Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comba Tai: Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. '' |
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Note: If you are seeing this page as a result of an attempt to re-nominate an article for deletion, you must manually edit the AfD nomination links in order to create a new discussion page using the name format of [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PAGENAME (2nd nomination)]]. When you create the new discussion page, please provide a link to this old discussion in your nomination. --> |
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The result was '''delete'''. [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can't sleep, clown will eat me]] 00:03, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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===[[Comba Tai]]=== |
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:{{la|Comba Tai}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Comba Tai|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 July 3#{{anchorencode:Comba Tai}}|View log]])</noinclude> |
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Martial arts system. Although this article is an improvement on previous versions at [[Comba-Tai]] and on this title, it still feels like a vanity piece by Alonzo M. Jones. Is it notable? -- [[User:RHaworth|RHaworth]] 12:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' nn, advert., vanity. [[User:JJL|JJL]] 17:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC) |
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July 3, 2007 -- [User:ajones] -- This article should not be deleted but adjusted ... It is not meant to feel like a vanity piece, although I can see how someone might make that mistake. It was written to illustrate how Comba Tai evolved as a martial art and philosophy here in America. In that regard I had to use the events about me, my grandfather and students that lead to its evolution. Similarly, if we looked at the evolution of most contemporary martial arts (i.e.,Yaw Yan, Jeet Kun Do, Kajukembo) |
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, the founder usually has something to do with the overall philosophy and practice of the martial art system. In order to explain why Comba-Tai students combine various forms of Martial arts, I had to talk about the historicity of the founders experiences. Again, I can see how this might indeed feel like a vanity piece, thus I will go in and remove my name and only allude to me as opposed to making direct references. In addition, those places that I can remove my name all together I will do while trying to maintain the spirit of the evolution of Comba Tai. Is this acceptable? |
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“Is it Notable?” Comba Tai has schools from coast to coast and in for countries (mostly at Military Bases). Recently, it’s Youth development curriculum helped Las Vegas win an “Innovative Best Practice.” Some of it’s students were the pioneers in the early days of MMA. In fact one of it's students Robert Parham was inducted into the "Universal Black Belt Hall of Fame" as "Universal Fighter of the Decade." Oh and by the way, Instructors do not charge for the instruction of Comba-Tai; students pay instructors by giving back to others. |
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*I get 511 Google results for this (51 unique) including one Google News hit to a press release (which seems to be the basis for several others as well). I don't see any outside reliable sources that indicate it's a recognized martial art. However, the [http://www.mararts.org/active/BB1.shtml US Martial Arts Association], which seems on the level, recognizes it - but we still need [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. The article needs a massive amount of cleanup as it stands, as well. '''Delete''' unless some good, solid reliable sources are provided. [[User:Tony Fox|Tony Fox]] <small>[[User_talk:Tony Fox|(arf!)]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Tony Fox|review?]]</small> 20:57, 3 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' for lack of provision of sources to back up notability. The one source given above is a mere trivial mention, one element in a huge list. [[User:Someguy1221|Someguy1221]] 00:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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July 3, 2007 -- [User:ajones]By definition Comba-Tai is a martial art regardless of its recognition by other martial art federations (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts The martial arts, though commonly associated with East Asian cultures, are by no means unique to this region. To delete based on this criteria would be unfair. However, Comba-Tai is recognized by several legitimate Martial art organizations to include the one mentioned: |
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(1) International Combat Martial Art Union Association |
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http://www.icmaua.com/ |
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http://www.icmaua.com/MembersPhotogallery2.htm |
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(2) The international Journal of Combat Martial Arts and Sciences |
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http://www.icmaua.com/Journal2005.htm |
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(3) United States Martial Art Association |
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http://www.mararts.org/active/BB1.shtml |
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(4) American Martial Art Schools |
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http://www.karateclubs.org/MartialArtsSchools.html |
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(5) Steele Cage International Fighting Organization |
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http://www.steelecage.com/ |
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(6) Ozawa International Karate Tournament |
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http://ozawa-tournament.com/Results/2005Results/2005kumite.htm |
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(7): The Universal Martial Art Hall of Fame Recognizes Comba-Tai |
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http://www.fastpitchnetworking.com/pr/pressrelease.cfm?PRID=12495 |
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(8) United States Air Force |
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http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:2WKSibQuYnQJ:www.sheppardsenator.com/archives/2005/090905/b0302.shtml+USAF+World+Combat+Academy+Comba-Tai&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us |
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*'''Comment.''' Except for the one self-published "history" these are all mere trivial mentions of comba-tai. Being "recognized" by any number of other organizations is not proof of notability. Proof of notability is being the ''subject'' of multiple, reliable, independent sources. [[User:Someguy1221|Someguy1221]] 01:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC) |
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July 3, 2007 -- [User:ajones]While Comba-Tai is an Obscure Martial art, it is still recognized as a western martial art http://www.warriorpages.com/martialarts/western_arts.htm. We must remember that up until recently, Gracie Jujitsu was not known outside of Brazil and not recognized by any Legitimate American Martial art Organizations, yet it was a martial art (war like skill) with a history in Brazil. There are many other examples of obscure martial arts that are only recognized by the people that practice them. In fact that is usually how martial arts get recognized (See: Yip Man and Wing Chung). Comba-Tai is a martial art that has been practiced by U.S. servicemen and their families since at least 1984. |
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July 3, 2007 -- [User:ajones] I guess we could provide a list of arguments for both application and non-application of notability. However in this case I think the arguments for non-applicaton of notability are appropriate. This "non-notable" article should remain, its relative obscurity does not make it unencyclopedic or preclude it in any other way. I agree this article could give the impression of self promotion, although that was not what it was intended to do, after all it is easily varifiable that the author has never taken money for this art form but has used it for community service. I do not believe this article should be deleted on the grounds of notability as it has served many military members. I can fax the articles about Comba-Tai writen in Military News Papers. |
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July 4, 2007 -- [User:ajones]I agreed that the article could give the impression of self promotion, so I've tried to alter it as much as possible to take the supposed feel of self promotion from those who may read this into the article. In this regard I have tried to center on its military history. Thank You. |
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*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Organizations|list of Organizations-related deletions]]. </small> <small>-- [[User:Jayvdb|John Vandenberg]] 13:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)</small> |
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*<small>'''Note''': This debate has been included in the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Martial arts|list of Martial arts-related deletions]]. </small> <small>-- [[User:Jayvdb|John Vandenberg]] 13:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)</small> |
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{{relist|[[User:The Evil Spartan|The Evil Spartan]] 17:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)}} |
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*'''Delete''' Notability is not subjective. This has not been discussed specifically (not just mentioned, ''discussed'') by non-trivial third parties completely unrelated to the subject. --[[User:Charlene.fic|<font color="blue" face="Matisse ITC">Charlene</font>]] 18:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Completely agree with the above comment by [[User:Charlene|Charlene]] ! [[User:Redrok84|Redrok84]] 19:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Weak Delete''' Notability appears to be borderline at very best. The article as written does not provide any value to Wikipedia. If it were trimmed, rewritten, and sourced, then I could conceivably flip to a weak keep, but I don't see that happening. --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] 19:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' The article is terrible and from the comments of the creator in this AfD he has not taken the time to learn how to use Wikipedia correctly. The user edits from [[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] and has made 64 edits exculsively to this article and this AfD. Pure vanity, delete it and salt to stop this [[Narcissism|narcissist]] from making more [[WP:VANITY|vanity]] articles. [[User:Darrenhusted|Darrenhusted]] 19:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* {{cross|17}} '''Strong Delete''' This article is so garbled that I had a hard time just reading it, but after I slogged through it It's obvious that it's NN. [[User:VanTucky|<span style="color:#E49B0F">VanTucky</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:VanTucky|(talk)]]</sup> 21:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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'''== Don't Delete ==''' -- I can appreciate your opinions and I think I understand them. Comba-Tai notability is not borderline as I've said above! There are articles published on this art form at military bases in the United States as well as overseas that use Comba-Tai. I would also be interested to read what your definition of pure vanity is, because your link on vanity and narcissist, while insulting, does not apply. Vanity is only vanity if it is the intent of the other to self promote, if the author has described what has occurred, we usually refer to that as an [[Account]] even if it makes us feel uncomfortable. I am guilty of not knowing everything about the use of Wikipedia and you are right, I will have to cut time out of my evening to do that. The article was posted by a student of Comba-Tai to honor the servicemen, families and students of this [[Art]] form around the world. And yes, judging from this discussion, in all honesty, notability is [[Subjective]] , very subjective [[WP:N]]. But please, let us not confuse our subjectivity with the intent of Wikipedia, which is to provide information even if that information might be obscure. Narcissist? Nupedia was an art form that in some ways was started by Jimmy Wales . If we are to know about Nupedia we must have informaton on [[Jimbo_Wales]]. Likewise if we are to know about Wikipedia we must talk about people like Tim Shell , Ben Kovitz and others. Yet at no time should we refer to the metion of their names as narcissistic or vanity, but a necessary link to the formulation of the systems they help design as a service to the world. Sometime well meaning people are able to build systems without vanity. Thank You! User: ajones 1:52, 9 July 2007--[[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] 21:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC)--[[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] 21:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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''' |
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--[[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] 21:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)== Keep =='''A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. |
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"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but less than exclusive. Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. ''' |
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== Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media. ==''' |
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Satisfying this presumption of notability indicates a particular topic is worthy of notice, and may be included in the encyclopedia as a stand-alone article. This presumption can be easily satisfied if someone will give me a fax number. |
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::'''Response''' Um, yeah, the fax number idea doesn't make much sense because to whom would you fax it? Jimbo Wales? heh... Perhaps maybe you can scan the articles in question or something? Also, can you tell us again what these publications are? You said a military publication... If it's just the newsletter for an army base or something like that, it would not be a notable 3rd party source... ---[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] 22:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC) |
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--[[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] 00:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)::'''Response''' Um, yeah it makes perfect sense, I would fax it to anyone on this site who has a sincere interest in making sure that Wikipedia has all notable articles. So Mr. Jaysweet let's have your Fax. Military publications are things like base News Papers for Space and Missile Systems, Keesler Air Force Base, Clark Air Force Base, Lackland Air Force Base and the [[Pacific_Stars_and_Stripes]]. By the way everyone, all base news papers are notable enough to have an international audience. While I am on this subject, let me say, there is no self published History of Comba-Tai. The history of Comba-Tai was published by a completely separate organization, although I can see from the name of the organization that published the article how this could be confusing to people here http://www.blacfoundation.org/board.html. |
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--[[User:209.58.226.226|209.58.226.226]] 03:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)I’ll be away for a few days and I don’t think I will have the opportunity to answer your posts. But I will be sure to answer them when I return. Thank you. |
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First off, you need to sign your posts ''after'' your comments, not before. Otherwise it's hard to read. Second, your sincerity notwithstanding, being able to fax people an article is not a properly formatted and reliable citation per the policy of [[WP:CITE]]. You need to be able to reference it just like any other published or academic reference. And besides, even if this military publication reference to Comba Tai exists and is a suitable source of reliable information, it alone is not enough significant coverage to prove notability. [[User:VanTucky|<span style="color:#E49B0F">VanTucky</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:VanTucky|(talk)]]</sup> 03:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong delete''' per nom. Even if it WAS notable, it would need to be complete re-written: this is an appalling written vanity piece which has no place in this encyclopaedia. Created by [[Special:Contributions/Ras Jones|User:Ras Jones]], and heavily edited by [[Special:Contributions/209.58.226.226|User:209.58.226.226]], both appearing to have no other edits, there appears to be a [[WP:COI|conflict of interest]]. [http://www.google.com/search?q=%22comba+tai%22+-wikipedia+-answers+&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=90&sa=N 49 unique Ghits] attests to its non-[[WP:N|notability]]. [[User:Ohconfucius|Ohconfucius]] 08:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' Self-unsubstantiating, created by a single-use account, supposedly african-originated sport with asian etymology, few ghits contain directly contradictory information. Highly implausible history (Carried over by immigrant Nights Templar to Jones county Missisipi). <font color="#000066">'''[[User:Infrangible|~ Infrangible]]'''</font> 08:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this page. <!--Template:Afd bottom--></div> |
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