User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Article in the Register

The Register has published another article criticizing the Wikimedia Foundation for not using the $60 million in assets it has, which according to the article is "far more than the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) needs to run a website." (I say "another" because of articles like this). Do you, Mr. Wales, have anything to say about this? I.e. what is the purpose of the $60 million that the foundation is said to be "sitting on"? Everymorning talk to me 18:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

The article is by Andrew Orlowski, someone's whose journalistic skills I can't comment on here. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I can. Past experience shows he's got a very long history of attacking Wikipedia, often with one-sided and inaccurate or downright untrue claims. He's also got form as an egregious climate change denialist. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. Prioryman (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Orlowski used to be amusing. About ten years ago. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

More diplomatic than I would have put it. :-) --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the link, NeilN. I must have forgotten to do so myself for some reason. Everymorning talk to me 20:32, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

This one is easy. I'm extremely proud of our financial track record and consider our level of reserves to be prudent and sensible - neither too large nor too small. Here is some typical advice about nonprofit reserves: "A commonly used reserve goal is 3-6 months' expenses. At the high end, reserves should not exceed the amount of two years' budget." How much should my nonprofit have in its operating reserve? For further information from the Wikimedia Foundation, see this question and answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo, that's really useful. It's strange that Orlowski, who is apparently a professional journalist, didn't do the basic fact-finding that would have given him those answers before he started frantically hammering his keyboard. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:59, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Just to expound on what Jimbo Wales said, the document he linked shows the 2014-2015 budget to be "$58.5 million in spending, including $8.2 million in spending allocated for grants". The article linked describes $60 million in reserve which is in line with a 12 month reserve, which is common. Rmosler | ● 22:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Whoever said Orlowski was a professional journalist? He appears to come up with his story before he writes it, then cherry-picks or misrepresents facts to support his preferred spin. This is just more of the same. Prioryman (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I meant professional in what I consider the original sense, that is, someone who makes their living by means of full time employment in a particular activity. I did not intend to imply anything about the quality of the work carried out during that employment, nor about any ethical principles underlying the execution of it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You allege Wikipedia runs no adds, but how about 14,000+ advertisement articles you have? How many more are there]? For example User:CorporateM is an openly payed editor who writes good advertisement articles, yet still advertisements, and get paid for writing them.121.40.91.74 (talk) 19:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Example, please? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It is important for a non-profit to be able to support its operations for a suitable period if funds dry up for some reason, note also that this figure is for assets - so it includes the servers, any advanced payments, office furniture - and it doesn't take account of liabilities. Orlowski has been attacking Wikipedia for years, and has really lost all credibility where Wikipedia is concerned. See for example [1] where he implied that only Wikipedia editors would want to read Wikipedia... (and here for why his Immanuel Kant argument was wrong.) However it might be ethical to go back to the model where the banner is removed the minute we hit our target. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC).

The longevity of many very small non-profits (and especially large ones) rely on their endowments and safe investments to operate through tough times. Even minor things like accounting for inflation and increases in the cost of services becomes important when you operate off donations. Immanuel Kant is never someone I'd want to argue with, but his arguments have sizable holes once you pick through the layers. Gosh... David Hume is at Good Article nominations and we are here bringing Kant into the matter! Small world, especially since it is you who is bringing it up Rich! Haha. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:11, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who wants to know how easy it is to end up with an endowment that loses significant amount of its worth through bad investing can ask Harvard what happened to its endowment causing it to institute a hiring freeze and stop its new science campus plans when the economy imploded and the Great Recession began. The core of an endowment shouldn't be used for day to day expenses, it is a rainy day fund and a source of dividend creation that can subsidize the ebb and flow inherent in normal flows of revenue.Camelbinky (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

It's typical that the very first reaction here to the Register's article is to demean its writer. The issue many people have with this fundraising campaign is that the ads clearly imply that Wikipedia's survival is at stake, when it is not. The ads are clearly deceptive, and may violate laws in some countries. According to this discussion, more than a few Wikipedia insiders think the ads are misleading also. Wikipedia's survival is not at stake. Costs, mainly for programming staff have doubled while the number of users is steady or even declining. Even if the site had no fundraising revenues, it could easily cut staff and survive for years. Most people are donating because of the content, yet very little of the funds goes to content creators. And there's the issue of the fundraising banners taking up 50% of user's screens. Here's my line-by-line analysis of the fundraising banner, and here's another article on the The Daily Dot. -- Sparkzilla talk! 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Those who attack the person and not their arguments are not helping the matter, but criticism of Wikipedia is a key part of understanding and correcting flaws. Most of us are here to build and maintain the growing encyclopedia and the argument about the ads does deserve some discussion. I have found them more intrusive, but I still think they are a major improvement over donation ads appearing over every article. I'm sure Jimbo is aware of the "humor" that campaign enabled and the WMF moved on from that style. Could the current ads be excessive, yes, but trying new things is an important part of trying to improve. It is probably just not best to do so on this page, at this time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Damage to the brand

This has gone viral, and the Wikipedia brand is taking a serious hit because the Wikimedia foundation has been completely tone deaf when members of the community it is supposed to be supporting have complained (see mailing lists). Do you have an opinion about this? --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 23:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Undisclosed Paid Advocacy (UPA) templates and Policy

Jimmy, I have two questions apropos User:Jimbo_Wales/Paid_Advocacy_FAQ. 1)What should happen to content that is the product of UPA (Undisclosed Paid Advocacy)? Perhaps, any UPA prior to the ToS should be grandfathered, like content on Commons prior to tightened rules on using appropriate license tags and the like. And any content created after the ToS banned UPA, that is the product of UPA, be removed through the use of templates like {{subst:Copyvio|url}}/{{Copyvio}}. 2)Are you aware of any significant efforts, since the Terms of Use were changed to bar UPA, to create a specific policy page that says that the product of UPAE, like the product of a copyright violation, should be removed? I don't think anyone's tried to create an equivalent of {{subst:Copyvio|url}} to tag UPA. I'm sure most of the folks who make money performing PAE and UPAE will continue to !vote against such moves, but perhaps Paid Advocates could be excluded from such voting. I thought it worth asking Jimbo, (and unavoidably, his talk page stalkers) and CTA.--Elvey^(t•c) 01:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Anything to help deal with the scourge of paid advocates is worth considering. One problem with tagging UPA is that often it is somewhat ambiguous. (Often it isn't, of course.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Pinged for this discussion. I didn't even know there was a FAQ. As to your question, I don't know the answer. The attitude toward both disclosed and undisclosed paid contributions is extremely permissive, so I don't see the point of working up a sweat about it. Usually when a company dispatches employees or contractors to an article it is extremely obvious, and if dealt with firmly can usually be gotten rid of so that uninvolved editors can be left to edit without harassment. I actually addressed one aspect of the topic on my user page just the other day.[2] Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Jimbo, having discovered the FAQ I've taken the liberty of adding a paragraph, so as to close a loophole that I've seen mentioned here and there. If it's not what you want, please advise and I will take it out. Coretheapple (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm generally in favor of anything that would tend to minimize paid advocacy editing, but I also really dislike all the tags that get left on article pages, sometimes for years after the problem has been addressed (I suggest putting most tags on the talk page). For the most part, the proposed tag would be doing the same thing as the advertising tags or the NPOV tag - so I'll say that there's no need for a new tag.

That said, there is a need for editors to go clean up the advertisers' (and the paes') messes. Perhaps we could organize Wiki-project:PAE cleanup. There have been a couple of projects that say that they try to minimize PAE problems, but to my reading they've ended up giving paid editors advice on how to skirt the rules - not something I want. If folks are really interested in a real PAE cleanup project, please let me know. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

• What is really needed is a check button under the edit summary with THIS IS A COI EDIT (linked to the policy page), right next to THIS IS A MINOR EDIT. If clicked, this would tag the summary as a COI edit so that the change could be reviewed by an unconnected editor. No need to deface the article for all time with a flag. Carrite (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I would support that, as long as checking the box results in an immediate revert and ban on further editing in article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:35, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty extreme take, isn't it? Carrite (talk) 07:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I think it's relatively mild, actually. Once someone self-identifies as a paid advocacy editor, it is extremely unwise (giving rise to a completely justified perception of corruption) to let them continue editing article space.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm all for what you're suggesting, Jimbo. But at this point it is not policy. If you want to make it policy, perhaps through a strengthening of the Terms of Use by the WMF, it would certainly be a step forward. But right now you'll not get support from the community. I think that this is an issue in which the community needs to be led, not followed. Coretheapple (talk) 16:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Make the check box for THIS IS A PAID EDIT and require it to be used in the case of paid edits. I'm 100% in favor of that. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:04, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I think we all realize that not all COI edits are paid COI edits. They all need to be checkable, whether or not the writer has been paid. Carrite (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Who should I ping to get a reading on the technical issues of including such a box, Philippe (WMF)? Probably not, but he should know who to contact. The technical issues, as I see them, would be

1. how to get a read out on your watchlist, perhaps with a bolded P or PE or Pde (I've got a personal preference here) next to the paid entry. Perhaps only paid entries on a special list where you don't need to specify the articles you're interested in.

2. How long would it take to get up and running? Less than the time needed to pass a new policy (since it would have to be a requirement to click the box for paid entries)?

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:21, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

This would be a horrible idea as it would send the false message that we condone COI (paid advocacy) editing. Such edits should be immediate grounds for banning.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Again, this is a perspective that is way, way, way, way more extreme than the standing consensus about such things. The new Terms Of Use by WMF have more or less codified paid editing. That ship has sailed. Carrite (talk) 07:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that certain forms of paid editing, e.g. Wikipedians in Residence, are specifically allowed on En Wikipedia, others are regulated by the WMF under the ToS but not specifically mentioned under En Wikipedia rules. I'd agree that that ship has sailed, except that very few paid editors seem to follow the regulation - how many many paid editing declarations have you seen? (and how do you find these declarations? I think I've seen less than a half-dozen paid editing declarations, we may need something a bit stricter. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 08:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Smallbones, don't fall for this fallacy of equating all paid editing with paid *advocacy* editing. We should welcome, for example, universities who encourage professors to edit Wikipedia on their subject matter expertise, even paying them bonuses to do so. That's not the issue that anyone is really concerned about and is 100% different from the moral corruption of paid advocacy editing. Carrite seems to think the ship has sailed on this issue, but he's mistaken. The WMF terms of service did not codify paid advocacy editing - it was a first step at banning it completely. The wind is blowing very strongly against it, and those who are engaging in paid advocacy editing of article space (as opposed to following the bright line rule approach) should understand that the mood of the community is very strongly against them and increasingly so.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I think you (Jimbo) must have misunderstood me. This would just be a required disclosure for paid editing similar to one of the 3 required now. Paid editors now have their choice of declaring on their user page, on the talk page, or in the edit summary. This would just be a small variation of the edit summary, except that it would be required so that we can find paid edits easily and thus more easily monitor it, rather than searching around in 3 different places. i.e. paid editors can effectively hide their paid edits now. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I see where you are coming from but I still don't agree. I don't think we should take steps to normalize paid advocacy editing of article space whatsoever. We should require disclose (as we currently do) and require avoiding article space ENTIRELY for paid advocacy editors. There is simply no valid justification for doing that editing yourself, when you are being paid, as opposed to asking completely independent unpaid (i.e. uncorrupted) editors to take a look at your paid-for suggestions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

@user:Smallbones I think such a plan for post-edit reviews would be appropriate if most paid edits were good changes that only needed a quick re-assurance. In practice though, the majority of them are self-serving edits, asking to add awards, philanthropy, and other promotional material using primary sources. Also, the number of hours it would take WMF to develop new features would actually be more hours than the community spends each month reviewing Request Edits in pre-existing tools.

I think the community is too focused on "transparency & review" as the solution to paid editing, whereas I give article-subjects advice based on an "abstain, unless, then" model, where abstaining is the de-facto. CorporateM (Talk) 04:56, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that "transparency and review" is where we're at. Let's make sure it is as transparent as can be and as well reviewed as we are able. That has always been the key to solving this contentious issue. (I really like your "transparency and review" phrasing, by the way, that's right on the money...) Carrite (talk) 07:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

For those interested in an example of CorporateM's advice on "abstain, unless, then", here is a batch of content that has been waiting patiently for nearly two weeks for the "then" portion, i.e., "review and consideration by a disinterested editor to avoid any remote appearance of impropriety". Clearly CorporateM's version ("The merger was opposed by consumer advocates, such as the Consumer Federation of America, due to anti-trust concerns. The two companies combined would become the largest pet food brand by market-share with a 45 percent share of the cat food market.") is better than Wikipedia's current version ("Both corporations saw this major strategic transaction as the ideal way to benefit from their combined know-how, complementary strengths and international presence in the growing pet-care market."), but since Nestle presumably paid for the improved content, it's radioactive and few volunteer editors would dare introduce it to Wikipedia's article space. CorporateM undoubtedly got paid for the research and writing time, regardless of whether it gets pasted into article space or not. Prelude after noon (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

From what I've seen, transparency and review has failed us quite significantly. Whether a paid editor discloses and follows the Bright Line or acts covertly, the outcome tends to be the same edits, only now the edits have increased stickiness and the paid editor can claim immunity to accountability for their edits, being that they didn't actually make them themselves. It promotes gaming the system, canvassing, and creates more trouble than just deleting promotional material in article-space. WP:COI says editors with a COI are suppose to be "cautious" but the PR industry seems to now believe advocacy is acceptable so long as it's in Talk space. There are cases where BrightLine/transparency is useful, but it is difficult to say whether its net-effect is good or bad. In most cases the article-subject wants something different than Wikipedia and we do not want them to reach those goals that are counter to our mission, regardless of the process or level of transparency used to attain them. CorporateM (Talk) 18:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I just had an idea that I have not thought through in any great detail. We have the capability (not used much here but wildly popular in other languages) to put articles into "flagged revisions" state, see Wikipedia:Pending changes. It would require some (relatively simple, probably) changes to MediaWiki to put editors into that state, or even for individual editors to tick a box to request review by an independent editor before that change goes live. I can imagine a lot of use cases for this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:11, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Good idea to minimize bureaucracy. Requesting a change on the talk page is pretty much a waste of time because it's often overlooked. If the proposed change were turned into a pending change, that would be useful. Next time somebody reliable edited the article, the change would be reviewed and adopted or rejected. Presumably if an account were discovered doing paid advocacy, it could be set to this state by an administrator, or an ethical PR agency could create accounts in this state. Somebody doing an occasional paid edit could flag particular edits without flagging their account. Jehochman ^Talk 14:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this "flagged editors" thing is a good idea. Also I understand Jimbo's concerns about re Carrite's/Smallobne's suggestion. However, what Carrite is simply doing is recognizing that COI editing is permitted. I agree that identifying paid editors edits (Smallbones' idea) in the same fashion would be counterproductive. Coretheapple (talk) 16:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Such a feature would also be useful for new editors that are unsure of their edits and can use pending changes to attract coaching from more experienced editors. Regarding the feature for paid edits, it would be important that the reviewer has a button they can press to push it to the Talk page, since many COI contributions shouldn't be accepted as-is, but do flag important issues (errors, attack pages, etc.) that are important enough such that a disinterested editor should correct them. CorporateM (Talk) 14:34, 7 December 2014 (UTC) (paid editor)

Semi-Protection

I see that this talk page has been semi-protected due to block evasion. I thought that User:Jimbo Wales had traditionally had an open-door policy on this page with regard to blocked and banned users, so that this page was an exception to the rule that editing logged out by blocked or banned users was sockpuppetry. There was a recent ArbCom case resulting from an edit-war over the removal of posts by banned users. Looking over that case, I don't see that the ArbCom changed the status of this page. Has Jimbo changed the policy on this page and requested the semi-protection? In view of some of the recent posts by IPs to this page, the semi-protection is probably a good idea, but was it Jimbo's idea? Just asking. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Nope. He's elaborated on this a few times. Interesting discussions have been removed as a result of this, too. (By the protecting admin) Also relevant: User_talk:HJ_Mitchell#Would_you_please_partially_self_revert.3F Tutelary (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

What is the point of drawing attention to obvious trolling? People should work out the purpose of Wikipedia and promote that purpose. Anyone wanting gossip should go to the other website. Thanks to HJ Mitchell! Johnuniq (talk) 00:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with temporary semi-protection and I'm also fine with the occasional removal of tedious rehashes of old points by banned users. But I also in general want to keep an open door policy, even to banned editors, without giving them an infinite soapbox to harass me and others. I'd say that if I've responded to someone, that's a good indicator that I think the question and my answer should stand publicly - though 'hatting' is a good option if the discussion seems to be spinning into uselessness. These are going to be difficult judgment calls and the main thing that I think came out of the recent ArbCom case is that good users should assume good faith and try not to edit war about such things. In the discussion on HJ Mitchell's talk page, there was a good suggestion: if a user in good standing feels that there was a valid question that needs answering, then they can ask it themselves. I think that's a good approach.

In the two specific threads that were removed, I gave my answer to one: WP:CHILDPROTECT is policy which can and will be enforced both by the community in some cases, and by the WMF in some cases. The other, well, I have to defer to WMF Legal for further questions in part because of the delicate nature of such matters, but also in part because I'm not personally privy to recent developments. (I could ask, and they would give me a detailed briefing, but I'm not that interested in the details right now. I think the Foundation should take a much harder line and ban not just based on the narrow grounds they use today, but also quite a few abusers who are disrupting the community, but that's another question for another day.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Err, are you talking the WMF ban more people on child protection issues or....something else? I really hope you're not referring to people in the case just closed as I am sure everyone is taking a step back, recharging, calming down and (hopefully) moving on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to be ambiguous. No, I wasn't referring to any recent case. I think the current WMF approach to child protection is good and thankfully it remains a very tiny and rare problem. Speaking in general, I think that the WMF should step in more aggressively when we have cases of volunteers being harassed. Getting involved in bans in areas relating to POV pushing and whatnot would be unwise, as those are things about which the community has great expertise and that system seems to be working relatively well. But I would like to see more aggressive enforcement of the terms of service, particularly "Engaging in harassment, threats, stalking, spamming, or vandalism".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Aah ok, yes that I agree on. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Harassment

User: Jimbo Wales, if you are saying that the WMF should be more involved in cases of harassment, I strongly agree in particular if you mean off-wiki harassment, such as is being seen against some of the active editors of Gamergate controversy. I realize that case is now in arbitration, but the ArbCom can only act against editors, not against off-wiki chatters, and that editors who are being harassed off-wiki may need the legal and investigative resources of the WMF. I think that the community does a reasonably good job with respect to on-wiki harassment (for which editors are IBAN'd or banned), stalking, spamming, and vandalism, although the community can use help. I agree as to actual threats, that the WMF should assist law enforcement. I agree that the WMF can do more with respect to off-wiki harassment. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. I think that the outing and abuse faced by Ryulong in particular was dreadful, even while I think his editing and acceptance of funding from one side of the debate was deeply inappropriate. The whole thing makes me sad because, at the end of the day, I'd like people to communicate in a thoughtful and respectful way without any pressures - neither threats nor pay but a pure commitment to a neutral explanation of the world.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Robert, thanks for your thoughts on this. For those who are unaware, I head up the Community Advocacy team at the WMF, and I've been a Wikipedian for years... since, like, Jimmy was a little boy, I think. I'm also one of the longest term employees at the WMF. My team is the one that's charged with liaising with law enforcement in the (thankfully rare) situation where that is needed. We also work closely with the legal team as guardians of the privacy policy. It's a bit of an odd balancing act - on the one hand, as someone who has been subject to off-wiki harassment myself, I want to throw the book, the bookcase, and possibly the wall at someone who subjects users to that. On the other, I want to be certain that we're guarding our ideals for privacy and not over-disclosing to law enforcement, which can subject editors in some countries to very real possibility of harm (economic, social, judicial...). Where we see evidence that users are being actually harassed off-wiki in ways that go beyond simple internet trolling (not to downplay the seriousness of that - it's often very vitriolic and very personal), we have worked with users to collect enough evidence to build a case to take to law enforcement, and have been somewhat successful in getting the attention of investigators. Frequently, though, it falls on us to build the case because we are the ones with access to the necessary tools and the domain knowledge.

So, as with most things, it's a balancing act - we're balancing resources (my team is small - just five people, and hiring one more now), time, priorities, and values. I'm delighted that over the last several years the appetite for this type of work seems to be picking up. General Counsel Geoff Brigham and his legal team are top notch in defending our users, and Geoff is not afraid to go garrulously into areas where others might fear to tread. He's been a strong support for defending the community over the last few years that I've worked for him. Lila takes her commitment to the site's editors very seriously and is fiercely protective of you all, as Sue was before her.

But the folks doing the harassing are frequently very smart. They use proxies, VPNs, and throw-away email accounts, and layers upon layers of protection. It's very difficult to find them, sometimes, without subpoena power, which the government has wisely decided to withhold from me. :-) My team is very smart too... we've got specialized tools that James builds for us, strong support from Erik and Damon and the product and engineering teams, and we're persistent.

I say all of this to say that simply because it doesn't often look like we're doing much, it doesn't mean we aren't. In some cases, the best we can do is collect data and build files. In others, we take a more active role. But we're very interested in knowing about what's happening. If you find yourself in a position where I should know about harassment, please reach out to me. My email address is philippe@wikimedia.org, and I've got email enabled so you can email me through the wiki as well. You can also call the office at any point and ask for me. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:25, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Idea

Jimbo - see [3] Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Very interesting! I'd never thought of this approach, so let me say it in my own words to see if I can capture what you are saying: if someone can't be substantively discussed in any Wikipedia entry other than their own biography, this is a warning sign to us that the person may be simply "famous for being famous" and therefore not truly encyclopedic. I write it this way ("a warning sign to us") to avoid overstating the case, as there could certainly be exceptions. And there are some ways that people can try to be a bit wikilawyerly about it - imagine a set of twins, each of whom could in theory be discussed in each other's entry, but taken as a pair, they aren't notable for any other topic. I think such games playing, though, doesn't really do anything to undermine your core insight here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:04, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes - precisely it - sort of a boomerang effect. If the person has not done anything that could be reasonably included in a nonbiographic article, then this comes into play (a bit like being solely notable for being a relative and having done nothing else notable) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah, famous for being famous. I first came across this meme almost 20 years ago in the book Realtime Interrupt by James Hogan. Highly recommended if you like Hard science fiction. I lump a fair number of people in this category. Most reality TV stars for example. I vote we delete Kim Kardashian. (That's an attempt at humor BTW. Don't go ballistic KK fans.) Nyth83 (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I give up

We, that is, the peasant that is me, appreciate your intervention in restoring a rubbish article about rubbish without sources or any kind of comprehensibility. We also appreciate your facilitation of the co-opting of the encylopaedia by dregs from the region of the Internet that is called Lower Slobbovia. Thank you, sir. We do appreciate it. We do appreciate all your work in making the encylopaedia you created look like the domain of foolish lunatics. Praise God, and farewell. RGloucester — ☎ 20:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I wish you well in life.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

No you don't. Nor do you care how much time your 'volunteers' have to put in to try and make the project better. Unilateral overruling numerous editors and a month long merge discussion for an article mirrored by the Neo-Nazi Metapedia is beyond the pale. All you've shown is just how much you don't give a fuck. Dave Dial (talk) 20:14, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:NPA applies to you as much as anyone else. I really do in fact care only about the volunteers who are spending time on the project, and I would like to see a wider discussion. What's the harm? Nothing, unless you care only that your view prevail - but WIkipedia is an encyclopedia, not a battleground, so insulting me or anyone else isn't really appropriate. It would be much better if, instead, you joined the discussion and helped me to bring in a wider group of editors to review the decision. My specific concern has been expressed by other editors who are not "right wing" by any stretch of the imagination that there is a difference between the meme an the actual ideas. Perhaps they are wrong - wider discussion by more editors will help us to determine that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:20, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

For the rest of us who have this page on their watchlist and wonder what is happening here, some sort of clarification of what is being discussed would be more than welcome. John Carter (talk) 20:17, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

There was a controversial redirect which took place after a fairly evenly balanced !vote and I've reopened the question for further discussion with a wider audience. I have no (strong) position on whether the redirect is the right thing or not. But I do believe that whenever there is a dramatic move like this, it deserves a longer thoughtful discussion with the wider community.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Specifically, on Talk:Cultural Marxism#Merger proposal. From what I can see, RGloucester is upset that a merge discussion that he extensively took part in and closed himself was reopened for more discussion by Jimbo. --Onorem (talk) 20:40, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed the discussion was gaining more oppose opinions before it was closed, I myself would also oppose the decision if it were still open. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Seriously? You gave a decent speech about "toxic atmosphere" and the like at Wikimania 2014 (well, at least the part I watched online -- mostly just read a transcript.) And you reply to a frustrated editor with snark like that? Pots and kettles come to mind. NE Ent 20:20, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

What snark? I do wish him well in life. If he's so angry about an extension of a discussion that he wants to leave, well, that's ok.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:21, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, you needn't worry, Your Majesty. As I've said elsewhere, I'm the type that submits to authority, and appreciate your most gracious direction. I shall merely diverge from this topic, and return to doing whatever else a servant such as I must do. Perhaps I shall go find a grate, and clean-out some spilled ashes. RGloucester — ☎ 20:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, there's the snark. Even so, I wish you well in life. The attitude that you project on me doesn't exist at all, but if makes you feel better to pretend to it, i will not try to stop you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:24, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Believe me sir, I don't project it on you. I truly favour it. In fact, I recently proposed that we return to the days of appointment of administrators by the Crown. One might think I was being a bit absurd, but I'm stating what's true, and nothing else. As it is, I've got some grates to clean-out. Thank you dearly. RGloucester — ☎ 20:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• What's going on? Do you remember about Wikipedia:Etiquette? Ochilov (talk) 20:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am a huge advocate of it. I think that all editors should be treated with thoughtfulness and respect, and that controversial decisions should always be open to thoughtful reconsideration, particularly by bringing in the wider community for review. I thank everyone for their hard work, including the significant number of people who are good editors and objected to this move, AND including the significant number of people who are good editors and supported this move. My view is that we should work together to find an appropriate compromise position that everyone can agree is better than what went before - this is the philosophical core value behind the idea of "NPOV".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:32, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 6)Meaning always depends on context; they're not an inherent quality of the words themselves. If an acquaintance you have good rapport tells you they're moving away to a different city, "I wish you well in life," is a nice thing to say. In this context, it comes off as curt smug condescension -- oh, I'm above the fray and your petty little concerns (here's a nice pat on the head.) Possibly, in the context of a longer comment, it wouldn't be so snarky; unfortunately I can't give an example as (like John Carter) I don't know the context of what led to this. NE Ent 20:30, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

In this context, it is very much the former and not the latter. I do understand your point, but no snark was intended by me. If RGloucester is so upset that we are going to have a discussion for 7 days that he will quit the project, then I have no interest in making him unhappy. He's a valued editor and I respect his autonomy - but not more than I respect the importance of not shutting down discussions when there is a genuine controversy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales, I truly agree with it. Ochilov (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing uncivil about wishing someone well in life when they decide to take their ball and go home. Those assuming smugness or bad faith are projecting their own cynicism. You can wish someone well even if they disagree with you. This is getting silly. Chillum 20:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I could have been more expressive, for sure, and people might not have misinterpreted me. I'm sorry for that. I was confronted with someone angry and I only wanted to defuse that anger with goodwill.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not, and haven't been "angry", sir. Please enjoy your article. As I said, I shall return to cleaning grates. However, it is hard to return to cleaning grates when one is speaking of me down the corridor. Whilst it is certainly within your prerogative to do so, I do wish I could petition you to halt such conservation, so that I can carry on with my work. RGloucester — ☎ 20:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I am happy to discontinue. I wonder if, perchance, you happen to have ever read the satirical book Fuck, Yes! by Wing F. Fing. I read it many years ago but just picked it up again recently. The persona you have adopted is remarkably similar to that of Bruno in the book.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

As if you could believe that a person such as me would read such an obscene piece of literature! You shame me. If there is one thing I have, it is my propriety. Sadly, it seems most people in this present world lack it. RGloucester — ☎ 21:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry about the spilled ashes, RGloucester, already a grate article. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Jimbo you have to understand some editors here have an agenda to get you to leave Wikipedia as they despise you. This has been going on for months now and every comment you make may it be good or bad has been an excuse to continue it. I wonder... what if an admin had reopened the discussion for further comment? Would the result have been the same? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, as much as I would like them to be happy, I'm afraid that it's very unlikely that I will be going anywhere anytime soon. I've been on the Internet a long time, so I'm used to such things. I'm pretty easy to disagree with about various things, of course, as I'm a person with opinions. But I'm a pretty difficult person to actually despise, and so I have a kind of quiet admiration for those rare few who can work themselves up to that. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear that @Jimbo Wales: :D--5 albert square (talk) 21:53, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

@Knowledgekid87: as an admin I can guarantee you that it wouldn't have. @Jimbo Wales: I have picked up on the same sort of thing that Knowledgekid87 has picked up on, in fact I think a fair few editors will have picked up on it. There are probably some watching every edit/comment you make and will use it to continue regardless--5 albert square (talk) 21:12, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

While it may be true that some editors are anti-Jimbo no matter what he does, it's unfair and dismissive to put Robert and I into that category based on nothing. I have always respected Jimbo, even when I disagree with him. That I do not respect this decision is obvious, as it seems Jimbo has been in email contact with someone and has not even bothered to read the Merge discussion before restoring the page and declaring more discussion needed by fiat. If other editors don't have a problem with Jimbo's secret discussions and acting as King, that's their problem. I most definitely do. Dave Dial (talk) 21:28, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I actually read the merge discussion quite keenly. It was not so one-sided that it would be appropriate for someone who is a self-described Marxist, and who opened the discussion and pushed a particular point of view during that discussion, to also be the person who closed it rather contentiously. There is no harm, and much good, from taking a pause and having a further discussion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:32, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, if you read the Merge discussion, you would know there is no such thing as "Cultural Marxism", except in the eyes if fringe extremist and Neo-Nazis. One would think a self-described Marxist would be a fine candidate to close the discussion, since they would know all about Marxism. One would also think that the off-site canvassing would play a role in any decision to continue the never-ending flood of [[WP:SPA|SPAs]. Of course the 8chan 'discssuion' was closed down, but here is the saved archive grab. Where even most of the "Gamergate" supporters were leary of the /pol/ radicals call to action to defend an obvious Nazi canard. Now we have an article that matches the Neo-Nazi Metapedia. http://en.meta-pedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism You have to take the "-"(dash) out of the URL, since the Neo-Nazi site is blacklisted here.

Screen capture of our illustrious two websites, Wikipedia and Metapedia

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DD2K (talk • contribs) 22:06, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a very very unlikely reading of the discussion I have to say. It's very easy (but not very persuasive) to scream "Neo-Nazi" but much harder to produce an actual coherent argument that will be persuasive to people without an agenda.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:30, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Every Wikipedia post, like most communication, has three components: the intent of the sender, the content itself, and the perception of the readers. Based on my edit counts and some heuristics, I'd estimate I've likely read ten thousand conflicts on Wikipedia noticeboards since following a watchlist request for volunteers six years ago. The overwhelming majority of those were not caused by malice so much as miscommunication, which is quite easy given the limitations of text and wide variety of cultures from which Wikipedia draws its contributors. I doubt neither your intent nor that you truly wish RGloucester well. But surely you wish all 121,176 active users well, too, but you're not going to be posting "I wish you well" on all their talk pages, right? Regardless of some "treat me like every editor" ideal you may have, you are THE FOUNDER and any perceived criticism of a volunteers editor's effort is going to have a disparate impact compared anyone else. So when an apparently very frustrated editor starts a thread as RGloucester did, I'd suggest as much focus should go into the likely perception of your words as your intent in posting them. In some cases, and perhaps this was one, no immediate answer is the best one. When I choose my wiki user name I made "Ent" (as in the Tolkien creatures) the key part of it because I became (and remain) convinced that far too much inadvertent stress among editors is caused simply by folks being too hasty. NE Ent 21:35, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

If I post "Thank you for your kind guidance" would you take that as snark? I hope not, because I do, in fact, thank you for your kind guidance.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

No, of course not ;) You're welcome. NE Ent 21:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Ah, the curse of the missing vocal cues. Typed text is missing so much context that it is extremely open to interpretation/misinterpretation, and it IS easy to project your own attitudes/expectations into the underlying meaning. I find it is always best to first assume the positive attitude unless proven otherwise. I definitely would not have interpreted I wish you well. as Don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out. but rather I am sad that you feel you have to leave. Nyth83 (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

When someone posts something heavily sarcastic on your talk page the best thing to do is to wish them well. How else do you respond? Launch a personal attack? That is not wise. --Mrjulesd (talk) 22:23, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

All this thread does is serve further to exemplify why it is that the best thing Jimbo could do here at en-WP is in fact refrain from doing or saying anything. Like it or loathe it, the "god-king" status has an impact that is more often than not disproportionate to what ever the event may be. I wouldn't wish the situation on anyone but it is the situation and, sorry, many of comments that you (Jimbo) make seem to my mind to be inflammatory, patronising, "civilly" insulting or, yes, politely snarky. Perhaps I can get away with that and, yes, I've done worse but we are not equal and it takes a whole room of smoke and mirrors to make out that we are. Work behind the scenes through WMF and perhaps reposition yourself at meta where, coincidentally, by doing so you would perhaps remove a fair amount of perceived systemic bias given your global status. People who talk of the likes of Eric Corbett being something of a protected species are missing the elephant in the room. - Sitush (talk) 01:27, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for Jimbo, but if I were in his position I would consider it an obligation to enforce the integrity of wikipedia in extreme cases like this, in spite of any disproportionate controversy that may possibly result from my actions. This seemed like a clear cut case of administrator abuse to me (I'm a centrist; no bias accusations please). Most of the small handful of people who know about this controversy will forget about it within a week or month. The article, on the other hand, would be lost forever; the knowledge therein stolen from innumerable potential readers. Think of the bigger picture, and moreover, consider these overreactions and what they implicate. LokiiT (talk) 02:55, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I feel that Jimbo has the right to edit WP appropriately, but people unhappy about his actions should not approach him in this manner. I know it is easy to get over-emotional when dealing with Wikipedia, but generally this hinders the process rather than helping. ----Mrjulesd (talk) 14:52, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Rgloucester I really don't understand why this is so upsetting to you. Is extending the discussion of a merge beyond one month for an article that is over 8 years old on a topic that is probably older than most of us really so insulting to you? Why do you believe your actions are above reproach? Do you believe that your actions are in the name of some greater good? So maybe you feel slighted by the work you put in being undone, but did you think about all of the work that you were undoing when you pushed for and put into action the redirect? Do you also believe that actions an admin makes are not up for further discussion?

And another thing. Any negative connotation that is "felt" in Jimbo's comment is purely the assertion of the prejudgement of the individual reader. Any non-involved person would see that as not only a neutral statement, but as a very standard, if not cliche neutral statement. It seems there's a lot of sentiment against Jimbo here just for the reason to be against him. TyTyMang (talk) 02:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

" Any non-involved person would see..." Hmm. That could well be taken as a slap at anyone who in good faith wondered if Jimbo might be getting in a little dig, but then saw his explanation. See how easily such misunderstandings can arise?

The site's emphasis on superficial politeness has raised unctuous dissembling to an art form. We've all seen lots of comments where people got in their well-crafted (but very polite!) sarcastic remarks, twisting the knife by concluding with "cheers" or the like. It's so common that one can hardly blame people for seeing it even when it's not intended.

To me the ongoing corrosiveness of such discourse is a much more important issue than using bad words or occasional name-calling. (Which is more admirable in a way, because it's at least honest.) I have no idea how we can solve it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:34, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I never edited Wikipedia, but someone really just needs to make the point that the cultural marxism article is a full 7 years older than the one they wanted to merge it into. In theory the merger should be in the opposite direction if it had to happen.Also the conspiracy theory article is only like a year old and was originally suggested to be merged back into the frankfurt school article.https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School_conspiracy_theory Wikipedia is not the place for RGloucester agenda, especially when cultural marxist and cultural marxism were terms coined by marxists and are used in academic papers discussing the subject to this day. The assertion that because he is a marxist he is the sole authority on the matter is as ridiculous as a self described national socialist trying to edit and delete the neo-nazi page. I believe RGloucester should be barred from editing on the subject any further, I would also like to thank Jimbo wales for how he handled thisJust needed to be said (talk) 12:38, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't have an "agenda". In fact, it is clear that the people with agenda are elsewhere. You will not find the term "Cultural Marxism" referring to any school of thought, in any scholarly journals. You may find "cultural Marxism" as a descriptive phrase, however, that phrase does not describe a school of thought. Instead, we have people who are conflating 21st century American liberalism with 1930s Marxism, and they are failing at it. The Frankfurt School, for example, is known in mainstream scholarship for their critique of pop culture, which they as manufactured, and the media, which the mass media, which they viewed as capitalist instruments of ideological control. To quote Mr Adorno and Mr Horkheimer in their Dialectic of Enlightenment, which has been mentioned:

The ruthless unity in the culture industry is evidence of what will happen in politics. Marked differentiations such as those of A and B films, or of stories in magazines in different price ranges, depend not so much on subject matter as on classifying, organising, and labelling consumers. Something is provided for all so that none may escape; the distinctions are emphasised and extended. The public is catered for with a hierarchical range of mass-produced products of varying quality, thus advancing the rule of complete quantification. Everybody must behave (as if spontaneously) in accordance with his previously determined and indexed level, and choose the category of mass product turned out for his type. Consumers appear as statistics on research organisation charts, and are divided by income groups into red, green, and blue areas; the technique is that used for any type of propaganda.

— Adorno and Horkheimer

In other words, for Horkheimer and Adorno, mass media is a system whereby the liberal ruling class enforces a balkanisation of the proletariat into different ethnic, racial, religious categories. These categories are used to create markets for goods, which are then target at each individual market demographic. The media provides "something for all so that none may escape", meaning that it creates endless categories, and that if one doesn't adhere to the category that one is placed in, the result will be that one won't be able to access the goods one needs.

This is facilitated by screen media, because it presents an image of a liveness, without any indication of its origin. When one watches a film or a television programme, what is behind the screen? Where did this picture or programme come from? How was it made? Merely from looking at the screen, one cannot tell. This is because film naturally hides the nature of its construction. It compresses days of filming into one hour. It only allows one perspective, that of the camera, meaning that one can never see what is behind the camera. And who, of course, is behind the camera? As we know, it is the market-driven ruling class who desires nothing more than to sell its goods to the demographised proletariat. As Walter Benjamin says, the "aura" of the work is lost. Its historical existence, the material circumstances of its creation, they disappear. Unlike with a painting, where one can see the brushstrokes, see the blending of pigment, with a film, one can never access the material circumstances of the original. The television programme or film or radio programme is separate from its material reality, concealing, unlike a painting, its origin.

The culture industry seeks to enforce liberal conformism through balkanisation. Dividing people into artificial categories, through market demographisation, facilitates the continued dominance of the ruling class, and also the fracturing of the identities of humans. Something is provided for all so that none can escape. One must be part of a category, however artificial, for if one isn't, if one is merely a human, one is of no use to the ruling class. In this, the Frankfurt School stands diametrically opposed to "multiculturalism", and to "political correctness". For them, this rigid balkanisation of conformity is the worst possible end result, because it makes revolution nigh impossible, as Benjamin wrote. This is the danger of mechanical reproduction of media. We've now moved into digital reproduction, and this is all the more dangerous. Regardless, for Marxists, especially for the Frankfurt School, ethnic, religious, gender, racial distinctions are constructed by the ruling class to support their material interests. Marxists do not believe in using these identities, which are viewed as false. Multiculturalism cannot be supported, because it posits an acceptance of a balkanised proletariat dominated by a capitalist media.

This is what mainstream scholarship says on the subject, and this is what the Frankfurt School themselves say. There is no overarching school of "Cultural Marxism" that spans the large part of the 20th century, and links multiple theorists who never even met each other. There is a descriptive phrase "cultural Marxism", which is merely descriptive. It has fallen largely out of use in recent years, and was never a common classification. It simply means "Marxism as applied to culture". It does not imply a school of thought, a unified ideology, or even a linkage between the different theorists. It is a broad descriptive phrase, similar to the phrase "political Islam". That phrase does not imply a school of thought. It only implies "Islam as applied to politics". There are many different theorists and varieties of "Islam applied to politics". They are not inherently linked by anything other than that they deal with politics and Islam. For this reason, this whole debacle is reminiscent of the now gone Jews and Communism article. Spurious linkages of anything a Jew has ever said on communism do not make an article. Likewise, spurious linkages of anything a Marxist has said on culture does not make an article. There is no school of thought called "Cultural Marxism". The "Frankfurt School" has no resemblance to the conspiracy theory. However, people with no sense of verification or who do not actually read any book they cite as using the phrase "cultural Marxism" will synthesise the conspiracy with descriptive uses of "cultural Marxism" to posit a legitimate school of thought. If one falls into that trap, that's one's fault. RGloucester — ☎ 15:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I saw advertisment

Is it some kind of advertisment in all pages of wikiquote? Ochilov (talk) 20:39, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

What did you see? I don't see anything unusual there. There have been reports of a virus which inserts advertisements into Wikipedia pages, maybe you saw a variant of that?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:44, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Maybe this. I just out of my home and I can't be sure about viruses. Ochilov (talk) 20:45, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Jimbo, I can't see anything unusual there. What did you think was unusual @Ochilov:?--5 albert square (talk) 20:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Somebody told me on my discussion page, that it was green userbox advertisment. Ochilov (talk) 08:56, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I've read the post on your talk page now, I've looked at the page you posted above and I'm still not seeing what you're seeing. I suspect you may have malware or a virus on your computer. I suggest running an anti-virus check etc--5 albert square (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Observation

I prefer to stay out of the politics of Wikipedia as much as possible as bureaucracy gives me a headache, but I thought I should contact you regarding something which occurred to me lately. It seems that sometimes, "controversies" arise surrounding massive edits of certain pages or outright deletion/merges and the answer to this is usually that there has been a "long discussion" concerning the subject ergo the changes are supposedly justified. However, this seems fallacious to me; the people most likely to enter the discussion are those who are unsatisfied with the article and thus are demanding sweeping changes to it. The people opposed to such changes, meanwhile, usually remain unaware that there is a "discussion" on the article's content until it is quite too late since they don't see a need to check on the talk page of an article they are satisfied with (or even check regularly on the article). Therefore, the "discussion" is likely one sided, especially when people are trying to drive narratives instead of exposing facts. Let me explain my overly wordy thoughts with a dumbed down example:

Imagine you have an article on dogs. Dogs see the article on dogs and think "This is okay." and don't visit it again or go to the talk page. Cats see the article and think "This article fails to mention that dogs are evil!", head to the talk page and begin a "discussion" on what the "Dogs" article should be which lasts several days. Meanwhile, dogs remain blissfully unaware that there is an apparent controversy on the "dogs" article. So eventually, cats create their own article on dogs and replace the article with their version, "dogs: slobbery demons". Now dogs notice it and are opposed to it, to which the cats reply "We discussed it for several days" and start requesting protection and sanctions and what not, claiming that the dogs are "biased" and that they "refused" to engage in discussion.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that many articles, especially on politically, philosophically, morally or religiously charged topics, will get targeted by people trying to give them a slant and legitimizing their actions through "dummy" discussions. To me this seems like a case of what you call "WP: GAME" to try and make biased articles seem to be the result of legitimate discussions on their content. How to fix this is beyond me; placing tags on the article's header is quite frankly ineffective yet it seems to be the only way to do it at this point. Of course, this is a difficulty to be expected with a popular enterprise such as Wikipedia; the people who get deeply involved in it represent only a tiny fraction of the people using it. Yet I do believe there could be improvements on this front. Akesgeroth (talk) 23:24, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I Completely agree with Akesgeroth. I've seen so much WP:Game lately that I felt compelled to register and become active on WP. Hopefully my newness won't have an impact on the validity of my points. One of the more concerning maters I've seen recently is the self perceived infallibility of some of the Admins, as seen in the topic directly above this one regarding Cultural Marxism. If the admin in that situation was truly WP:Neutral the reversal of the merge wouldn't have been an issue, much less the tantrum that ensued. This also shows another problem, an admin has the power to make sweeping changes on a whim. Or more specifically, a bureaucratically maneuvered whim. The controversy over the Cultural Marxism merge fortunately brought about the attention to reopen discussion, but how many other articles have been impacted quietly? Just as I have done over the last decade, the overwhelmingly vast majority browsing WP aren't going to invest the effort to push for an article's correction. Especially when they discover the extensive bureaucratic process for making changes.

Jimbo, I know that you do like to be neutral about most everything, but doing your own research doesn't make you biased. In fact sometimes it requires you do this to really know if an article is represented neutrally and correctly. I would really appreciate if more of the admins/arbitrators/founder..(s) would do their own independent research regarding some of the more controversial topics. In a recent controversial topic, the position I have taken has been grossly misrepresented. The problem with this particular topic is the fact that the media at large is involved in the controversy/conspiracy. So all the so called WP:RS are really too biased to be reliable. It's very similar to the analogy that Akesgeroth used where the cats paint the picture of all dogs being "slobbery demons." But the dogs can't refute the claim because all of the "Reliable" sources are written by cats and all of the sources written by dogs are deemed "unreliable" by cats. In a case like this where sourcing guidelines fail, what should be the right course of action to take? Here are some options: Leave the unbalanced article up, form special-case RS guidelines, take down the article until the conflict dies down enough to have a neutral discussion. Whatever the case, I feel it is a little unfair for one group to be able to label another without the labeled group being able to properly defend itself.TyTyMang (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

We are often too quick to assume that media sources are reliable for more than the fact that their respective authors have the opinions expressed in them. Straight news reporting from reputable agencies or prestigious newsrooms is one thing, and it's generally quite reliable, but some topics are mainly covered in op-eds, editorials, blog posts, and the like. Even if these tend to take a predominant line on some matter of cultural, philosophical, or political dispute, that does not mean that there is the equivalent of a settled scholarly or scientific consensus. If someone's view on such an issue diverges from a predominant line represented in the media, that does not make it the equivalent of fringe science or pseudoscience, where the divergence is from a robust scientific consensus.

An unpopular or minority viewpoint on a matter of genuine cultural, philosophical, or political debate is not analogous to, say, Intelligent Design or Holocaust denial; and policies aimed at protecting Wikipedia from getting clogged up with the viewpoints of, say, Holocaust denialists, where there is a clear scholarly consensus based on mountains of physical, documentary, and testimonial evidence, should not be used to insist on favoring what might, at a particular time, be a popular view with commentators on, say, a current political debate. As long as we all keep this in mind, the problem should be reduced.

As I said on the talk page for the Cultural Marxism page, we should also consider stepping away from articles on topics that push our political and emotional buttons. Any time I feel I am striking a blow in some culture war by my edits to a Wikipedia article, I am likely making it harder for Wikipedia to have a neutral, properly informative article. Metamagician3000 (talk) 02:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I too am in full agreement with the observations and views expressed in this section. We should not be replacing articles about Dogs with articles about the Dogs' conspiracy theory. I remind registered editors that the Arbitration Committee elections are closing later today, so remember to vote ASAP. Regards, Wbm1058 (talk) 14:12, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Gaming the system has become normal and not limited to editing-for-money but includes political influences as well. We all heard of big media reports on CIA, Vatican and other political interests having been exposed for making extensive edits. The intelligence community has pretty much overran Wikipedia since 2002-2003, when retired military/intelligence personnel were hired by different governments as part-time editors. (The Israeli Information Ministry has an entire division that hires multilingual students for that purpose so they can cover Wikipedias in various languages even). They soon created a "brotherhood" where each editor is just one text/phone call away. Naturally for geometric progression, they soon started supporting each other's nomination for adminships, and the rest is history as they say. Here is one such staggering example of Dutch intelligence/paid interests' abuse of Wikipedia: the main article (as they lack manpower so they have to stay focused on main articles) on Bosnia and Herzegovina states its regime as a republic though its own Constitution in Article I.1 says it's not a republic any more! Now that's how Wikipedia can and indeed has become a tool for advancing even geopolitical agendas, not just political or financial interests as noted by others. This is highlighted by the fact that the above example (thread) has been censored from this very Talk page of Jimbo Wales. So it's safe to assume for all practical purposes that Wikipedia has been hijacked by political and financial interests. 109.81.210.151 (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. Per Wikipedia:Banning policy § Appeal of Arbitration Committee decision, Any arbitration decision may be appealed to Jimbo Wales. While it is not unusual for him to consider an appeal, it is exceedingly unusual for him to overturn such a decision. An appeal should be lodged at his user talk page within one week of the ArbCom decision. This is an English Wikipedia policy. Yet the next edit, within the same minute, by an editor who is !not Jimbo, reverted this appeal which is supported by policy. Shouldn't we wait for Jimbo to rule on the appeal, or was this a re-posting of an appeal that Jimbo had previously ruled on? Wbm1058 (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I think this is important to get right. An appeal to Jimbo was filed, per policy, see here. I see something of an edit war over this appeal. Some of the reverting edit summaries are labeling the appeal as vandalism. Wow, that edit war is going on for a long time, we are way past WP:3RR territory. An argument is made, if you go back far enough to look, "as a banned user you do not have the right to post to any page". This seems to me to be against policy. The ban was an ArbCom decision and policy clearly states that any such decision may be appealed to Jimbo. Can anyone provide me with a link to Jimbo's ruling on this appeal? Wbm1058 (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Akesgeroth, my reply has three parts. (1) If a controversial article is important to you, then you may wish to have it on your watchlist. (2) Abiogenesis and macroevolution are emotionally appealing to humans (including scientists) who wish to avoid responsibility to a Creator. Each one of us can make an impartial examination of the evidence. (Proverbs 2:4) (3) Some media outlets refer to Santa Claus as a real person. (John 12:43)

—Wavelength (talk) 16:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	For supporting neutrality in not redirecting the "Cultural Marxism" page. Supremebeanie (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi

Hey there. :-)
Black Quarterback (talk) 01:29, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Hi @Black Quarterback:

A belated welcome to Wikipedia!

What can we do for you?--5 albert square (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Nothing, just saying hi!

Black Quarterback (talk) 02:12, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

I never realized how active you were in the community, I wish you luck and here's a cup of joe to help relieve some stress. Bugboy52.4 ¦ =-= 16:57, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Trout

It being award Jimbo time:

Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

Please give your opinion and reasons with citations for reverting a close. "More discussion" isn't a good reason in itself. You should try, at least, to answer the question, why Wikipedia should have an article at that title ["Cultural Marxism"] when apparently no encyclopedia does. "No deadline" applies to you too - take your time to educate yourself - the article history is not going anywhere. You may share this with RGloucester because they should not have participated and closed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps the better question to ask, is why Wikipedia should have an article at the title ["Frankfurt School conspiracy theory"]. Does any encyclopedia have an article at that title either? Wbm1058 (talk) 17:43, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

That's not a better question, that's a different question - and one does not answer a question with a question. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:49, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Ultimately, if I were making the decisions around here, we would have neither. However, this depends on how we view Wikipedia on a conceptual level. I can see arguments for inclusion of such an article on the conspiracy theory, as it is true that the conspiracy theory has been discussed in reliable sources. However, I'm not sure we should be giving air to such theories. RGloucester — ☎ 17:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

"Neither" may be a reasonable option. Maybe both should be forked off to a new project, "Wikiblog" or "Wikieditorials". – Wbm1058 (talk) 18:00, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps he noticed that a self-described cultural marxist was trying to drag that hateful ideology back into the shadows and keep normal people from learning about it, and decided that Wikipedia's ability to be used as a source of information should not be compromised by people trying to push an agenda - such as marxists. 76.10.142.66 (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I would have also considered reverting the close. RGloucester was heavily involved in the discussion, and then, in spite of a seemingly close decision, was also the one who closed it. It needed to be closed by someone uninvolved in the discussion. If there were no complaints this could be left as a questionable call that didn't do any harm, but when people start complaining about the decision it makes sense to revisit it and try for an independent close. I'm not sure that Jimbo should have been the one to reopen it, but that's more a political issue - I'm concerned about how things will now go if the final decision is to reinstate the redirect. But that's a problem for later. - Bilby (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Then an administrator should have closed the original Merge discussion and evaluated the discussion. Which was open for more than a month. The consensus was obvious, based on policy and reliable sourcing and not !votes. What should not have been done was unilateral reverting the page when it was protected, and declaring a 'new' discussion was needed. What is wrong with the already present month long discussion? Do you call what has happened on the page since Jimbo's actions to be in the best interests of the project? Have you read the so-called discussion that has ensued? It should be an embarrassment, in truth. But that's just my opinion. Dave Dial (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

I just want to add, are Admins supposed to ignore all the off-site canvassing? Or what's the policy with that issue concerning Merge and AfD discussions? Dave Dial (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Admins revert closes all the time. An admin's ability to close a discussion is not a final word on the subject. If one does not treat their decisions as sacred then they will not be so upset when they get reverted. Editing on a wiki = getting reverted sometimes, even for admins. This is being made a big deal of exactly because it is Jimbo. Chillum 21:11, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

To Jimbo

Jimbo, I wish you would stop supporting off-wiki canvassing groups. You're the one in the wrong here and you're making the wiki worse by involving yourself with them. You seem to care more about the "image of Wikipedia" than the neutrality of Wikipedia, its mission, and its editors. Silverseren^C 19:15, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

• Jimbo has shown he just doesn't care. He sees reddit boards criticizing Wikipedia, skims through the Merge discussion and thinks because some editors have a mistaken concept of reality that he is right to discount over a month of discussions by long time editors who have had to deal with flocks of SPAs and anon IPs sent from off-site fringe groups. Like Stormfront here and here. Or the Stormfront 4/8channers at /pol/ here(I guess 4chan is blacklisted, so archived page). And of course the reddit groups here, here, here and here. Which, of course, has led to dozens of SPAs and anon IPs flooding the 'discussion' Jimbo has initiated. Great job Jimbo, I am sure you are hero to at least those people. Dave Dial (talk) 20:00, 7 December 2014 (UTC)