User talk:Jimbo Wales

Editing environment getting better?

I think there are at least two worlds of Wikipedia regarding the question posed in a previous section, "Is Wikipedia getting better?". One is the reader's world, where the content of the encyclopedia is the consideration. This is the world that has been discussed in a previous section. Another is the world of the editors, where the editing environment is important.

Is the Wikipedia editing environment getting better? --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

This will depend on the particular constellation of articles and personalities that each editor deals with. I think it reached a trough a few years ago and has improved slightly (or at least not deteriorated) since. Or maybe I've just gotten used to all the bullshit. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• In 2006, when I first started editing, there was a completely different atmosphere in most of Wikipedia. There were literally hundreds of editors who would roam around and try to help newbie or other editors format their inputs correctly, correct minor problems in random articles, and cooperate in a collegial manner in the different wiki-projects. There were some exceptions of course, notably in some of the environmental, political, scientology, and Israel-Palestine articles. However, hardly any of that altruistic cooperation takes place anymore. Now, if a newbie editor makes a mistake in editing an article, it usually either gets reverted or stays broken. If you leave a notice on a wiki-project talk page or admin notice board asking for help, half the time or more it goes unanswered. The Featured Article and other article improvement forums (like DYK) now get much less attention and participation than they used to. WP is now, for the most part, a colder, bleaker place to edit. Cla68 (talk) 01:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Given your extensive block log for a variety of unpleasant behaviors, you may wish to reflect on how you may have personally been a part of helping to make your own experience of Wikipedia "colder and bleaker".--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

My experience is that sometimes Cla68 himself makes editing Wikipedia an extremely unpleasant experience for other editors. I would assume that his extensive block log is an indication that my experience with Cla68 is not unique. Bill Huffman (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Any curious onlookers who would be interested in "who is this Bill Huffman, and what does he represent to the Wikipedia community", would be advised to see this discussion that probably explains why he is so angry at Cla68 -- Cla68 was largely responsible for pointing out that Huffman was abusing multiple accounts on Wikipedia in order to push his personal agenda, leading to his "retirement", although how "retired" has he really been? Anyway, chalk up Jimmy on the same side as a multi-account abuser, aligned against a nearly decade-long worker on outstanding content. - BajorRules (talk) 23:46, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd feel a lot more sympathy for @Cla68:'s grievances, which I see go back centuries, if not for the fact that he 1) invoked the media in an attempt to intimidate other editors, and 2) he is a paid editor who was advertising for work on his user page, taking down the notice a week ago because he "doesn't have time to do this anymore," and I don't see any disclosure of employers. I've asked him who he's worked for[1] and in response I hear crickets. Coretheapple (talk) 13:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I encourage everyone involved with WP to edit or admin for pay, because it has become obvious that spending volunteer time to try to improve this project for altruistic reasons is for suckers. In 2006/2007 Jimbo and I had a very frank discussion over email about how this project's administration was not living up to expectations. He has failed, to say the least, to exercise any effective leadership since to rectify it. Cla68 (talk) 22:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Cla68: Why won't you disclose the names of the people who have paid you for your work and the articles in which you have made paid contributions? The Terms of Use require disclosure of employers, and I'm not seeing that. Have I missed it? I think you'd have more credibility if you didn't have such a cavalier attitude toward your own personal conduct. Or maybe not, because yes, you do have quite an immense block record. Coretheapple (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo's and Bill Huffman's posts exemplify the problem. Cla68's post is not aggressive, uncivil or inappropriate. It is an informed response to a legitimate question. But Jimbo and Bill Huffman have not responded to the post on its merits but used it as an opportunity to attack Cla68. And even that is a beat up, Cla68 has been blocked for a few months over an eight year editing history. And as we all know some admin, like some police, use their powers to bully and intimidate. Shame on Jimbo and Bill Huffman, they do know better but they don't care.MOMENTO (talk) 01:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy and Bill are in the right of it, in my recent experience, given just this horseshit comment at ArbCom which was subsequently partially redacted by the ArbCom clerk. Given the block record, and based on that diff and the posturing, sanctimonious comment by Cla above, I urge an immediate indef block of Cla68. Enough is enough, for cryin' out loud. And bravo to Jimmy and Bill for telling it like it is! Jusdafax 15:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Notice, journalists who are watching this page, that my statement was responded to with ad hominem responses instead of addressing the substance of my argument. Cla68 (talk) 00:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec - note the comment above has been refactored) Cla68, given your above-cited, partially redacted bad faith ArbCom comment, found to be a "personal attack" by the ArbCom clerk, your original statement above is revealed for what you accuse other editors of: trolling. Obvious to anyone, journalist or not, is the fact that you fail to address the "uncomfortable truth" regarding the substance of my diff. And now, your attempt to hold editors here hostage to "journalists who are watching this page" is breathtaking in audacity in and scope; you seemingly expect us to fear you on this basis. I again call on an admin to indef block you at once as you have patently exhausted the patience of both Jimmy and the community. Note to those with the flag: does it get any clearer than this? Jusdafax 00:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Back to my original point, as anyone can see from the list of Featured Articles on my user page, I used to be heavy kool-aid drinker on WP. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. The Battle of the Coral Sea article, for example, took me about 50 hours of work, at least, to get done. I even took vacation time from work to complete it. I've gradually become disillusioned with WP over time as I explained above. It's just not a pleasant place anymore and the response to my original post in this thread helps drive home that point better than anything else I could have said. Cla68 (talk) 00:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Cla68, So why are you still here? By the way, calling current editors Wikipediots while complaining about ad hominem attacks doesn't present a compelling argument. NE Ent 01:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe you mean that criticizing others for using ad hominems while using them myself doesn't constitute a compelling argument that ad hominems are wrong? If so, you're right. However, it still doesn't change the fact that they didn't address my original argument. So, since they didn't, I could respond to them however I wanted to because they handn't yet made a logical counter-argument. If they respond with something other than a logical fallacy, which Wikipedians, in my experience, have a hard time doing, then I could respond with a logical response myself. I'm still waiting... Cla68 (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

You didn't present an argument. You presented your opinion which is "correct" is the sense that it's your opinion, but there's no particular reason to believe it correct or universal. The current magic words indicate {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}} 121,176 {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} 6,825,215 {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} 859; what that indicates to me is the scope of Wikipedia exceeds any individuals ability to grok. Your Wikipedia is different that my Wikipedia is different than Jimbo's. It's unclear what exactly you are waiting for; it's been my experience that unnecessarily insulting and disparging people and the institutions they believe is unlikely to get any reasonably positive response; in other words, what goal are you trying to achieve by posting here? NE Ent 02:32, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, rereading Jimbo's response, it looks like he's saying to me, "You're right but it's your fault." Cla68 (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

"Journalists who are watching this page"? Seriously? Coretheapple (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Jusdafax, it's a general wiki to rule to render unto arbcom what is arbcom's. Given a clerk as already refactored Cla68's comment, it's highly unlikely an administrator is going to indef them in response to a posting here, and very likely such a block would be flipped. In theory, you could argue for a site ban at WP:AN, but that's highly unlikely to happen, too. Best to move on. NE Ent 01:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Well FA and DYK are get less attention in part because they have become little walled gardens of people competing for 'credit', toxic environments where the goal is to get more points than the opponent. Offputting for someone who is collaborative rather than competitive. The point of a FA or a DYK appearing should be that the article itself has improved or is of a high standard, not who gets the credit. The previous promotion issues and ongoing quality problems at DYK illustrate this the most. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't comment on what Wikipedia was like a few years ago. The impression I get now is that when an established editor makes a mistake or unintentionally gets into a dispute, bad faith is often assumed and they are treated in a rude and uncivil manner, regardless of how tiny or innocent their mistakes were. It seems that editors are more likely to be polite and civil towards newbies who have just written an article advertising their cat, when in fact being polite and civil should be applied universally. --Rubbish computer 10:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Having been editing Wikipedia for about 10 years, I've seen a number of changes. But I don't think a decline in the environment for editors is one of them. I have noticed that most people who complain about a growing toxic environment around here are editors who spend more of their time participating in various dramas than in actual editing of articles. Deli nk (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:22, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Deli nk:I guess you weren't talking to me, but I wouldn't say it's gotten worse, as I wouldn't know. Apologies if I sound like I'm moaning in my above post. Rubbish computer 13:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I was making a general comment in response to the original "Is the Wikipedia editing environment getting better?" question. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about you or your comment. Deli nk (talk) 14:55, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Deli nk:It's fine, I didn't think you were, anyway. Rubbish computer 15:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I would like to comment on the extent to which those holding preconceived biases are unwilling to rationally survey the reliable sources as opposed to accusing others of misconduct. I have been accused of misrepresenting a body of literature as conclusive simply because I was unaware of an inconclusive reliable source from several years ago. I hope as a community we are able to grow into a nurturing, caring, polite group instead of remaining bogged down in accusatory urges. EllenCT (talk) 13:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Some things are definitely better. Edits save faster, the wikilove feature means that lots of people now thank me for fixing typos where once I wondered if anyone noticed; I can upload fifty photos on commons more easily than I used to be able to upload ten. Vandalfighting bots and edit filters have reduced the amount of vandalism that requires manual intervention. But not everything is positive. The tension between the WMF and the rest of the community in the last four years or so seems far worse than it did before. There are also tensions within the volunteer community. Template bombing has replaced much of the collaboration. Revert unsourced has largely replaced <citation needed>. Spam is rising, possibly in proportion to our audience size. There is a growing wikigeneration gulf between the admins and those who started editing in the last four or five years. ϢereSpielChequers 14:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

"Revert unsourced has largely replaced <citation needed>." I've noticed this as well. Is that a reflection of a more confrontational editing environment, less tolerance towards unsourced material appearing in articles, a recognition that a cn tag is likely to stay there until the material is removed in the future, or something else? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

As an administrator that regularly patrols AIV, I've noticed a significant increase in reports (inappropriate in my opinion) there for editors whose only offense is adding unsourced content. I'm concerned that too many regular editors are starting to view unreferenced content as vandalism. -- Ed (Edgar181) 17:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

While I seldom revert for anything not obviously out of whack I do have pretty strong opinions on unsourced content. Wikipedia is a reference work and few of us are subject matter experts in all of the areas which we edit. If there is not a source or reference there is no way to vet the material for accuracy and Wikipedia is useful only in relation to its reliability. We teach Bold, Revert, Discuss and that is what the bulk of editors will do if they have doubts. The person who is adding the material should be able to come up with a good source if asked. If they can not then, well.... the material should not be in Wikipedia per WP:V. Whether this process makes the editing environment better or worse depends on how willing editors are to engage with each other.

Since most drama comes when people are discussing whether the sourcing is adequate and there is more than enough drama dealing with that. My guess is after engaging repeatedly on WP:RS most editors are likely to be disinclined to engage in extensive conversation when there are no sources. Jbh^Talk 18:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

The BRD essay itself says: "BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reverts will happen" and WP:Reverting says: "revert vandalism on sight, but revert an edit made in good faith only after careful consideration", (emphasis mine). To habitually revert non-contentious content by removing the content instead of requesting a citation fails the "fundamental principle" of assuming that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith, and places the cart before the horse by answering a Bold edit with a revert in cases where another Bold edit, often called WP:SOFIXIT, is the better practice. It is tantamount to "a lazy mans load" with regard to building encyclopedic content; making the latter much harder to achieve while belying the good counsel of the aforementioned which wholly encourages an opposite approach as better, indeed even easier. Consider what would likely have come of this content if I had not observed the edit on my watchlist, Gave the answer I believe our guidelines suggest, and followed through with a demonstration of how nicely our best practices conform with our goals. If my interpretation here is wrong, I hope to have made the best of my error. Cheers, and do correct me now.--John Cline (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the issue of reverting unsourced info on sight is one we are going to have to resolve with an RFC. While I have a preference for the old citation needed tag, moving to either extreme would be better than the current mess. It simply isn't fair on the thousands of newbies who are bitten because our de facto rules on sourcing are stricter than our published ones. ϢereSpielChequers 23:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I guess I made the assumption of a) seeing if the edit made sense based on your knowledge of the subject b) seeing if you could source it yourself c) assessing the editor who made the edit as well as how well the material was written (proper English, proper use of subject specific terms etc) and whether it had been integrated into the text of the article in a way that showed the person who put it there had a clue about the subject. All of those things should go into figuring out whether you revert. In the end you must decide whether you think the new material a benefit to the article, if you do not think it is based on what you know and can find out or if you do not have a clue to make the judgement. If you both have a clue about the subject matter and are not convinced the edit is beneficial you should probably revert. If you are familiar with the editor who made the edit you review or you know they are a regular contributor to the content area it is best to ask about it rather than revert.

However, most of the time unsourced material is not added by well established editors familiar with the topic area or by drive by subject matter experts. Most of the time it is added by POV pushers or new/inexperienced editors. Both of which might have something good to contribute. That is why you should engage them on a talk page to explain why you just reverted your edit. Or, if you are lazy, you can probably get a 80-90% 'right call' rate by simply reverting unsourced additions and that is my guess of why it happens so frequently. Jbh^Talk 00:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Just a dichotomy, eh? You were lucky! The decision process just got a tad more complicated. — not really here discuss 04:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Ed, I suspect AIV is used because ANI seems like overkill in many cases. The problem is particularly acute with TV shows and genre-warring, with editors ignoring all requests for sources and simply plowing on for weeks/months. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@NeilN: I know exactly what you're talking about. Those types of persistent, disruptive, uncommunicative editors should be reported to AIV or the targeted pages should be reported to RFPP. But lately I've seen cases that are not like that: a handful of unsourced, but good faith, edits is all it takes to get reported to AIV sometimes. That's where my concern lies. -- Ed (Edgar181) 13:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that there are some articles in which editors have a solid lock on the subject matter, and in which not just new editors but different points of view are treated with hostility. Once not long ago I was summoned by RfC bot to comment on an RfC as to whether a well-known deceased actor should have an infobox. I opined yes, Oh no! Heresy! I was immediately jumped and pounded down by the editors controlling the page. Then I noticed that the RfC was prematurely closed by one of the editors opposing the infobox! Now in such a situation I could either go to ANI or just get the hell out of there, and I chose to do so. I have no idea if this kind of situation is getting worse or better but yes, there are some "no go zones" in Wikipedia and I blundered into one there. Coretheapple (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

  That particular dumpster fire has been burning since at least 2007, and probably earlier, FWIW (with atrocities on both sides, as may be expected of anything that long-running). Choess (talk) 03:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

  It's by far the stupidest discussion I've ever encountered, and I've seen some bad ones. Coretheapple (talk) 15:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think it's got better in some respects. There is now a clear division of labour and governance between administrators and those who just want to contribute content (the usual culprits notwithstanding). The main respect in which it's got worse are the lack of content editors, at least in my area. I tried to make improvements to Free will when I returned, but it was just crickets. It's difficult to edit when there is no sounding board. Peter Damian (talk) 09:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so what you are really saying is that you need other editors to push back against your original edits in order to force you into making further edits to the Free will article. Hmmm, interesting. Very interesting. Hold on while I go and make some amendments to that Free will article ... — not really here discuss 01:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Peter Damian, The crickets may be a sign that other editors thought your work was acceptable and didn't need comment. Note the reverts of some of the other editors' contributions after your edits in May 2015. So there doesn't seem to be a shortage of editors there who will react if they don't think an edit is acceptable. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a facet of Wikipedia that can sometimes be a bit disconcerting. In the real world, if you do something in public - such as make an informal after-dinner speech, perform some party trick you have a reputation for performing, or just sing a Karaoke song - complete silence from your audience once you are done is usually a sign that you have completely bombed. Editing away on something all by yourself with no intervention from other editors tends to have the same emotional effect on you, even though you just gave a perfectly reasonable and logical reason for why "no news is most likely good news." The psychological effect of "Wikipedia crickets" (i.e., the possibility all your latest edits might be considered a total frost by others) is still very real despite it being in most cases quite illogical. But give me crickets over obnoxious confrontation anytime. — not really here discuss 01:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• I do notice that many people these days seem to be far too eager for admins to delete or block something (has it always been that way? I don't think UAA was swamped with frivolous reports back in 2013). It's almost as if people are trying to rack up as many points as they can. At UAA, nobody seems to pay any attention to the huge banner saying "Please limit your reports to obvious violations of the username policy." At CSD, people try to A7 articles over mere notability concerns. At AFD, nobody bothers to look for sources before nominating/voting delete. Do people really have to be slammed to the wall for minor policy violations?

Treatment of editors aside, content is improving. The wiki is always growing and most content is getting better, or at least not getting worse. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 21:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Attempt at an indicator

I made a rough attempt at determining the frequency of bad behavior in the English Wikipedia, using WP:ANI history. I looked at how long it took to accumulate 5000 edits at ANI recently and compared it to the time it took to accumulate 5000 edits at ANI 5 years ago, indexing it for the number of editors in the English Wikipedia then and now (i.e. dividing by the number of editors then and now.) The indexed edit rate at ANI looks roughly the same, suggesting that the amount of bad behavior by editors in the English Wikipedia is roughly the same today as it was 5 years ago. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I would say the would reflect upon how much of a dramafest ANI happens to be more than the health of Wikipedia itself. That board has a mind of its own. A better measurement may be how many long term editors are ceasing to edit in a given month, though that may be harder to measure. I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment. Chillum 14:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Re "I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment." – That apparently doesn't apply to long-term editors, otherwise they wouldn't be long-term.

Although most acts of bad behavior are not expected to result in an ANI discussion, a certain percentage should. Unless there is a specific reason to believe otherwise, it seems that the percentage would stay fixed over the years and thus the activity at ANI would be an indicator for the amount of bad behavior in Wikipedia. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

There are many specific reasons to believe otherwise, most obviously the deprecation of WP:RFC/U and the increasing tendency to create stand-alone subpages to discuss specific users or specific issues to avoid cluttering ANI—discussion of Betacommand, for instance, took place at WP:AN/B so won't show up in your count, but was a massive time-sink. From the former-arb perspective, I can say with absolute certainty that "I suspect that more people simply stop editing than start an ANI slugfest when they encounter a hostile work environment" applies to long-term editors as well; many people move on to a different topic area rather than stay and fight in a field which is attracting cranks. ‑ iridescent 15:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Although it's not clear whether that activity is significant compared to ANI activity, that would need to be addressed before ANI activity is used as an indicator. --Bob K31416 (talk) 20:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the link you gave, the increasing tendency to create stand-alone subpages to discuss specific users or specific issues – How would you show from it that there is an "increasing tendency to create stand-alone subpages to discuss specific users or specific issues"? Also for those subpages regarding specific users, would that essentially be a new place for the discussions that would have been conducted at WP:RFC/U and are no longer discussed there? If so, that wouldn't affect 5 year changes in activity at ANI. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Are conflicts good for retaining editors?

So far the discussion suggests that some editors leave Wikipedia because of the conflicts, etc. Is it possible that even more editors, including good editors, are retained because without the conflicts, etc., they would get bored and leave? --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Can you please define what is meant by "leaving Wikipedia"? An editor closing his/her account would clearly be leaving, but I seriously doubt that most of the "exiting editors" that are referred to in all the various studies actually do that. All those studies are usually also remiss in not defining what exactly it means to "exit Wikipedia" so I'm not on your particular case here. I'm just seeking some clarity of terminology. Is someone who regularly made edits every week, but who has now ceased to make any edits at all for a specified number of months (feel free to define the threshold of dormancy), considered to be an "exited editor"? Similarly, is someone who was a highly active editor for a long time who now only makes a few sporadic edits each month also considered to be an editor who has left? I don't think he/she would be, nevertheless there has to be a reason for the dramatic drop off in their editing.

Also, it might be useful to define the term "conflict". Because any edit someone does can be modified or reverted by someone else, Wikipedia is by definition an environment of potential "conflict". But that is an acceptable level of mild "conflict" that comes with the territory of doing any edits at all. It is not clear whether or not you are referring in your question to the level of "conflict" that arises over and above what is considered to be generally acceptable. Terms such as "hostile" and "toxic" are normally used to describe such situations. Assuming that you are, the problem now becomes, everyone has their own interpretation of where that threshold of general acceptable behavior lies. Furthermore, they will apply their own threshold level inconsistently in different situations. For instance, if I like someone I will probably apply a higher level of tolerance to their actions than I am willing to apply to someone I don't like nearly as much. Additionally, most of the "conflict" situations that arise can be traced back to two (or more) people interpreting some piece of vague Wikipedia guidance differently; or one of them not even being aware of the guidance's existence; or their being in a situation where there is no pertinent WP guidance, or the pertinent guidance is self-contradictory.

So given all those variables, one person's unacceptable level of "drama" and "confrontation" becomes another person's acceptable environment of constructive "intellectual disagreement" and "healthy discourse". Which, of course, goes to the heart of your question. The very things that drive some editors away may be highly addictive to the editors that remain. If that is the case then Wikipedia is doomed WRT to ever achieving its goal of recruiting an influx of new editors who have different interests and emphases to the current ones. — not really here discuss 03:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Debate is good. The growing problems on WP appears to be that some editors are becoming very skill at gaming the system. By the time a grievance comes to DR some gamers know how to turn round and make themselves look like the victim. The admins are left blinded by the muddy waters that the gamers are skilled at guiding them through -over that of the average Wikipeadian who doesn't Wikilawer. That leave conscious editors feeling dis-empowered and unappreciated. --Aspro (talk) 14:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Tweet

A little birdie chirped your name. Drmies (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Overseas threats to editors and how to deal with them

Your input, or, for that matter, damn near anyone working for the foundation, would be welcome at WP:ANI#Telstra, Australia IP vandalism. John Carter (talk) 15:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with those calling for a phone call to Telstra to seek their assistance in dealing with the problem. I also agree with blocking the entire ISP if that becomes necessary to get their attention, although I suspect that's not really going to be as effective as a phone call. I'd suggest that we do that (and threaten to go to the press, and go to the press if they still don't respond) only as a last resort. ISPs need to be responsible about cutting off customers who are engaging in massive abuse.

I think we might want to step back and reflect on the current process for handling such situations - they are rare, but there should be a clear and straightforward and accountable way for the community to escalate to Foundation staff.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

But *who* should call Telstra? The WMF? Or you? Or, are you leaving it all to me?? Huldra (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra As I said in a response on ANI contacting the ISP is definitely something that we are looking into as one of the options. We are definitely not leaving it just to you. I have found, however, that the victim also reporting can be very useful (it isn't an either/or thing and they sometimes take multiple reports or a report from a victim more seriously then from a 3rd party) and so would not only say that you reporting to Telstra could be useful but I'd also recommend that you report to your local law enforcement if you feel threatened so that they can make a report in their system either for investigation now or followup later if contacted by other authorities. Jalexander--WMF 19:34, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Jalexander-WMF Thank you for your reply, but I am *not* going to report this to my local police. As I have explained before: "Besides the fact that I live in a country where English is not any of our official languages (we have two), I am not an admin, and all threats are rev-delled. So, I could go to the police, and tell them that this is a rape threat against me and here they want to kill me, ...both comes from an IP at the other side of the world, writing in a foreign language (for my local police), ...and both edits are now over-sighted, so I´m sorry, they cannot see it! Yeah, sure. I would say I have a larger chance of winning jackpot in a lottery, than getting the police to act on such a report." In addition, it is the very good point User:SlimVirgin brings up: the fear of outing. "Huldra" is not an uncommon nick to use online (which is why I didn´t get a SUL-account until this spring), Now, it is bad enough living through abuse-edits like this, and this and this,....but how to you think I would feel if my RN was abused in the same fashion? And I second SlimVirgin´s question; why cannot *anyone* give me a clear answer: who will contact Telstra, and when? At the moment it looks like that "hot potato" everyone is quick to pass on. Huldra (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I can understand how it might be preferable to have police be contacted by the victim, who, honestly, probably is in general the best person to file police reports. But I can also understand that there might be a problem with the victim, in this case, not being able to present evidence. And the law in your country might not be able to be as protective of your real name than you might want. Personally, I might myself opt for an admin in Australia, or an editor in Australia with admin assistance, who can revdel the offending messages, going to their local police, maybe with copies or whatever of all the threats and, maybe, a complaint from you, maybe sent as a wikipedia e-mail, regarding the matter as the victim complaint. But, I honestly have no clue about international law and international crimes and all that rot. James might know better if such might be workable. John Carter (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

We certainly can not, and do not wish, to force anyone to report something they don't want to report. The WMF will always attempt to do whatever we're able to do to protect community members (and the public) whether they report or not however I do think it is important to point out that it is an incredible help and that it is not uncommon to face walls where police are unwilling to act without one. Both the WMF and the oversighters (and, where simple deletion is in question, administrators) are able to release copies of deleted information for abuse investigations to the victim, to the police and to 3rd parties where needed. I'm sorry Huldra, these types of attacks suck, and as someone whose had death threats for my Wikipedia work for more then a decade now (long before I was staff) I completely understand your frustration. I will certainly tell you that I'm looking at multiple angles to try and help (including the fact that I'm in the office now at 3pm on a Saturday looking into it) but I can't make you promises on when results will be shown and I can't tell you that I contacted [Telstra (or X)] at Y time and Z date. I know that's not what you want to hear but I don't do that for anyone and I can't do that here. As I've said before I think the likely hood of a physical threat is very small in this case but the reality of the large emotional toll and abuse that the constant attacks cause is very real. Sadly that makes it more difficult, law enforcement and ISPs are much more likely to respond to credible threats of physical violence but it is not impossible and we are doing everything we can to try and help. We've been successful doing so in the past and I am confidant that we can be successful doing so again, it isn't easy but it's important. Jalexander--WMF 22:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

John Carter Honestly for reports like that it really depends on not only the laws of the country in question but the responses of the local law enforcement. It's hard to make a blanket statement (it's one of the reasons we like to work through the FBI attache's in the embassy ourselves where possible because they know the local environment). Usually they are going to be more open to it if the victim is the local one coming to them but that certainly isn't always the case and it's often worth a try. Jalexander--WMF 22:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@Jalexander Is someone in the WMF keeping a log of the abuse from Telstra IPs? How many occurrences have there been this year? When was the last? Is anyone in the WMF considering restrictions on the Telstra IPs to prevent further abuse? Such restrictions would be unprecedented (I think), but it's time the WMF walked the walk on supporting the community. Johnuniq (talk) 02:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Very little of the Telstra IP abuse has been reported to the foundation (Huldra reported some of it a couple weeks ago and today we were pinged) so keeping a long running log has been difficult. That said a good portion of my Saturday was spent gathering a lot of that information (there is certainly much more that could likely be gathered, I'm mostly waiting to hear back from a couple reports to know what they'll need if anything more first) and taking actions in behind the scenes. I believe that the WMF has been walking the walk on supporting the community for quite some time and that support has ranged all over the map from legal funds to help community members fight long term abusers locally to global bans to criminal and civil action that the WMF supports directly to ISP reports and ISP action and much more. However, unfortunately, I can't sit here and list each case and what we tried to do and the results and I'll likely never be able too. Even in this case if the abuser was sent to a jail cell for years I'd never be able to publicly say anything (and at least some people would probably think the same person was doing other vandalism). I still wish we could do more as every case is still a resources balancing issue but It's a fight we've been winning and I think that the importance of supporting the community is becoming clearer and clearer to both the WMF leadership and the community.

Some of that started when CA (Community Advocacy) was part of LCA (Legal and Community Advocacy) and Geoff agreed to provide legal support for users who were sued and then we were allowed to consider Global Bans and help to investigate long term abuse (each of these cases taking 1-200 staff hours to fully investigate). Still at the time it had to me Philippe (who was also responsible for a lot more) and me (when I wasn't doing other work) along with a sporadic hours from other CAs. Now I'm the first Manager of Trust & Safety we've ever had, with my position less then a month old, and we hired a new staff member a couple months ago who has experience with both on and off line abuse and now reports to me spending the majority of her time helping with T&S investigations. Others in CA are also working on the question of online Harassment and how to deal with that both from the WMF standpoint and the community standpoint (Patrick is running that, you can see some of the initial research on meta but there will be more, including a community consultation and survey, later this year). There is a lot to do, but I'm optimistic that there is a knowledge that there is a lot to do now and that the resources and will to do that are slowly increasing. Re: restrictions on Telstra IPs I think those are significantly better to come from the community, we can help with the offline stuff (and occasionally some of the online stuff) but where editing is going to get locked down for large swaths I think the community usually needs to be the one who does that. I'll never rule something out but that's my default position. It wouldn't be completely un precedented (there have been a couple other LTAs which have gotten close either here or on other large wikis/globally) but is certainly very rare. Jalexander--WMF 07:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

As you know, the community has a significant number of editors who would never agree to any kind of restriction for a variety of reasons ranging from "not a problem, suck it up" to "liberty requires that all editing is open". I do not know how much abuse from those IPs has occurred, but if it were ongoing and could not be stopped after consultation with the ISP, the WMF needs to step up and resolve the situation with technical measures, and put up with the storm. Many of us do not like being part of a community where individuals can be picked off and harassed in the ways described. Obviously Telstra will ignore everyone and there are only two remedies: an IP restriction or a court order. The former would get Telstra's attention. The latter is not going to happen even if Huldra were to unwisely report the matter to her local police—unwisely because that would invite accidental disclosure of her personal details. Thank you for the explanations and the resource guide link. Johnuniq (talk) 08:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I am alarmed by this notion of blocking Telstra to try to force them to act against the vandal. Just a couple of weeks ago we were in very much the opposite position - saying that the Russians are crazy to block all of Wikipedia to try to force us to censor information about the production of charas. I feel like any precipitous action ("Wikipedia blocks much of Australia over a single editor") totally undercuts our position on anything like this. Though this is a matter of personal guesswork, I doubt a troll who threatens to rape or kill anyone who reverts him is even as much of a risk as an article about a kind of hashish (at least, not when it says some people mix it with tobacco, which is a dangerous drug) So are you going to make a personal apology to Putin and Roskomnadzor, admit that they hold the proper balance on human rights? God I hope not. So we should explore our alternatives - abuse filter alerts, a cadre of volunteer editors, people to explain and belittle his incessant threats, but not censoring Australia, and absolutely not appeals for prosecution [at least presuming there are no specific, plausible threats being made that actually put an editor in real fear for his well-being; unfortunately I cannot be fully informed here because everything is being deleted]. That country's censorship and surveillance of communications is a crime against humanity, and we should neither validate it nor become collaborators with it. Wnt (talk) 11:57, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

All multiple/long term threats of violence/death/rape are plausible until you can identify the person or group making those threats. There is no way to know if the offender is indeed in the same part of the world as their IP address is nor is it impossible for a person to travel if they are fixated on causing harm. Anonymity is the best defense for the victim at this stage so the idea presented earlier about going to the press to force Telestra 'deal with it' is misguided at best. In my, non-expert, opinion just range blocking all of Australia would be much preferable to the 2+ weeks trauma that has been caused to a known person who has been subject to this kind of attack many times not to mention the possibility of unwanted press attention because this is going on on Jimbo's talk page and it is a bit newsworthy that it took two weeks to get the foundation engaged in the matter.

If there must be a risk of news coverage let it be for Wikipedia blocking Australian IP editors to protect an editor from death/rape threats not about how it took two weeks to get the WMF engaged and how the problem is still on going. The first is arguably good press that focuses on the WMF the second is bad press that focuses on the victim and has a much greater chance of them being outed. Outing being the the worst possible outcome. Jbh^Talk 13:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

On ANI someone said that the vandal threatens essentially everybody who reverts him. A threat against the whole world isn't really a threat at all. This kind of random trolling is annoying, but if people stand together it doesn't have to be unbearable for any one person. But if the outcome here is to undermine Telstra's efforts to preserve whatever is left of the privacy of their customers, that is unbearable.

More to the point, if your administrative model depends on tracking down and punishing any poster anywhere who makes random threats, then you are locked into a model of universal, ceaseless, Orwellian panopticon. You might track down this vandal and find out he's accessing from libraries, so then you have to demand that every library keeps long-term video archives of everyone accessing its terminals. You might find out he's wardriving for Wi-Fi, and then you have to have undeletable logs mandated in the operating systems of all the 'private' computers hooked up to the Internet, so for example, you're saying Linux should be illegal, because some Richard Stallman types might be roaming around outside of jail, letting people wardrive and access the Internet without knowing who they are. Do you want Linux illegal? Don't start down a road unless you want to end up where it goes! Wnt (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

They also make it very clear at ANI that the victim of this abuse is a regular target of such abuse, that it could have been someone who had done the same thing to them before and, if you read some of the stuff the victim has been subject to that this relates to ARBPIA. Yet your take away is that 'the vandal does this to anyone who reverts them', that is not the key take away even if that statement was made.

I do not know where you get your distopian panopticon from my comments so I have no response to it. If you want to expand on that subject please do so on my talk page where I would be happy to discuss it. Jbh^Talk 14:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm in Australia and a Telstra subscriber. I'd support hard blocking all Telstra IPs if Telstra doesn't act soon and responsibly on this. That would oblige all Wikipedia editors who are Telstra customers to switch, if they have the option, to another provider. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't followed this case that closely, but AFAIK at the moment it's been mostly just IP editing. Perhaps they will move on to accounts after a soft block, but I think we should deal with these things as they come, although not taking too long to do so. I think we should also concentrate on the need for protection. We want to do our best to stop this behaviour, so soft blocking the necessary Telstra ranges isn't unresonable. This would have the effect of stopping anonymous editing from a lot of Telstra customers, and perhaps when combined with media attention would help to get Telstra's attention, but that shouldn't be the primary purpose of the block, rather that we need to do what we can to stop the highly problematic editing. And while it's resonable for customers to consider whether their ISP is able to provide a suitable level of service, including whether their abuse department is sufficiently on the ball to stop them being banned from everywhere, ultimately as long as we our policy is to allow IP based editing where possible, again we should be banning on the need for protection, and not because customers should be switching if they can. Nil Einne (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

If they don't immediately end their relationship with the abuser or if they unduly delay handing over the abuser's identity to the police, then preventing all of Telstra's clients from editing here is a protection measure. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Your idea is lunacy. It would be lunacy with some positive features, since the Australian editors would work together to develop and document effective workarounds for anyone to edit despite all blocks and bans of any variety. Nonetheless, it would so badly undercut our position that Wikipedia might go directly into its final collapse. This is not the first time that you've tried your best to destroy our ideals, nor will it be the last. Wnt (talk) 23:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Your ideals, singular. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Quite frankly if it really comes down to a choice between protecting the personal safety of a registered Wikipedian in good standing versus soft-blocking half of an entire continent's IP users, the only sane choice is to protect the editor and to hell with the ISP. Make it Telstra's problem if they're not responsive to reasonable requests. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• And yet there is a huge double standard at play here. Some otherwise quite sensible wikipedians above are suggesting collective punishment on Australians due to the transgressions of one person, yet are the first to hide behind anonymity to avoid responsibility for their own edits. This is really a non-starter. You will not convince (of all people) Australians by force. People tend to pull together when under attack as a group. You will not convince Telstra by threats (you are not their customers, they are not required to pay any attention to you). Media attention of a block of a significant part of a predominantly white western-democratic country is not going to be favorable to wikipedia (see previous cases of large geographical blocks on the Register). The only way this will actually get resolved is by reporting it to the authorities both locally and in the home country of the harrasser. Australia the UK and the USA all have large well funded cyber crime authorities who actively take online threats seriously. Telstra will *not* provide information on one of their customers (it would violate data protection laws) without a court order. If the WMF wants to actually *do* something about it, making a formal complaint to the police for *each and every threat* is perfectly feasible. The WMF has millions, literally fucking millions of dollars sitting around that it could be spending on actively making the encyclopedia a nicer place to edit. Hiring one or two people full time on even a basic wage (plenty of people need/want jobs!) to fill in the required harrassment forms, log the information, chase for updates from the relevant authorities etc would be a drop in the ocean of their cash reserves. I have actually taken action against harrassers overseas (Texas sheriffs resolved my issue in about 2 weeks!) and its just a case of finding the correct legal route to apply pressure. The WMF has money to burn and could easily support this. The neverending torrent of abuse some editors get is unbelievable. Its been how many years and no end in sight for some long term vandals, despite the admins, editors, WMF, arbcom etc knowing who they are, their address etc. About time the WMF put their donations to work on something more than badly planned & executed tech upgrades that no one wants. Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have been told (off-line) by an Australian that there is very little chance of the police in Australia doing anything *unless* I give up my anonymity. There is *no way* I will do that, for one very good reason: if you knew my RL name, it would take seconds, minutes on the internet to find my home address. (And the way my society function: I cannot change that.) Do you *really* think I will risk giving that to my old friend,..or any of his copy-cats? So after 5 years of rape- and death threats he gets as an award: my home address!

Eeeeh, I don´t think so.

I have been told we stand a better chance contacting https://www.tio.com.au Jalexander-WMF did you know about them? Could you please tell me if you have contacted them, or Telstra? You don´t have to tell me here; you have my email-address.

Also, understandably, the fact that edits have been oversighted makes the case more difficult, however, oversighted edits *can* be made "viewable", again, can´t they? If so, I hereby give permission to do that..(if my permission is needed) Huldra (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm dismayed that WMF haven't even told you if they've contacted Telstra, and haven't bothered to ask how you feel about un-hiding the abuse. I assumed when you went quiet it was because they were dealing with you by email. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Only in death does duty end, it's unfortunate you had to deal with that on your own. Let's see how it plays out when Telstra is faced with the WMF and the Wikipedia community. I'd have hoped to hear by now, though, that they've severed their relationship with the abuser (assuming the WMF has actually contacted them). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra While I'm not completely comfortable with undeleting the comments regardless (I still think it causes harm to have them up, and not just to you) I would not stand in the way if community members decided to do so. I do believe that's best within their realm however and not within the WMFs decision (My understanding is that it would be allowed within the privacy policy). I'll contact you by email re you other questions. Jalexander--WMF 01:30, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Jalexander-WMF, thank you for your reply, and I confirm I got your email. You are sending the ball back to the "community", but from what I can see: I´m not sure the community here will ever make any decision. In which case nothing will be done.

I repeat: un-hiding the abuse (temporarily) is fine with me, if that is what it takes to stop it. I marked the abusive IPs with @@ on the WP:ANI thread. Is there any specific person/department I should ask to get this done?

I´ve been taking this for quite some years, so I´m sort of getting used to it--to the extent that one ever can get used to it. (And so is everyone else in the I/P area who is not considered "pro-Israeli" enough). The problem is basically that we are not getting any new editors, they are scared off. Btw, Wikipedia is the only place I have ever been threatened with rape -or murder -in my life. (And I have been on the net for more than 20 years).

Anthonyhcole, I "went quiet" on the "dramah"-boards...as it was week-end, and I did not expect the WMF to be very active then. Also, I personally really don´t like spending too much time on these boards; I had to get back to my relaxing little "gnoming" (like this; which is what I absolutely love doing), cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra, has the WMF contacted Telstra? Has the Telstra IP stopped abusing you? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:48, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Editor test

I only just heard about Ballotpedia from Larry. It uses Mediawiki but is the opposite of the wiki concept, namely it vets editors and all submissions are carefully reviewed. I was fascinated by the editor test. I wonder how many editors here could pass it. It tests a mixture of wiki knowledge (e.g. templates) and simple grammar (what is a comma splice). I don't think it would go down well here! Peter Damian (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a pity you cannot just take the test and receive your score. Or possibly I did something wrong, because having completed the test I was immediately taken to a new tab window requesting me to email my test results to Ballotpedia without my even knowing how I had done, which seemed a bit stupid. Especially since filling in your name and email address is mandatory data to be entered (these are required fields indicated by a red "*") in order to even submit your test answers in the first place. Even though some of the questions were a bit Ballotpedia-specific (I too was unaware of this site until I read your comment above, so I have never visited it) the only question that made me stop and think was the optional DPL-related one WRT ballot measures because I thought it had to do with disambiguation. The wiki knowledge and grammar questions were a breeze IMO - and should be for anyone with a university degree to their name. Of course, I may have got the answers wrong, which is why letting you know your score (whether you subsequently wish to edit Ballotpedia or not) would have been more useful - and in some cases, a possible "wake-up call" to those taking the test. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The 'dangling modifier' question is slightly tricky, but not that tricky. Peter Damian (talk) 14:11, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

There should have been more questions on the test such as this one IMO. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion comma splice and dangling modification aren't really matters of grammar--they're style. To each their own, of course. Drmies (talk) 02:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

See Modifier Placement.—Wavelength (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Comma splice, perhaps. Danglers are just poor logic and poor thinking, no? Peter Damian (talk) 20:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Three of the questions are sort of Ballotpedia-specific. Their rudimentary citation format isn't very interesting, but the question about mw:Extension:DynamicPageList is interesting. If you search "dynamic page lists" on Wikipedia you'll find remarkably little discussion of it, mostly positive; apparently Wikinews and Wikibooks were using it, at least as of 2008. I've wanted to see a way for Lua scripts and other things to access category lists, but I never knew this feature was conceivably available (though it wouldn't do that now that access to processed page text was removed). Wnt (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

So that's what that question was about. I'll have to go research that topic. But that was an optional question (the only one on the test) so I'm guessing that whatever your answer to that question (or even whether you skip it) doesn't affect your eventual score; which Ballotpedia are never going to tell you anyway. You are only going to find out if you scored higher than the minimum 83% if you receive an invitation to become a guest editor at Ballotpedia a month or so after you took the test. Bizarre. — not really here discuss 16:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Possibly some potential or actual editors are aware of (and embarrassed by) their area(s) of incompetency. (Compare John 3:21.) Fortunately, performance can be improved for closer conformity with acceptable standards, although some editors might prefer to revise the standards to match their performance. (Compare 2 Timothy 4:3.)

—Wavelength (talk) 19:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC) and 21:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

"WikiGate"?

I wanted to bring this to your attention, Jimbo, in case you hadn't already seen it or the tweets by Michael Eisen discussed therein. It seems his issue is that as a result of WP:TWL, people will add links to paywalled articles in Elsevier journals that not every reader of Wikipedia will be able to read. Everymorning (talk) 16:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

So just like JSTOR etc then, or dead-tree books "that not every reader of Wikipedia will be able to read". There has never been a suggestion that WP should be exclusively sourced from the open access internet, and the many articles that actually are tend not to be our best. Johnbod (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That. Where have you got the idea that we shouldn't be sourcing from sources that one has to pay to read (or "books", as we used to call them)? ‑ iridescent 18:22, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I think "WikiGate" is a pretty inflammatory thing to say. And the argument really just doesn't hold much weight once you examine it in depth. There is a kernel here that I do think matters - when there is a choice between equally valid sources, we should tend to favor the more free ("open") ones.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

As much as I would like to wage war on the corporations that force scientific authors to put their articles behind paywalls as a condition of being published, Wikipedia isn't the place to do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I respect Eisen, but Wikipedia needs to cover unique content that is locked behind paywalls. We should always add accessible sources where possible, and if there is a surfeit of sources we should reach for the open ones. But kicking at publishers to try to punish them for making it easier for editors to get some of their data to the public is not what I want. Wnt (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What on earth is wrong with allowing us to verify sources? The inability to access academic full text is a major issue in several areas of medicine on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a difference between being able to verify a source and being able to verify it quickly, online, and free of charge. Wikipedia:Verifiability#Access to sources clearly indicates that some sources may not be easy or free to access, but that does not disqualify those sources from use by Wikipedia. As Jimbo stated above, we should favor open access sources when available, but for many subjects good quality open access sources do not exist. Trying to impose an open access variation of FUTON bias will not help Wikipedia in its goal of building the encyclopedia. --Allen3 ^talk 21:56, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There are still libraries full of printed books which aren't available full-text on Googlebooks or elsewhere, and bound volumes of older journals which aren't available online, and access to these materials has always been difficult for many readers of the encyclopedia, through geography or access restrictions. But this material is all perfectly valid as references for WP articles. Not every source has to be online, open-access or not. PamD 22:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is a difference between being able to access it and being able to do so readily. Initiatives like this allow our editors to verify claims made based on cited sources, which claims are, historically, not always a fair or accurate reflection of the actual study. Most public libraries do not stock specialist scientific journals, that tends to be restricted to academic libraries. I think it unlikely that editors will go mining these resources to find papers to cite, it's vastly more likely that they will be used for verification of content already based on them. And that, to my mind, is unambiguously positive. Guy (Help!) 23:26, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Far be it from me to defend Elsevier, but this is at most a marginal issue. People with the expertise to skilfully interpret academic literature are likely to have access through their institutions or other sources. A token number of free subscriptions isn't going to have a big effect on Wikipedia's coverage. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think a lot of people with access to the service have it via their work position, which may mean that many of the people using it to edit Wikipedia with academic sources may be slacking off at their dayjobs. Cla68 (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

At least they're not playing Candy Crush. Everyking (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Public outreach and education is a significant facet of many academic jobs, so we're actually hard at work, not slacking off. WilyD 06:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

"People are likely to have access through their institutions". Well, maybe not in the long run. Also, Eisen is not saying that we should disregard Elsevier articles, but that we should not provide links to their paywall. Cheers, Stefan64 (talk) 07:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's likely mostly uni students with journal access, who I can only assume outnumber academics on Wikipedia, and (for some courses at least) have absurdly large amounts of free time that can be spent editing Wikipedia.Brustopher (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I have a very hard time taking anything seriously that uses the "gate" suffix. Chillum 14:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Much ado about nothing. We're doing a summary of human knowledge, not a summary of open source and public domain knowledge. Whether there are links in footnotes or not is minor, so long as the information documented by the footnotes is accurate. Those swashbuckling sorts who deeply care about this matter might might consider going Aaron Swartz with single pages of copyright documents posted to Archive.org with an attached claim of fair use as a stopgap. Carrite (talk) 14:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, we could encourage editors who linked to paywalled resources to be more liberal with quoting the relevant passage as a service to readers. That sounds reasonable in any event.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Agree - as a service to readers, but also as a courtesy to other editors and anyone reviewing the article for WP:DYK, WP:GA or WP:FA. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted though that extended quotes are generally a violation of copyright. I have many times had to delete quotes that were too long. Looie496 (talk) 16:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted though that extended quotes, properly sourced, are not generally a violation of copyright. I'd like to see a few examples. We have never, to my recollection and knowledge, had a legal complaint or threat of any kind about a properly sourced quote. There could be exceptions such as quoting the entire lyrics of a poem or song in a single block quote, but that isn't what we are talking about here. We're talking about a block quote of a passage from an academic paper published behind a paywall by Elsevier. I find it very hard to imagine a serious legal issue with that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC) Addendum: Just wanted to be clear, my request for a few examples is sincere and simple. I'd like to study this issue more before I go around making blanket recommendations. Could you start a new section here so we can discuss block quoting more extensively from paywalled sources? Some examples that you removed on the grounds of copyright violation would be a great starting point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Just Elsevier? Sometimes I quote non-public stuff behind the NY Times paywall. Also the New York Public Library has generous online access to all kinds of proprietary databases. Coretheapple (talk) 17:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

This seems like rather a silly suggestion, as anyone unable to check the source would equally be unable to verify the accuracy of the quotation. Eric Corbett 17:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

If we are limited to click-and-see sites, we can pretty much forget about any serious work on scholarly subjects. But block quoting (I hope you mean commented out) is a considerable burden. Not all these sites can be copied and pasted. To say nothing of if I'm summarizing four or five pages of online source for summary style, I can't very well reproduce four or five pages! Even if commented out, that probably goes beyond fair use. What I generally do when the (rare) question comes up is offer to send a copy of the document, if it's online and emailable, or at the least a screenshot. Really, alleged offline sources are much more difficult to verify than online sources behind a paywall, and we use offline sources routinely. If necessary, you can use the Resource Exchange to find someone with access, who can check for you, with these online sources. You're much better off than if it's a print source and Worldcat tells you the nearest copy is in the municipal library on Bora Bora.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Eh there is a fair bit about. Running searches on say doaj can throw up some interesting results from time to time.©Geni (talk) 00:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo, you might be interested in an ongoing Arbcom clarification request and AN/I thread relating to this question. Current consensus seems to be against including such quotes as a general practice, but as always, consensus can change. --Amble (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Michael Eisen really ought to be tending his own orchard right now. I'm all for open access, but as being implemented by some it has a clear flaw: the lack of distinction between the archivist and the publisher means that there is a gigantic conflict of interest. A few weeks ago we were talking about a PLOS ONE paper about Wikipedia articles that was basically undergrad-level research, and they were supposed to be the 'flagship' of the open access movement. And at the other end of the scale, we have things like this. The result is that it actually is not very safe for us to cite open access journals right now, because we could be citing some spam paper that was robo-published. What we actually need is to have 1) archivists: standardized platforms where anyone can publish and be reliably guaranteed permanent availability of their work online, that are open to everyone, and 2) publishers: independent academics who review and publish lists of the best recently archived work because it is the best work, without receiving fees from any interested party. Until we learn to set up that kind of 'kosher kitchen' for academic publishing, we won't be in any position at all to wipe out the copyright disease. Wnt (talk) 21:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Block Quoting

Jimbo suggested a new section to discuss the issue of block quoting more extensively.

I'll start by linking a discussion I started in 2012 Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources/Archive_32#Use_of_quote_parameter_in_footnote_-_a_proposal_to_provide_better_guidance

Unfortunately, it stalled, but I started with what I immodestly think is a decent summary of background and issues.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

A point also worth mentioning is that the Wikipedia rules for usage of materials subject to copyright are more conservative than might be allowed by strict application of copyright law. This is deliberate. The borderline between acceptable usage and non-acceptable usage is gray. If we simply instruct editors to follow the law, we will find some editors pushing close to the limits and we will find ourselves defending lawsuits. Even if we win them all, we lose. Our goal isn't to be in a position to win lawsuits, it is to be so clearly not in violation that copyright owners are not even tempted to sue.

It is almost certain the case that we could allow longer quotes than we currently do and still be within the law, but if we opt to allow longer quotes I would want legal advice from the Foundation to help ensure that we are not creating a legal risk.

It is also my personal opinion that material used within a hidden quote, not visible to the ordinary reader unless they know where to look, might be viewed differently, from a legal perspective, then the exact same amount of material prominent in an article. Not everyone agrees with my position, so I wouldn't push it unless we got legal support for it, but if we got legal support, we might justify longer quotes in certain situations.

As always, input from our copyright expert would be helpful. @Moonriddengirl:.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, at least to my eyes, except in perhaps a very limited number of situations, I like the idea of keeping our rules for block quotes reasonably stricter than those of the law itself. Doing so helps ensure that we don't face any legal objections under current law, and reduces the risk of our suddenly being in violation of a changed law, should such changes ever be instituted. I am not entirely sure what is meant in the above in the discussion of a "hidden quote," however. John Carter (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

John Carter - Example of hidden quote. The first ref is the usual, the second contains the hidden material, which is not viewable by the casual reader - edit to see it.

Blah blah blah

References

Specific example New York House of Refuge

• Before trimming quote
• After trimming quote
• discussion of issue --S Philbrick(Talk) 20:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• I personally hate the "quote=" parameter of the citation template. Hell, let's be frank, I hate citation templates — there's nothing they do that can't be done better with regular footnotes within [ref] [/ref] tags... The "quote=" parameter renders footnote sections almost entirely illegible in a really obnoxious TL;DR way (see above)... I don't think there is the slightest copyright concern with them under American law, but there is a small and fanatical Anti-Fair Use krew that loses their stuff over such things and I don't mind making common cause with such people over the matter. Blow up the entire "quote=" parameter and every manifestation of that parameter across En-WP — that would be a double plus good result. Carrite (talk) 00:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

This was the occasional misuse of a useful feature. Obviously, well integrated text is preferable to block quotes when it gives us the freedom to express the same facts in our own editable, non fair use requiring way. However, there are many instances, e.g. polemic political statements, where a source may be notable and eloquent, making its position absolutely clear in a way that readers want to know, but Wikipedia, trying to rephrase it to meet our style, would make a terrible butchered rehash of every sentence into which personal bias easily introduces itself. "My opponent is a thief, a braggart, and a vagabond, not worthy of your vote" ==> "Bloggs questioned his opponent's respect for private property, suggested he embellished on the truth, and harped on his transient residences in the years preceding the election, calling on voters to find more worthy options." (I exaggerate in this in that we aren't debating a quote this short, but very much the same thing can happen with longer text) And then it becomes a political WP:OR fight - was he saying the opponent is accused of disrespecting private property because of his tax policy, or that he is dishonest because of his parliamentary tactics? Should we omit the text altogether, hiding it behind some platitude that "Bloggs denounced his opponent harshly" that then is accused of making Bloggs sound extreme without giving his side of the story? No, we should always give the subject of an article his say - a chance to be heard in his own words justifying his opinions the way he did. Sometimes this is really embarrassing to him and his friends want it cut out, sometimes it is embarrassing to his opponents and their friends want it cut out, but either way there's nothing like the horse's mouth. Wnt (talk) 18:50, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

The gorilla in the room

Jimbo says the sample should be weighted to popularity. I agree. Why don't we make it simpler still and start with the article with most page views and work down? Each version should be assessed using the methods that reviewer assistants to the editorial boards of journals use to assess suitability. Then compare assessments.

The gorilla is not the weak content highlighted by Smallbones, it's the reason for it. People register for Facebook because it's personal to them. Similarly, they register for Twitter for the ability to message their friends. Wikipedia is not personal - it's altruistic. That's why the registration model doesn't work. Larry Sanger is a big supporter of registration to write an article and it's the cornerstone of Citizendum. Check "recent changes" in Citizendum and they are few and far between, and mostly by the same person.

The hook for Wikipedia is "The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". But when people visit the site and try to write about something that interests them and they are knowledgeable about they find they can't. Or rather, they can but then have to wait about six months while the journal decides whether to publish. Get serious, folks. This is not the way to do it. Of course there need to be safeguards. Every worthwhile enterprise gets vandalised. But we have pending changes to get over that. So let people start articles within pending changes which will switch off as soon as the text is edited by an autoconfirmed editor (i.e. vetted). See discussion and explanation at en:User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 193#New paid editing scandal - How many more will there be until we take serious action?. This kills two birds with one stone - marking Articles for Creation historical also ends the ability of sockpuppets to dangle the prospect of immediate publication in front of people in return for money. 109.159.90.194 (talk) 10:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

This continues the discussion at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 194#Making the Wales method work. 78.145.31.93 (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I see my user name above and a link to a discussion I started, but I'm having difficulty relating the above comment to anything I addressed or proposed. The pending changes suggestion and making AfC "historical" are not something I've personally considered enough to make any suggestions here, but I'm not necessarily against it.

I have been working on an exploratory data analysis comparing random articles vs. their versions from 2 years previous and almost have enough data now to make some suggestions on how to properly do an analysis of the question "Do Wikipedia articles improve over time?" It's been time consuming and I should state that anything I come up with is not a "scholarly study" but just an exploratory data analysis. I have made a mistake or 2 along the way. I am almost ready to say something like "neither the quality-class system used by Wikipedia, nor the quality measure I proposed are useful in measuring quality differences in articles over time." But that doesn't mean that we can't come up with a quality measure that would be useful. In fact, if anybody has experience using bots to collect data, I've got a few ideas on what data to collect so please contact me on my talk page if you think you can help.

I plan to make an organized write-up of my exploratory analysis, and hope to put a link here on Monday. Until then any comments would likely distract me from the work I need to do first. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Wow that's amazing. When I recently mentioned the concept, I was immediately snarked at for things that I didn't say plus an extra allegation that my proposed sample size was too small to be scientific (which of course was not remotely close to being relevant to what I was saying). So - I love that you say up front that what you're coming up with is not a "scholarly study" and encourage you to persevere anyway. It's a first pass look at an interesting concept. I'd love to hear about the mistakes you made along the way, too.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I applaud your initiative in doing this analysis. May I suggest a small modification if it isn't too late? If you choose random articles from Wikipedia you have a selection bias. Given the breadth of Wikipedia, it is likely that this bias is not a serious issue, but it will leave the study open to criticism. It can be easily overcome; randomly choose topics from another source such as Encyclopaedia Britannica, then study the topic as covered in Wikipedia.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:40, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Google fundraising banner

File:Google donations banner 17 Sept 2015 Australia.PNG

Nice to see Google being good.

Given the value we're adding to Google (and the page-/banner-views their "knowledge graph" is taking from us), perhaps they could be induced to run banners for us and match donations to Wikipedia dollar-for-dollar. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting idea... Just as a side note, I'm not convinced that the knowledge graph is taking pageviews from us. The evidence is mixed. And intuitively, take a look at these search results: Google search for 'duke of wellington'. In addition to the first link, we have a link on the right hand side, as well as there being links to 6 search terms, all of which have Wikipedia links above the fold.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is losing clicks from me. About half of the Google searches I do where I'd normally click through to Wikipedia, I don't need to now because what I want is in their "infobox" (mostly scraped from Wikipedia). And that's not remotely compensated by the number of times I click a link in their infobox. Not a big sample, I know. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Does it matter? We're not funded by Adsense—why does it matter if the reader gets their information from the Wikipedia page or Google's executive summary, provided they're getting the correct information? ‑ iridescent 14:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

If Google gets better at answering searchers' questions on their results page fewer and fewer people will need to come to Wikipedia. The fewer people that use us (directly) the harder it is (longer it will take) for the WMF to raise the annual budget from banners hosted on Wikipedia. From the readers' perspective, it's all good. From the fundraising perspective it matters. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

You are absolutely right that "pageviews" is not a metric that we care about to the same degree that an ad funded website would care about. But it does matter for a couple of reasons. First, we want to have a healthy community - editorship has been stable-to-declining for a long time, and if more and more people just get tidbits of information (that we helped assemble) from other places, but don't visit Wikipedia, they might be less likely to join the community. Second, we do depend on pageviews when it is fundraising banner time - fewer pageviews means fewer people are prompted to donate. Given what a tiny tiny percentage of our pageviews show banners each year, there's plenty of room to up that - but I don't think any of us really relish the prospect of having longer or more intensive banner campaigns after such a long period of being able to manage with shorter and less intensive campaigns.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)