User talk:Jimbo Wales

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The best way to get a response from Jimbo is to say something funny. :)

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Something fun from Jimbo for the politically inclined

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Utter Debacle

You may want to take a look at User talk:Publicgirluk, and the associated Wikipedia:Publicgirluk photo debate and Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_August_27#Publicgirluk.27s_images. Quite frankly, the attitudes and actions of some of the editors and admins during this farce have been unbelievable. They've managed to drive away a user who attempted to contribute in good faith, and I've quit the project as I can't justify contributing to a project that treats people so shabbily. exolon 14:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It looks to me like this "user who attempted to contribute in good faith" was likely just trolling us. The "utter debacle" I see here is that good people were suckered into defending this nonsense. "Publicgirluk" should have been indef blocked and the images speedied without so much as a how do you do. --Jimbo Wales 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I am unclear as to which edits you object to. WAS 4.250 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see good judgment prevail. Thanks Jimmy. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Trolling? How? If I was suckered I would like to know in what way? HighInBC 20:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If I offer a guess (& I hope Jimbo doesn't mind me speaking for him), I'd say that he doubts that the average woman -- or at least, a woman who would prove to be a constructive contributor -- would post the pictures in question. -- llywrch 20:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The block reason refers to Jimbo Wales, so I would prefer to hear his reasoning. HighInBC 20:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Jimbo's original answer is pretty informative. "likely just trolling", "nonsense" and "should have been indef blocked/speedied" should tell you what you need to know without pressing an issue in which Jimbo describes those defending publicgirluk as having been "suckered"... -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not informative at all. It is a list of Jimbo's opinions; his opinions may well be based on good reasoning, but he has only provided the conclusions so far, not the process with which he arrived at them, so I can't tell. Jimbo has not described why Publicgirl_uk's edits constitute "trolling"; ie., what he has seen in those edits which I failed to see. And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan.

I understand that WP is not an experiment in democracy, but I also understand that this is a consensus-based project. I also respect the fact that as WP's founder, Jimbo's opinion deserves to be treated with respect. But so do those of the rest of the community here, which largely seemed to be supportive of Publicgirl_uk in terms of following the guidelines of WP:AGF.

Jimbo, please go back in the page history of the blocked user's talk page and read her reply to this entire debate. I have spent a great deal of time dealing with trolls here and this simply isn't one. Further, Publicgirl_uk had already posted a comment stating that rather than defend herself in this debate, she would rather her images be withdrawn and was leaving the project. That is not the action of a troll. A troll, upon stirring up so much furor, would be having a great time; they would want to stick around and have more fun by stirring the pot some more. After all, what would it cost them? In addition, I'd like to point out that in this comment I mentioned, she also stated that she expected there would be a negative reaction to her withdrawal of the images, in her words the "no smoke without fire" argument; and here it is.

I think you've made a mistake, Jimbo. Your opinion is given great weight around here. This puts a (probably unfair) burden upon you to be more careful with what you say. You can't just toss things like that off without giving a line of reasoning. Perhaps you believe that the images she uploaded weren't appropriate for the site . That's cool - we have a process for that, which was ignored in this case (images deleted without consensus). Publicgirl_uk was treated very poorly by WP and it makes me ashamed of this project. We already have ways of dealing with, reporting, and correcting inappropriate behavior at WP. None of these processes were used. In fact, quite a few procedures we have in place for dealing with "trolls" was ignored or broken here. Look at the user's talk page history and all the users who expressed their wish that Publicgirl_uk remain as a contributor. I don't mean any disrespect, but you can't just go calling all those editors, which includes myself, "suckers" and Publicgirl_uk a "troll" without providing reasons. I know I am not alone in wondering what that reason is. Cordially, Kasreyn 11:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Please WP:CIVIL. Your comment "And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan." was plainly uncivil. I don't expect an apology given your animosity, but I'd try to cool down if I were you. 2. Your assessment of the community being 'largely in support of' WP:AGF being the most important guideline for dealing with publicgirluk's uploads is plainly wrong.The community was not 'largely in support' of either view. 3. Your characterization of 'what a troll would do' is absolutely wrong - Just disrupting WP with this behavior is enough to retire the 'publicgirluk' sock. 4. Your continued haranguing about 'how she was treated' when it's clear that she has treated the community disrespectfully with her trolling is getting very very old.

I recommend you leave the issue alone (or at least drop some of your tired arguments as they have been rehashed to death) and try to conduct yourself civilly. Perhaps Theresa's advice on the other page you're pressing these same old issues is good advice to consider - "Actually doing something constructive, rather than the endless talk (which is happening on this page) feels good." Have a wonderful day. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1. I found your comment to HighInBC to be rather high-handed and insulting; I felt you were talking down to him and belittling his request for information. It was his place to dispute it if he wished, though, so perhaps I shouldn't have butted in. 2. I don't see how it's plainly wrong; important talk sections on this subject have been (I hope accidentally) deleted and others have been closed, making it rather difficult to even determine what consensus there was, if any. 3. I fail to see anything disruptive in Publicgirluk's actions, and her defense of herself was startlingly civil and polite, which is very rare for a new user under such circumstances. 4. I do not appreciate my remarks being described as "harangues", I do not feel Publicgirluk ever treated this community with anything but the utmost respect, and how can my questions be "getting old" when no one has given me the courtesy of a meaningful answer?

I do feel that I have conducted myself civilly, though I will admit I have been sorely tried in that regard for probably the first time ever in my time at WP. You ask me to leave the issue alone, but how can I in good conscience? I am not in the slightest convinced that the editor in question was a troll. If you have some sort of evidence not available to me, or if there has been some establishment of proof to support your claim that PGUK was a sockpuppet, then I'd be very interested to see it. You imply my questioning is unproductive; nonsense. By questioning, I am attempting to find a way to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. WP has lost at least two editors that I know of over this, and possibly more who simply didn't announce their departure. That is unproductive. If the talk seems endless, communication and, ultimately, answers and solutions, will be the best way for us to solve it. Regards, Kasreyn 21:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Suffice it to say that I disagree wholeheartedly with your views - both of my conduct and the original issue of the images and the behavior of the uploader. So have many. And like them I disagree with you for all the reasons that have (again) been discussed ad nauseam by what is now dozens of particpants.

Claiming there's not been enough discussion is particularly ludicrous, when Jimbo captures it best with 'should have been indef blocked/speedied wihtout so much as a how do you do'.

You're welcome to keep spinning on this, but I've said my peace enough, and done so civilly and directly. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. Peace. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

"And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan." is not uncivil. Please explain how denying your the ability to decide for others what they need to know is uncivil? Please stop trying to block this line of questioning. HighInBC 14:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is uncivil. I'm not blocking anything - one cannot 'block' a conversation. You're welcome to keep pressing in defense of a troll if you'd like, but the reaction you get may not be what you (ostensibly) want, which is better policy and a better encyclopedia, right? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not say I am defending a troll, I am asking why it is thought someone is a troll. If you wish to discuss this matter further User:RyanFreisling, please do so on my talk page, not here. I don't think seeking clarification is innapropraite in this case. I am not asking you your opinions as I am very aware of them from other pages. HighInBC 16:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Whooa! Calm it down people. Have a nice cuppa tea (or whatever floats your boat). We are all nice people here. Let's not let passion spill over into anger. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 16:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm happy to leave it lay right here. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

That would seem to be quite natural, as you are satisfied with the way things have turned out. Others are not, and thus are not happy. Kasreyn 21:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Because it was the right decision. Quite natural indeed. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

All this over some chick who uploaded naked photos of herself? Is there an archive somewhere? ;) --kizzle 21:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If the person is labeled a troll based simply on the pictures she uploaded, doesn't that mean no one would be allowed to upload pictures like that—anyone who did so would be trolling by definition? This is very worrying because there is no reason to think the pictures were trolling—they could have been trolling, but they could have been good faith, too, and my money's on the latter. Particularly so since no other behavior from the user was trollish in the least. Personally I think Jimbo should apologize for what he's said here. Everyking 21:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya, I might be blinded by the fact that I'm defending an attractive girl who uploaded naked pictures of herself, but Publicgirluk is definetely not a troll, as evidenced by her goodbye message. Matters of policy over what some see as pornographic material (and not copyright, as that's basically been settled at this point that these pics are hers) are important, and should be addressed, but it would seem that labeling this user a "troll" along with other instances of below-average conduct towards this user are not justified in any way whatsoever, especially given the coherence and conduct of her goodbye message and other posts. --kizzle 21:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say, I disagree wholeheartedly. She appeared with little else of value having been contributed prior, posted extremely graphic photos of a young woman without verification of the model's identity or the image's license, and then took offense at the inevitable requests for validation (due to the increased risk and seriousness of such imagery). Her 'defenders' have decried describing her as a 'troll', and claiming she was 'mistreated', but it's WP and the exercise of good judgment that's been mistreated here. She was, as Jimbo suggested, 'very likely trolling' - at least in my eyes and, gathering from the other opinions posted, a goodly number of other users and admins. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:06, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You would, liberal POV-warrior... ;) I just have a hard time labeling her a troll with such a lack of belligerance or a perceptible intent to cause annoyance, as her goodbye message seems annoyed but completely willing to abandon the matter. Regardless, it's over, she's gone, and i'll be desparately looking up google cache's for the deleted images. --kizzle 22:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the hoary old chestnut being wrangled over here is the definition of an internet troll. For some people, this label can encompass a wide range of behaviours, while for others, it is a very narrow range of behaviours being described. I personally don't think the banned editor was a true troll, but possibly could have been one masquerading as a new editor. Or she could have been genuine. There is no way to decide. But I do agree most emphatically with the comment by Kasreyn: "You imply my questioning is unproductive; nonsense. By questioning, I am attempting to find a way to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. WP has lost at least two editors that I know of over this, and possibly more who simply didn't announce their departure. That is unproductive." That comment was entirely reasonable and not incivil, and RyanFreisling's accusation of incivility did not help. Of course, the real reason that "talk" over such subjects is endless is because no-one actually oversees a debate, summarises it, and moves it forward. So-called consensus building around here is often extremely anarchic, and the end result can be a bit hit-and-miss. A genuine attempt to build consensus will have someone (preferably neutral and not involved) summarising the debate and keeping the debate organised. Carcharoth 14:43, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear, my 'accusation of incivility' was not based on that comment by Kasreyn, but this one: "And I can decide for myself what I "need to know" without you telling me, Ryan.". -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:17, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh please! Ryan, you tried to enforce you viewpoint on somebody else and then when they objected with a mildly snarky comment you went off to hide behind Official Policy. While Kasreyn may have been condescending it was not worth mentioning or were you trying to change the subject? Triumph's Hour 00:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There is one member who has uploaded naked pictures of himself. He is maybe 500lbs and he put them in all the articles related to obesity and nudity (I forget the exact articles). The images are very disgusting and clearly shock images. The images are more offensive than tubgirl. I won't name the person, but he was made an administrator. Anomo 20:28, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that looks like a case of the fox guarding the henhouse. I guess only ugly people can upload nude photographs of themselves. Triumph's Hour 00:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

My faith and respect for wikipedia has been rocked, due to the indefinite ban with the flimsiest of justifications. Sure it's Jimbo's baby and his will can do such things. I just thought, because of wikipedia, that he was better than this. And no I didn't get to see the pics.--Mongreilf 14:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't understand what's the problem.. I did get to see the pics, and they were nothing special -- This is much more.. "obscene" [1] | Swalot 17:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh My God, That is easily one of the most disgusting things I have ever seen. Sound and Fury 00:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That notwithstanding, the 'obscenity' of the images is not relevant. What is relevant to the status of the images underlying this (now ancient) thread was the identifiability of the model and the lack of verifiability of copyright license. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

That's right. Furthermore it was definitely worth losing a well-intentioned editor over. Sound and Fury 23:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Or, not. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

But we could've had our first ever Wikipedia porn star! Or maybe not. I have not seen the pictures but I am sure that we all know the consequences of hosting the pictures of an under-age girl on your website. The legal ramifications would be a little more severe than an indefinite ban. Sound and Fury 05:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Enough, already. Let this thread go! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I’m not sure what the grounds for letting it go are. There have been endless complaints a vast amount of which arise from the fact that the user was indefinitely blocked when she considered by many to be quite reasonable, and would no doubt have been willing to refrain from adding similar pictures if asked. Had that happened, not only do you keep a potentially valuable editor but you avoid scandal. I have used WP for years and have only recently begun actively contributing, I was not keeping up with this when it was going on so I for one probably will let it lie, but it is disheartening to newcomers to become a witness to the large scale admin usurpation of the project, meaning primarily I think handing out indefinite bans is, unarguably in many cases, more a power play than "janitorial upkeep”. This handling of this case was, and is, outrageous; for my part I’m going to forget about it but I think we should keep a sharp eye on the people who took the hard-line on this user and I hope good can come from it in the form of restricting administrative abuse of power in other cases. grendelsmother 12:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Although it seems unlikely that publicgirluk would return under any circumstances, the reason not to let the thread go is that the situation may well arise again. If a user who does something on the Index Prohibitum is to be "indef blocked ... without so much as a how do you do," then someone who comes to the project in good faith but without prior knowledge of our rules should be able with reasonable diligence to figure out what is or is not on the Index Prohibitum. We already have sexually explicit photos ([2]) and nude photos of identifiable people ([3]). Is the line we draw that those are OK but that a sexually explicit photo of an identifiable person is not OK? or is it that publicgirluk-type photos are OK provided that all doubts about copyright and the model's consent can be resolved? I disagree with the indef block here, but I hope that even those who support it would favor addressing the issue so that the next instance can be resolved without such a huge expenditure of editors' time and goodwill. JamesMLane t c 05:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This thread is already long since past it's usefulness. It's now past tired. The underlying issue is being discussed on a few pages proposing policy options for ensuring WP:V and license status, so I'm not sure what you're asking for that isn't already happening. And don't you think there's some validity to the idea that these things can be dealt with as they arise? These images (about whom the poster provided false verification) weren't uploaded to improve the encylopedia - they were uploaded to disrupt it. And they continue to do so with threads like this. Everything is not necessarily a 'meta' topic for drafting of ever more policy - WP is not about WP. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

While it is true that "The underlying issue is being discussed on a few pages" it is also true that there is no proof that "the poster provided false verification" and it is trolling and defamatory to claim "they were uploaded to disrupt it". My point is, there is absolutely no need to impugn a real person with such terms. We can and should refrain from personal attacks on *everyone*, at all times, as much as we humanly can. The point is, we treat everyone with courtesy and respect (but sometimes we all make mistakes). You have no idea who contributed the pics or why. In any case, it doesn't matter. Not our problem. We are writing an encyclopedia, not calling people names. :) WAS 4.250 18:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, it's not trolling nor defamatory to state that the images were uploaded to disrupt it. The poster claimed they were personal photos, they were in fact professional photos of a known porn actress. I agree that we are here to write and encyclopedia, and not to call people names - that's why I haven't done so. To quote Jimbo - the images "should have been speedied without so much as a 'how do you do'." -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

(<----)You say "The poster claimed they were personal photos, they were in fact professional photos of a known porn actress." But, going from memory here, I believe the poster claimed they were of her and taken by her boyfriend. Recent evidence indicates that the subject of the photo is a known "porn actress" which while it increases the chances that the poster was misappropriating the images does not prove that the poster was not the porn actress nor does it prove the photographer was not her boyfriend and specifically it does not prove she does not have the legal copyright to the image which is the important legal point (there are moral points as well, but good grief the images aren't even pornography according to law statutes and people are absurdly claiming we need proof she is over 18). I agree that we are here to write an encyclopedia, and not to call people names - that's why I haven't done so. WAS 4.250 22:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

That degree of lawyering (ad absurdum) is plainly inappropriate in this case, as Jimbo himself states quite clearly: -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:48, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

"It looks to me like this "user who attempted to contribute in good faith" was likely just trolling us. The "utter debacle" I see here is that good people were suckered into defending this nonsense. "Publicgirluk" should have been indef blocked and the images speedied without so much as a how do you do." --Jimbo Wales 16:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I could mention stopped watches getting the time right; Jimbo apparently got this one right but only got it on a guess, without evidence. Blocking people just based on guesses or personal intuition is bad news, because they are usually wrong, and even when they are right they undermine the principles and standards we desperately need to maintain. In fact it may be worse when the guesses are right, because that can serve to justify the tendency. Everyking 03:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't call it a guess, I call it using judgment. Even the most effective policy cannot begin to approach the value of exercising good judgment in regards to the encyclopedia. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you let this thread go while you are suggesting it to others? Subversive element 11:46, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea! Let's see what happens... -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello From Homestar Runner Wiki

Hello, Mr. Whales! My name is Brightstar Shiner and I would like to say hello on behalf of all of us at the Homestar Runner Wiki...for no particular reason at all, as it turns out. No I'm not a sysop or a beauracrat or anything, but I'm a nice plain user from over here. You should visit us sometime and talk to more important people like JoeyDay, the proprieter of our wiki. -216.255.63.167, a.k.a. Brightstar Shiner

"courtesy blanking"

Hi -- can you explain this edit? Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 04:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

For people without a large internet presence, it's common for an AfD on an article about them to be one of the first Google results for a search on their name. When that comes to Wikipedia's attention, the usual practice is to blank the AfD page. --Carnildo 06:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems in conflict with the prominent "do not blank" commands. Can we use a "no follow" tag to prevent google/etc. spidering? Sdedeo (tips) 06:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Annnnd... I bring you the all clarifying Wikipedia:Courtesy_blanking! Sdedeo (tips) 06:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Jimbo, but this is a spectacularly bad idea. I cannot see an earthly reason why the Linza-related AfDs should be blanked. Several excellent editors put an enormous amount of effort into uncovering a gigantic hoax. Their work does not deserve to be insulted in this way, especially as it was achieved in the face of some pretty bad incivilty and a sockpuppet army.

But quite apart from the courtesy-to-Wikipedia-editors business, the main problem is this: can you guarantee that the sockpuppeteer and author of the article was not Mr. Linza himself? Several lies were told to make him look more notable that required a degree of personal knowledge, and the meagre Linza website changed at a crucial moments, depending on the various reasons being put forward at the AfDs. To me, that suggests either Mr. Linza himself or a close associate. If he was the sockpuppeteer, does he really deserve a courtesy blank, given all the time that was wasted and the useless distress caused? Best, Moreschi 10:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You should be warned that you are responsible for your own words at Wikipedia. Should Mr. Linza choose to sue you for libel, I wish you the best of luck in defending yourself.--Jimbo Wales 10:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Not to beat a dead horse, but Moreschi has a point, if only in that single-purpose editors spread related information across a series of pages (those involving the individual, the surname/family, olives, a community in Italy, and, previously, a concept allegedly devised by the subject), all of which information was, to be diplomatic, at best ambiguously verifiable; other single-purpose editors then strenuously participated in the subject's AfD. In addition, during the AfD process, related web information changed frequently and apparently in response to concerns (and outright contradictions) raised by WP editors; much has simply disappeared outright since the AfD's completion. Together, this could be seen to a skeptical eye to indicate a purposefulness not often seen in straightforward vanity entries. In any case, it seems enough concern has been raised that various editors are keeping an eye out for any recrudescence within WP, which is really all one can hope for. As for the success of any possible libel action, the subject's Google trail, under several connectable identities, would seem to be sufficiently wide to render that unlikely. Robertissimo 12:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Robertissimo here. This wasn't just simple vanity, the website-changing pointed to a major hoax. I can't remember writing anything libellous, and this policy of extreme generosity to sockpuppeteering trolls is a waste of time and insulting to those editors who work hard to keep Wikipedia clean of ridiculous vanity and other impurities. Moreschi 14:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)(Oh, and I don't see how Mr. Linza could prosecute even if he wanted to. I've worked very hard to keep my real name and identity private on WP - or does someone know more about me than I know they do? Moreschi 14:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC))

My point is, there is absolutely no need to impugn a real person with such terms as "liar" or "lied" or "hoax" or "fraud" and all the rest. We can and should refrain from personal attacks on *everyone*, at all times, as much as we humanly can. The point is, we treat everyone with courtesy and respect. You have no idea if this was actually the subject of the article doing this, or some enemy of his trying to make him look bad on the Internet. In any case, it doesn't matter. Not our problem. We are writing an encyclopedia, not calling people names. :)--Jimbo Wales 16:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Irritation in German Wikipedia about New Orders

Hello Mr. Wales,

in the German Wikipedia is a great irritation about new orders. First we heard in newspapers, that you will change the concept, that all users can edit in articles. Now you will, that a special user proof the edits, bevor the reader can see an edit in the articles. Why don't you speak special to the german users in the German Wikipedia bevor you change the concept only for the german users (named in german language: "geprüfte Versionen")? Are we special idiots or why need we a special concept in German Wikipedia? There is a great irritation! Please speak first to the german users in the german Wikipedia bevor you make a new order! Thank you! -- Nihil Kainer 18:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Um, sir... I'm pretty sure that it wasn't entirely Jimbo's decision... Secondly, he's not making the German wiki unwiki. wikimedia's testing a new feature... that's sorta like stable versions. -- Chris chat edits essays 13:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't think that this guy is as much of an idiot as he sounds, he says that he is German and he probably used a translator. ~ Flameviper 14:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken on your first point but right on the second. Just ignore this posting. Sorry for the yellow bar anyway.--88.64.11.238 17:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

("Stabile versions" in Germany: "proofed versions") If it's not Mr. Wales idea, he can say, it's not his idea. Do you know something about the german discussion about this "proofed versions"? In this discussion the admins say, it's Mr. Wales idea and this is the end of the discussion, because he is the dictator and owner of Wikipedia. You think it is a joke? Read the german discussion! If it's Mr Wales idea, that the German Wikipedia have to change the concept, it is better he speaks with the German users, if not, he can say, it is not his order! Why is this a problem? -- Nihil Kainer 19:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I Think there is a gerat different between the sentence: "We want to let anybody edit but we don't want to show vandalized versions." (Wales in Future_directions) and the "geprüfte Versionen" in the German Wikipedia. "Geprüfte Versionen" is a bad interpretaion of the Words from Wales -- Nihil Kainer 06:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

What Mr. Wales decided, if I am not mistaken, is that there will be a new feature in the software. He did not decide about the policies that the German community would give itself on how and when to use this feature. I agree that the current proposals in the German community are controversial, but I do not believe Mr. Wales has anything to do with that. -- ulim, 14:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Pat

I'm a vandal-turned-good-faith-editor. Could I have a pat on the back from Jimbo Wales? ~ Flameviper 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but you can sure have one from me and I'm sure the whole Wikipedia community appreciates you. Pat, Dfrg.msc ^{1 . 2 . 3} 23:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Aww, thanks! ~ Flameviper 16:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Until they find your original account and see you're a socked puppet of an indefinitely banned editor, then they ban you. Anomo 17:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Brian Chase issue again

This bio has been reposted under a new title. You dealt with this once before.[4] You may want to do it again. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The page now has a completely different Brian Chase, a drummer. *Dan T.* 03:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Skyring

User:Skyring was blocked per an arbcom ruling for 1 year that was supposed to expire on October 26, but apparently due to administrators not unblocking before blocking, his block expired today. He says on the administrator's noticeboard that he discussed the possibilities of early unblocking with you anyway, but I wanted to be sure of this so people don't go blocking him for another month when he has clearly already learned his lesson, in my opinion, and that a further block would be overkill. Thanks. Cowman109^Talk 00:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

• Skyring was reblocked by User:Dmcdevit to correct ban duration. [5] Zzyzx11 (Talk) 03:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

If you could quickly...

I was wondering if you could take a quick look at whats happening on a couple of the guidline/proposal pages here. I've been seeing many guidlines demoted, and many proposals upgraded to guideline with almost no consensus for either change. Most of them have been headed by a user named Radiant, but don't worry about him. I'm more concerned about the guidelines and how wikipedia displays them.

Guidelines seem like an important part of wikipedia to me, and its distressing to see people mutilate them without consensus. If you could quickly take a look at some of the following pages (and talk pages), I would really appreciate it: Wikipedia:Notability, Wikipedia:Non-notability, Wikipedia:Discuss, don't vote, Wikipedia: Straw polls. Thanks. Fresheneesz 01:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes like the army ads, there's the idea, "I am a consensus of one" (similar to this) Some people just do things and if they're either have been here a long time or better yets admins it's like that somewhere people decided it was the right thing to radically make these changes and so the changer is just doing the janitorial work everyone secretly wants. Anomo 02:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

That would be all well and good if it wasn't a 50/50 split. It seems like these radical changes have opposition, and not just from me. Its not a secret what people want. Fresheneesz 08:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

These are not radical changes, they stem directly from the fundamental principles of the encyclopedia, and they have the support of most interested editors. —Centrx→talk • 22:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Copyrighted

On Template talk:Copyrighted, you say that we should keep the 'copyrighted but Wikipedia has perimission to use this image' tag so that such images can then be deleted. I don't quite understand this logic.

At the moment, any image uploaded with such a tag will be deleted. This, it seems to me, is wasting the time of both the uploader, and the admin who then has to speedy delete the image.

If we were to delete the tag, users would either have to chose to release all rights, or release the image under the GNU licence. Obviously, some would be unwilling to do this, and we would have fewer images uploaded. However, as these images that we would be 'missing out on' would only be deleted anyway, Wikipedia is losing nothing.

Maybe I'm missing something - I'm not an expert on image tagging - and I've approached this situation from the viewpoint of an admin who regulalry patrols the Speedy delete category. There are hundereds of images a day that get uploaded and speedy deleted becasue of the existence of tags that cannot acutally be used - it seems counter intuitive.

Obviously, I'd back down on this if I got a decent explanation that I can understand, but I really don't see why this (and similar time wasting tags) still exist. Robdurbar 10:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Because all experience tells us that there would in fact not be fewer image uploads. If people does not find a suitable tag they simply pick one more or less at random, meaning we have just as many problem images, but rater than sitting on one easy to find category they are scattered all over the place under falce pretences, and that is a waste of trime trying to clean up. Try checking 10-15 images in Category:Free use images (look a bit further than the first one or two pages, they get patroled the most) and see how many of them mention only basic "permission" or "non-commercial use" or simmilar non-free restrictions (or flat out fail to provide a source or explain why the image is supposed to be free use when the website it was taken from says "all rights reserved" and so on), it's rather depressing. If we ever get enough cluefull eyes to watch every upload 24/7 as they come in we should probably do away with these, but untill then it's all we can do to keep from drowing in unsuitable unfree material. --Sherool (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

An evening with you

Hello. It was really a great experience [6] to have inter-action with you during the meet. I thank you for your keen interest in the development of wikipedia in the Indian languages. I am sure that the Indian wikipedians shall spread your message far and wide in this land of one billion people, and wikipedias in the Indian languages shall register great growth in the coming months. Regards. --Bhadani 17:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Well done, Jimmy. Your meetup seems to have made quite the impact on Indian Wikipedians. -- Samir धर्म 02:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He also wore a classy guru robe. Anomo 04:33, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to say thanks

Hey, just came here to say thanks for setting up this amazing website, I frequently use it as a research station. It has also given me the oppurtunity to create articles on many different things that I love for the whole world to hear about. Once again, THANKS. Dsims209 18:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Oi

Why did you delete Brian Peppers? He is an internet phenomenon... i don't know what happened but wikipedia should at least have an article on there... what is your reasoning to delete this?? Jimbob615 01:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

see http://allenpeppers.ytmnsfw.com (site is work safe, I just had to use the alternate URL because ytmnd is in wikipedia's spam filter!) Anomo 01:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's more that there is no credible evidence that he has ever been considered notable as a person; coverage in reliable sources is negligible and restricted to sniggering over his appearance on "teh internets". Ordinary human decency does rather suggest that we should not really take an active part in the freak show unless and until he achieves some kind of coverage in media outside of YTMND and the like. We couldn't even find anything significant in his local paper, which rather suggests that the case for which he is supposedly notorious was rather small beer. The guy is disabled, lives in a care home, and suffers from a congential deformity, and we couldn't even source these facts, obvious from the photographs, without original research. Does it really make us look good to join in with the peanut gallery?

As to why Jimbo deleted it, I think it was largely because the arguments were out of all proportion to the verifiable significance of the subject (which is close to zero), with the result that many hysterical assertions grossly at variance with WP:LIVING to say nothign of WP:CIVIL were being banded about. Guy 21:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

We have to wait until Feb. 2007 to recreate the article, by which time interest in the information is likely to have diminished. Everyking 05:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Or rather, we have to wait until then to reconsider the article, by which time either there will be more sources or we will know that the problem is irresolvable :-) 62.73.137.190 10:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

One could hope that, at that point, there would be a more definitive resolution through the passage of time; either the "meme" / "fad" will have faded out so thoroughly that nobody is clamoring to recreate it, and it can stay safely deleted; or else it will have spread so widely and strongly that nobody objects to its recreation because it's now part of the culture, for better or worse. Unfortunately, it's also possible that it will just hover forever right at the margins of notability, leading to an eternal conflict. *Dan T.* 15:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Altruism

Why do you feel that atruism is morally wrong? 65.96.44.49 16:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Read up on Libertarianism. You might also read the works of Ayn Rand.Antonrojo 20:42, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo doesn't seem to like to talk about this, I guess because it makes him look bad. Honestly, I don't blame him; Osama bin Laden has got the moral high ground over him on this issue. And to run a project like Wikipedia while rejecting altruism is amazingly incongruous. I'd like to hear Jimbo discuss it at some length. Everyking 05:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyking, if you wonder why you are always on the borderline of being banned, you might want to consider what sort of discourtesy it is to not only draw a comparison between someone and Osama bin Laden, but to actually draw the comparison in a way that gives Osama the thumbs up and me the thumbs down. I mean, really. Do you expect people to react well to such behavior?

To answer the first poster, though, and to dispel any confusion, Altruism is not the same thing as "benevolence" or "kindness" or "caring". Altruism is a specific moral theory put forward by August Comte. I will quote Wikipedia: "He coined the word "altruism" to refer to what he believed to be a moral obligations of individuals to serve others and place their interests above one's own. He opposed the idea of individual rights, maintaining that they were not consistent with this supposed ethical obligation (Catechisme Positiviste)."

I do not agree with Comte's theory of morality. I am a strong supporter of individual rights, and I think that respect for rights is one of the cornerstones of any proper ethical theory. An ethical theory which asks us to put other people's interests above our own, is an ethics of self-destruction.

I am not, by the way, in any way interested in a long philosophical debate on this point or any other. Suffice to say that a general disposition of benevolence and kindness to others is, on my view of the world, totally consistent with my own self-interest. I do not believe in life as a cut-throat place where my benefit is in comptetition with the benefit of others. I think if we respect each other and work together, we can all progress. There is a harmony of interests for rational people which makes many wonderful things possible.

If that makes me worse than Osama bin Laden, then so be it.--Jimbo Wales 22:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Jeepers. I know this will seem a kiss-ass pile-on because it's Jimbo's talk, but you should consider a long think-about-it, Everking, before posting comments on highly frequented pages. Marskell 22:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Judge the meaning of the words by the behavior they represent. Some say "love" and then kill. Some say "Be selfish" and then give the coat off their back to a stranger saying it gave them great personal gain to do so. WAS 4.250 02:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I said you were worse than Osama in that particular regard because as a Muslim he presumably thinks altruism is a positive thing, although he is a terrorist who favors terrible social repression, while you as a peaceful civilian think it's a bad thing. It was a playfully provocative jab, but there's an important truth to it. I hope you realize that people who say these kinds of things usually only use the idea to justify their own wealth and self-centeredness. If you draw some obscure line that makes your theoretical opposition to altruism meaningless in practice, then that's reassuring. Everyking 03:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyking, you say "If you draw some obscure line that makes your theoretical opposition to altruism meaningless in practice, then that's reassuring." But the fact is that it has been a common understanding among educated people since the publication of The Wealth of Nations that "By pursuing [one's] own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." due to the Invisible hand. Such paradoxes are common in science, philosophy and religion. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. If you want it, set it free. Simplistic thinking isn't worth too much in a complicated world. WAS 4.250 04:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I suspect our views differ very sharply and deeply over these matters, but I have zero interest in debating them. Everyking 05:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I suspect our differences are mostly semantic and that our actual behavior choices in a given circumstance would be similar. WAS 4.250 15:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyking,I would like to respond because this issue speaks to something I am working through myself here. I think I got your witticism when I glanced at it earlier today (before reading your clarification which I just did); I saw it simply as - here is Osama espousing altruism while he plans mass murder and here is Jimbo denying it while he creates an open-source repository of knowledge. It saw it as ironic and an interesting point to make. The problem is that, in what was likely an effort to be humorous, you added the "high moral ground" part. I too am prone to saying things I might consider witty and off-the-cuff that I then get called on. The problem is that not everyone gets the joke; perhaps because English is not their primary language, perhaps because they were not expecting a joke, perhaps because they don't have the same sort of sense of humor that you and I perhaps share, for better or worse. Perhaps they do get the joke but still don't like it, doesn't really matter which. But the big thing is that it probably is not advisable to put something on wikipedia that could be in any way offensive and expect others to turn your statement to just the right angle to get your joke. This is what I am learning today. Better that you fully explain how you want your statement to be taken but that kinda spoils the fun of a joke doesn't it? So perhaps the best thing is to just state what you want to state (I assume of course that you did NOT want to state that Osama was more morally correct than Jimbo. You can have that opinion and I am sure many people do but I don't think that you think Jimbo's talk page is the place to put it so I assume you were just adding that for humor's sake). The other option is to put it in the witty form you really want to put it and just assume that 90% of the people that read it, including the recipient, will be offended and be prepared to take the consequences of that. That way you won't be surprised. That's all, sorry to be so wordy but I tend to be wordy, its part of being a wikilawyer (kicks self in head)--Justanother 23:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, altruism with the whole putting other's interests above your own an self sacrifice is something that is the required quality for "good" alignment in Dungeons and Dragons based games. You seem to travel a lot and hence have a life a lot so I don't know if you're familiar, but I hope you will respond. The thing is that whole altruism as you define it but that's always bothered me about their alignment is pretty much the D&D definition and requirement for being "good".

Not only that, but in the recent show on the Sci Fi Channel, Who Wants to be a Super-Hero, basically one of the classic traits of the superhero is self sacrifice, not caring about yourself hardly at all and doing everything for the good of others.

While I don't like how the D&D alignment good is defined by altruism, I don't think Osama or even his minions fit the reason why, especially after seeing the Loose Change video that showed they basically were filled with hatred after being tortured. But I think a better idea of altruism turned bad is the people who fought in the Crusades, hundreds of years ago, killing in a religious war for what they believed was right, even though they were wrong. Anomo 06:05, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Attempted to call you

Hi Jimmy. I tried phoning you a moment ago to find out if you will be appearing in person for our radio interview in Tampa tomorrow or doing it over the phone. I did speak with Danny and he told me that he no longer works for you and I would need to contact you directly. --Fahrenheit451 17:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"Crackpot" & "other insulting language"

A question for you at "Crackpot" & "other insulting language" -- Fyslee 18:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Tor blocks

Per our discussion last night, Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/TawkerbotTorA. — Werdna talk criticism 00:13, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Lost...

Gilligan's Island for mature audiences.  :) Hope I don't get blocked for that. --EngineerScotty 03:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha, no, it is true little buddy. :)--Jimbo Wales 03:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Arch Coal and deletion review.

I appreciate the message on my talk page explaining the deletion, however I would like to inform you that I intended to seek a deletion review.... if you wish to use "executive privilage" to squash this... then... ummm ok. ---J.S (t|c) 05:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I have endorsed your proposal for a deletion review. The quesitonable provenance of the article needs to be looked at very carefully, and this seems at the moment a reasonable place to do it.--Jimbo Wales 13:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. The problem I have is that despite questionable provenance it doesn't seem to be a badly written article nor does it scream "spam" at me. I can't see how it's gonna inflate their stock price, and it doesn't fill me with the urge to buy a truckload of coal. If the problem is simply where the article came from it's more of a tricky issue... (is the user banned? If not, do we turn down GFDL because some money might have changed hands or the work might have come from a PR source? Gosh, I don't know!) --kingboyk 13:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Could we please look again at the rules, guidelines and procedures involved in regards to conflicts of interest and commercial editing? I have previously commented on the subject on your talk page/archive11, and came up with different ideas at both User_talk:Jmabel/PR#What_about_creating_.22new.22_articles.3F and User_talk:MyWikiBiz#Openness. My worry, is that this is going to drive people who are being paid to write for Wikipedia underground. I feel that the openness and disclosure that MyWikiBiz offered was entirely different and more beneficial to the usual spam that I deal with. The usual spam I encounter has been on Wikipedia for months, and is linked off prominent articles, such as the recent case I highlighted at the Admin Noticeboard. - Hahnchen 19:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:Conflicts of interest for talk about "the rules, guidelines and procedures involved in regards to conflicts of interest and commercial editing". WAS 4.250 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) It seems the DRV is dying down and quite likely a decent NPOV stub on Arch Coal will be the result. The encyclopaedia is improved. To move beyond this, 2 questions for Jimbo:

1. Can you comment on my question on the bottom Wikipedia talk:Conflicts of interest? I think there's confusion on where we stand.
2. You also deleted The Family & Workplace Connection. Should it be reviewed like Arch Coal? (I cannot see the article so I don't know if it's worth the bother).

Thanks. Martinp 19:39, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Regarding The Family & Workplace Connection - I don't think it is worth DRVing. The notability asserted was much less, and the article quality was lower. It wasn't blatant sales/share price propoganda, but it did read like a "look at us, aren't we good" sort of piece of company blurb that wouldn't look out of place in an "about our sponsors" section of some event guidebook. If someone wants to write a neutral article about them that shows their notability they can, but this probably isn't the best starting point - especially considering its provenance. Thryduulf 19:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Arch Coal on deletion review

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Arch Coal. Since you closed the deletion discussion for (or speedy-deleted) this article, your reasons on how or why you did so will be greatly appreciated in the above review. ---J.S (t|c) 05:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC).

Charlie Rose Interview

Hey I just saw you on Charlie Rose and I just wanted to say that I thought you were very articulate and in the way you explained wikipedia's goals and its potential value. I especially like how you skillfully sidestepped Rose's pretentious and self-indulgent tendency of not allowing the interviewee to speak.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Confirmation of a honorary degree

I hereby award the honorary degree of Doctor of Letters 《文字博士》 (DLitt) to Mr Jimbo Wales for contributions to the faculty of knowledge and literature. Awarded by: Charlie Huang 【正矗昊】 19:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Original research

Hi, I was reading some of your comments on the donkey punch talk page. Correct me if I'm misinterpreting your words, but are you claiming that all references to material that was broadcast (as opposed to published) is invalid "original research?" If you are indeed claiming this, you appear to be stumbling into the realm of the almost absurdly metaphysical. Isn't material that is broadcast over the airwaves (or cables or via satellite) every bit as permanent and meaningful as that which is printed on paper (not to mention verifiable, thanks to a host of recording/playback technologies at our disposal)? Couldn't someone just as easily misrepresent a printed source as he could the content of a respected radio or television broadcast? Isn't the ratio of unreliable printed sources to reliable printed sources roughly comparable to that of unreliable broadcasts and their reliable counterparts? Please educate me.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 16:06, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

These are complex editorial judgments which depend very much on the particular context. There is a huge problem here, as I am sure you will acknowledge. Suppose I tell you that on the October 5, 1987 episode of The Simpsons there was a reference to Andy Warhol's famous Campbell Soup painting. Sounds plausible enough, eh? But how to know for sure? How do we keep from being hoaxed? This is *particularly* problematic for articles about ridiculous topics like "Donkey Punch" which tend to attract very very juvenile and idiotic editors. In such cases, yes, I think it is absolutely imperative that we be very hardcore about sourcing.--Jimbo Wales 22:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

• If someone could demonstrate that that episode of The Simpsons was publicly available, I don't see an issue. Lots of printed sources cited in Wikipedia are hard to find (which for many means, "not available for free download on the net")--and any source may be misrepresented. --EngineerScotty 02:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

sysop attempting to summarily ban me by back-door

In brief; SlimVirgin has protected a page and, by his/her own statement , will only unprotect it for other editors, but not for me. This is a back-door page ban on me without proper procedure or the authority to do so. There is a bit of history you can find on my talk page if interested. Thanks--Justanother 05:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• A better place to discuss this would be WP:ANI; Jimbo rarely gets involved in these sorts of disputes. There is such a thing as Wikipedia:Community probation, wherein a consensus of administrators can decide (among other options) that a particular editor should not edit a particular subject. This is usually enforced by blocking the editor if he disregards the probation, though, not by page protection. Note that this a community sanction; it strikes me as unusual for SlimVirgin to making that request on her (she's a woman BTW) own volition--an appeal to WP:ANI on the matter would not be out of order. However, you should note that such an appeal to might result in the other admins agreeing with Slim rather than disagreeing with her. As I'm not familiar with your edit history or the controversy; I offer no opinion as to who is right or wrong here. Just offering advice; take it or leave it as you please. --EngineerScotty 05:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo, thanks for your input on the article's talk page. I think you ascribe higher motives, i.e. allowing for a cooling-off period for all parties, to SlimVirgin based, perhaps, on your good nature and high-minded desires for wikipedia, than I do based on her actions and words toward me in my only dealings with her. I see her as continuing to punish me (by inappropriate page ban) after I have already "served my sentence" perhaps because she doesn't like my attitude. But I have invited her to clarify that her motives and the conditions of the protection are more in alignment with your viewpoint than with mine. Let's see what happens.--Justanother earlier today

Congratulations

Congratulations on 2500 edits! —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  17:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible origin of Wikitruth

I only recently stumbled across "Wikitruth". Could it be that this anti-Wikipedia site has been created by multiple hardbanned User:Ted Wilkes alias User:DW alias User:NightCrawler and his many other sockpuppets? DW was under a hard ban since 2003 (see [7]) and "has been blocked indefinitely from editing Wikipedia, per ruling of administrators, Jimbo Wales", etc. in 2005. See [8], [9]. One of the criticisms against Wikipedia centers on you and the Wikipedia:Office Actions page which deals with certain legal issues. Ted Wilkes claimed to have much legal knowledge and used this knowledge in his mud-throwing campaign against arbcom member Fred Bauder. Wilkes, who plumed himself on being one of the best and most active contributors to Wikipedia, was blocked by arbcom ruling on 19 March 2006 for one year. See [10]. Is it just mere coincidence that Wikitruth was started shortly after that date, on 20 March 2006? His alias NightCrawler had much trouble with administrator Angela, ironically wishing Angie "WikiLove," etc. See [11], [12]. Significantly, Angela Beesley is attacked on the Wikitruth pages. Furthermore, administrator FCYTravis is one of Wikitruth's whipping boys, perhaps because Ted Wilkes had some trouble with this administrator on the Talk:Nick Adams page. See, for instance, [13]. Wikitruth also frequently claims that too many vandals and trolls "game the system" on Wikipedia. Is it just by chance that Wilkes and his supporter User:Wyss frequently accused user Onefortyone of gaming the system, being a troll, the "most dangerous vandal", etc., falsely claiming that this user's edits were fabricated, unfounded, or unwarranted and therefore must be removed. See [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]. Wyss even accused administrator Mel Etitis of being a troll. See [19]. For a summary of the facts, see also [20], [21]. Significantly, Wikitruth is recommended on Wyss's user page. See also [22]. So much for my suspicion concerning the origin of Wikitruth.

The End is Nigh

Mr Wales,

I am a disgruntled former Wikipedia editor, and I have come up with the perfect plan to destroy your tax-shelter, Wikipedia. My plan is much better than that amateur Daniel Brandt's. I won't be doing any whining, but I will be exercising only my freedom of speech in a perfectly legal manner. After I finish with you, the only money you'll be getting in donations is from your pals in the porn industry, and you'll have to start using banner ads. I have resolved to destroy you, but I could be appeased and persuaded not to do so if you clean up your filthy act. Here's how:

1) Crude sexual humor (i.e. Cleveland steamer) and its ilk must be deleted. 2) The Gay Nigger Association of America must go immediately. 3) Initiate a means of asking editors and readers if they are over 18 when accessing explicit content. 4) Delete Daniel Brandt's article, Angela Beesley's article, and the article of anyone else who has a reasonable request for deletion. 5) Shut down AfD and delete things on your own. 6) You have spoilers before content from a film, but your pervert users cry "censorship!" when someone wants a warning before a picture of, say, an erect penis or a toilet full of human feces. You will offer warnings. 7) Transfer all fanboy junk to Wikia and delete. I suggest giving the dorks a month to transfer their junk articles on phasers and such and then a mass deletion should ensue. There should be only one article on Star Trek.

Should you block the account this came from (Instant Karma), the plan will automatically go into operation, and negotiations will cease. Even when you find out who and what you are dealing with, you will not be able to stop this little plan from going into operation. (See doomsday device and deterrence.) The same will happen if this message is erased. That means you, you petty little satraps known as "admins, and you, Mr. Danny "Yes, I'm a flak." Wool. Remember, you cannot hurt me, but I can do a lot of damage to your enterprise.

Zorro

Instant Karma 23:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

User:Centrx

User:Centrx just recently deleted Naruto2.0's userpage and talk page, for no reason. This is very bad behavior for an admin.--B&W Anime Fan 20:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)