User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

GOCE Newsletter

GOCE July 2011 backlog elimination drive chart Greetings from the Guild of Copy Editors Backlog Elimination Drive! We have now passed the halfway point, so here's an update. Progress Report - Progress toward the targets has been good. 751 articles out of the approximately 1,610 we would like to get completed by the end of the month were done by July 16, so we will be very close to meeting the target for volume. However, we would like to clear all of the 2008 articles from the backlog, and there are still 899 left to do. Please consider choosing one of these older articles when looking for something to copy edit. If we focus our firepower we can completely wipe out 2008 from the queue. Participation Report - 95 people signed up for the July drive. This is a great result compared to May, when we had 36. However, in May only one person that signed up didn't do any copy edits, and in July only 54 of the 91 have posted any copy edits on the big board. The task may seem insurmountable but please remember that if all 95 participants copy edit just one article a day from now until the end of the month, we will eliminate 1,323 more articles from the backlog. So please consider participating at whatever level you can! All contributions are appreciated. This newsletter was prepared for the GOCE by Diannaa (Talk), S Masters (talk), and The Raptor Lettuce talk.

(timestamp for auto-archiving) Fram (talk) 07:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Non-profit?

Jimbo,

I'll make this quick. It says here that "all contributions made to the Wikimedia Foundation are tax deductible". Is that only in terms of money? I ask because there are good, hard working people who spend the equivalent of a 40 hour work-week editing and maintaining Wikipedia alone. Doesn't that kind of contribution, that kind of dedication, count as "tax deductible" under the auspices of Wikimedia?

I'm sure this will be deleted off your talk page in a matter of minutes, but I had to ask if only in the interests of those editors who have made Wikipedia into what it is today. Thank you for your time sir. 68.71.52.18 (talk) 00:19, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation has no control over what is tax deductible - that's up to the various taxing authorities (governments) of the world. In general, in all jurisdictions that I'm aware of, it is not possible to get a break on your taxes for doing volunteer work for a charity. Whether that would be a good thing or not is of course a complex and interesting question, but not one that the Wikimedia Foundation can really do anything about! :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Bummer... I for one, would love some variation of earned income credit for my work! :D Thelmadatter (talk) 00:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you sir.213.229.87.40 (talk) 00:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

In the U.S., you cannot deduct the value of your time, but you can deduct out of pocket expenses. For example, if you pay by the minute (instead of a flat monthly rate) for Internet use and you have documentation showing how many minutes were spent doing things for Wikipedia... More commonly, if you pay for electricity, then you could try to calculate how much electricity you use doing stuff for Wikipedia and how much it costs you. Do not take this too far; if your home computer breaks and you have to go to the public library to work, and you say that you went there only to do stuff for Wikipedia there, and you try to claim the fuel used driving there, the IRS is not going to believe you... 71.109.145.81 (talk) 19:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

categorization of living people

religious and non religious categorization of living people

Hi Jimmy, in January you were added by User:Metal termite to this list List_of_nontheists_(surnames_T_to_Z) using this supporting citation http://bigthink.com/ideas/4870. Would you help clear this up, are your comments in that link the type of comments that should be allowing us to categorize living people as affiliated with this or that philosophy or group. My position would be, no, in the quoted text, atheism and your self identification or affiliation to that group or philosophy is not mentioned in the dialog. You say you are a complete non believer but don't truly specify if this is aligned to an atheist doctrine. Off2riorob (talk) 09:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that, in general, such lists are problematic in a lot of ways. However, if we do have a list like this it should likely be limited to people who are notably non-theist. I'm doubt that I am notably so, as I do not engage in any activities around that, i.e. I don't make speeches about it, I am not the member of any organizations devoted to it, etc. The quote, in particular, is not a very good one because without context, someone might assume that I am a nihilist. I believe lots of things. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Appreciate your comment. I agree that the question, is this actually noteworthy in the life of this person should be high on our list of inclusion criteria. Just to let you know, the question arose out of a little discussion at the BLPN. As per this discussion, removedOff2riorob (talk) 18:15, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

List like these always seem to be a little sloppy (perhaps someone has changed their mind, but nevermind we've got a quote so that'll do) and a bit campaigning (looks at all these atheists!). I agree that such should be confined to those notable for the ideology in question, or better use a category. Your religious views, if significant, belong on your biography.--Scott Mac 18:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

There is a subtle difference between nihilist and nihilist but I am glad you are neither lol – Wikipedia would be more uncyclopedia than encyclopedia :¬)

The list being renamed from atheist to nontheist seems a little strange as atheist and nontheist are the same - atheism does not preclude religious beliefs - it would be possible to be a Hindu atheist and not believe in any god Chaosdruid (talk) 13:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Except nontheist is a made up word.--Scott Mac 17:36, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I checked out of curiosity and it seems to be used, instead: [1] ; [2]. --Cyclopia^talk 17:49, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

It is still a made-up word. That you can find a neologism on Google proves little. See also[3]--Scott Mac 14:31, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

(just for the sake of geeky discussion) I don't get what your example should prove. If it's used in books and articles, it means it's not made-up, it means it's part of the lexicon of the language. --Cyclopia^talk 14:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• - After a discussion on the talkpage the article is moved back to the title List of atheists. - Off2riorob (talk) 14:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Just curious

Dear Sir, I'm just curious as to whether you think it is alright for admins to call users "d*cks" (but with an i instead of a *)? EVula called me this repeatedly on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, but I didn't realize it was okay to be sweared at by administrators in the process. Just wondering whether this was the future of being part of the WP community? Thanks for your contributions towards society. Sincerely, Njsustain (talk) 18:26, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

See WP:DICK. It isn't good to call someone a dick, but it is even better not to be one.--Scott Mac 18:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing up the acceptable etiquette here on WP, sad as it apparently is. Njsustain (talk) 18:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Context: I said "I honestly think Njsustain is being a bit of a dick here." The fact that you're commenting about this all over the place after saying you were done with the content debate (where you were insulting another editor, for the record) just makes me feel pretty damn sure of my initial reaction. (yes, I just used profanity; oh well) EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

The fact that you keep trying to defend your actions just makes me feel pretty dams sure that your actions were indeed inappropriate. Oh well. Njsustain (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I think administrators should never call other users "dicks" under any circumstances whatsoever. It's not the worst thing in the world, of course, but neither does that make it ok.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

It may be a largely semantic debate, but (personally) I think there's a difference between saying "you're a dick" and "you're acting like a dick". The latter is the correct context for the statement (direct link to the thread can be found at WP:ANI#Disruption by User Njsustain). EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough, but notice the impact here. Instead of focusing on the content dispute, which is a perfectly legitimate one, the complainant has degenerated into anger over behavior. (Notice that in saying that the dispute is a legitimate one, I'm not taking sides on who is right in the dispute.) I still think it is best to avoid personal attacks and language which may tend to inflame a dispute rather than calming it. We all fail in this at times, of course, I'm not blaming you or attacking you for it. I'm just saying, it's best if we don't do that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:01, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

That's a fair stance. I honestly didn't think it would incense the situation as much as it did, but then again, I've got a considerably thicker skin than some. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:11, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'm wondering if the article in question meets WP:GNG and if it does I'm wondering if the policy needs to be fixed. There are millions of restaurants that have similar coverage in local media because they are popular and successful to some degree at PR. I wonder what benefit it is to have articles on them in an encyclopedia. We're not Zagat's, Citisearch or Yelp the last time I checked. I would propose that a majority of articles in Category:Restaurants in the United States by state should not exist here at Wikipedia but maybe my opinion is not shared by others. It strikes me that the type of coverage they get in local media, in the "lifestyle section" type areas of newspapers and magazines, is not a result of the type of notability we are concerned with here but instead local popularity and good PR. Shouldn't there be something other than this type of coverage necessary for a consumer based commercial establishment? I'm curious about your opinion on this.Griswaldo (talk) 13:45, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:CORP applies to any business that has an article on Wikipedia. If they fail to meet the notability guidelines, they shouldn't have an article. ----moreno oso (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Does this one meet that policy? If it does, once again I pose the broader question, should it meet that policy? Are restaurant reviews and lifestyle articles about popular eateries the types of coverage we want to use to write encyclopedia articles with?Griswaldo (talk) 14:02, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Let me ask a more specific question. Are restaurant reviews considered news, and given the answer to that how should they be considered when we talk about things like "significant coverage" and notability criteria?Griswaldo (talk) 14:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not up to me to decide policy at that level of scale, and so I offer only a general opinion. I think that having such articles is not within the scope of Wikipedia for a number of reasons, more or less along the lines that Griswaldo has outlined. It should be noted, since it accidentally and foolishly made headlines a few years ago, that I started the entry Mzoli's, but I did so on the premise that the restaurant is culturally interesting, as it has been popular with both whites and blacks in a South African township, and because of various complexities surrounding its impact on the community.

A quite nice local wine bar, unless it has some wider impact, isn't really the same thing.

There are a number of reasons we might not want such articles - the article we have now is a case in point - it reads like an advertisement for the restaurant, and having lots and lots of these would surely invite lots more local businesses to try to get an article in Wikipedia. This will lead to a lot of difficult maintenance issues, etc.

On the other hand, it can be argued, and surely will be argued, and there are valid points here, that as long as there is coverage in reliable sources, why not have it? If, as in this case, all the coverage is favorable, so that all one can really say about the restaurant is that it seems delightful, then so be it. (Note well: I don't think anyone is arguing that this is a restaurant like El Bulli which is famous for having a major impact on how people think about cuisine, etc.)

I think this is a discussion worth having.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:41, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Article is also in the queue to receive DYK hook, wiki front page publicity.Off2riorob (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I started a discussion here as well -Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(organizations_and_companies)#Restaurant_notability. The first response has been that the article fails WP:CORP because the coverage is all local and regional. The fact that it is in line for Did You Know seems highly suspect to me. The fact that any restaurant would be in line for DYK as a general item of interest, and not in relation to a significant news item, seem completely ridiculous. How is that not simply PR being done on our part? This is exactly the kind of thing that is troubling me.Griswaldo (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you completely. I just took a quick look to try to figure out where to object to it appearing in DYK until some issues are resolved, but I couldn't figure it out. (I've never had anything to do with the DYK process. Do you know where I should object?) My view is that this DYK listing should at a minimum be delayed by a couple of weeks - this isn't a "timely" issue and reflecting on it will be a good thing. I will ask Cirt on his talk page if he will support this delay.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:26, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Hooks been removed Off2riorob (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Original point

Jimbo, I have to say that I'm still a little bit concerned about the reception that Njsustain received when s/he tried to take on this matter originally. I know you are not the enforcer of behavioral rules around here but I wanted to make this comment out loud because the original discussion was about that reception. Njsustain has probably learned something about better ways to handle these types of issues but it is very disheartening to see several admins on AN/I overlook the very clear issues with the entry to the benefit of a fellow admin. Njsustain clearly had a very relevant gripe here, and it would be good to know that admins hanging around AN/I will evaluate these things a bit more thoroughly before jumping to their buddy's defense. I hope they are also learning from this incident as I'm sure Nj is. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 19:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem is, people have different thresholds for what constitutes civility. I have a box on my userpage telling people they are free to swear and curse as much as they desire, because I understand that people sometimes need to vent. I don't mind profanity at all, but there are those who do, and it's sometimes hard to tell who'll be offended by what. If someone told me that my work on an article was a "pile of goddamned shit", I wouldn't have any problem with it as long as they could point to a reson why. I may disagree, but at least I know where they're coming from. Others don't take to that so kindly, so it's a bit confusing. As to calling someone a dick, I suppose if you have someone who hasn't read WP:DICK that it could be seen as offensive, but as someone who's only been around for 5 months, I quickly picked up on the fact that saying someone is a dick on Wikipedia isn't the same as saying that in real life. But that's just my take. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 20:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm less concerned about the "dick" comment than the hostility minus any real attempt to look into the situation (the second part especially).Griswaldo (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

• - I have sent the article to AFD for discussion here. Off2riorob (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

@EVula, According to WP:DICK, "Telling someone "Don't be a dick" is usually a dick-move — especially if it's true. It upsets the other person and it reduces the chance that they'll listen to what you say." So it makes yourself a DICK if you have called Njsustain a dick, according to the essay that you have used to call him a dick!

@Jimbo: What kind of essays or policies are these things? Are we going to have also WP:ANUS, WP:PUSSY and WP:TIT in the near future?--Policy writer (talk) 02:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:BEANS- now that you've said that, someone will do it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk) 02:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

sir

Thank you. Cwill151 (talk) 05:40, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Mimi Macpherson

Hi Jimbo. I just wanted to follow up on our discussion about Mimi Macpherson from a little while back, and ascertain the status of your communications with her. Thanks, NW (Talk) 14:47, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm off to bed now, but I'll check on this tomorrow if I can. I'll be sending her an email, and since she's in Australia, it will probably be a couple of days for the cycle to complete.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Death anomalies

Hi Jimbo, further to our chat at Talk:Friedrich von Bömches, I was wondering if you would like to make a comment in this proposed signpost article? ϢereSpielChequers 16:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Sure, how about something like this: "I'm excited to see this kind of machine-assisted editing. In the foreseeable future, it will not be possible for machines to actually make judgment calls about editorial matters, but it is entirely possible for this type of work, as well as more advanced semantic analysis, to provide useful assistance to human editors, particularly in finding contradictions and anomalies. Merlissimo is a rock star!"--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Wow! That's even more commas in one sentence that I usually manage! ;) --Tango (talk) 17:14, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, don't know if it will make today's signpost, but its submitted. Any suggestions as to how else I could promote this to other wikis - I'm afraid it all started just too late to Gdansk. ϢereSpielChequers 17:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley

Jimbo, following the comments from you and others on the BLP noticeboard about the coverage of Lord Monckton's relationship with the House of Lords, I've posted a proposed revised text at Talk:Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley‎#Monckton and Parliament. Any views you might have would be appreciated. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Climategate name change debate

Jimbo, there is another debate on the proper name for the Climatic Research Unit email controversy, proposing that it be renamed to Climategate per Wikipedia:Article titles#Neutrality and article titles which states in part: True neutrality means we do not impose our opinions over that of the sources, even when our opinion is that the name used by the sources is judgmental.

Your prior comments on the issued are being argued by both sides to infer your support of their position, and I thought it might be easier just to ask you to comment on it, so there is no question. Thanks, GregJackP Boomer! 22:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, GregJackP Boomer! 23:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

In keeping with my comment in that discussion, I would request that, rather than clarifying his past statements, Jimbo weigh-in on whether this is an issue worthy of ArbCom or not. I would even go so far as to ask that he refer the matter there himself, removing further delay in having to apply to hear the matter (however, if he feels arbitration would be warranted but does not wish to wield that sort of influence on the proceedings, I would be willing to put a few days into a proper application).

The amount of time being expended in further debating the matter passed into a state of unconstructive long ago and even if there existed some middle ground on which mediation could find purchase, I cannot fathom the results would be accepted by current (or future) parties for very long. Additionally, a final decision through arbitration would set important precedent in the project's convention for article titles.
--K10wnsta (talk) 08:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Other than some general carping on all sides, there does not appear to me to be a breakdown of constructive dialog on this particular topic. Yes, there are predictable partisans (on both sides) who are unfairly trying to paint others. Yes, there is a small amount of heat. But mostly this is a civilized attempt to find consensus. The previous compromise, which I still weakly support even though I think from a content perspective it is not the optimal solution yet, is being questioned: there is no harm in that.

The issue I see here is that all sides appear to accept Wikipedia's general conventions for article titles, but no one has yet hit upon the right answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Existence of God.

Wikipedia appears to me like a movement of giving/spreading knowledge to everyone without any anticipation. A great (though not a perfect word) idea and action, I have ever seen.

My topic/questions is.. What do you say about the existence of God ?

Suresh, Hyderabad, India 210.210.13.126 (talk) 09:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)