User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Internet versus vaccines

Jimbo, do you truly believe that giving the free Internet access to the poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.41.73 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Good job, IP. Keep Der Jimbo on the edge of his seat. Sooner or later he needs to take control of Wikipedia to institute a governance system, and on a broader level needs to make the compromises that will allow this encyclopedia—and free knowledge as a whole—to prosper. Wer900 • talk 16:35, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Two editors who are not here to build the encyclopedia. The first one is a troll asking a trick question, to which Jimbo gave a wise answer. The second is pushing an almost incomprehensible governance agenda by means of false statements, and thinks that his governance agenda is so brilliant and memorable that he expects readers of his page to have memorized it. Thank you for giving a wise answer to a trick question, Jimbo. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Give a man a fish and a fishing rod today, and then give him the Wikipedia article Sustainable fishery tomorrow --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I do not think that giving free Internet access to poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water. I think precisely the opposite and have said so publicly many times. I am a great admirer of Bill Gates' work particularly on the development of vaccines, but also the work of the Gates Foundation more generally to take a reasoned and well-financed approach to a great many global problems. Bill Gates is a very smart man and almost never wrong about these matters.

At the same time, I think it wrong to think of these things as being "either/or" - the solution to the problems of the very poor is multi-faceted, and people who are interested to help should feel free to do so in whatever way best suits their own talents, abilities, and expertise. Giving people free access to the Internet (or to Wikipedia) will not solve their problems with lack of water and vaccines - but solving their problems with lack of water and vaccines won't automatically give them the tools they need to overcome the tyrannies that have plagued them. Wikipedia volunteers should not drop their work on the grounds that the poorest of the poor need vaccines more - most of us can't meaningfully contribute to that problem. Mobile carriers shouldn't refuse to take positive steps to offer educational/health resources for free in these areas on the grounds that they need vaccines even more.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, emergency assistance is needed in many areas, and there are a lot of organizations working on that. They do good work and should be commended for that. But over the longer term, education may allow these areas to develop the infrastructure and educated population that will render such assistance unnecessary. The Internet is a powerful tool to provide that, and so getting that to underserved populations is an important goal as well. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the Gates Foundation has a bad record in U.S. education; some of their more drastic experiments in tinkering with the structure of schools and schooling have destroyed schools and deprived students of their chances, to an extent that the students and schools involved may never entirely recover from (ask anybody involved in the "break up North Division High" fiasco here in Milwaukee). --02:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime." A great old saying, but it does not imply that a starving man should not be given a fish today (to eat while learning to fish!).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It is worth noting, as Jimbo implied, that the world economy and people of good will are capable of working on providing clean water, vaccines and improved internet access simultaneously. And several other good things as well. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Developing a modern electronic infrastructure in a developing country will allow such a country to build up their infrastructure in cheaper and more effective way. E.g. in Afghanistan it may be more practical to build mobile networks and then set up virtual government offices, virtual police stations etc. etc. That has the advantage that people from remote locations don't need to travel over poor roads. This then allows the government to have a presence also in remote locations, the lack of this presence is allowing insurgents to have more influence. A physical police station in some remote location is also an easy target for insurgents. Also, if there is a local police station in a remote location, you can't go there and report some crime without the whole village finding out about that. You can even imagine a virtual parliament were politicians can meet that is far less costly than a real physical parliament building which would require a lot of security. Count Iblis (talk) 14:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Nice response but as one of your user correctly pointed out first a man should get a fishing rod and then thought how to fish. There's something the WMF could do to help. Every year the WMF collects in donations much more money that is needed to run Wikipedia. Why don't donate a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization? 69.181.41.73 (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, is that true? Could User:Wnt or someone else knowledgeable please let us know if the WMF really collects a considerable amount of extra money.Camelbinky (talk) 17:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This wasn't my thread, but I can know as much as anyone who reads this. If I read it, that is! :) For example, I see it says that the Wikimedia Shop we were talking below processed a whole 2000 orders in 2012-13! :) Wnt (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, no, it isn't true. It is true that the WMF has been modestly increasing reserves each year in line with the overall growth of revenue/budget/projects, but that growth has been squarely in line with recommended best practices for nonprofit organizations. If we spent every penny which came in, without building a reserve, people would be rightly critical of us for doing that. If we grew a reserve endlessly and out of line with best governance norms, people would be rightly critical of that. There can and should be some debate about what the appropriate level of reserves is, and some debate about whether we should be pursuing an endowment strategy (i.e. trying to get enough money now such that Wikipedia could survive and thrive from interest earnings alone, or some other similar target). But the ip's allegation is just not very helpful nor particularly reasonable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, Jimbo has just proved the point I made: Wikipedia collects much more money that are needed to run the site, as a matter of fact it collects so much more that they hope that one day "Wikipedia could survive and thrive from interest earnings alone".

Jimbo, saving is a good strategy for most people and organizations, but hardly for Wikipedia. As long as Wikipedia is as popular as it is now, there always will be enough money donated every year for it not only to survive, but to thrive. On the other hand if for one reason or another Wikipedia stops being popular, no interest income would make it to thrive or even to survive. The bottom line is: the WMF collects much more money that are need to run the site, and the WMF would have looked much better, if it donated a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 17:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jimbo, building a reserve to create an endowment sounds like a sound investment of money. Any non-profit would work with that goal in mind, in fact any for-profit company would want a stockpile for a rainy day (or acquisitions), and not have to worry about posting profits every quarter (even governments try to do the same, and most US states require municipalities to have "rainy day funds" of a certain percentage of their annual budget or they can "chastised" or worse during an audit). I believe Jimbo has mentioned before that we probably don't want just one big giant Sam Walton/Bill Gates-sized donation to create such an endowment that would solve our problems because it could look like undue influence, but that we will probably need some medium-large donations to supplement the many small donations. While it is healthy for there to be watchdogs making sure that the WMF is acting in the best interest of Wikipedia, this IP certainly is not "helpful nor particularly reasonable" as Jimbo pointed out.Camelbinky (talk) 18:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course you are, and you could be absolutely sure the WMF is spending the donations in the best interest of Wikipedia, like hiring an employee described in this thread or writing the visual editor that doesn't work. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

WMF should have enough reserves to generously compensate anyone harmed due to false information in our medical articles or defamed in our BLPs, but an endowment? We could certainly raise enough to support the WMF off the interest forever - our goodwill is higher than just about any other internet service or nonprofit, today. But I think the WMF should fold if the day ever comes when our readership won't ante up the necessaries to keep the servers running.

The idea of the WMF being able to rumble on, regardless of how crap a job it is doing, or how crap Wikipedia has become, disgusts me. Really, the WMF does not have a privileged place in the hearts of our readers - Wikipedia does, today. The WMF does not deserve corporate immortality, it needs to be scarily, terminally and perpetually answerable to Wikipedia's readers. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

"...and the WMF would have looked much better, if it donated a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization." Well no, it wouldn't have. Money donated to the WMF was intended to support WMF initiatives, not anything else. To transfer that money to another charity supporting totally unrelated programs, however worthy, would open a can of worms. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Strange discussion. This all seems so removed from fiduciary duties of non-profits and what they can and cannot do with the money, as to be nonsensical. A nonprofit can collect money to sustain itself and accept bequests to sustain itself (yes indefinately) but it cannot itself generally make donations to "other worthy causes" with that money. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Can WMF help sweatshop laborers avoid predatory job brokers?

I was utterly disgusted by [1], describing how laborers to make iPhone cameras were first made to borrow and hand over huge (for them) sums of cash to broker after broker before they finally had a chance to be laid off from the Apple subcontractor and go home in debt.

Do you think it's conceivable to set up a jobs.wikimedia.org site to act as a clearinghouse for offers and tips about those sorts of positions, that would somehow work to help the companies looking for workers be able to bypass that whole crooked hierarchy? (I admit, I don't know how to do that, but I think someone does) I suppose some brokers would be inevitable, since the people lack Internet access and doubtless there are officials who need to be paid off, but is it possible for a crowdsourced resource to collapse things to one level of middlemen only? Wnt (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

You might find something of interest at User:Wavelength/About society/Ethical options.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Just curious, Wavelength, would your proposal focus on one country/language or be global in scope? I mean, this sounds like a completely new wiki. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Liz, it was Wnt who made a proposal, whereas I provided a link to a page with related information.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

This would have to be something completely new, since it would presumably contain substantial directory content, possibly including places for individuals and companies to describe themselves, and at least featuring some kind of organization tree of trustworthy intermediaries, if they exist. It's a difficult idea, I admit - what I'd like to see is a genuine way by which employers could meet up with labor without any greedy intermediaries gobbling up half a year's wages in the middle (as described in the link at top). Though in a sense it is a drastic departure from what WMF has done in the past, yet at the same time, we see many educational institutions advertising their outreach and ability to help their graduates actually get jobs. For WMF to match them, they would want to match that function also. Wnt (talk) 05:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a wiki is the best tool for this sort of directory, nor am I sure that the Wikimedia Foundation is the best organization to run it, if it is. At the same time, I think that raising awareness of this issue is of critical importance. I would suggest that the best way we might be able to help is to make sure that our articles on this and related topics are up to date and comprehensive and neutral.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

At least in the case of Apple and the iPhone they are already beginning to shift production, especially of the chip wafers, to the USA (mostly for fear of corporate espionage, but I'd bet sweat shops play into their decision). Everyone should be politically aware, write letters to Congressmen, Senators, state legislatures, governors, mayors, along with corporate heads and major stock holders; make them aware WE are aware. The US corporations may have their factories overseas but they ultimately are headquartered in the US and responsible to American law, American stockholders, and American consumers (the US remains the purchaser of last resort, giving us a huge economic voice). We cant, and shouldn't, try to pull all US company owned factories into the US, but we can make sure those that are overseas live up to common decency and standards. It all begins with not being quiet.Camelbinky (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree there's a lot of simple education to be done, which I need myself. It seems incomprehensible that people in Nepal are so bad off they'll put up with all that just to get a job in Malaysia. I look at these countries, and ... at least on average, people have land, they have houses and streets, they have animals and crops, why doesn't all that add up to money? How does a global economy manufacture such desperation out of a world where we have ample resources for everyone and we don't even need the labor we have? But I feel like there should be some way that educational wikis can help people directly also. Wnt (talk) 14:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a pretty sad irony that while the smart phone revolution allows for people to connect and organize and demand change, many of the people who make the components are being left out of that very revolution because the phones they make are too expensive for them to buy. From the article: "He earns less than $90 per month and owes about $300 in interest annually." The cheapest unlocked iPhone 4s that I see on apple's website right now is $450.

I wonder also whether or not a Kiva-style site where people can loan money to people trapped in these "indentured servitude" contracts at greatly reduced interest rates would be helpful. I know it might be very popular if managed well. If I'm reading this correctly, Dhong owes $1000 and this generates interest charges of $300 per year. If someone could loan him the $1000 at a more reasonable rate (even 10%) it'd made a substantial difference to his situation. Cutting his annual bill by $200 when he earns $90 per month would be a great relief.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Note that the interest rates charged by Kiva (organization) range around 30%, according to the article. The contributors who visit the site reduce the lender's risk, but don't receive any of that money. (I noticed though it does describe a "Kiva Zip" introduced in 2012 that seems different - those loans are direct,^[2] and I'm reading that the trustees aren't allowed to charge fees^[3]) Honesty is a scarce commodity, and at Wikipedia we should realize that, for all our problems, we have some ability to manufacture it. Wnt (talk) 15:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Much of that 30% are the fixed setup costs for the loan. So you could agree to pay the setup costs of 5 loans or whatever. Then the loan cost to recipient will reduce massively. John lilburne (talk) 16:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Does the article say that? If so you should update with your source, because I don't see so much as the word "setup" in all those statistics.

To a degree, I suppose we have a double standard about these things. Apple has said it has a policy against employees paying fees to get a job, and they're being vilified, even though they're the source of the jobs these people seem so desperate to get. If people donate to Kiva Zip, and it turns out that some of the trustees aren't actually recommending the best projects they hear about, but the people who pay the most for the opportunity, would we vilify them? My feeling though is that in either case, if we could find a way to have the donor and the recipient of the funds on the to and from lines of the same email, without any mandatory middlemen, things would be more efficient; and if a Wiki could make it possible for people to do that and at the same time have some confidence about what is really on the other end, it might be safer also. Wnt (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea who wrote the WP article and what their particular spin is. If I want information on this sort of thing I'll go to these reporters, who have been pretty good reporting on development issues for the last 40 years, and were reporting on microfinance back in the mid 1980s. John lilburne (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I found the following wikis, but they do not necessarily emphasize ethics.

• Academic Jobs Wiki
• Wiki-emploi (in French)
• Wikijob
• Mathematics Jobs Wiki - NotableMathWiki
• Psychology Job Wiki 2013-2014 - Psychology Academic Job Search
• Job Openings in Philosophy | Phylo
• Medical Wiki - Medical Jobs, Careers And Information
• Econjobmarket - BluWiki - 2013 Bluwiki
• Rumor Mill (Astrophysics jobs)
• Employment opportunities - sasCommunity
• Employment Assistance / Job Training - Los Angeles Homeless Resource Wiki

I also found the following wiki, about non-profit organizations.

• http://connectipedia.org (Connectipedia)

The following website is apparently not a wiki.

• Unskilled Jobs

—Wavelength (talk) 21:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I have admitted that this is beyond my expertise. The question: does a set of small, disjointed, niche sites with low readership mean that there is no way that a general wiki can become really popular, or does it provide evidence that a well-launched wiki by a reputable organization serving the whole world could really take off and become a major resource? Wnt (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I am more inclined toward believing the second interpretation.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The Foundation could get involved in anything that is within its tax-exempt purpose. If there's some way it could do that (which is questionable) it would be a fine thing to do and a source of positive publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The proposed web address (jobs.wikimedia.org) should not be confused with any of the following.

• Work with us - Wikimedia Foundation
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | LinkedIn
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | LinkedIn
• Jobs — Wikimedia blog
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs, Employment in San Francisco, CA | Indeed.com
• Wikimedia Foundation Job Listings - Stack Overflow Careers 2.0
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | Glassdoor
• Wikimedia Foundation Questions & Answers | Jobs & Career

The web address https://www.wikijobs.org might be better, if it is available.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I actually checked that one idea before I even started this, but it is under GoDaddy domain squatters as expected. (Of course there are lots of obvious variations, but anything you would name would be owned by someone else before you went to register it. You have to seize the name before you mention it, but first, you have to be serious, so in general it's best to ignore naming ideas unless it's already reservable (like jobs.wikimedia.org) Wnt (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Modern slavery is widespread and has been called "a well-kept secret". Statistics are available at the following website.

• Walk Free Foundation – Global Slavery Index 2013 | Explore the Index

—Wavelength (talk) 20:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The Polaris Project discusses the 2013 historical drama film 12 Years a Slave and modern slavery at the following page.

• 12 Years a Slave and the Reality of Modern Slavery | Polaris Project | Combating Human Trafficking and Modern-day Slavery

—Wavelength (talk) 17:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedians commended

Martin Poulter, at the University of Bristol, has commended Wikipedians for their contributions.

• Wikipedia contributors ‘should be proud’ | News | Times Higher Education (June 30, 2013)

—Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

That's User:MartinPoulter. William Avery (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, after reading the article its obvious they've never edited. Its like eating sausage...it can be delicious as long as you don't ask many questions about the process, once you are familiar with how its made though....disgusting. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

And yet, you keep coming back for more. Resolute 02:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty much done with this place but I may still stick my head in every once in a while. I'm not allowed to work on stuff I want to work on (that need the help) so there's no point in staying. If the community can't trust me at this point they never will. Its especially disappointing since there are so many abusive admins with the tools already. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Are Featured Articles permanent sacred cows?

I came across a page via RfC and have been watching for a while: new edits are routinely reversed with little explanation, while discussion, on the talk page, is dismissive and regularly becomes abusive. The only explanation given is that this was once a 'Featured Article' therefore info that doesn't have "high quality" reputable sources (not just WP:RS but 'high quality)' will be deleted - or, as one put it 'go write a book, then we'll quote it'. At what point is keeping Wikipedia FA status allowed to prevent an article from being encyclopedic? AnonNep (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Is this about Guy Fawkes Night? In any case, sourcing policies apply to all articles, but it makes sense to be particularly alert to them in articles that are advertised as being of the highest possible quality. Looie496 (talk) 18:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And, I'd agree, in general, but I tried suggesting a FAQ, as per pages where regular questions have been settled by consensus, but there's no clear consensus in the archives (not that the loudest, regular voices, responded anyway). And, more lately, the replies to any question (because, to some, its a FA & unquestionable) have got to the 'fuck off' stage. Its a car crash in slow motion because the badge of 'FA status' rules over everything else. I didn't think Wikipedia was designed that way. Is this a glitch in the system or a policy flaw? AnonNep (talk) 18:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This isn't any kind of policy. I notice a couple of exasperating editors over there in that discussion. That's not to say that it isn't good to keep a close eye on changes to featured articles, but the scrutiny is in making sure that sources aren't misrepresented or below the general standard, not that they meet some nonexistent "higher" standard. I should note that on a few occasions I've waded into articles on the very day they were featured and fixed some fairly serious problems - the status is by no means equal to perfection. There are some that very few people care about and some that a lot of people care about, and I don't know which is worse. :) Wnt (talk) 19:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

That issue of should a Featured Article freeze like a museum piece until it shrivels into irrelevancy still bugs me. But thank you, at least I'm not the only one who cares, or sees exasperating behaviour! :) AnonNep (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You are not acknowledging how exasperating it is for content builders who create and maintain featured articles because (particularly for popular topics such as Guy Fawkes Night) there is a never-ending stream of new editors who want to make some adjustment, with the vast majority of proposals being misguided, and each requiring a page of explanation. If featured articles were like a community noticeboard where anyone could paste another note over the top, the articles would quickly turn into incoherent junk yards. Johnuniq (talk) 08:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Articles shouldn't be bulletin boards where everyone posts another note over the top - they should be boards where everyone can always find more space around the edges. They should continually be growing and dividing. Wikipedia is not 1% complete, and indeed this article is not 1% complete when you count all the specialized subtopics it should cover. When someone knows by living in a place that the experience of a day is different than it says, and goes out and finds a source that agrees, it's a good idea to let him add that data, and when the article gets big enough, you look for some natural line of cleavage, like Pope Day, and branch off content in WP:Summary style. Wnt (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

That's an excellect summation of the way I thought content developed here. But, sadly, isn't allowed to, in some quiet (or 'turn a blind eye') corners. AnonNep (talk) 16:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The similarity between a resume′ writer and a paid to edit editor

Jimbo. Let's assume I wanted to hire someone to write a resume′. I would want someone who is an experienced wordsmith, adept at the subtleties of manipulating words. Someone who is able to hide the truthful embarrassing facts of my frailties and flaws. Someone who can make the sun shine during a rainstorm. I would want my resume′ to highlight only the good points of my life and to barely, if at all, mention the low points. If my terrible grades as a freshman are mentioned, they might be explained as Freshman Adjustment. The sordid event and arrest resulting from the Sorority Incident could be easily passed off as a "childish prank". Since my lawyer promised that the record was expunged, there is no real need to even mention the event. The fact that I attended maybe 10% of my classes is slander and anyway, how is that pertinent, and who is gonna prove it!. I got my degree did I not. What I want, what I am paying the resume′ writer to do, is to make me look like a $10000 tuxedo. The fact that I usually run around in sandals and shorts is unimportant. He gets paid to make me look good, even if I'm a shlub. He is paid to hide my blemishes, my warts, my scars. His job is to get me THE job. Not to worry about following the Rules. And, I'm certainly not paying him to worry about the reader of the resume′. The reader is completely unimportant except for how the reader can be manipulated by my resume′ writer. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

That's one of the best descriptions of paid editing I've ever seen. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It also sounds a lot like WP:BLP... Wnt (talk) 14:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It was also written by someone reprimanded today for a blatant copyright violation, who issued a flippant response when asked to remove the copyvio. Not exactly someone to be lecturing us on ethics. Little surprise that he takes such a dim view of the ethical accountability of someone who would like a resume written, and of the ethics of someone paid to do so. Little surprise that Wales would instantly agree with such a dim and unfair viewpoint. - 2001:558:1400:10:C4BC:BB5A:F1CC:8EDE (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

1) It wasn't blatant. It was innocent.

2) I wasn't asked to remove it. It was more a "remove it or else" demand.

3) I answered in the manner that the "reprimand" was given. A more collaborative request would have achieved a more collaborative response. ```Buster Seven Talk 17:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You know, I really don't understand why the paid editing peanut gallery, both the long-established apologists for the practice and their non-logged-in clones - both of whom resort to remarkably similar personal attacks and fallacious arguments - have their knickers in a twist over this discussion. It's plain that they're going to win. It's plain that nothing is going to be done. But when you're making bucks off Wikipedia, cynically exploiting the vulnerabilities of this website and its porous rules and joke-like COI policy, any threat to the gravy train seems to be met with shrill hostility. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No, Coretheapple, they've already lost, they just don't realize it yet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No kidding? Well, they're not the only ones. Coretheapple (talk) 17:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid advocates have already lost, and everyone realises it. That behaviour has been banned for a decade. They realise it, which is why they operate in secret, as does everybody else, which is why they end up getting banned when they're discovered. But this is old news. Paid editors are probably not in any trouble, given the general opposition to cracking down on academics, librarians, and other non-advocate paid editors. (Or perhaps I just don't realise that my ban is coming for being paid to do public outreach?) WilyD 09:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Advocacy of all kinds is prohibited. We're talking about paid editing - taking cash for edits, whether they seem neutral or not. As you correctly point out, they are probably not in any trouble. This is why I don't understand Jimbo Wales' comment that "they have already lost." Perhaps he would be kind enough to elaborate. Coretheapple (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The example that started this thread was of a paid advocate, of course, not a generic paid editor. Replace the example with a math professor trying to make Hermite polynomials more accessible to the layperson, and see how much support there really is for banning paid editors who aren't advocates. It's much smaller. WilyD 16:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

And a math prof who is editing Wikipedia isn't an advocate (for more accessible math)? I think the wikitalibans who advocate in this area all day long have formed their own jargon and don't even recognize anymore that their narrow use of words isn't what most other editors find reprehensible, which usually is PR for companies, but sometimes for individuals as well. Someone not using his real name (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I think most people are capable of understanding the difference between a math professor and a corporate PR department. I think we could learn a lot from the ways in which reputable publishers have addressed conflicts of interest and handled such distinctions. It's like we're trying to reinvent the wheel here. MastCell ^Talk 17:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Understand the difference? Yes. Agree on the significance? Maybe. Discuss things on Wikipedia in a way that makes the difference clear? Not at all. A lot of the dispute seems to arise from the fact that people aren't drawing a distinction in what they say/write, and assuming everyone understands/means what they mean, when that's not the case. But paid advocates are already banned when they're discovered. Who is Coretheapple et al. looking to ban, if not math professors et al.? WilyD 17:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on now. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have yet to encounter a "math professor" innocently editing an article and hounded to suicide. But I have seen dozens of PR men and corporate reps (400 counted in that off-wiki website), and specifically was alerted to this argument by PR staffers dominating two articles on multinational companies. This "math profs" thing is just a ridiculous straw man. Coretheapple (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @WilyD: I don't think paid advocates are banned. User:Arturo at BP isn't banned; quite the opposite, people have gone out of their way to shower him with barnstars of integrity. Few or none of the accounts affiliated with the Transcendental Meditation movement are banned. There's some pretty low-hanging fruit we can talk about before we get into the math professors. MastCell ^Talk 18:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid advocates have "already lost, they just don't realize it yet." I believe you Jimmy, please let all of us non-paid editors know what we can do to support this outcome. How long do you think it is going to take? All the best, Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The reason he isn't banned is because he follows the behaviour standard Jimbo has advocated: [4]. Basically - he ain't an editor. Which makes it impossible for him to be a paid editor. Which brings us back to the same point: Wiki-PR, et al. got banned because they were editing articles as paid advocates. They did so in secret because they knew the practice was already banned. So who else is Coretheapple et al. looking to ban? He denies that it's math professors, librarians, and so on, but can't give any examples of who it is. I can only conclude that it is math profs et al., based on what's being written (here, and at the multitude of proposed policies). WilyD 09:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to echo that. Those of us, the distinct minority of people in this discussion, who are opposed to paid editing are of course encouraged by the support of the founder, but more concrete action would of course be welcome. Coretheapple (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I fear I may sound rude here, Coretheapple, but do you do a lot of editing of the encyclopedia? Which parts of your editing of the encyclopedia (which I'm very pleased you do for free, just like I do) are you most proud of? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Not at all. I'm proudest of my effort to fight the scourge of paid editing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Right, let me put that more gently. Which encyclopedia article have you improved the most? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Coretheapple (talk · contribs), I would encourage you not to answer that, and Demiurge1000 (talk · contribs) I would encourage you retract your question. No good can come from such contests of "who is more valuable" among volunteers (see also WP:CHOICE). I think the best thing we can all do is focus on the issue at hand. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and I think that in general this conversation has deteriorated, and has disconnected from reality, to the point that it has become pointless. This is Jimbo's page. Unless there are some other points that he thinks need to be covered that haven't already, I'd suggest that he put a moratorium on further discussion of this subject. If the Foundation wants to act, if paid editors have "already lost," then let's see that happen. Otherwise let's move on. Clearly a consensus to derail the gravy train is structurally impossible, as there are already a multitude of paid editors out there who will oppose any restrictions on paid editing. Wikipedia is so permeated with paid editors, paid editing is such a part of the culture of Wikipedia that either it is accepted, with all that flows from it in terms of demoralization and undermining of Wikipedia's integrity and reputation, or the Foundation has to ban it. Coretheapple (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Breathlessly awaiting more details.... petrarchan47tc 21:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

To those of us who are concerned by paid editing and conflicts of interest, recent history here is extremely depressing. To take two high-profile examples, our coverage of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill was substantially drafted by BP's public-relations department. And our coverage of the purported medical benefits of Transcendental Meditation is dominated by employees and affiliates of the TM movement. Neither of those scenarios developed stealthily—the former was ratified by the community, and the latter by ArbCom. We seem to feel no obligation to disclose these massive conflicts of interest to the unsuspecting reader, nor do we have any mechanism of disclosure even if we had the will. I can understand the sense of incredulity expressed above in response to the idea that paid editing has "lost", because all of the evidence to which I have access suggests the opposite. MastCell ^Talk 22:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Tiny point: it was actually the entire BP article that was substantially drafted by the BP PR department (40%).petrarchan47tc 03:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

But one of the happiest side effects of participating in the discussion of the subject is all the flattering attention my editing record has received, all the scrutiny, all the helpful advice (such as "shut up") that I've received from the Paid Editing Lobby, both the experienced editors and the ones that say they are experienced but won't log on (but say that if they did log on we'd be blown away by their contributions). Just to be 1000% clear, I was not referring to Demiurge1000's question aboveCoretheapple (talk) 22:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Late to the party, but the copyright violation, mentioned way up above, contains a revealing section (quoted here, ahem, in part, as per fair use under the copyright act): "Of course, we all know what this means -- the anonymous competitors and critics of a company are free to edit in defamatory content about their target, all to their heart's content. However, the subject of the article is forbidden to engage directly and have the right of response within the content battle." Compelling argument for a anti 'Puff & Snark' policy that focuses on (edit, revert & delete of) content not (block and ban) of users (and which could still, quite reasonably, restrict the directly concerned from, well, direct edits). AnonNep (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

That is almost as absurd a straw man as "persecuted math profs" straw man. The reality is puff and text with negative inferences omitted, not defamation-hungry anti-corporate zealots running amok while harassisng decent PR people. In the BP article that several people have mentioned (I haven't, you'll notice), a PR person dominated the talk page and was repeatedly given back-slaps for his courtesy and good manners, while persons seeking to clean up after him were greeted with open hostility. That only petered out after the page received widespread publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The PR person not only dominated the BP talk page but was a frequent visitor to the talk pages of BP-supportive editors with suggested changes. These changes would then almost immediately attempted (within 5 minutes) to be implemented. Had concerned editors, such as Coretheapple, not been safeguarding the BP article these change would have been in place without any concern for consensus or vetting of the information or discussion by fellow collaborators. and our reader would never have known that BP was editing the article. ```Buster Seven Talk 19:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC).

Sorry. Dare not reply. Just got bitch-slapped in the edit summary of a section removal by the talk page user. 'Rules' are really odd here, and I deal with enough abuse offline not to need it. Back to content editing. AnonNep (talk) 20:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

A personal attack is not needed
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Indeed, we wouldn't want anyone to think that you're running scared of my questions about your contribution to the encyclopedia. You do know we're trying to build an encyclopedia, right? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:56, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Sheesh. If it will keep you from sidetracking the discussion, then please know that I share Coretheapple's concerns, and I've made plenty of contributions to the project over the years. Really, this is the most dispiriting thing: every time this topic is raised, there's a concerted effort to attack or discredit the messenger instead of dealing with the actual substance of the concern. Running scared indeed. MastCell Talk 01:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC) I, like some others, like to know who we're talking to. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2013 (UTC) So who are you? Eric Corbett 02:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Not a person who suddenly pops up from no-where with a hatred for particular sets of editors and no backstory ... and a firm belief that paid editors have "won" which rather reminds one of a certain person's talking ... and nothing to bring to the encyclopedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC) That's not really an answer though, as your own backstory is nothing to shout about. So who are you? Eric Corbett 02:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC) You may think what you like, but your credibility is rather limited these days. I read this recently, which said, inter alia, "the committee released a statement linking controversial user Malleus Fatuorum's sock puppet account, George Ponderevo, to his main account". Ring any bells? Certainly an interesting backstory. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Demiurge1000 has his bluff called and is speechless, beyond personal attacks. Just to be sure I understand what Demiurge was saying (a propo of nothing), he supports paid editing (or was he saying that he's a paid editor), and says that he's made a bunch of edits -38% of them in article space. So therefore Coreapple, who has made fewer edits, must be wrong on paid editing (did I miss some logic here?) If Demiurge is boasting about his contributions to Wikipedia, then I'd recommend he check MastCell's and Eric Corbett's edits. I'll add my own contributions here, though they may be more modest. But we've never decided important questions on Wikipedia by comparing the length of our "contributions". So I'll add one question to Eric's 1) Demiurge - what is your point? as well as 2) Demiurge, who are you? Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Personal attacks? I think that's what your comment boils down to. It really puzzles me that you and one or two others are so rabid on the topic of paid editing, and (apparently) believe all other editors are involved in paid editing, to the extent you undermine your own credibility to such a degree. Some of us have been editing Wikipedia for nothing for years, and intend to continue doing so. Lies and slurs won't stop us. Ask Eric if he thinks paid advocacy should be banned - if he thinks anyone being paid to edit or with a conflict of interest should not touch mainspace at all. I think that. Maybe you should ask him, before you jump in. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC) 1) Demiurge - what is your point? 2) Demiurge, who are you? Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC) 1) If you're not able to understand it, I doubt I can help you much now. 2) Who are you? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:11, 15 November 2013 (UTC) The question is who are you? Eric Corbett 03:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Edits by Vice-Chairman of Wikimedia Norway

[Note: Because the anonymous ip seems constitutionally incapable of asking questions in a civil manner (having tried twice and failed miserably) I am going to write the legitimate questions and answers myself, as an illustration of how to do it.)

Hi Jimbo! In my ongoing exploration of the question of conflict of interest edits in Wikipedia, I found some that I thought worthy of calling to your attention, given your strong position on the issue.

What do you think of these edits to the article about Telenor, from June 2013? Of course we know that not every employee of every corporation is going to be familiar with your "Bright Line Rule" that forbids paid advocates from ever directly modifying a Wikipedia article about their own employer or client. However, shouldn't we expect someone who self-identifies as vice chairman of Wikimedia Norway and as Vice President of Telenor Group to be a little more knowledgeable about best practices at Wikipedia? He also created the Wikipedia article Uninor, which is an India-based joint venture of Telenor Group. It seems particularly problematic and potentially embarrassing since the Wikimedia Foundation has formed an alliance with Telenor to bring Wikipedia free to people in the developing world? This edit also strikes me as problematic since it is an article about a competitor of his employer, in a section about a "dispute" between his company and the competitor. I'd love to hear your comments on this matter. - An anonymous user, you can call me "Greg" if you want a nickname for me.

Thanks for calling this to my attention. The creation of the Uninor article seems to have happened in 2009, well before my formulation and promotion of the best practice of "bright line rule", so I think we can forgive that. But the other more recent edits are indeed highly problematic from the perspective of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. I will immediately send an email expressing my concerns and inviting him to come here and explain, and I will urge him to pledge not to do anything like this again.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

It is well known that Erlend Bjørtvedt works for Telenor and he has also been a very active contributor to Wikipedia for some years. If there is a problem regarding the above article and business articles in general, it is that they are not well covered. Seems much more attractive to write about movie stars, soccer teams & players than issues that actually are central to our lives. If more contributors did so, then there simply would be less need for contributions from people that work at such companies. I have done so myself from my own workplace, and probably hundreds of others only within the Wikipedia version in Bokmål/Riksmål. If we had not made the contributions, useful articles would in most cases be lacking. Ulflarsen (talk) 21:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I have noted the comments and questions here about editing an article over a company for which I am employed. The Uninor article was created way back before these questions really came to the table for discussion. As for the editing on Telenor, from what I can see in the links above, these have been about correcting purely factual things like financial numbers or ownership in companies. I am serious about following community rules and also golden rules, but I must admit I have difficulties in seeing it as problematic that a Telenor employee corrects a purely factual ownership figure, in this instance when a company moves from for example 43% to 51% ownership in a subsidy, or when a company's gross revenue increases from 10 bn dollars to 11 billion dollars, etc. I am aware of this more recent bright line rule, but I will need someone to inform and explain to me if it is not proper to any of our employees to do such purely factual corrections. I am not a frequent contributor to English Wikipedia, and we practice more liberal rules at our smaller language versions where it is rather the rule than the exception that one can edit facts about your own organization, institution or company. But still, if I as an employee of a company is not allowed to do even the most factual and neutral corrections, like fixing an errenous financial number, than please inform me of what applies and where to find those rules. Kind regards, Bjoertvedt (talk) 22:57, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Best practice is to suggest edits on the talk page with full disclosure of your conflict of interest, and then to escalate if you don't get a response. The main problem with even very neutral and boring factual edits is that they can give rise to an appearance of conflict of interest, and of course bad actors will always claim that their edits are simply neutral and boring factual edits. It's best to avoid the question altogether, particularly when in a position of some responsibility at a chapter!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok! Best regards, Bjoertvedt (talk) 23:09, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Bjørtvedt says that the Uninor article was created "way back before these questions really came to the table for discussion". I beg to differ. The Uninor article was created in November 2009. In June 2009, Jimmy Wales was quoted in the media as saying, "the idea that we should ever accept paid advocates directly editing Wikipedia is not ever going to be ok. Consider this to be policy as of right now." How much more on the table for discussion could it be than that? Regardless of that timeline, surely since Bjørtvedt became a director of Wikimedia Norway in 2010, he should have been exposed to the extensive media coverage of the Bell Pottinger incidents of 2011, along with the UK Parliament and Gibraltarpedia scandals of 2012. Yet still, Bjørtvedt went ahead and continued to edit Wikipedia where he had a conflict of interest, deep into 2013, and even plugging in an external link (in 2012) to his company's website on an article about (frankly) a very non-notable Telenor Culture Award of which you can barely find three mentions (that aren't press releases) in all of Google News archives. Regardless of when it was authored, the real problem is Bjørtvedt's content. He describes it as "factual and neutral corrections"; but, if that is the case, why do we get results like this from Bjørtvedt's keyboard:

• The operational model is low-cost with a gradual network-build up, infrastructure sharing, GSM equipment at competitive cost, full-scale IT-outsourcing and a long term cost and capex efficiency.

That's not encyclopedia content, it's a corporate investor relations statement to shareholders. And he didn't even attempt to source it. There have been numerous advocates on this page over the past week or so (yes, I have been reading) who cry out in anguish about paid advocacy editing on Wikipedia. Well, now that a Wikimedia chapter insider is caught clearly having done it, where is the wailing and gnashing of teeth? Other than Jimbo's short reprimand, nobody else seems to care that Bjørtvedt has shaped his company's image on Wikipedia and turned a blind eye to his fellow (obvious) corporate editors like User:Telenor Info, User:Uninor (yes, same user name as the company itself), or single-purpose IPs owned by Telenor, such as User:88.89.28.34. With such a brazen disregard for years-old guidelines against COI editing, why am I not surprised that Bjørtvedt would take such a dismissive tone when called on the mat about it. This cheapens Wikipedia's reputation, and if we're going to ever get a handle on paid advocacy editors, we should be starting with those who are also trustees of Wikimedia charities that are taking money from the unsuspecting public who have no idea that those very trustees on Wikipedia are padding the image of the company at the top of their paychecks. -- Stylecustom (talk) 00:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the evident facts matter much here, the spin is far more important. Eric Corbett 01:04, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

He did a foolish thing. Hopefully he has learned. Note that working for a company and admiring it, is not the same as being paid to do PR for that company, though. I'm very passionate about the firm I work for - actually I typically go nowhere near any content related to it, but I did correct some errors in the articles on my previous firm. Best practice: if you're going to edit articles where you have a potential conflict of interest, be open about it, even if you edit the article directly you should drop a note on the talk page saying why you made that edit rather than leaving it to someone else (for example, uncontroversial facts, citing the latest annual returns or whatever). Wikipedians are only human, after all. Most important thing: if you do make an edit that in hindsight you probably should not have made, nobody died, put your hands up and accept the judgment of the community. That way lies respect and transparency. Digging in causes drama and never makes anyone look good. Guy (Help!) 12:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

An anonymous user who apparently goes by "Greg" from time to time asked me to ask you to breakfast (with him) on Tuesday, since you'll be in town. --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 00:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

At Greggs? ;-) 88.104.4.74 (talk) 10:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Example of spin

Hi Jimbo, hope you are well, and so forth.

One of my major concerns about Wikipedia is, the way it can 'spin' any old BLP. I think you care about that too and please, don't worry - I'm not "on a mission" here;

<Frankly, I don't give a toss about the specific subject matter>

Andrew_Gilligan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This guy is an English journalist - political, commentary stuff. But, he did get involved in the Leveson Inquiry stuff - ie, they asked for his input, and he gave it.

Why is this relevant to Wikipedia?

Because for years, people have read that "Andrew Gilligan is a journalist for the BBC, and was the reporter involved in the story of weapons expert David Kelly" [5].

I know you understand the importance of neutrality in BLP articles - if Wikipedia says someone is 'known' for an event for years, that can have a huge impact on their career.

Sorry to bother you with 'just one BLP'. but... well. yeah. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 22:44, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Is this discussion going to be different from the one ongoing on ANI? Why not just link to it? ES&L 22:58, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Can you link to it? Or someone? It does seem wiser to point interested readers here to important discussions elsewhere. This is a good place to raise such question, as this is a good place to discuss broader philosophical issues. But of course any actual action needs to go through the appropriate channels, which is generally not here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

It's right here ES&L 23:09, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for not linking; the discussion is in Talk:Andrew_Gilligan#Introduction_and_Leveson. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 09:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm really not trying to push for one specific article, but my point here was broader, using it as an example.

Fact is, you can google "andrew gilligan" "best known" and find dozens of websites saying that he is "best known for a 2003 report on BBC Radio 4's The Today Programme" (and small variations) - which is almost copy-paste from the Wikipedia article, and was almost certainly copied from it, or from another copy of it.

If you search 'Google News', it's a very different story; he is introduced as e.g. "the journalist who became the London mayor's cycling commissioner in January", "senior reporter at the Daily and Sunday Telegraph", or similar.

The Leveson inquiry was one small part of his career - it probably does deserve a mention in the body, but I don't think it should be prominently in the lead section; after all, we wouldn't start the Britney Spears article with "...an American singer known for shaving off all her hair".

We know that, in reality, a great many sources get their 'facts' from Wikipedia - that means, if we boldly declare in the start of a BLP that someone is known for one specific thing, it can have a real-life impact - almost a self-fulfilling claim, because they then become "that person known for x". 88.104.4.74 (talk) 10:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

---

Hello again,

Mr Wales, I've used you as an example in a shortish rant about my BLP concerns here.

I know you're a very busy chap, but I hope you might have the time to look at that, and put in your ha-pence worth.

What Wikipedia says about living people, especially in the leader section of articles, has very 'real world' consequences - as I am sure you are aware.

If Wikipedia says "Gilligan is best-known for xxx scandal", then other websites assume we've done our appropriate checks, and he *becomes* "that guy known for xxx".

Again I emphasize, I'm not posting here because of that specific case - it just serves as an example.

I hope Wikipedia will take extra-super-special care about leaders in BLPs. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 18:49, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikisource

If you would have any sort of ideas yourself regarding maybe some things which could be done at Wikisource, please feel free to mention them at wikisource:Wikisource:Scriptorium#Goals for 2014. John Carter (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

How have commercial editors "already lost"?

User:Coretheapple wrote above that commercial editors and their entourage are winning. User:Jimbo Wales replied that they have already lost. Coretheapple, Jimbo, and I are all in agreement that paid advocacy editing (which should perhaps more concisely be called commercial editing) should not be tolerated, and is a threat to Wikipedia. However, I have to ask how the commercial editors are losing or have lost. Several proposals for new policies or guidelines have failed to gain consensus for various reasons. Is the Wikimedia Foundation prepared to act due to the inability of the English Wikipedia community to act, or is Jimbo merely making a statement, when Coretheapple appears to be seeing the same situation as I am seeing (inability to obtain community consensus)? How have the commercial editors lost? Is there good news for opponents of commercial editing in the near future? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I took it as whistling in the dark and made a mental note never to take gambling advice from Jimmy Wales. We'll see, won't we? Carrite (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

We'll see. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll take WilyD's correction and expand it:

• paid advocates have lost,
• paid editors have not lost,
• paid editors who strictly follow wikipedia content guidelines and add strictly encyclopedic content and never write apologetic marketing-speak filler have not lost and they are not really supposed to lose.

--Enric Naval (talk) 11:09, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

What Enric said. Consensus right now, as I read it, is that if you declare any commercial interest and play a straight bat, you'll probably be OK. And if you don't, you risk a major shitstorm which will make your company look bad. Advertising to write articles for pay is generally accepted as wrong and inconsistent with the goals of the project. Those who advocate unfettered paid editing lost the argument, it's entirely about how we manage the inevitable fact of people with a vested financial or emotional interest in the content. Which is, actually, how it has always been, as any follower of articles on pseudoscience or creationism will be able to attest. Guy (Help!) 12:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the point of this discussion. If Jimbo wants to clarify his comment, he is free to do so. Coretheapple (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I was asking Jimbo. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The board is preparing a statement. The numbers are weak for commercial editors, and the arguments they have made are not carrying the day with the community. There has been a need for refined understanding, and that refined understanding is now spread through the community quite widely. No one supports paid advocacy editing other than a tiny and noisy minority. The writing is on the wall.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Removals

User:Haldraper has three times removed reliably sourced content.

• [6]
• [7]
• [8]

He also misrpresents the consensus on the talk page. which was to remove it from the first sentence, not from the entire introduction. I left a message on his talk page but he did not reply. Whats the best way forward? Pass a Method talk 11:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)