User talk:Jimbo Wales

This looks worthy of a discussion

This story looks worthy of a discussion. I have long advocated that we should deal much more quickly and much more severely with COI editors. The usual objections (from some quarters - I think most people agree with me) have to do with it being hard to detect them, but in this case, the COI was called out, warnings were issued, and nothing was done. Now the editor has been called out by the media embarrassing him (he deserves it), his employer (who may not), and Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:08, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

In case anyone interested in discussing this isn't aware, there is also a thread at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Edwardpatrickalva and blatant COI.. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:49, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

As the individual who initiated the ANI discussion, I feel that this user has also been fairly disingenuous about his actions. This extends beyond just simple COI, which is bad enough in its own right. I furthermore believe that what Mr. Alva is doing is a violation of WP:GAME, and is a flagrant disregard for all things factual and encyclopedic in nature. I looked through his contributions (that term can only be applied in the most literal sense), and the violations range from NPOV and WEIGHT, to IRS, GAME, and disruptive editing, with a healthy dose of shamelessly plugging the movie and the "stars" thereof. All this to make Wikipedia conform to the movie's narrative. Perhaps it's time for a consensus on a course of action? KirkCliff2 (talk) 15:05, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

@Edgar181: @KirkCliff2: Re J's in this case, the COI was called out, warnings were issued, and nothing was done. What are your views on that? Why was nothing done? Why does it take so long to stop abuse? What could be done to deal "much more quickly and much more severely" with egregious offenders? How would you improve WP:COI, esp the inconsequential "How to handle" section? I'll ask these questions and suggest some answers on COI Talk, but since Jimmy started the conversation here, I'm responding here first. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 01:41, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

It's not really my place to speculate on why the inaction has persisted , but to give theAdministrators the benefit of the doubt, Mr. Alva's editing hasn't always been so noticeably egregious, and COI is a touchy and often less visible issue. Regardless of the Why's and How's of the matter, a statement needs to be made for the sake of the encyclopedia's very integrity: If Edward goes unpunished for deliberately flouting the rules and then disingenuously feigning ignorance, asserting his intentions were pure (as if that magically justifies his revisionist editing) when a brief look at his edit history would indicate otherwise, it would turn the criticism from him to us for permitting this "assistant producer" to essentially get away with slander, promoting a false narrative, disruptive editing, and making a mockery of the non-negotiable COI and GAME policies. A complete block would seemingly be the only logical course of action to ensure Wikipedia, BLP articles, and touchy subjects remain as neutral as possible, even if the block is issued by Jimbo himself (If memory serves correct, he hasn't banned anyone since 2010, and mostly renounced such powers ). It may not be my decision alone to make, but as a veteran editor who rarely even weighs in on such issues and has only been to ANI once before, but who is well-familiarized with how the system works, it would stand to argue that Mr. Alva must be banned for the reasons mentioned above. Now, we need to rally together and reach a necessary consensus on a course of action that preserves the values and principles Wikipedia stands upon. KirkCliff2 (talk) 13:54, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

LeoRomero, With regards to the COI policy itself, we need to take a very strict approach to violations thereof: Two warnings, and if the editor continues with the COI, it's a topic ban at the minimum. If coupled with other severe violations, which would show a complete disregard for Wikipedia policies, a total block outright. If we, as a community, start taking a more relaxed approach to a serious issue, it becomes a dangerous slope. KirkCliff2 (talk) 14:00, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

@KirkCliff2: I learned so much so quickly from your Admin Cliff Notes (ba dum bum), thanks! Would you mind bringing some Admins into this policy discussion? WP:COI, unlike some stronger policy docs, says nothing about block/ban procedures, or that Consensus process of which you speak. Are we supposed to being doing an emergency "sense of community" vote or something? Is it like the Supreme Court where advocates wrap up the case and a buncha people who are supposed to know stuff vote? Or can I just banish evildoers into Hades (like into Facebook or something)?

@Ryan Kaldari (WMF): You wrote Thanks and WikiLove - can you write WikiToughLove?

@Ryan Kaldari (WMF): @DannyH (WMF): PS: I added Better control of Conflict of Interest damage to the 2015 Community Wishlist Survey. Only because you don't have enough to do. Sorry/notsorry; LeoRomero (talk) 00:21, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, George "Jimbo" Washington, for your Solonic retirement. If the Community you founded can't deal with a little nuisance, who'll stand in front of the totalitarian tanks as we approach the Technological Singularity? Freedom and Responsibility Now!

LeoRomero (talk) 16:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I've debated applying to be an admin, and whereas I do act as the head Admin on a Wikia project (ironically, the position there is called a Bureaucrat, which I rather despise, since I hate bureaucracy, and Wikipedia is never to be one), I'm ambivalent about being one here, even if they deemed me fit to be granted such a privilege. If ever I should feel my being an Administrator can serve to fill a niche or add something novel, I might consider applying. For the time being, however, the lack of instruction on how to best go about handling COI matters (assuming it hasn't been delineated elsewhere) might potentially be the reason for this confusion, much as Jimbo alluded to. I'd imagine a good place start is by going to the COI talk page, and seeking answers on banning policy as it relates to such matters there. I'll take the initiative, and go visit the COI noticeboard to see if we can bring in specialists to redress the problem as it relates to Edward Alva. KirkCliff2 (talk) 17:26, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Some logical thoughts to consider so we don't look like a kangaroo court or lynching:

1. He did declare his COI. Good.
2. He did use the talk page. Good.
3. If his edits were questioned, did he edit war over them? If so, a short block might be in order if he persisted. Did any of that happen?
4. If his editing was questioned, was he willing to stick to using the talk page and cease editing the article(s) in question? If so, good.
5. Questions about his editing will naturally tend to call out the worst assumptions made by human nature (such failure to AGF can be a blockable offense): "He has a COI, so hang him immediately, no matter what types of edits he made, and by all means immediately revert all of them, regardless if they improved the article!" We must still AGF. Misunderstandings occur between all good faith editors, and that includes COI editors.
6. Lynching is the wrong approach because a COI does not absolutely forbid editing, but rather it's an admonishment to be careful. If a COI editor actually violates policies (not referring to COI here), then judge based on those infractions. While it's wise for them to only use the talk page, it's not totally forbidden to carefully edit and seek consensus.
7. A topic ban might be wise, if such infractions are clearly proven to be more than just differences of opinions.

So go through those steps and don't jump immediately to blocks and topic bans unless necessary. We do need topic experts, and even a topic ban should be limited to the article itself, not the talk page, unless dealing with a really hardcore a##hole. Then just indef them. So carry on and good luck with this. -- BullRangifer (talk) 05:12, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@BullRangifer: Suggest we talk about the specific case not here but on its ANI section. (I just added a note there that it's way too long and ad hominem; requested a case summary) The conversation here pertains to Jimmy's long-standing concerns about WP:COI. I like your checklist/Qs. Work them into WP:COI#How to handle conflicts of interest? - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 18:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Agree. -- BullRangifer (talk) 02:52, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

On COI problems in general, I've written some notes at Wikipedia:Hints on dealing with conflict of interest problems, based on experience at WP:COIN. This is not policy, just condensed experience from seeing similar problems over time. John Nagle (talk) 23:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

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Jimmy, having just posted a case summary draft of the Alva cases on ANI, I have one recommendation re COI: No Conflict of Interest Edits. All the drama, the anger, the wasted time, the misdirected energy. What for? If I truly believed that I'd earned myself a Wikipedia entry, I could just search a bit for 3-5 credible editors who're into what I'm into, ping them into a draft on my user space, and see if they'd discuss/edit/copy/paste. Done, and it's all legit. Why we gotta go and make things so complicated? You play COI, you're exiled to MySpace. - Thanks; LeoRomero (talk) 09:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

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Summary and discussion of recommendations

@KirkCliff2: Two warnings, and if the editor continues with the COI, it's a topic ban at the minimum. If coupled with other severe violations, which would show a complete disregard for Wikipedia policies, a total block outright ... the lack of instruction on how to best go about handling COI matters might be the reason for this confusion. A good place start is by going to the COI talk page, and seeking answers on banning policy as it relates to such matters there.

Discuss:

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@BullRangifer: Checklist: Did User declare COI? Did s/he [ BR used "he" bec he was referring to Edward; s/he and h/er are Leo's gender-neutral revisions, pronounced "she" and "her", since these recommendations are meant to apply to all ] use the talk page? If edits were questioned, did s/he edit war over them? If so, a short block might be in order if s/he persists. If h/er editing was questioned, was s/he willing to stick to using the talk page and cease editing the article(s) in question? Are we assuming good faith? ... COI does not absolutely forbid editing, but rather it's an admonishment to be careful ... A topic ban might be wise, if such infractions are clearly proven to be more than just differences of opinions.

Discuss:

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@Nagle: On COI problems in general, I've written some notes at Wikipedia:Hints on dealing with conflict of interest problems, based on experience at WP:COIN. This is not policy, just condensed experience from seeing similar problems over time.

Discuss:

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@LeoRomero: (a) Expand COI's "How to handle" section to describe the steps our Community takes to quickly and severely deal with COI recidivists (see COI Talk starting here); better yet: (b) Zero Conflict of Interest Edits. The best way to get rid of the COI problem is to get rid of COI.

Discuss:

LeoRomero (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:51, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

No excuses, @Jimbo Wales: Get out there and vote! Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

BTW, if you want to view my recommendations for voting, please see User:Smallbones/ACE2015. If you want to see pretty much the opposite recommendations, please see User:Carrite/ACE2015. All other voters' guides are also linked to from the top of both pages. And if you'd like us to stop discussing the election on your talk page, just let us know. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

You could just plop the template right here, you know:

HTH --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 21:38, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Winner! Carrite (talk) 06:25, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I forgot to request inclusion of my voting guide in the template. I encourage all established editors not to forget to vote with their socks as well as their main accounts. Cla68 (talk) 06:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

@Cla68: voting with multiple accounts is not allowed (AFAIK), and can lead to votes being struck off. Mdann52 (talk) 06:57, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I see snark detection is working well today... Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:53, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Lingo: "HTD" = Hasten The Day. Carrite (talk) 00:16, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Meanwhile "HTH" means "happy to help".

HTH.--SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 00:47, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, CLA68 is the one with a HTD voting list... Carrite (talk) 12:57, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Vote early, vote often! --Carnildo (talk) 03:15, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Browsing

I wonder if the developers of wikipedia would consider a turn book page option for articles instead of just the standard one page scrolling downwards. Like this at archive.org I actually find it easier to read and browse with a simple click between pages horizontally without having to keep scrolling downwards, especially for big articles. If we had a "Reader" function on wikipedia which converts articles to a book format, perhaps with two columns on each page I think I'd find it much more reader friendly and usable.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:36, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

This is a really good idea actually. I have been playing with the "Create a Book" option over the last few months and actually agree with Dr. Blofeld (oh heck...just saw "Spectre" yesterday. LOL!) that reading with the page turn option like a book is far easier. Some function that automatically does this to each page with a click or...even an option to turn the entire browsing experience into a book format would be a fantastic step forward for the project.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:05, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

If you browse through the magazines on archive.org you'll notice that browsing content puts much less strain on your fingers with a simple click and is actually a more convenient way of reading for the reader. You don't have to keep moving it down, but you work across and it's all in one place, page by page. I also think that as it is an encyclopedia, customizing it to resemble an old encyclopedia with pages would be a more attractive way to read content and consolidate knowledge. I think even for mobiles and iPads it would be a far easier way to browse to simply tap between pages. To allow room for the double page book format there could be the option to have a hidden sidebar which only appears when you hover over it to maximize reading space and appearance. Another feature I think, the option to browse articles by subject. Like you could browse a category alphabetically in a book format, going from article to article, or click on a letter at the bottom to find surnames or articles with that letter in a given category or section of the project.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, you are aware that Jimmy doesn't write the Wikipedia source code himself? You need to be posting this at WP:VPT (to discuss the feasibility) or Phabricator (once you know exactly what you want) to make anything happen. ‑ iridescent 09:35, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Lol. I think he might have an idea how things work. ;) For better or worse, this talk page seems to have become a catch-all venue though. Samsara 09:40, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Um, it's not addressed to Jimbo, it's just I know some of the developers watch his talk page and it's often a good place to raise things like this. Perhaps I should mention it at the village pump too.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:59, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

I've mentioned it at the village pump.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:01, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

100th London Wikimeetup

I apologise if someone has thought of this before me¹, but as you were directly responsible for the very first Wikimedia meetup and are at least somewhat responsible for Wikipedia (and hence there being editors of Wikipedia who can meet each other) I thought it appropriate to extend to you a formal invitation to the 100th London Wikimeet on Sunday 13 December (full details at the link).

Everyone is welcome, so if you are reading this, want to come along and are or will be in or near London on that date then it will be great to see you. If you know of someone who may be interested but who isn't reading this, please spread the word. There is also a Facebook event (not set-up by me) for those who like that sort of thing (the meta page is the primary location for expressions of interest though). Signing up in advance is optional - feel free to pop along.

The London meetups now happen regularly on the second Sunday of the month, so if you can't make this one you'll be more than welcome at subsequent events. There are also events in other parts of the UK and the wider world listed at m:Meetup if London isn't near where you are.

¹: the archive search suggests they haven't, but I find that difficult to believe. Thryduulf (talk) 15:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Bassel Khartabil

I'm posting here to raise awareness amongst English and other Wikipedians about the plight of Wikipedian Bassel Khartabil. Amnesty International is reporting that he may be facing a death sentence. I'm preparing an editorial about this, but that seems woefully inadequate to help him. Arguably, there is nothing we can do to help him, but I hope we can try. I appeal to you for ideas.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

We are preparing an organised banner campaign at m:Talk:Banner:Free Bassel. I also plan to work on a blog post (or two) and a press release this evening/tonight. All help, ideas and suggestions are welcome. odder (talk) 10:11, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Donal?

Hi Jimbo, I thought I'd make you aware of an RfD for Donal Wales (link). No one calls you that, right? --BDD (talk) 17:13, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

No one calls me that. But why on earth would we delete a redirect like that? It causes no harm and costs nothing to maintain. In my (brief) academic career, I co-authored a paper under the name "J. Donal Wales" so it is possible that someone somewhere might search for that name. (The paper was not particularly important, so it's unlikely, but hey, you never know.) And when you do so at Google right now, I'm the first result, which makes sense. I assume the redirect is responsible for that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:53, 25 November 2015 (UTC)