mobile and tablet work is essential; as is wysiwyg editing; and I'm getting very sick of the appalling carping I've seen directed toward them. But I agree there are other technical issues that need addressing. Perhaps we need an RfC discussing what the editing community's tech. priorities are - to inform the Foundation. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

The most frustrating thing is that, were the WMF to actually provide viewer numbers like that themselves, this page would now be full of people complaining that the WMF is wasting money because they basically duplicated the information that is already present and readily available to all (and the old stats site looks better, anyhow!). More likely than not, it would have been the same people complaining about it, too.. --Conti|✉ 23:10, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

There's no need for the WMF to duplicate. Just take over the stats.grok.se service and have it supported by WMF technical staff. Prioryman (talk) 07:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

All of this is dependent on what was being counted. If the page view counts aren't removing bots and spiders then you'll have wildly inaccurate data. For example one stats package I used always reported twice the number of hits than other packages because it didn't filter out the googlebot crawls. John lilburne (talk) 09:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

WTF? Now the edit button is moved?

Jimbo, WTF? Why are all these changes made with no notice. And why can't the people who don't like them have the option to keep it the way they like? Now the edit button is not on the right and is over by the section heading. My hand keeps going to the right and nothing is there!! Bottom line: change stuff if you want, but: 1) notify the community not just the Inner Jimbo Sanctum 2) Don't force crap down our throat, leave us the option to keep what we like. PumpkinSky talk 01:01, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

My guess is that you WMF guys are doing this to bring in new editors, but there will NEVER be a substantial increase in the active user base until the problems in this blog are fixed. PumpkinSky talk 01:08, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I thought I'd visit that blog and pass along any useful recommendations to the tech team. Point 1 is "The inherent pettiness, greed, and selfishness of mankind." With all due respect to our excellent engineers, I do not think fixing that is within their capabilities.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#.5Bedit.5D_moved. Seems it can be fixed.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:35, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Calling a post in VP-TEch "an announcement" doesn't cut it. And requiring coding to undo WMF's fuck ups is UNSAT. PumpkinSky talk 01:39, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Another example of the WMF stepping up and making some decisions. If we as a community aren't going to do it then I'm glad the WMF is even if I don't like the changes they are implementing. The edit button is no big deal but the discussion change and removal of the orange bar was just plumb dumb. Kumioko (talk) 02:06, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

This is probably not the forum to discuss it though. Should we remove our comments and this section? I doubt Mr. Wales can influence it without consensus.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe he likes to monitor the pulse of the community, so doesn't mind these threads, as long as they don't go overboard. On the merits, I like the change, in fact, I had enabled it via gadgets months ago. On the announcement, this fits in with a recent theme, where a number of changes have occurred which have turned out to be surprises for the community. While the response has been to point to multiple places it was discussed, we might consider a better way to communicate these announcements. Neither Village Pump Technical nor Village Pump Miscellaneous strike me as ideal venues for such announcements.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)