User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Controversial current events

Articles about controversial current events seem to attract editors with a bias. I have the impression that Wikipedia's influence on public opinion for these subjects is negligible compared to the influence of the news media, so that the only thing a biased editor could accomplish is to influence readers that Wikipedia is biased. --Bob K31416 (talk) 02:47, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Controversial article attract biased editors on both sides as well as neutral editors. Hopefully all sides work together to form an article that is neutral and unbiased (+/-5%).~Technophant (talk) 13:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey, Look! A dead seagull flying high! - Nabla (talk) 00:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You know, I've been giving that some thought. Evaluating bias in an article can be difficult. Sometimes a reader with bias regarding an article's subject will think a neutral article is biased. Sometimes an editor might want to believe that Wikipedia articles on controversial subjects are biased or unbiased, and that might affect their objective evaluation. I suppose that leads to the question of whether Wikipedia articles on controversial current events have been evaluated for bias in some objective study, or at least some attempt at one.

Regarding my original comment that compared to news media, Wikipedia has a negligible effect on public opinion regarding current events, I realize that's only while the events are current. As time passes and news reporting of the event goes away, I think Wikipedia may be the most influential written source about the event. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

User:MutterErde

Hi, User:Jimbo Wales, why did you block Mutter Erde? Lotje (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Strange to bring up something from 2005, but of course you can just look up the reason at the block log: "persistent copyvios after repeated warnings". Deli nk (talk) 13:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, strange to ask about a block from nearly 9 years ago. (Amazing to think how long it has been!) What made you wonder?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The edits on the different wikipedia do not seem to "fit". Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 14:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't the old blocks be let to expire after a time limit? Otherwise we'll end up with an enormous number of indefinite blocks by the year 2100... Count Iblis (talk) 17:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Possibly but what's the harm?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

We probably won't be around by 2100. Besides, it's not like they're doing any harm. BethNaught (talk) 18:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully!188.132.226.2 (talk) 22:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, looking toward the year 2100 according to this article: "This brings us to what I think may well be the most important task of our time. If there will eventually be an "intelligence explosion," how exactly can we set up the initial conditions so as to achieve an outcome that is survivable and beneficial to existing persons?" If Wikipedia is going to be used as a source about us, then we should be very careful about how we edit here :) . Count Iblis (talk) 22:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Throughout Wikipedia, "harm" seems to have become the watchword, and it seems "harm" can only be done by having content, not by not having it. So there's no harm in deleting articles 'just to be safe', based on some guess about what might happen if people read them, even when the rest of the world doesn't see it that way; nor in getting rid of the editors (like MeropeRiddle in the thread deleted above) for expecting, naively, that Wikipedia policy is publicly readable someplace; nor is there harm, as you say, in keeping a database of editors to be blocked for all time, so that the threat of some outing deters them from ever trying to start afresh. But if the people here really believe all that, why don't you just walk down to the server room and empty a couple of clips into them? You could probably avoid hundreds, even thousands of embarrassing incidents, even save a few lives somewhere, though we may not know where, by preventing the wrong people from learning the wrong thing. Sure, some readers lose some knowledge that might have slaked their idle curiosity, but who cares? That's as valueless as the hundreds of thousands of edits so many of the most active editors put in before being banned for some trumped-up issue. Why do so many here act like they really believe that contributions are the problem, information is the problem, and discarding editors and censoring out the facts is the universal answer? Wnt (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Nice rant, but not sure how it applies in this context. We are talking about a user banned for "persistent copyvios after repeated warnings".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't think we can let someone like that have a fresh start after nine years? True, in many ways it might be better for the person to start a fresh account and never mention the old one, but the way WP works, as long as the old one remains blocked there's a risk that the person admits he used to post under that account or can be traced from some postings on the web, etc. -- and end up with a fresh batch of trouble. We would do better to sweep all this stuff aside. I think past contributors, whether perfect or not, are still a good pool of prospects for future involvement. Wnt (talk) 15:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do think we can let just about anyone have a fresh start after nine years. That's why I said that I don't claim any special privilege with respect to the fact that I happened to be the one who banned him. We should just treat it like any other ban from nine years ago. What I meant in my comment to you is that the rant about having content versus not having content isn't really relevant to this particular case.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@ User:Wnt, you are right, information is the problem... too often. Though, I am convinced wiki wizzards and fairies are keeping a vigilant eye and help wherever they can.

@ User:Jimbo Wales, would you consider unblocking User:Mutter Erde. He, might be willing to make a fresh start. Thank you for considering it. Ye'all have a great day today. Lotje (talk) 06:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So really what your are asking for the ban on User:MutterErde to be lifted. The relevant policy page is WP:UNBAN although it is a little unclear how bans imposed by Jimbo can be lifted. I would start by the user making a case for why the ban should be lifted on their talk page: User talk:MutterErde. The appeal should address the two main reasons the ban was imposed WP:COPYVIO and WP:SOCK. Note ban and blocks are different things, bans which MutterErde has are more serious. See the reason for the ban at WP:BANLIST.--Salix alba (talk): 08:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Just read the text in the Jimbo Wales section of WP:BANLIST. "They may appeal their ban by emailing him or the Arbitration Committee."--Salix alba (talk): 08:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In this case, I'm happy to say that the fact that I am the one who banned him 9 years ago should play no special role today. If he seeks to be unbanned, he can follow whatever procedure the community thinks appropriate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

How generous of you after only 9 years of ban to allow a human being to be thrown to one of your drama boards to satisfy your community! 188.132.226.2 (talk) 22:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

About the harm this does, consider the situation on the long run. After a time T, the fraction of editors blocked in a time period spanning t will scale as t/T (this will start to be valid some time after the number of editors has stopped to grow exponentially). So, we'll have a huge list of blocked editors, but that list will be dominated by people who were blocked a long time ago. We keep an eye on new editors to see if they are socks of the blocked editors, so most of that effort is going to be wasted on checking for irrelevant or non-existent threats with the risk of false positives (who cares if an editor blocked at the age of 15 has returned at the age of 30?) The editors who should remain blocked are the editors who were blocked recently (in the last few years or so). It thus makes sense to unblock all editors after, say, 5 years unless there is evidence of recent misbehavior by socks. Count Iblis (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• IMO after 5 years, unless the community has decided that they cannot come back under any means, a banned or blocked editor should be able to make a clean start account, and if someone finds out it will not be held against them. KonveyorBelt 19:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In all honesty, am confused because I noticed there is a User:Mutter Erde and a User:MutterErde. I posted a message on the de.wikiquote userpage because I feel, having said A, I need to say B. The rest is up to everyone concerned I guess. Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 15:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I think we need an automated process to randomly delete stuff from Wikipedia. We could start with empty sections. They are so evil [1]. Stubs should be next, particularly those with zero refs etc. Then we could have process by which we automatically delete sourced material too, particularly if admin disagrees with it. Most sources are known to be unreliable from time to time. So DELETE all of them, just as a precaution. JMP EAX (talk) 16:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@ User:Jimbo Wales, sorry to trouble you again with blocked users, but from what I retrieved today, and what has been confirmed in a certain way by Mutter Erde, the Hans Bug case might be, as Mutter Erde calls it: ...die traurigste Leiche im Keller seiner deutschen WP-Filiale (translated: ...the saddest corpse in the basement of the Germand WP-Chapter.) IMHO, some checking at the 'wizzard heaven' would not harm anyone. Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 16:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia editor being railroaded by Wikipediocracy

[Note from Jimbo: I will be unable to look into this in a timely fashion but it sounds like there would be nothing for me to do at this stage anyway other than the usual: to advice calm, quiet reflection, a reduction of drama, and a serious effort to treat everyone with dignity as human beings.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)]

Mr Wales, Tutelary was doxxed by members of Wikipediocracy. They also claim that she is not really a transwoman, which is obvious transphobia. Now there is a proposal on ANI to topic ban her from BLPs or even site ban her. Just because she moderates some subreddits about women on Reddit does not mean that she is an MRA. Remember, Wikipediocracy are the same people who claimed that a KKK member shouldn't be editing articles about Jews. That's not how Wikipedia works - anyone can edit anything. I bet Tutelary knows more about feminists than most of the people who edit in that topic area. Please put a stop to this harrassment by Wikipediocracy supporters. Anyone voting to ban Tutelary should be banned for supporting doxxing. Doxelary (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

This is my favorite edit. We wouldn't want the readers thinking a fedora was ever anything but the manliest of manly hats. __ E L A Q U E A T E 22:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wow, Elaqueate, that's pretty impressive — 1300 edits your first month at Wikipedia and more than 3500 your second!!! Care to disclose your previous account name??? You don't seem to want to link account names on your user page, I see... (The cult of anonymity sucks.) Carrite (talk) 00:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC) — my bad, read years as months. Still — no linkage of accounts showing. Carrite (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I've never had another Wikipedia account. There's nothing to link. How many accounts do you have? __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

If you were to take a gander at the page's history, it will be painfully obvious the context of that revert. But yes, in given Doxelary's (is that a play on my name?) observation, I have been doxxed and there is a ANI proposal to site ban me. Oh, and for sheer else other than respect to trans people, a savvy ArbCom member should take a look at the whole darned mess as there are several people still referring to me by male pronouns when I've made clear that I am a woman. Tutelary (talk) 23:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to make you uncomfortable here Tutelary, but I am sure you understand why people may be confused by your statements about your gender. You have recently said that you are not a man and not trans but a woman (with the implication being that you were born a woman). Yet you identified briefly here as trans. You now say this was by accident, but it seems an awfully strange mistake to make, expecially in light of everything else. Wikipediocracy seems to think that you are a dude pretending to be trans and the comments on that blog post have links to where someone with your username talks about pretending to be a woman online so that you can infect their computer via racy images. So, without meaning any disrepect, would you be willing to clarify what you mean by "I am a woman"? Kaletony (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Kaletony (talk), you are apparently brand new to Wikipedia, yet amazingly you have mastered WP policy, jargon and formatting codes -- within 24 hours. Would you be willing to clarify whether you have ever edited WP under another username, or via an IP address? Are you a sock? Memills (talk) 00:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

MeMills, you are topic banned from "discussing the topic of men's rights on any page at Wikipedia unless it is in the context of an appeal of the ban itself". This is a discussion about an editor who is at risk of being banned for pushing an anti-feminist or pro-men's rights agenda. While I'm sure Titelary appreciates your support, mind that you don't get yourself banned in the process. Kaletony (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You do sound familiar -- that tone. I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable, but you haven't answered the question. Mind that you do not get a SPI. But, since you have only be editing WP for about 24 hours, I'm sure you have no idea what that refers to. Memills (talk) 04:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Start a sockpuppetry investigation if you feel like one is needed. Kaletony (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Please don't use the trans community as a shield for your hate of women, your gender isn't the most important thing here, it's the way you edit and what you are using the website for --5.81.51.98 (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, how horrible of Tutelary to revert a vandalism-only sockpuppet account. Exactly what level of absurdity is this witch-hunt going to reach?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention HJ Mitchell's block was for vague WP:NOTHERE reasoning, not for socking. So their contributions aren't quantifiable for deletion anywho by HJ Mitchell's own block. Tutelary (talk) 00:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

User:The Devil's Advocate: defender to the last of Qworty and User:Bonkers The Clown. (Bonkers calls African Americans niggers on article talk pages, calls the US president magic nigga, and wears a swastika in his user name when greeting newbies at the tea house.) Don't go taking his support as any kind of vindication. His name means what it says. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I know that there is an unfortunate coincidence that you on your travels, Jimmy, and not able to scrutinize things closely, just as you were when the Essjay shit hit the fan, but it is worth considering whether you want to support someone playing the same sort of game as Essjay played of pretending to be what he was not in order to gain an advantage in on-Wiki discussions. Do you again want to let a troll, in this case a misogynist one, be seen to have gulled you?--92.238.57.40 (talk) 00:30, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Administrator and blocker of the IP HJ Mitchell restored the IP's comment, even though in their block heavily implicated they were a sock, yet he doesn't want us to remove the reply. Still, I am a woman and the fact that you only have insults and dragging my name through the mud to back up your accusations is really telling. Tutelary (talk) 01:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Whoever you are, the facts are clear. You have been pursuing a misogynistic campaign.KonveyorBelt 01:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Doxelary, what exactly do you want from Wales, to block Wikipediocracy? 84.253.75.6 (talk) 16:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary — stop socking. Carrite (talk) 00:28, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

If Tutelary emails you, I recommend you don't click any links or open any attachments. (Per WP:ANI#For your own safety.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

For all we know, Tutelary may already have hacked Jimbo's account, the accounts of most ArbCom members and Admins. Wikipedia is doomed :). Count Iblis (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh please, Tutelary has directly confirmed they have hacked various peoples computers before, its fair to recommend not opening links from private emails sent --5.81.51.98 (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

On some forum devoted to hacking. If an editor does that here, that's sufficient grounds for an indefinite ban. It's not all that difficult to check if links or attachments are going to cause problems without opening them, so it would be a rather stupid thing to do. Count Iblis (talk) 20:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

need help.............ebola virus epidemic west africa

hi sorry to bring this to your attention, however I've been trying to give an opinion in regards to the latest ebola outbreak on the talk page for "ebola virus epidemic west Africa", however I keep getting the runaround. At issue is the recent publication,,,,,,, http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/09/09/oxford-study-predicts-15-more-countries-are-at-risk-of-ebola-exposure/ ,,,& ,,,http://elifesciences.org/content/early/2014/09/05/eLife.04395 the latter being a scientific journal which on page 45 (pdf) makes a direct relation between the west Africa and Congo outbreaks on its map. I believe this warrants (1) Congo's inclusion into the "cases-table" for overall case amount and (2) a better written Congo part; more connected to the overall ebola outbreak in Africa.I, aside from noting the above on the respective "talk page" have also brought it up with "Gandydancer" one of the principle editors, on this persons talk page, but have gotten little discussion.I believe everyone should be equal in opinion, without "page ownership". How should I proceed in your opinion?,,thank you

P.S.....W.H.O. itself has used west Africa and Congo together to show total cases (page 4 ) as I requested in article,,, (http://www.afro.who.int/en/downloads/doc_download/9431-who-response-to-the-ebola-virus-disease-evd-outbreak-update-by-the-who-regional-director-for-afric.html... .--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a good discussion to have at the talk page. I'm not fully persuaded by your argument as the two outbreaks seem to be unrelated. If there is sufficient data, then I think a separate cases table for the Congo would be wise. And yes, the Congo part should be better written. I am not sure what you mean about "direct relation" and "more connected to the overall ebola outbreak". What we certainly should not do is go against reliable sources and make it seem to the reader that these two outbreaks are directly related. But - this is probably a discussion better held at the talk page. (As you may have noticed, I'm active there already.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I have not given Ozzie a run-around. I replied to him/her on September 10 suggesting that this can be difficult to understand, and suggested that he read the Ebola disease and the Ebola virus articles. He never responded. As for including a table for the Congo outbreak, I don't agree. The West Africa article is long enough as it is, and the Congo outbreak needs to play out a little bit longer before we increase coverage of it, though definitely in a separate article. Gandydancer (talk) 19:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Your reasoning persuades me - almost. I think that a separate article is warranted now, based on significant independent coverage in high quality sources. [2] is an example.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Foot voting

Hi Jimbo, you and your WMF win by ignoring more than 800[3] votes. As Lenin said: "They voted with their feet". After some 30.000 Edits in 7 years i quit as WP:supporter So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish --Gruß Tom (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)