Talk:Israel

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Okedem (talk | contribs) at 21:59, 16 October 2006 (→‎Lead). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Archive
Archives

Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

  1. 2002 – 2003
  2. Aug 2003
  3. Aug 2003 – Apr 2004
  4. Apr 2004 – Sep 2004
  5. Oct 2004 – Jan 2005
  6. Jan 2005 – Aug 2005
  7. Aug 2005 – Sep 2005
  8. Sep 2005 – Oct 2005
  9. Oct 2005 – Apr 2006
  10. Apr 2006 – Jun 2006
  11. Jun 2006 – Jul 2006
  12. Jun 2006 – Jul 2006
  13. Jul 2006 – Aug 2006
  14. Aug 2006 – Aug 2006
  15. Aug 2006 – Sep 2006
  16. Sep 2006 – Oct 2006
  17. Oct 2006 – Oct 2006

Terminology Palestinian vs. Arab

I would like to propose that we make a differentiation between the labelling of the Arab and Palestinian populations for purposes of clarity and accuracy. As it is, the text doesn't make sense to the reader looking for information on Israel and the Palestinians in the period before the 1970s. It's as though Golda Meir wrote this article in her "Palestinians don't exist" phase which is a pretty serious NPOV oversight, no? I would be happy to go through the article and make changes as necessary, if there are others who would support the move. Tiamut 21:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Okay, how about this version (from Dianelos' suggestion, incorporating my comments):

Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל; Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, Dawlat Isrā'īl), officially the State of Israel, is a country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It is bordered by Lebanon in the north, Syria and Jordan in the east, and Egypt in the south-west.[1] Israel is also in control of the West Bank (here a footnote explaining that the Palestinian authority controls a part of the west bank, and the entire Gaza Strip), the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem (footnote explaining they were annexed, and are under Israeli law), not interntionally recognized as part of its territory. It covers an area of approximately 21,000 square kilometers and has a population of approximately seven million people.[2].
Israel is the world's only Jewish state although Israel's population includes citizens from many ethnic and religious backgrounds. The State of Israel was founded in 1948 as the result of the Zionist movement in the area that was the birthplace of the Jewish people (see Land of Israel). The Jews finally lost their independence in the area in 135AD (here a footnote explaining, in short, the fall of the kingdoms, and the last rebellion against the romans), but maintained a continuous physical presence in the region as well as a strong cultural and religious bond with it. Since its creation Israel has faced the struggle of the Arab Israeli conflict which has had tremendous effects on its society.
Israel is a parliamentary democracy consisting of legislative, executive and judicial branches. Israel has a vibrant cultural life, free press, and a highly technologically advanced economy. It is ranked 23rd out of 177 countries in the 2005 United Nations Human Development Index.

I know this version may seem a bit long/tedious, but I think it pretty much covers it. I do think the occupation should be mentioned, as it's extremely important to the current situation of Israel, and is almost unique in the world. okedem 14:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current short lead is the best. Lead like you proposed will be constantly changed. Think about the hundreds of anons as well as users who will change it compeltely. There shouldn't be so many edit-wars on a country's article lead, it isn't advisable and therefore there should be a lead with no controversial sentences. People entering will immediately see "west bank" and start defining it like they want with differnet refs to support it. Israel is more than that, it's just a country,the disputes can be outlined in the article itself history etc. Btw, Jews losing their indepedence in 135AD is also open to discussion, seeing as there were brief autonomies later on during the Persian invasion to the Byzantinne empire for example. Amoruso 20:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That may be, but I don't know what others think of it. I'm fine with the current one.
BTW, we really need to archive most of this page. If there are no objections, I'm going to archive the text up to this section (excluding this one). okedem 21:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would even possibly minimize it to this looking at many country leads :

Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info); Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل‎, Dawlat Isrā'īl), officially the State of Israel, is a country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. It is bordered by Lebanon in the north, Syria and Jordan in the east, and Egypt in the south-west[2] and has a population of over seven million people. Amoruso 21:27, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone. Noticed that someone has changed the lead to include the Freedom House claim of the oldest and only democracy in the Middle East, yet again. I don't want to edit war and I know that all here are working towards a simple lead. Would appreciate if one of you would change the lead to a minimal version that has consensus. While Amoruso's lead is short and to the point, I'm afraid that it is a bit misleading, since the West Bank lies between Israel and Jordan, the Golan Heights between Israel and Syria, and Gaza between Egypt and Israel. Now I know that you (Amoruso) not want to mention the occupied territories in the lead, and I will not insist on that. As a compromise, how about just paring it down to: "Israel (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל (help·info); Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic: دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل‎, Dawlat Isrā'īl), officially the State of Israel, is a country in Western Asia on the southeastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea, with a population of just over seven million people." Thanks for your time and cosideration. Tiamut 11:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just write "Israel is a country"? Look at any countrie's intro, do they look like what you've proposed? -- tasc wordsdeeds 11:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tiamut,
I think the whole Freedom House ratings, "only democracy" and all the stuff - should be removed.
About the borders - every country lead mentions the borders, and so Israel's should too. As you can see in my suggestion, I say we can mention the occupied territories. However, the territories do not change the facts of the borders - Israel does directly border Jordan on the east, and Egypt on the south-west, with or without the territories. Since the Gaza Strip, and at least some of the west bank are under the control of a political entity, with set borders, we can say that israel borders them. How about - "Jordan and the Palestinian Authority to the east, and Egypt and the PA (Gaza Strip) to the west"? I'm not sure of the current legal status of the PA, though, so I don't know if they can be mentioned there.
BTW, with the Golan Heights it doesn't make any difference - whether Israel returns them to Syria or not - it still borders Syria to the east (de facto - now, and de jure - according to the internationally recognized border). okedem 12:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you want it removed? Because it says something you don't like? --Shamir1 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you would have read a bit of my battles on this page (and looked at my userpage), instead of attacking, you'd see that I'm an Israeli, and something of a patriot. I've been trying to guard this article against attacks and keep it accurate for a while now, so don't accuse me of any anti-Israel bias.
I want it removed because I don't think it has a place in the lead. I don't think Israel's democracy should be judged according to its backwards neighbors. I don't think that being "the most liberal in the middle east" (or whatever) is something to be especially proud of - not a lot of competition here. I think Israel's democracy fares well when compared to other democracies, like western Europe, or the US, not just when compared to Egypt.
And I want it removed on the grounds of "choose your battles wisely". Such a statement would elicit neverending arguments and edit-wars, and really doesn't add much to the lead. I do think we should write about Israel being a liberal democracy, having a free press and all, but not "only".
Next time, please think carefully before attacking someone who's probably "on your side". okedem 21:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with most of what you've written Okedem. The point about Syria being especially valid. And I also am unsure about how to mention the PA. Accordingly, I drop my objection to Amoruso's short lead, though a mention of the occupied territories would be nice. We can expand on the details inside the article. Tiamut 16:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why should the Freedom house ratings be removed? They're a recognized NGO, just like Amnesty or any other one and it's a valid claim that Israel is the only Democracy in the middle east. To be the only democracy in any given region these days is certainly a notable claim that should be included. -- Chabuk 16:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please see the most recent archive for a review of the debate surrounding that issue. Turkey and Lebanon are both considered by many to be parliamentary democracies and both are also considered by many to be in the Middle East. One Freedom House opinion does not make it universally so. Inclusion of such a controversial statement in the lead would have to be accompanied by the contrary view, thus complicating the lead unnecessarily. Feel free to include the quote somewhere in the article. I will add the contrary view to meet NPOV requirements there after you have done so. Tiamut 16:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're not getting it. Wikipedia uses Freedom House, and this is Wikipedia. How is it controversial when it says according to Freedom House? Very stubborn. Lebanon and Turkey as democracies is VERY controversial, and freedom house does not consider them to be a liberal democracy.--Shamir1 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone please change the lead to the shorter version for now and shift the contentious material down to another section? I had to take out this quote just now: "Its citizens are the only ones in the Middle East whose political rights and civil liberties (freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of press) are comparable to the that of the United States and the West.[3][4]" The references cited do not even prove the claim made. Who keeps authoring this stuff? And to administrators, I would like to second Okedem's motion that the page be semi-protected. Reaching consensus is difficult enough among registered editors without having anonymous others inserting their own POV whenever they feel like it and that goes for supporters and detractors of Israel alike.
User:Shamir1 has reinserted the material I deleted above, under the heading that "someone does not know how to do basic research." I would like to invite him to discuss such changes here. Findings of the Israel Democracy Institute [1], directly contradict the study done by Freedom House. For example, they note that: "Israel is mainly a formal democracy that has not yet acquired the characteristics of a substantive democracy," and that "Protection of human rights in Israel is poor; there is serious political and economic discrimination against the Arab minority; there is much less freedom of religion than in other democracies; and the socioeconomic inequality indicator is among the highest in the sample." Also, regarding stability and social cohesion, "Israel ranks at the bottom of the list in all indicators. The turnover in governments is more frequent than in other democracies, and only India ranks lower in social tensions and rifts between the various segments of society." Considering this is an Israeli non-profit dedicated to studying Israeli democracy, I would argue that it is a more authoritative source. As I said earlier, any insistence on including the Freedom House findings would have to be balanced by this contrarian view. Should this be included in the lead? Or should it be moved down to a section where it can discussed in full? Thanks. Tiamut 08:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can you compare a private organization to highly-reliable survey of every nation in the worl?--a survey that Wikipedia uses. There is controversy behind every sentence in the world. Getting some little quote doesnt change the findings of Freedom House. --Shamir1 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Unsurprisingly, this entire discussion has happened before, and that very source has been cherry-picked before. The reason it is used it because it is, without a doubt, the only reputable source that indicates that Israel is not a democracy; and even then, it does not say that. Rather, the 2003 study, which is getting rather old, says that "Israeli democracy, as reflected by comparative quantitative indicators, is primarily a formal democracy that features a democratic institutional system, entrusted with the functioning of the regime and performing state democratic functions. From this perspective, Israel's status is relatively good compared with other democracies, especially its high level of representativeness and the high score it receives regarding the restrictions placed on the executive branch of government." In other words, a mix, like many democracies. Jayjg (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]


I removed the claim, since the sources weren't sufficient - one didn't really support the claim, and the other two were from wikipedia itself, which can't serve as a source. This page: [2], however, can serve as a source for a claim of "free press". How about we add that claim with this source - "Israel enjoys a vibrant cultural life, free press (the source comes here) and has a technologically advanced economy"?
Shamir1 - Everything about Israel is complex, we can't discuss all the intricacies in the lead. Let's keep it simple, with easy to prove claims, nothing too complicated. okedem 09:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Okedem. Thanks for removing that claim. I appreciate your attempt to play mediator here. Regarding your suggestion to include a line on the free press with the source you cited in the lead, I can't really agree (unfortuantely). The source itself makes clear that press freedom is nonexistent in the territories. Other sources like IPI [3] note complaints by Foreign Press Association members regarding lack of access to Gaza, the fatal shooting of documentary filmmaker James Miller in 2003 and Majdi Arabeid in 2005, and concludes with this sentence: "Although the Israeli media operates in a more open press freedom environment than its regional neighbours, investigative reporting or publication of criticism related to the military and security forces is disapproved of by the authorities, and all articles concerning these topics may be subject to military censorship." In their overview page, they place Lebanon and Israel in the same genral category however, noting that: "In countries like Israel and Lebanon, most publications and broadcasters are privately owned and journalists are usually free to carry out their work without state interference." [4] And you and I were both here during the war with Lebanon. Didn't you notice the strict controls on media reporting then? I remember at one point, when missiles hit Haifa and a woman from the staff behind the camera gasped, the correspondent himself on camera said, "Shhh! Shhh!" It was as though they had orders to minimize the impact of the attacks. Never once did we know exactly where the missiles were landing, for reasons of "national security." I don't know about you, but it pissed me off. I would end up calling all my relatives located in a general region to see if they were okay. Phone lines would get tied up because everyone else was doing the same. But enough of that. The point is I thought we agreed that a simple lead would be best and that we would put the other points where there are sourced variances of opinion in the body. Thanks again. Tiamut 10:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What a mediator. --Shamir1 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I support free press, reporting on the missiles hit locations during the very attack is incredibly stupid and should be banned - The Hizbollah use those reports to better their aim - instead of needing a network of spies or something, they can just turn on the TV. I mean, really, the press wouldn't be any less free if they would report the hits with an hour's delay, and that would at least prevent them from inadvertently helping the enemy. Does "free press" include reporting on military plans? Troop movements? Patrol schedules?
About press freedom in the territories - this again complicates matters, as with all other claims - of human rights, democracy, etc. - There's a difference between Israel proper (which has a good human rights record, free press, etc.), and the territories, which are under military rule, and accordingly, enjoy few freedoms. If one claims "Israel" is only within the 1967 lines, than Israel has a very free press - one can't have it both ways. okedem 10:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your reasoning. Regardless, if the free press claim should go in the lead, it needs a qualifier specifying that the case is different as regards Israeli actions in the occupied territories, and that there are restrictions imposed on the reporting of issues of national security. Alternatively, it could be kept out of the lead (so as to keep it simple) and be discussed in its full context in the article. Tiamut 12:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We can add a footnote explaining that, if you'd like, but I don't think the qualifier should be in the lead itself. I know there are problems with reporting from within the territories, though I very often see articles about them, and from within them (I read Ha'aretz). I doubt very much that the security restrictions are in any way unique to Israel. Would you say that the US doesn't have a free press because of Iraq's current situation?
By the way, I looked at the France article, and thought - how about we add something like this: "Its main ideals are expressed in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel."? Might cause more arguments, though. okedem 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the freedom of press information in a neutral and properly sourced way; I'm not anticipating any issues with it. Jayjg (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The biased claims are not valid when considering Wikipedia. This is about Israel, an intro stating what makes it different and unique, its not about Zionism and the PA, those can be written else in the article but not the intro. --Shamir1 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Italics in Hebrew

A guideline on whether or not to italicize Hebrew (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting)#Italics in Cyrillic and Greek characters. - - Evv 16:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Italics

why is this section:

the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel the full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions, but many refused.

under 2.5 War of Independence and migration in italics? for such a big claim there should be a citation as well. i am NOT removing it but i am currently changing it from italics to reg. type. italics are a vision based way to denote importance ore truth OVER something else. it reads like a "gotcha" moment over arabs. if its a quote one should use quotes.

It was in italics since it was a quote, which was rather easy to discover, since you can just look it up in the original text of the declaration. It's now in qoutes, and in italics, just so it's easier to differentiate from the bulk of the text. okedem 21:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Request for semi-protection

If any Admin can hear me...

Please reinstate the semi-protection on the Israel article. The amount of vandalism acts here is ridicules.

okedem 11:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Education

I don't see any section in the article talking about education in israel. Someone should add a sction explaining moreabout education, educated people, graduate student and so on.

  1. ^ http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/facts%20about%20israel/land/
  2. ^ "CBS, STATISTICAL ABSTRACT OF ISRAEL 2006" (PDF). Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics. 2006. Retrieved 2006-10-02.
  3. ^ [http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=43
  4. ^ [5]