User talk:Jimbo Wales

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U.S. government is trying to edit Snowden's biography

Here's what happened:

• This edit from a particular IP address changed the wording from "Edward Joseph Snowden is an American dissident" to "Edward Joseph Snowden is an American traitor"
• Go to the IP's User_talk:156.33.241.5 page, and it says that "This IP address, 156.33.241.5, is registered to United States Senate and may be shared by multiple users of a government agency or facility."
• For further confirmation, go to Special:Contributions/156.33.241.5 and click on "GEOLOCATE" and the IP will be traced back to the United States Senate.

By labelling Edward Snowden as a traitor, this IP is pushing a strong POV that clearly violates WP:BLP and was done without consensus from other Wikipedia users, but this is not entirely surprising given that the IP is from the government.

Of course, Im sure Wikipedia obviously welcomes editors who serve in the U. S. Senate. But, at the same time, Im concerned that many senators have already publicly voiced out some very strong opinions regarding Edward Snowden and it absolutely digusts me to learn they're coming over to Wikipedia to push a certain point of view.

And this is certainly not the first time it has happened: Wikipedia:Congressional_staffer_edits shows that government officials have had a long history of coming to Wikipedia to push a certain POV, especially those working at the United States Senate. -A1candidate (talk) 10:45, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

While it seems questionable that U.S. government facilities should be used to edit Wikipedia, it seems unlikely to me that only senators themselves have access to the web from such facilities. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:59, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

In that case, a rangeblock would be sensible, in order to protect the reputations of the senators from people who share their facilities. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Only 1 edit late on a Friday in D.C. In many U.S. Government offices, such as in Washington, D.C., visitors or family might enter offices near the end of the workday, depending on security clearances of visitors, and perhaps use someone's office desktop computer to edit WP. I have had several end-of-day visitors come to my offices in various U.S. cities, so it is common and when restricted, sometimes computer use is only caught afterward, reminding them it is not generally allowed. Undoing the computer access, to remove an edit, could be considered an even greater risk of unauthorized usage in "collusion" with a friend, so a one-edit update would likely slip past security procedures in outer offices. Even a well-meaning user might be in a hurry, as I have often edited with IP addresses at several hotels, when hurrying, especially worried I might forget to logout when rushing away from the computer. Anyway, D.C. is a politically-obsessed town, not planning the "annual strawberry festival" nor "Jazz fest" nor "fishing rodeo" nor championship playoff game, so even friends might come to an office with a political mindset to voice their politics on someone's computer at end-of-day. Instead, look for a pattern of many edits, at earlier hours of the day, as evidence of in-house activity. -Wikid77 14:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't block a range of IP's for one edit unless research shows there is history of abuse. I would protect that highly visible article so any changes have to be discussed. Kumioko (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

For me, the question is why could an IP edit the Snowden page to begin with? AutomaticStrikeout  ?  15:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Why not? Is the article experiencing heavy vandalism from logged-out editors? Or have we abandoned the whole "anyone can edit" thing? --108.38.191.162 (talk) 20:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe people bit on this bait. One minor edit is no reason for blocking, naming and shaming, or any other of the usual aggressive-borderline-psycho approaches to administration that are popular on Wikipedia. I happen to agree with the "dissident" interpretation, but in truth it is not much more POV to call him a "traitor" than to call him that, as you will find about as many Americans with either opinion. (Of course, "traitor" in respectable articles should be limited to those associated with treason in the formal sense, and other BLP technicalities such as charges and conviction apply) This kind of change is part of the natural give and take of Wikipedia and needs no further comment. Even looking up where the IP was is a kind of opposition research which should be restricted under a fair interpretation of WP:OUTING only to genuine administrative processes, not winning a content dispute. Wnt (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I often approach the administration on Wikipedia in an aggressive-borderline-psycho fashion; it helps to keep them on their toes. Aside from that, I feel the need to point out to you that WP:NPOV is not decided by what the American public thinks. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 16:32, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd be more interested to see the content of ip edits made from other geolocations. But I think this scenario may have been examined here before? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• While I personally am fine with the description of Snowden as a "dissident," it has been pointed out in a Wikipediocracy thread that the description "whistleblower" is more neutral. Carrite (talk) 17:27, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I hadn't really thought about it but I prefer the term whistleblower myself. Although dissident is technically true, I think its more neautral and more accurate to say whistleblower. Kumioko (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Good luck with that. Some Wikipedians think the U.S. Congress controls the definitions of that word: User_talk:NeilN#Edward_Snowden_Infobox_.22disclosure.22_reversion --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:38, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Well, at least The Independent, BBC and Der Spiegel (as well as the popular UK Daily Express and Daily Mail) all agree with you (in fact, if you're really interested, here's some German spillover coverage: [1]). Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Actually, I think the most neutral approach is to not label him at all as he is not seen as a whistleblower by some. He is most widely described as a leaker, though I think it is simpler to say he leaked x information or was the leak for x information.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

This is certainly not the first time it has happened. WP:CONGRESS shows that government officials have had a long history of coming to Wikipedia to push a certain POV, especially those working at the United States Senate, and WP:CONGRESS says: "Further investigation by Wikipedia members discovered well over a thousand edits by IP addresses allocated to the US House of Representatives and U. S. Senate. These edits had, among others, added libelous statements, removed content with malice, added childish insults, and violated Wikipedia Policy." Which brings me to my point: This edit labelling Edward Snowden as a traitor is just the latest in a series of similar edits with heavy POV issues that borders on vandalism. Im just wondering if something needs to be done or should we let this go on? -A1candidate (talk) 18:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Schoolblocks are commonly used in situations similar to what you (and others) describe. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:48, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Malice aforethought? Maybe a range block would lead to a very rapid "cure"? But as with many ip edits from institutions and corporations, it may be more enlightening to see the true colours of those who work there? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I hate to pour cold water on the persecution complex of some people, but it's massively more likely that the edit is from some bored Congressional page than an organized government propaganda campaign. --108.38.191.162 (talk)

Dear IP, the issue at hand is this: Why do government employees have so much time to edit Wikipedia in the first place?. Shouldn't they have more important things to do like making good on their promises and ensuring welfare for the average citizen? Obviously, there's nothing wrong for them to edit Wikipedia, especially when its done in private.

If you're not familiar with the concept of U.S. congressional pages, did you follow the link I helpfully provided? They're teenagers who do it as a short-term job, generally to get experience in the workings of U.S. government. Several of my classmates at U.S. public school did it. And do you really think every person associated with Congress in any way (which includes U.S. Capitol police, janitors, receptionists, tour guides, etc. etc.) spends every second of their on-the-job time doing nothing but working with laser-like focus on their tasks? Ever heard of "down time" or lunch breaks?

Basically my point is this is all a ridiculous overreaction. I understand a lot of people here have strong feelings about the U.S. government (hey, so do I!) but trying to turn a single edit from some random person with access to the Congressional LAN into some grand scandal is just going to make you look like a bunch of ridiculous zealots. Where are the multiple talk page and noticeboard threads when some anonymous person editing from Anytown, U.S.A. High School makes a single edit to the school's article changing "Principal John Doe has received two awards from..." to "Principal John Doe has received two thumbs down from..."?

And do you really think a disinformation campaign by the U.S. government would be that inept? "Hey, let's fire up the Senate computers and go perform some obvious vandalism on Wikipedia articles!" Come on, give them at least a little credit. Do you really think it would be difficult for some three-letter agency to buy access to a few dozen remote systems in various spots around the world and use them to insert benign-looking falsehoods into articles? --108.38.191.162 (talk) 21:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

People have lunchbreaks, and even when not on break aren't being productive all the time. Does it matter if instead of chatting by the watercooler, employees are editing wikipedia? -mattbuck (Talk) 09:58, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

But I dont think they should be doing it at a governmental institution. Not to mention that a significant portion of edits coming from governmental IP addresses repeatedly violate WP's policy, I feel that this is happening more often than normal IP addresses. -A1candidate (talk) 20:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I have big reservations about a "whistleblower" who hides in China and Russia and asks Cuba and Venezuela for an asylum. 76.126.140.123 (talk) 20:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, a lifetime in jail ain't so bad, is it. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid the American Indians could find the link you used in your comment offensive, and I think an American jail is a better choice than Cuba. Besides a real whistleblower should not be afraid of the American justice system. It is much more transparent and much more fairer than Wikipedia's justice.76.126.140.123 (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid they might. Having tried neither of the three, it's hard to judge. But a package deal is available, I hear. You're quite right about "Wiki-justice" of course, normally opaque, but may become temporarily transparent when things get really frosty. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Someone from a federal building added some POV content/borderline vandalism to an article. Federal employees and politicians are people too, with the same flaws as everyone else, and can violate wikipedia policy like everyone else. I don't think there is much to discuss here, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:38, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Like I said, a schoolblock is appropriate if needed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

In case it isn't obvious, I think that blocking 535 congressmen, plus a retinue of, I dunno, two, five people each, plus visitors ... over one small edit, and ancient history ... would be more than absurd. It sounds like some people want to report a gag news story if they have to farm it themselves. The whole WP:Congress thing seems like it goes beyond what is allowed by WP:OUTING. We're not here to punish people for editing while being Congressmen. Wnt (talk) 02:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

• Without knowing who used those IP addresses, whether congressional staffers or perhaps end-of-day visitors, then there is no way to conclude the U.S. Congress, per se, has a pattern of WP editing. -Wikid77 16:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
• As far as the content is concerned that was changed, couldn't we mention in the first paragraph of the lead that he is considered "all of the above" as far as dissident, traitor, etc (whistleblower I believe is a legal term, I know as a business owner one of my employees would have to meet certain legal requirements to be considered a whistleblower, namely that they were reporting me for doing something illegal). I'm sure we could find many sources which call Mr. Snowden each those things, thereby meeting our sourcing requirements and BLP rules.Camelbinky (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
  • ... did someone mention the very reliable Daily Mail? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

At any rate, until Snowden is tried and found guilty of being a traitor, no one, not even our Congressmen or Senators or our President, should be allowed to call him a "traitor". Who knows what the future holds? He may wind up being held as an American hero, remember Daniel Ellsberg? Also Boyce and Lee did much worse, revealing our codes during wartime.(Mugginsx (talk) 14:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

VE usage drops 40% but severe bugs continue

Update: Monday sample 10% VE, down only 27%, weekend 20% lower (see below). -Wikid77 16:44, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

By 3 August 2013, the VisualEditor had finally dropped from 14% to only 8.2% of daily edits (in a sample of 2,000 3,000 edits), but the severe VE bugs (or problems) in August continued due to the complexity of handling intricate nested templates and improper markup already stored in pages. Edit-counts were compared as relative levels, to reduce the impacts of Saturday-editing patterns. Meanwhile, IP editing continued even-keel, at 27% of total edits, regardless of VE usage levels. Several people have reported total failure of VE edit-save during some medium to large-scale edits in VE, while some large pages fail to even parse/render when editing. Limits to the Parsoid parser still allow unclosed quotation marks, in older pages, to trigger unexpected duplications of nearby text in VE. Hence, the Parsoid interface will need to be hardened to withstand (and auto-recover) from invalid markup stored in older pages. That is a common and complex problem in computer science, to improve the "robustness" of software to recover from invalid data in prior files. Even computer languages have that problem, where a new compiler will reject prior source code which allowed minor bugs to exist in older software, but now flags the compilation as invalid syntax. So, VE not only needs to handle errors during user editing, but also recover from prior markup errors saved months ago in older pages (such as unclosed quotes: class="wikitable). Currently, when VE (or Parsoid) encounters prior invalid markup, then VE often inserts peculiar garbling of nearby text into the edited page. Another massive problem is with nested markup, or nested templates, for inserting a template call into each parameter of another template being inserted, as a recursive problem of VE-editing inside the parameter markup being added, while VE-editing the page. Then, there is the issue of keeping the user aware of the edit-level, of inserting a triple-nested template into a parameter of another double-nested template parameter, being added into the first template being inserted into the page. Such complex issues of multi-nesting and auto-recovery would likely require months to design, review, implement, test, and document in the software specs. Fortunately, 91.5% of editing continues to use the trusted wikitext editor. Update: The recent IP edits are 20% VE (down from 30% last week), and old/new username-based edits are 3% VE (formerly 9%), so VE usage is 67% lower for usernames, while IP VE edits are down 33%. -Wikid77 12:11/14:29, 3 August, 16:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I think a big reason for this is the ongoing failure of the development team to get it to work on several versions of popular browsers. Further evidence the software was not and is not ready for full implementation. Its still breaking too many things when it is used. Kumioko (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• Is there a way to tell which browsers and platforms are having more problems or user opt out rates than others from our end?--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Yeah sort of. Most of the problems are related to non IEbrowsers because IE is still blocked because they can't get the software to work with it. Once they get that fixed you can count on a lot more problems. So the bugs are actually being minimized for the moment because several of the most widely used browsers can't be used at all. Kumioko (talk) 20:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

That explains why I either don't use it or shut it off. I use IE and can't remember if it failed to work or I shut it off.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah its currently disabled for IE 8-10 and it will never work with anything less than 8 due to limitations in the browser. Kumioko (talk) 21:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

• VE usage down by half, mirrors a passing fad: Because the VE-editor usage is down over 40%, in one week (sample of 3,000 edits on Saturday), the large drop-off resembles a passing fad, where the drop-off should exceed 60% within another week, with wikitext-editor usage rising to 94%, while VE drops below 5.6% (60% of 14%). It appears like, "Been there. Done that. No thank you". Meanwhile, many VE bugs seem to have been fixed (which should attract more editors), but severe problems remain, such as easy tampering with headings and one extra backspace will delete the entire infobox (without warning, which one user stated for reason to avoid VE). For energetic users making medium to large-scale edits, several experienced users have reported entire failure of VE edit-save, losing all tedious keystrokes as a colossal "waste" of their time. Even with later fixes, it might be "cry-wolf software" where few still believe the claims of fixes coming soon, and the taste of VE has soured for them. Again, the massive decline of nearly half of users, so quickly, seems to indicate many people merely losing interest, as if a passing fad which offered little benefit for long-term use. Many know the adage, "First impressions mean everything," so never release software with major bugs, or many users will lose confidence for later fixes and dread future usage. That is why we were ultra-careful to test the new Lua-based wp:CS1 cites in March 2013, before releasing the new Module:Citation/CS1 software to reformat 1 million affected pages as 2x-3x times faster. -Wikid77 16:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "First impressions mean everything," - something I've never seen acknowledged by the WMF. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Monday 5 August sample had 10% VE, down only 27%: A similar sample of 5,500 edits across Monday, 5 August 2013, averaged 10.1% VE edits, compared to Saturday/Sunday levels of 8.3% which were 20% lower than Monday. The strong uptick in Monday's VE edits refutes any notion of free-fall rejection of VE, but rather confirms the somewhat reduced, but sustained, activity during the prior week. Among those 5,500 edits, half of 559 VE edits (49%) were by anon IP edits, which means IP users had double the levels of username-based VE edits, as half of total when overall IP edits are only 28% compared to 72% username-based edits. So, the pattern might be weekend edits would be 20% lower for VE, while weekday edits would resume higher VE-edit levels but only 10% of total, with wikitext edits holding 90% as old-style editing. -Wikid77 16:44, 5 August, 09:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!!!!!! For calling out Cameron

Much appreciated. Though IMHO this article missed the most ridiculous part of his proposal, a ban on "simulated rape porn". The problem with that is that people would be sent to jail for three years based on the frame of mind of a fictional character in a movie and perhaps associate books and author commentary - after all, the actor is a consenting adult, and the audience knows that. Wnt (talk) 00:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Just FYI, on that subject: simulated child pornography is already outlawed in many jurisdictions, including the United Kingdom. Robofish (talk) 02:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Without condoning those laws, I should note the important difference that fairly often (but never always) the viewer of legal porn can tell that a photo is not simulated child porn. But an average person who goes onto Bing and requests uncensored photos of an actress cannot be sure, looking at a still screen capture, that she was not playing a role in a movie where she was supposedly being raped. This would ideally position the law, in conjunction with a mandatory filter that records all images viewed, for use in prosecutorial terrorism. The political consent for prosecuting all porn viewers can't be manufactured, but the message can be sent that any of them could at any time find himself being cast as a would-be rapist and sent to jail. Wnt (talk) 04:12, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually the law change would probably make things simpler for viewers. I haven't read the law in detail but it seems unlikely that non pornographic rape scenes from movies would be caught up by the ban any more then someone viewing a non pornographic scene from a movie of a child being raped would be. Nor would they be caught up by a scene from the movie where the depiction of rape was unclear anymore then they would be caught up by a scene from a movie of simulated child porn where the depiction of a child or the depiction of rape/sex or anything else covered by the law. Of course there would be some gray area but there will always be so e.g. our article mentions some for the simulated child porn laws, such as how to decide if the depiction is actually of a child. (Some countries like NZ, possibly parts of the US and a bunch of non common law countries already have bans on simulated rape porn.) However at the moment, where rape porn is banned but simulated rape porn is not, it would seem very easy for a person to falsely believe the rape porn they are viewing is simulated and so be caught up by the law. This is not to say I agree with the proposed law, I don't have a clear opinion instead I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your argument about the problems with plan to ban simulated rape porn. Nil Einne (talk) 14:12, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The problem with that argument is that apparently there is very little if any real rape porn - here investigators went through clips and found only one they couldn't determine wasn't fake because it was of foreign origin. Of course, that can change! Reportedly there is a $4 billion market in abducting and raping children to produce lucrative black-market videos, and presumably the potential demand for videos appealing to creeps who are not pedophiles is much larger. If everyone making or watching simulated rape videos faced a prison sentence, the ability of the law to prevent people involved from making actual rape footage would be much reduced. So I think that a law like this has the potential to create a new kind of rape, serving a large new organized crime racket. Once such a marketplace is formed, it will be difficult to wipe out even with a repeal of the law -- nor will the people who passed such a law consider the possibility of repeal so long as the problem keeps getting worse. The prospect of being abducted to be used in a rape movie will simply become a new danger that women have to live with, year after year, century after century, as one of the routine ritual sacrifices people make to morality in law. Wnt (talk) 15:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt makes excllent points, and you, sir, are one of those visibly defending the utterly indefensible. 71.127.134.180 (talk) 17:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

If Wnt does, indeed, make excellent points, then I'm going to have to assume that must be in his day job on the production line at a darts manufacturer. I've seen no evidence of that here. In general, I believe the material Wnt posts is about as far removed from a good point as I've seen on this page. I'm sure he's a lovely person, but reality and his theories are seldom comfortable bedfellows. Begoon ^talk 17:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt had made similar points about drugs policies 30 years ago, predicting civil war like circumstances in Mexico. That was dismissed at the time as total baloney. Count Iblis (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I guess prophets are just never recognised in their own time, huh? Or something... Begoon ^talk 18:14, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I understand that carbuncle sees law against obscenity as a tool he can use to track and stop real criminals who do seriously terrible things. However, I honestly believe that the legality of "simulated rape" content is the better way to expose and to prevent crime. I assume that there are, or could be, plenty of amateur and professional investigators who watch the "rape porn" sites and look for any comment that suggests probable cause to investigate a rape. I don't think that driving the phenomenon underground would make their real task - preventing rape - any easier: they might take part in more convictions overall, but if you exclude the casual onlookers and the people who involved only to make money from an underground film, fewer of the original rapists would be caught, and more would be out committing crimes.

Though I did accept legalization about 30 years ago, I actually never predicted the devastation in Mexico - I always assumed air, sea, and Canadian entry would predominate if violence approached such a level. I still don't understand it, unless I suppose that the cartels continually use political pull to see that the other options are more heavily patrolled to prevent competitors from taking root. Wnt (talk) 20:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I just hope nobody dismisses your clarification as "total baloney" completely out of hand. That would be terribly unfair. They should at least read it first. I tried. Begoon ^talk 20:06, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wnt, please don't make statements about what you think my views are on any subject. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I've read that movie directors won't get jailed, what matters is if you can show that you are making a regular movie for the usual audience or if you are going to make a movie that is going to end up on youtube which will be viewed by many adolescents and may then pervert their views on what is normal sex. Now, I don't agree with laws like this, but this is how it is supposed to work. Count Iblis (talk) 12:49, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually there is a way to stop or at least reduce the Internet porn, and it is a great news! It will be interesting to find out if the man is a Wikipedian.71.198.213.113 (talk) 00:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

With all sorts of applications - for example, a hacker could make a simple application to send a duplicate of the incriminating data to SAIC which would be sent by anyone running that version of Firefox who browses to a right-wing article making the rounds on Twitter, say. But yes, this seems intended, together with the Paypal/VISA crackdown on VPNs, to ban the obvious solutions to Cameron's ban - and since these are American companies, that means that people in the U.S. need to be on notice that this appears to be part of a global strategy. We cannot simply point at Britain and laugh at their unconstitutional backwardness; that is incredibly shortsighted. People also need to understand that child pornography is selected as the beginning of censorship, not the end of it. Britain's expansion of the IWF "black box" system, ostensibly directed only at child porn, to censor all sorts of content is only the latest of many such instances. Wnt (talk) 03:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

And videos of real beheadings will always remain legal to upload and view on the internet. There isn't anywhere near the concern that 5 year olds can view such extremely violent videos as there is about 16 year olds viewing porn. Count Iblis (talk) 13:44, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Paris

Last month I promoted Paris to GA. It previously looked like User:Dr. Blofeld/Paris April 2013. As you can see the sourcing was diabolical, poorly sourced, most sources being dead links and shoddy websites, completely overhauled with book sources. I and several others added a wealth of new material including information on the media, healthcare, fashion, music and cuisine etc. I felt it necessary to condense the overly long Demographics and Administration sections to balance out the article. My version of the article is endorsed by some of the experienced editors on here, including User:Tim riley and User:Schodringer's Cat who have produced dozens of GAs and FAs, but a small group of disgruntled editors from the wiki Jurassic period have since crawled out of the woodwork with nothing but unpleasant comments on the changes I've made to "their" article. It's a classic case of WP:OWN and one of the former editors is making a proposal to completely revert my additions and sourcing back to the April version. They also think the lead was better back in April and don't understand that the lead is supposed to summarize a full article. I'd greatly appreciate some input from some of the more experienced individuals here as to whether their proposals are justified or not. I'm not canvassing for support, I'm simply asking some decent editors who watch Jimmy's page compare the article versions and to comment on the issue at Talk:Paris.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:40, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Beware resistance when improving major articles: Many of us have met severe resistance trying to improve major articles, and I estimate to expect work "100x times" slower than rewriting minor articles, for summary, sources, and wider coverage. That is why I favored the "Concise WP" or at least, the wp:micropages where "Paris (micro)" could be the rapid, easier rewrite, as a condensed summary of "Top 30 things to know about Paris". Expect to write 100 micropages faster than haggle over a single major article: "Wikipedia is 10% information and 90% deformation". Unfortunately, I have also met wide resistance in changing the major articles, so it is frustrating to think: "The major articles are read most, but 100x times harder to rewrite for quality" (due to conflicts). This is just "life in the big city" having to handle bureaucratic bottlenecks, so perhaps try to rewrite the subarticles of Paris, instead, with less of the 100x-slower resistance to major improvements. I hope many of us can assist in supporting the rewrite of "Paris" but there is no guarantee weeks of debate would not be futile. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Ditto. Ive been asked to rework Mexico City but I wont touch it for the reasons stated. I have no patience to fight with all the people who would resist having their two cents taken out, no matter how good the rewrite happen to be. This is one major reason I think we should have protection for GA and FA status pages. Then it would be worth the effort to tackle major articles.Thelmadatter (talk) 02:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps rewrite neighborhoods or subarticles as in "Search engine": I was thinking it might be easier to write "Neighborhoods in Mexico City" or the major areas. Several years ago, the page "Search engine" became a trampled sandbox about whatever engines-with-searching, and subarticle "Web search engine" was then expanded as the sourced page about computer search-engine features and history. Eventually, page "Search engine" (containing nonsense) was reset to redirect to "Web search engine" years later. For Mexico, look at the readership levels in stats.grok.se and fix related articles which are read nearly as much as Mexico City (views 4,000/day). Half of readers come via Google, so there is no need to explicitly link inside a trampled page. -Wikid77 09:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I have worked on most of the articles related to the city's boroughs such as Cuauhtémoc, D.F. and notable neighborhoods like Colonia Doctores (both were my apartment is! but give me a heads up on my talk page before you come over :D) I think, however, many prefer to say they contributed something to an article that everyone knows and gets 4,000 hits a day rather than a more obscure article. I think its a case of "too many cooks" and I dont think that will change until we modify the meaning of "everyone can edit" more away from anyone on ANY page (we already limit that with controversial articles). I see no problem with limitations such as protected page or proposed changes on articles that achieve a certain level of quality as ranked by the community.Thelmadatter (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Feedback on Visual Editor

Did you forget us? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=566303654

Did you forget us? (talk) 15:10, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

• Actions of Wikia WYSIWYG editor are different: Many did not know Wikia had a different WYSIWYG text editor (compared to VE), and expected a fast, simple, interface with the VisualEditor to instantly accept "[[link]]" and show "link" but VE refuses. Instead, some users have noted how the Wikia interface will accept markup directly into the page, and quickly toggle (switch back) between the WYSIWYG and markup editing modes (without losing data, imagine that). Recently, users have complained that VE is very slow (crawls with large pages), and I have wondered if a Java applet should be used to quicken the VE interface for many operations, or if JavaScript-only is the best design. They are saying huge JavaScript interfaces tend to be slow, unless on mega-fast computers. Some people suggested to hire Wikia as consultant, but would Wikia people reveal their software secrets(?), knowing clever fixes to the MediaWiki software would be exposed to public inspection. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed; I have no idea why the VE team doesn't want to accept typed wikitext for backwards compatibility. Pinging @Eloquence: and @Jdforrester: in hopes they may explain. 70.59.30.138 (talk) 02:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Can we get some kind of answer? You promised to come back on July 30 and give us an answer. It's been a week. Did you forget us? (talk) 13:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

VE plans were misunderstood last week: A major part of the difficulty has been the complex structure and design plans for VE, whereas last week, people imagined a quick upgrade to allow "[[link]]" and show "link" but VE treats some wikitext as a fatal warning to block the Save of the page. Numerous users have complained that VE is extremely slow as a JavaScript implementation, claiming almost "unusable" on their relatively fast computers, and that is another issue which compounds improvements, especially if new features would be even slower. Hence, it is not easy to comment about VE's future. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:41, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia may contain images and videos which can trigger epileptic seizures and other medical conditions.

While I do have an opinion on this (delete, or at least do some javascript hiding so it doesn't carelessly harm someone) it's under discussion elsewhere so a long discussion here is probably not warranted.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wikipedia:Content disclaimer states Wikipedia may contain images and videos which can trigger epileptic seizures and other medical conditions. This includes one video you previous commented on [2] in the Pokemon article, which is now up for deletion at Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2013_August_4#File:Denno.ogg. Many people believe that the health problems it may cause are not relevant, and it should be kept in the article, that its the victim's fault if some kid clicks it not realizing they are vulnerable to seizures. If someone's child does have a seizure, does the disclaimer page keep Wikipedia from being held accountable? I find that unlikely. Dream Focus 12:14, 5 August 2013 (UTC) Technically it does keep Wikipedia from being held accountable. It's just one's fault for failing to read the fine print... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC) I doubt think that would work. Someone with legal knowledge will hopefully comment on this. If its illegal in America to broadcast this sort of thing on television or in films, then probably illegal to show them on the internet. Dream Focus 12:40, 5 August 2013 (UTC) (edit conflict)User:Dream Focus, please avoid forum shopping. Discussion on the video is already open in three places at the same time: Talk:Dennō_Senshi_Porygon#seizure_video_up_for_deletion, Wikipedia_talk:MEDICINE#Denn.C5.8D_Senshi_Porygon_seizure_video and at Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2013_August_4#File:Denno.ogg. While adding a notification here to the discussions would be a good idea, opening another discussion here makes it harder to get consensus and it is disruptive. I kindly invite everyone who wants to comment on the issue (including Jimbo) to discuss in one of these three already opened venues. -- cyclopiaspeak! 12:42, 5 August 2013 (UTC) I was not forum shopping. I got a message that I had been mentioned on the WikiProject Medicine talk page, so I went and put the video up for deletion, then posted on the talk page of the article that holds it to let people there know there was a discussion about it. Nothing wrong with that. Dream Focus 12:46, 5 August 2013 (UTC) You are forum shopping now. A heads up on Jimbo page is more than fine, but adding another discussion to the already fragmented one is disruptive and it doesn't help gather consensus (one way or the other). -- cyclopiaspeak! 12:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC) I mentioned it, and also asked if the disclaimer really kept people from suing Wikipedia. Totally different discussion which should be had. Dream Focus 12:51, 5 August 2013 (UTC) Note that at Talk:Dennō_Senshi_Porygon#seizure_video_up_for_deletion after I made a simple statement that the file was up for deletion, YOU then started a discussion. Not please lets stay on topic and not get off on something unrelated. Is Wikipedia legally protected? Dream Focus 13:01, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Wealthfront marketing

Jimbo, a few days ago I received an e-mail from your friend Gil Penchina. The e-mail subject was I saved $10k in taxes last year - through wealthfront. (Gil is an investor in Wealthfront, and apparently he's also a customer and trying to build a larger base of clientele.) Wanting to learn a little more about the company, I checked out Wikipedia's article about Wealthfront, since I know of Wikipedia's excellent reputation for "neutral point of view". The article is emblazoned with a notice: "This article contains wording that promotes the subject in a subjective manner without imparting real information." That notice was placed there by a well-known Wikimedia Foundation employee! The article had been created by and predominantly tended to by a User:Juliabarrett. Now, I know we shouldn't be outing anyone on Wikipedia, but do you think that the Julia Barrett who was director of marketing at Wealthfront could maybe be related to the Wikipedia User:Juliabarrett? Another editor who is heavily focused on the article is User:74.95.204.173, who seems to be located very close to Wealthfront headquarters. Julia Barrett is a user of Quora, too, which is a site that you're invested in. Maybe you could ask her what she thinks of your Bright Line Rule against conflicted editors publishing advocacy content in Wikipedia about the subject with which they're affiliated? I know we can't just delete the Wealthfront article, because that would make Gil Penchina and Julia Barrett pretty sad, right? - 2001:558:1400:10:3DF0:CBA6:AEBF:FD73 (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Allow me to correct one error of yours: User:Ironholds is not a WMF employee. Although they are the same person as User:Okeyes (WMF), when they are using their Ironholds account, we have to pretend that they are not a WMF employee, but someone with no more affiliation to the WMF than any other editor. This is doubly true on IRC where you not only have to pretend that their conduct and words have no relationship to the WMF, but you have to pretend that things didn't happen because you aren't allowed to log those (public) IRC channels (which are not controlled by the WMF) and you might get blocked for posting logs on-wiki. Mindboggling, isn't it? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

The notice was added by me, yes, in my personal capacity. I have absolutely no familiarity with or involvement with Waterfront; 5 seconds taken to look at my contributions would have shown that one of my primary activities as an editor is new page patrol, which is where I found this article. Ironholds (talk) 19:08, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

I suppose this is an unusual place to place a deletion notice, but upon reading the article, I have placed a G11 speedy deletion tag on it for promotionalism, as it is so contaminated with advertising as to be in my opinion unrewritable by normal editing. If the speedy should be denied, I will take it to AfD. It's a sophisticated attempt to avoid the normal style of promotional editing,but it's promotional editing nonetheless. I thank my friend Ironholds for spotting it--the purpose of tagging is to call a problem to the attention of other editors. DGG ( talk ) 23:25, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Socialtext

Inquiry to me based on false claims. I do not sit on the board of Socialtext, and have not for many years. Socialtext no longer exists, and I don't know anyone at the company that acquired them. I haven't looked at the article but of course my view is that if it needs improvement, it should be improved.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Jimbo, you sit on the board of the company, Socialtext. That prompted me to learn a little more about the company, so I checked out Wikipedia's article about Socialtext, since I know of Wikipedia's excellent reputation for "neutral point of view". For the past few months, the article has carried this notice at the top: "This article relies on references to primary sources. Please add references to secondary or tertiary sources." I know that the basic foundation of the General notability guideline is that a Wikipedia article subject should have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Let's take a look at the sources being used to document Socialtext here in Wikipedia. Footnote #1 is a link to the company's own website. Footnote #2 is a link to the website of the company owned by the same private equity firm that bought out Socialtext. Footnote #3 is a dead link to the investment firm that previously had money in Socialtext. Footnote #4 is a dead link to another investment firm that previously had money in Socialtext. Footnote #5 is a semi-dead link to another company that previously had money in Socialtext. There are also two external links for the reader to explore: Link #1 goes to Socialtext's home page. Link #2 goes to a 2003 New York Times article that does discuss Socialtext for a few paragraphs, on the second page of the article. That's it. I am left to wonder who created this Wikipedia article about Socialtext? Ah, I see it was created by a now elected member of the Wikimedia Foundation board of trustees, on whose board you also sit. It's not like Klein was sitting on the WMF board when he created the Wikipedia article about Socialtext, though, so it's all okay, I'm sure. We are left with the problem of this Socialtext article, though -- very flimsy on sources. And, look -- here's Socialtext's own Jeff Brainard updating Wikipedia with details about Socialtext (if we are to assume that Jlbrainard is Jeff Brainard). And here's a future Wikimedia Foundation staff member touching up the Socialtext article, too. Also, there's a single-purpose account with an interest in fleshing out the product line-up of Socialtext. Finally, here's Alex Zawel, former marketing guy at Peoplefluent, the company that acquired Socialtext, helping keep Wikipedia up to date with the acquisition news about a year ago. He's only ever made three edits to Wikipedia, all about Peoplefluent. Jimbo, could you remind us again of that Bright Line Rule that you recommend to all editors who may have a conflict of interest surrounding the subject they're wishing to edit in Wikipedia? Thanks! - 2001:558:1400:10:9D10:77B:BAFB:FAEF (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Jimbo has never edited the article so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up here, single purpose account. Take it to AfD. --JaGatalk 17:50, 6 August 2013 (UTC) I don't want the article deleted, dismissive named-user account. I would like it improved. That's what Wikipedia is all about. Recognizing mistakes and then fixing them is what makes the project better. Loftily dismissing evidence of mistakes is what is killing editor retention, so be mindful of that. - 2001:558:1400:10:9D10:77B:BAFB:FAEF (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC) You make a decent case the the article is not notable, and created by people with COI. On those grounds, you should take it to AfD, so your points can be reviewed. If your argument stands, the article should be removed. That would be recognizing mistakes and fixing them to make Wikipedia better. Instead of doing that, you want to hold Jimbo accountable for an article he's never touched, which makes no sense. --JaGatalk 18:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Thank you for recognizing merit in my "case". However, I need to correct you, that I am not holding Jimbo accountable for an article he's never touched. I'm holding him accountable to communicate clearly the principles of his Bright Line Rule to the leadership and staff of (at least) those organizations he leads or advises. You see, it's easy to say that the Bright Line Rule needs to apply to others, but I say that it's especially important to apply that rule to one's own organization, especially if that organization purports to be expert in social media. - 2001:558:1400:10:9D10:77B:BAFB:FAEF (talk) 18:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Alternatively you could hold the actual editors who were involved with the article accountable and communicate your concerns with them directly. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 18:26, 6 August 2013 (UTC) @IP editor: If you want the article improved, nothing is preventing you from improving it. Here are a handful of independent sources which might be useful to you: San Jose Mercury News 2005 CNET 2006 PC Magazine 2006 CNET 2009 InformationWeek 2011 PC World, date unknown If you're not particularly interested in the article itself but simply wanted to make a point about Wikipedia's haphazard, head-in-the-sand approach to conflicts of interest, then I'm with you... but the problem is the community, not Jimmy Wales. The community doesn't see anything wrong with BP's public-relations department playing a substantial role in crafting our coverage of BP (a role undisclosed to the casual reader). The community see nothing wrong with the fact that our coverage of the health benefits of Transcendental Meditation is dominated by people with a strong personal (and possibly financial or professional) stake in "proving" its effectiveness - again, without any disclosure of this obvious COI to the casual reader. In the latter case, Jimmy acted to address a conflict of interest and his efforts were overturned resoundingly by ArbCom. So while I agree that Wikipedia's approach to conflicts of interest is inconsistent and frustratingly ignorant, I don't think Jimmy is the one who needs to be convinced. MastCell Talk 18:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Alternatively, maybe the Bright Line Rule is daft, in that it is unenforceable, practically speaking. - 2001:558:1400:10:9D10:77B:BAFB:FAEF (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Yes, that's the #1 excuse proffered for Wikipedia's abject failure to address the issue of conflict of interest. The fact that we can't catch all COI editing apparently means that we shouldn't address any COI editing. I think that's a cop-out, but I'm in the minority - at least the minority of people who frequent the noticeboards. MastCell Talk 19:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC) It's a huge problem. But those tend to be the ones we can't solve. I often wonder if it stems from the fact that we basically all have a COI, in that we all have opinions and points of view, and we all let that or prevent that control our editing to different degrees. That's inescapable - we all have POVs, which are just really mini COIs. So it becomes, instead of a "bright-line" rule, a moveable, gameable weapon. I probably didn't express that very well - but I guess what I'm saying is, yes, we need to enforce COI rules much better, but we need first to be much clearer what they are. I cringe at the whole BP type of thing, and the "PR assistance" initiatives/projects that basically just, despite some good intentions, set up our editors as willing "useful idiots" for the PR people to hide behind. But I don't have the answers. I do know it's broken, though. Begoon talk 19:39, 6 August 2013 (UTC) No. COI and POV are different because of how they are demonstrated. A COI is present when by virtue of the person's relationship with a subject, the assumption must be that anything they write is not impartial. It is demonstrated by showing the relationship. POV does not involve a relationship. A POV is shown when someone writes something with a POV (usually judged against all relevant reliable sources) -- not by showing a relationship. To put it another way, COI editing is barred because of the appearance of impropriety, whereas POV is barred upon actual impropriety.Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:11, 6 August 2013 (UTC) Re the person who created Socialtext 8 years ago, and who is now an elected member of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees: the natural explanation is that a person with an interest in Socialtext would also be interested in the WMF—not really a hanging offense. I have seen a lot of promotional gumph on Wikipedia, and this article is not a problem in any way. Anyone with a genuine concern should either attempt to improve the article, or nominate it for deletion. Johnuniq (talk) 23:38, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Access to deleted images on Commons

Jimbo, as you know, when images are deleted on Commons those images can still be viewed by admins. Without going into the details, I recently contacted Commons' Oversight Committee about nude images whose filenames contained the name of the subject and were uploaded without the subject's consent. I was told by one oversighter "I am not convinced that these images fall under our oversight policy and would prefer them to be taken care of by regular deletion". "Regular deletion" would mean that these images could be viewed by any of the current 271 admins on Commons.

Oversight should be automatic in cases where there is reason to suspect that the subject has not consented to the uploading of the image. Removing the image from public view while leaving it visible to hundreds of people (the vast majority of whom have not identified themselves to the WMF) is unacceptable. While this situation occurs all the time on Commons, it may also occur on any other project that allows image uploads. In the case that I refer to earlier, admins would have had access to naked images of the subject, along with her name. That was more than enough to track her down online, should anyone wish to.

Jimbo, can you help me to get the WMF's Access to nonpublic data policy changed or amended to take this situation into account? Point 6 of the policy seems to say that deleted revisions are not covered by the policy. I do not believe that the intention of the policy is to allow any admin to access non-public information of the nature I have described. How can I get the board to review the policy with my example in mind? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

VisualEditor newsletter for 06 August 2013

It's been almost two weeks since the last newsletter, and a lot of improvements have been made during that time. The main things that people have noticed are significant improvements to speed for typing into long pages (Template:Bug), scrolling (Template:Bug) and deleting (Template:Bug) on large pages. There have also been improvements to references, with the latest being support for list-defined references, which are <ref>s defined inside a <references> block (Template:Bug). Users of Opera 12 and higher have had their web browser removed from the browser black-list, mostly as a result of work by a volunteer developer (Template:Bug). Opera has not been fully white-listed yet, so these users will get an additional warning and request to report problems.

Significant changes were made to the user interface to de-emphasize VisualEditor. This has cut the use of VisualEditor by approximately one-third. You can read about these at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Updates/August 1, 2013, but they include:

• Re-ordering links to the editors to put "Edit source" first and VisualEditor second
• Renaming the link for VisualEditor to "Edit^beta"
• Disabling the animation for section editing.
• Changing all labels for the classic wikitext editor to say "Edit source", regardless of namespace.

There have also been many smaller fixes, including these:

• Horizontal alignment of images working correctly on more pages (Template:Bug)
• Categories with ':'s in their names (like Category:Wikipedia:Privacy) now work correctly (Template:Bug)
• Magic JavaScript gadgets and tools like sortable tables will now work once the page is saved (Template:Bug)
• Keyboard shortcut for "clear annotations" - now Control+\ or ⌘ Command+\ (Template:Bug)
• Fixed corruption bugs that led to duplicate categories (Template:Bug) and improper collapsing when multiple new references were added in a row (Template:Bug).
• Improvements to display elements: The save dialog in Monobook is restored to normal size (Template:Bug), pop-up notices on save now look the same in VisualEditor as in wikitext editor (Template:Bug), and the popup about using wikitext has a link to the definition of wikitext that now opens in a new window (Template:Bug)

Most of the Wikimedia Foundation staff is traveling this week and next, so no updates are expected until at least August 15th. If you're going to be in Hong Kong for Wikimania 2013, say hello to James Forrester, Philippe Beaudette, and the other members of the VisualEditor team.

As always, if you have questions or suggestions, or if you encounter problems, please let everyone know by posting problem reports at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback and ideas at Wikipedia talk:VisualEditor. Thank you! Whatamidoing (WMF) 23:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)