User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Wikimedia Foundation and paid editing

Hello Jimbo, I wanted to get your thoughts as a Wikimedia Foundation Trustee on the scandal surrounding the WMF, Stanton Foundation and Belfer Center.

In February you were asked:[1]

Jimbo, we know and support your firm stance against paid advocacy editors -- they have no welcome here at Wikipedia. What if a paid advocacy editor's company presented you a substantial financial donation to the Wikimedia Foundation? Would you accept that donation on behalf of the Foundation, or would you tear it up in their face?

To which you responded:

I think we should accept their donation and ban them from editing. And then spend their money on a full-time employee to identify and block undisclosed paid advocacy editing accounts.

Is this view widely held amongst the Board of Trustees, and within the WMF itself? In the event it is just your own personal opinion, perhaps you could give this opinion some teeth by using your discretionary powers to ban the paid editor involved in the WMF-Stanton-Belfer threesome, because the Arbitration Committee have apparently refused to act on the matter.

It might be of interest to you that the same donor has now granted $1.39 million to the Wiki Education Foundation, a spin-off from the WMF and which is going to be staff by current WMF employees.[2] It really seems that your views on paid editing are totally ignored within the WMF, and this is not good, is it? 124.120.148.245 (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

My views on paid advocacy editing are very firmly supported by the board and the Foundation staff. You're being completely disingenuous here by conflating two issues. To my knowledge there is no suggestion that the Stanton/Belfer/WMF arrangement involved advocacy editing in any way - the problem here is a different one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The Daily Dot says that the hired editor "allegedly gave favorable treatment [to] the center's scholars, and contributed little else of value to the encyclopedia." Jimmy, are you saying that this allegation is false; or are you saying that while Sandole gave favorable treatment to the Belfer Center's scholars, that this doesn't constitute "advocacy editing in any way"? - 2001:558:1400:10:D84D:D5FC:284A:8D10 (talk) 15:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

This is the first I've heard of that allegation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:42, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo, how many times have you said that you're proud of how open and transparent the Wikimedia Foundation is? Do you believe that the following edits result in content that is more open and transparent?

• "not convinced of it's (sic) relevance"
• "Allow only administrators (indefinite)"
• "There are other web sites for that"

It certainly seems that even when the Wikimedia Foundation is caught having made a huge mistake that they even admit to, if the details start hitting a little too close to home (or the pocketbook), openness and transparency quickly take a back seat (with a dark hood over each of their heads). - 2601:B:BB80:E0:60C4:D49B:2C63:8D39 (talk) 03:16, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

IP, I am an administrator on the Outreach wiki and if you believe that there is a problem with what's happening with that page you can contact me on my Outreach talk page. --Pine^✉ 08:22, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

OpenSSL Bug

Since this was brought up recently on this page, I want to mention that:

• If you would like to test a web site for SSL security (in general) of a website, use this URL:

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html

• If you would like to test whether your specific browser is secure (in general in terms of SSL), use this URL:

https://www.howsmyssl.com/

• If you would like to test whether your specific browser is secure in testing whether an SSL certificate has been revoked, use this URL:

https://revoked.grc.com/

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:51, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Could Wikipedia please switch to an EDH cipher suite with forward secrecy instead of what it's using now, that allows old recorded sessions to be decrypted if the server key is compromised? That would have prevented a lot of possible user password exposure. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 23:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

comments after non-consensus 4-day block

"Anything you say can and will be held against you" department. The harassment and hectoring continue on my talkpage and on various RM closees that were off-vector for other closes by people with less of an axe to grind. The following post of a reply of mine at User talk:Skookum1#Your block summarizes what I have encountered, and is a clear demonstration that "all is not well" in Wikipedia-land:

• • Re systemic bias (including the growing bias against more voluble writers like myself, over those who have latter-day attention spans), in looking over one of the Squamish CFDs or RMs I found a link to WP:EXR posted in support of me (from Moxy maybe?) which had these interesting tidbits, showing I am not alone in my views on the use of "consensus" to impose a tyranny of supposed wikiquette that in fact has very little to do with good content or proper use of the guidelines.

• RE "cumulatively dysfunctional system":
  • "..... Tribes of influential (= have the most free time on their hands) admins and editors have decided that WP policies say something other than what they actually say...."
  • "People who follow strict and standardized interpretations of policies threaten that and must be stalked and rebuffed."
  • " words can be like flames and real lives can and sometimes really are ruined or at least permanently altered; people who fill up talk pages with nonsense, who see the truth of contrary arguments yet refuse from selfishness to acknowledge them; who endlessly Wikilawyer the most obvious points, and enforce not the policies but the policies as they privately interpret them through the grid of their own private agendas."

• re "Peer review system in Wikipedia":
  • "The main issue never really mentioned for obvious reasons is that dispute resolution on wiki happens on a personal rather than substantive/professional level. Just look at the any resolution board or such, and observe that ~100% of decisions are made on the basis of trite rule violations or other politics by so and so and almost never on the veracity of the content itself. "
  • "This is result of the fact that most admins (or any editor with social power) simply don't have the background to grasp that there's such a thing as "objective reality", and are evidently more comfortable with people drama than arguing or otherwise working with facts. There's no fix for this sort of system incompetence, and as a whole wiki just falls back on the coincidental premise that technical topics are not contentious enough for the incompetent to get involved."

It appears I am not alone in my views on what is wrong here, and my observations about the tactics in discussions of attacking the proponent instead of addressing issues raised are not unique.

---

There are vast areas of Wikipedia that have been neglected, e.g. improving English on Asian, South American, African and European articles. I am dewatchlisting thousands of items to avoid having to see the ongoing quibbling that has become the norm, vs substantive contributions, and has become a tiresome bore, in which I am always made the target and guidelines and issues raised are shoved aside by wiki-lawyering and personal putdowns and amateur psychiatry.Skookum1 (talk) 05:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Is there anything whatsoever in your behavior that draws criticism in your direction? Or are you entirely blameless? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

that i find it needful to discuss issues at length in reply to pat, simplistic objections winds up being "TLDR" - which should not be used about discussions but only about articles and is unCIVIL as a putdown, is really the core issue here; that I respond sharply to insults and derisions and erratic/misleading quibbles and non sequitur "apples and oranges" comparisons and have been told, sternly, to not respond to rank NPAs made against me that go unpunished and unaddressed such as this item is becoming boring and "old". Being not-given to point-form and short-paragraph formats favoured by teh post-television generation's biases has been treated as personally offensive by my blocker and others, but it is clear from the guidelines that they point to that their comprehension/reading issues apply to those as well, as they consistently mis-cite them and IMO probably find the articles they are busy passing retitling judgements also "TLDR". That I stand up for myself draws even more heat.......talking back to my supposed betters is not allowed. I have particular examples I could point to here, but I'm tired of the harrassment that continues on this page in response to ANYTHING I say and today have better things to do....like go to the beach.Skookum1 (talk) 05:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

--- Note also this reply to XOttawahitech, with his comment first:

It is my understanding that editors are free to edit their own wikispaces however it suits them. I have been getting into trouble about this for years now, because some editors try to edit my space claiming they are trying to help me(?) and I am still having trouble when I reject their good-will even when I use all the tact (I probably need lessons in that area) I can muster.

• • Yes, they're trying to "help" me something like a cult indoctrination, continuing to scold and criticize and demanding I conform to what THEY see as correct behaviour and telling me to shut up when I am confronted by incorrect behaviour. Being lectured by people who have abused me with a hammer and told to play nice etc....I am free to edit my own wikispace, yes, but even here I have been attacked for my own words; I have to teach in a few moments, I will return later with a few comments on the links used to equivocate the non-consensus block as if it were not punishment; which it was [as a certain convo off-ANI said very blatantly; that link I will dig out later].Skookum1 (talk) 05:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

---

It is only because there are hundreds of articles with bad English in need of correcting, and because there are still articles needed in the areas of my much-derided regional expertise in need of creation and improvement, that I am staying at all. Ongoing personal harrassment from people who lack the ability to critically think about themselves and what they are doing, and who don't even know what is in the guidelines they hurl at me like weapons, will no doubt continue, but I will endeavour to ignore it in future. I had high hopes that Wikipedia would be "the document of the age" but now the wikiquette and the self-referential biases of the adminship have now overtaken content as the "project's" primary activity and ..... 'nuff said, this is just an update, and observations that I am not alone in being harassed as I have been; with patronizing comments about "portraying myself as a victim" from those who ARE victimizing me, or claiming I am victimizing others, is just bully-talk that is familiar to anyone who knows what bullying is about. Too many people with small minds and narrow views have adminships, likewise those who apparently wanted and use adminship as bully-club with no real activities helpful to contribution or article writing; rather the opposite and in extremis.

Because my comments here were made an issue at the ANI, and will probably be trotted out as further examples to justify yet another, longer, block - not supported by all, but only by the cadre who have seen fit to take unilateral action without consensus already, I will leave off for now; but I not alone in my discontent and resentment against the b.s. that has been hurled at me, and no doubt I will not be the last.Skookum1 (talk) 05:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I am approaching my 5th anniversary as an editor here, and I work largely on mentoring and assisting new editors, creating new articles and expanding existing stubs on what I sincerely believe to be notable topics, evaluating AfD debates in an even-handed way, trying to protect BLPs subject to attacks, and trying to encourage compromise and the de-escalation of disputes. In all that time, I have been directly involved in very few bitter disputes with highly experienced editors, and have been able to resolve those without excessive acrimony. What am I doing wrong? Why am I never involved in these epic, ongoing battles? And why are you? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:46, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

You should try fighting the great conservative (!) bias that exists in political articles. That will help you become engaged in epic, ongoing battles. Resolute 17:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Skookum, my friend, you need to let it go. Get thee from the drama pages, including this one!!! Carrite (talk) 15:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I hear ya, Carrite, but check it out - I started work on new mountain and river and other items and "look who it is" that's thrown procedure at me to hobble my activities, waste my time, and it seems draw me in WP:BAITing or now throwing stones at me for alleged CaNVASSing by notifying affected WikiProjects (in the hope that people who actually write river articles and work with mountain categories will show up instead of the usual CfD lurkers). Whatever, I tried to get some work done, and now find myself harassed at it by the same person who blocked me and conducted hostile closes of RMs I'd fielded that were completely opposite to the majority of others of the same kind in the same series, in the same situation, and re the same policies and guidelines. Seems even I go away to Philippines and Thai articles I'll be followed and niggled at no matter what I do or how far away from this last few week's cultus ikta as I try to get.

@Jimbo Wales: I don't know if you actually read this board or not, or this is just a place for people to vent so their comments can be hauled off to the adminship for thought-police discipline and punishment.....but I'm a valuable contributor, here trying to put distance between those who have made my wiki-life miserable and needlessly stressful for weeks now......"can't a guy get any work done around here??". Telling me to 'not take it personally' when all the evidence of experience re this ....... person..... says that this is very, very personal....... I am risking my "freedom" and continued presence in Wikipedia by daring to criticize, daring to complain.

Is that really what you intended when you created the position of admin and the processes that govern becoming one and what they can do to ordinary editors? really??Skookum1 (talk) 21:21, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

He's on holiday at the moment., wait till he comes back. KonveyorBelt 22:24, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Cost of being right

This article might be appreciated by some Wikipedians, including some who watch this page.

• What's the cost of being right? | Teach the Soul

—Wavelength (talk) 18:54, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it's important to consider broader implications when deciding to engage some problem. Just to play devil's advocate, however, one could also ask, "what is the cost of leaving this problem unacknowledged?", or, "what is the cost of complacency?" I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:33, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of the GR8BIT article

Hello Jimmy et al, please excuse me for applying to you, but it seems we are stuck.

Would you please read [3] and give your reasoned assessment. Several people (including me of course) were working on the contents on MSX Resource Center (in Wiki secion) and were in Wikipedia, and article has several secondary sources.

Please clarify the following points:

• can several encyclopedias have same/similar contents on the subject? If not, why?
• Regarding notability, which was used as a reason to reject article first time:
  • (a) significant coverage is measurable (indicate threshold please), and what to do with specialized knowlegde which by default has limited coverage in general, significant only in specific communities;
  • (b) which rating scheme Wikipedia editors use to measure reliability of sources (i.e. "integrity" of sources' editors)? Is that even possible?
  • (c) Sources: multiple - how many? More than one?
  • (d) "Independent of the subject excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it." - how do you test it? If I bought HP notebook, I became affiliated with it because I am its customer, and under this clause should not have a right to edit information about HP and its products? Even if I know something useful about it? If I want to add value? If this clause would be strictly enforced, Wikipedia would stop its existence;
  • (e) Presumed assumption... one person assumes? Two? Committee? Me? People who creates contents of the article - however Wikipedia states that notability if not about article, but about subject? Can I vote for exclusion of all the articles from Wikipedia which subjects are not known to me? Is it the right way?

I fully understand that you truly strive to have quality and infringement-free contents in the encyclopedia, but this time (at least) editor hitting "NO" button and disappearing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EugenyBrychkov (talk • contribs) 22:38, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of the GR8BIT article part 2

Hi Jimbo. All tough I can imagine it looks a bit suspicious, I'm the author of the original article about GR8Bit on msx.org This can be easily checked by looking at the article history @ http://www.msx.org/wiki/index.php?title=GR8Bit&action=history

My email address on MSX.org is the same as I used now for my wikipedia account and is a confirmed e-mail address. Eugeny Brychkov and/or everyone else has the right to use and/or publish my Gr8Bit article complying to the Creative Commons Licence. I will update the article on msx.org with this CC license.

I hope this will solve this dispute. Eluppes (talk) 00:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Vacation reminder

It was archived so I wanted to remind people that I'm on vacation until mid-week next week. And after that I'm at board meetings in San Francisco and so not that much on-wiki bandwidth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 04:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Is it technically possible for such notices (editable by you) to appear above the edit window?

—Wavelength (talk) 04:46, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

It is possible for all administrators to create page notices which Mr. Wales could have used to carry this announcement. It wouldn't have been a terribly bad idea to have done so. Cheers.—John Cline (talk) 05:59, 18 April 2014 (UTC)